Author Topic: Trireme. Asking for help (Read 2554 times)

Elmoth · « **on:** 06 November 2018, 10:33:50 »

Hello,

I am here because I suck a lot at this kind of thing. I have a concept, but do not know if it is feasible. Probably yes, but I do not know where to start.

1. I am working on a system based on classical Greece and the peloponessian/persian wars. System has 4 planets and tries to mimic Peloponesse, Boetia (Athens + Thebes), the Aegean islands and mount olympus/oracle of delphi

2. It will be modelled as a deep peroiphery region with sporadic contact with the IS and periphery. They will have mechs, but they will be using old models AND building them in an artisan way, so no mass production. less than 2 regiment's worth of mechs in the whole warlike mess.

And here is my thing, I need to design a galley. A trireme, actually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme
the idea will be to have them be monitors, with limited transport capacity (1 mech?) but have significant combat capacity. At least against other ships. Fights between triremes should be a thing in the system.

Being fairly incognissant in spacecraft in the BT universe besides the most absolutely common mech dropships, I have no idea where to start here :(

how I envision it:
- No need to be able to attach to a jumpship (can be a monitor?)
- A crew of around 20.
- Fairly fast.
- Able to make sharp turns.
- Low fuel, so it cannot operate far from a base for very long periods.
- Close range weaponry. Mostly forward weaponry.
- Carries a platoon of marines. Boarding actions are fairly frequent.
- Cargo capacity of around 1 mech or 2-3 light vehicles.
- Atmospheric entry capacity preferred but not absolutely required.
- Not very vulnerable to aerospace fighters, since this is a ship that needs to be the big fish in the Aegean pond.
- A major power in system would have around 20 (to represent the 200-ish galleys of Athens in the Peloponnese war).

Any help on ideas here? As said, I have no idea on aerospace combat in BT, so no idea where to start other than to take a Leopard and reduce everything to one third.

Thanks in advance :)

Cheers,
Xavi

Vehrec · « **Reply #1 on:** 06 November 2018, 12:10:10 »

Sounds like an Aerodyne dropship, with heavy forward weapons (ramming things directly's out of the question), but you're probably gonna need to adapt an existing model. The basic Leopard might be a good choice, but will need upgraded weapons and armor-thankfully, the Leopart also starts with 900 tons of cargo capacity on it's 1700 ton frame, so you've got space for turning it into a PWS.

Alsadius · « **Reply #2 on:** 06 November 2018, 12:23:42 »

Definitely, a DropShip is what you want here. Probably one with a fair bit of thrust, but fairly small by BT standards. As Vehrec says, a couple thousand tons is likely a good size for you. Aerodyne designs basically force the heaviest guns to be forward-facing, which also leads to trireme-style tactics.

Luciora · « **Reply #3 on:** 06 November 2018, 12:39:42 »

How about a low tech Claymore?

Daryk · « **Reply #4 on:** 06 November 2018, 20:03:34 »

Just pull the AC/5s and AC/2 (and their ammo) from an Avenger and stuff in a 'mech cubicle and infantry bay.

Elmoth · « **Reply #5 on:** 07 November 2018, 06:17:24 »

OK; as suggested I looked into the Avenger and Leopard (as the basic Aerodyne).

AVENGER
1400tn. 50m/42m/18m.15 crew
Struct Integrity: 12. Armor: 23/20/18.
93tn cargo (bombs or 15 mnarines)
3.5G/5.5G
160tn fuel (87 days)
2 PPC, 4 LMR20, 2 LL, 8 ML, 6 AC5, 1 AC2

LEOPARD
1900tn. 66m/52m/23m. 9 crew
Struct Integrity 7. Armor: 14/13/10.
600tn cargo
2G/3G
137tn fuel (75 days)
2 PPC, 3 LMR20, 5 LL, 7 ML

Given those number I took my màgic hat and looking at the wind and the above numbers I pulled this thing from it (so no idea idf the numbers are even semi-aceptable):

TRIREME
1000tn (1200?). 55m/20m + 20 wings /18m. 15 crew
Struct Integrity 8. Armor: 26/14/16.
150tn of cargo; generally a marine platoon and sometimes a light or medium mech
3.5G/5.5G
???? tn fuel (Say, 55 days for a trip to the border of the System and back before reloading)
Front: 6 AC10, LRM20, 8 ML
Side/Back: 4 ML (in rotary turrets)
Cost in cbills: ????

I would like for the Tireme to be able to ram, but you said this is anathema :( Is there an option to allow for that?

I would like to know if this could be built with an ICE engine, even i fit cuts into performance days. The Aegean system is supposed to have fusion tecnology, but most of them will be imported (like those used in mech construction) or be really old, and I want them to be able to build new Triremes on a regular basis.

Any ways to make it extra manoeuverable?

As you can see I tried to put most weapons up front and límit the weaponry to really basic designs. Not even PPC around. ML can be changed to AC5 if necessary. The idea is to have a ship that is fast, manoeuverable, has a good alpha strike up front and if caught sideways will have a hard time. Being able to ram would be a bonus.

Iron Grenadier · « **Reply #6 on:** 07 November 2018, 06:33:32 »

How about and Aurora?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Aurora

Can customize as needed with it's modular cargo bays.

The Gaajian also sounds like it might be something to look at -
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gaajian

UnLimiTeD · « **Reply #7 on:** 07 November 2018, 14:48:48 »

Space is... space.
Everything is as maneuverable as it's engines allow. Bigger engines mean being able to turn faster.
You could go for both aerodyne and spheroid depending on how forward facing you want to be, but indeed aerodyne sounds better.
Regarding survivability against aerospace fighters, you'll need ARMOR.
I'd recommend going for at least 20 SI if you don't have access to advanced composites like HFA, because you definitely shouldn't go below ~6 tons per facing.

