Fleet size right before Invasion

[Sjhernan3060]

I was curious about which clans had the top 3 largest fleets and smallest fleets at the beginning of revival. If this has been covered elsewhere please let me know! My guess on

largest:

1 ravens
2 diamond sharks?
3 nova cat

Smallest

1 mandrill
2 blood spirit
3 horses?

[Frabby]

Iirc the Jade Falcons were noted to field the largest WarShip contingent of any Clan in the Inner Sphere during the Clan Invasion.
The Ravens and Cloud Cobras are both aerospace-centric, but rather small Clans overall.

[Weirdo]

It's completely impossible to tell. The earliest hard fleet numbers we got are from the Field Manual series, so 3057ish at the earliest, with no way of knowing about any losses or gains prior to that.

[Wotan]

I'm not aware of any losses between 3050 and 3057. Warship battles are very rare and in that time the IS had nothing to stand against the clan fleets. Heavy inner-clan fights are also rare in that era - even more to include warships. So the numbers we have from 3057 should nearly match the status of 3050.
That said i think the massive warship fleet of clan Jade Falcon in their sourcebook was later reduced. Many of that ships are borrowed from the Snow Ravens.

And btw i'm always surprised how many warships the Smoke Jaguars field. They had an impressive fleet at their time.

[Minchandre]

Nevermind; I failed to read properly.  Can you delete messages on this board?

[snewsom2997]

IIRC the Jade Falcons rented a bunch of ships from the Ravens.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, most of the Aegis were rented from the Ravens though I do not think we were ever told what they got in exchange.

I think we can agree #1 would be the Ravens, #2 would be the Sharks because of merchant escorts . . .

Honorable mention goes to . . .
Jade Falcons, Wolf Clan, Smoke Jaguars, Nova Cats, IMO Vipers to survive, Adders after Burrock absorption

Smallest?  Smallest has to be the Blood Spirits, they traded away their limited ship numbers for more mechs.  Then I would say the Fire Mandrills, Horses, Hellions, and Cobras.

Jags had numbers, but it was mostly a patrol fleet . . . they had a few large ships (Texas, Potemkin, Liberator, McKenna, & Black Lion) and lots of small vessels- they built the Fredasa after all.

[Sjhernan3060]

Yeah, most of the Aegis were rented from the Ravens though I do not think we were ever told what they got in exchange.

I think we can agree #1 would be the Ravens, #2 would be the Sharks because of merchant escorts . . .

Honorable mention goes to . . .
Jade Falcons, Wolf Clan, Smoke Jaguars, Nova Cats, IMO Vipers to survive, Adders after Burrock absorption

Smallest?  Smallest has to be the Blood Spirits, they traded away their limited ship numbers for more mechs.  Then I would say the Fire Mandrills, Horses, Hellions, and Cobras.

Jags had numbers, but it was mostly a patrol fleet . . . they had a few large ships (Texas, Potemkin, Liberator, McKenna, & Black Lion) and lots of small vessels- they built the Fredasa after all.

While reading the source books again ( which is a real pleasure btw) the phrase  “ .... warships were alotted to “ various clans came up. I took this to mean that each clan started life with a set number of warships