Ramming is possible, but it'll usually result in everybody dying. If you want boarding actions, you'll need small craft to do it, unless you only want to board enemies with their engines shot.
Regarding crew carried: If you want to transport troops for longer distances, it would be a nice thing to allocate them actual quarters. Any deployment above a week I wouldn't stuff infantry into a cargo hold. They won't be in fighting shape. ^-^

Daryk · « **Reply #8 on:** 07 November 2018, 16:48:13 »

ICE are straight out for anything on the interplanetary scale. You MIGHT be able to get away with it on a single planet, though.

Elmoth · « **Reply #9 on:** 08 November 2018, 06:42:33 »

The Aurora seems too good for what I intend. In a sense I am looking at fleets of patrol boats jockeying around, not a ship that laughs in the face of the Leopard as a good and efficient transport ship. The Gaajian is a much better suggestion, thanks :) maybe somehwat too well armed? And armoured

What about armor?
I see that the Gaajian has 208/108/172 armor values, while the Avenger (fluffed as a well armed front line fighter dropship) has 23/20/18. Wow! Quite a difference here! That leaves me quite puzzled. One can barely resist 2 PPC, while the other laughs at most mech scale weapons. ???

The Gaajian looks quite similar to what I was trying to do, even if I would reduce its size and capabilities somewhat. What kind of cost would such a vessel have? 4G as "safe speed" is quite something. Poor crew ;D

AldanFerrox · « **Reply #10 on:** 08 November 2018, 09:57:07 »

Quote from: Elmoth on 08 November 2018, 06:42:33

What about armor?
I see that the Gaajian has 208/108/172 armor values, while the Avenger (fluffed as a well armed front line fighter dropship) has 23/20/18. Wow! Quite a difference here! That leaves me quite puzzled. One can barely resist 2 PPC, while the other laughs at most mech scale weapons. ???

The numbers on Sarna are in capital scale, despite being labeled as standard scale. TRO 3057 Revised says that the armor for the Avenger is 230/203/180 (which equals to 48 tons of standard armor).

Daryk · « **Reply #11 on:** 08 November 2018, 18:45:36 »

I just verified you can get an Avenger (at 1400 tons) up to 8/12 with a 'Mech cubicle, one platoon (foot) infantry bay, 6 Large lasers (pairs in the three forward facing arcs), 1 LRM-20 (with 30 shots), 17 Medium Lasers (3 in each arc save Aft, with only 2) and a bit over 50 days' endurance at 1G counting fuel and consumables. Also, it ups the armor slightly so an AC/20 won't threshold the aft armor. The crew is only 9, but it can carry 30 in bay quarters (two for the 'Mech, 28 for the infantry). I gave the Captain an Officer Stateroom for 10 tons, but the rest of the crew Steerage for 5 tons each.

Elmoth · « **Reply #12 on:** 09 November 2018, 16:17:28 »

Quote from: Daryk on 08 November 2018, 18:45:36

I just verified you can get an Avenger (at 1400 tons) up to 8/12 with a 'Mech cubicle, one platoon (foot) infantry bay, 6 Large lasers (pairs in the three forward facing arcs), 1 LRM-20 (with 30 shots), 17 Medium Lasers (3 in each arc save Aft, with only 2) and a bit over 50 days' endurance at 1G counting fuel and consumables. Also, it ups the armor slightly so an AC/20 won't threshold the aft armor. The crew is only 9, but it can carry 30 in bay quarters (two for the 'Mech, 28 for the infantry). I gave the Captain an Officer Stateroom for 10 tons, but the rest of the crew Steerage for 5 tons each.

Amazing! Thanks a lot :D What would the armor values look like?

Daryk · « **Reply #13 on:** 09 November 2018, 16:27:20 »

The armor is:
225 Nose
200 Wings
191 Aft

And I gave it 12 SI.

Fuel is 100 tons (with 2 more for pumps), spares are 14 (1%), and consumables are 74.5. Infantry in bay quarters burn through consumables like nobody's business. If the 'mech is less than 100 tons, you could stuff more consumables around it at the cost of not being able to deploy it except as cargo until the extra has been eaten through.

Elmoth · « **Reply #14 on:** 09 November 2018, 16:54:15 »

I can imagine the mech emerging from his craddle with broccoli all over its head.
Yeah, I have a daughter.
How many bananas do you need to trip a mech?

Daryk · « **Reply #15 on:** 09 November 2018, 17:00:15 »

Just one... on the pedals in the cockpit... ;)

UnLimiTeD · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 November 2018, 20:43:37 »

Keep in mind bay quarters are for transport. If you intend longer patrols, don't have only those for your infantry.
If I remember correctly, everything with thrust 5/8 or over gets free high-G harnesses and other related equipment for the crews, so that is worth a consideration.

Daryk · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 November 2018, 20:51:33 »

The break even point for bay quarters vs. those capable of longer duration support is about 90 days. I think bay quarters fit the OP's aesthetic.

Elmoth · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 November 2018, 04:26:13 »

90 days should be plenty. Tiremes are supposed to be combat and patrol ships, not long duration exploration ships. I guess most of the time their deployment time will be around 1 month.

I will be using the converted Avenger that Daryk put forward. it has effectively 2 cargo spaces (mech + infantry), so a few might carry a pair of light ASF instead of marines but it is basically a warship with low cargo capacity. I like it :)

Tanks everybody!

Daryk · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 November 2018, 06:30:29 »

Glad I could help! :thumbsup: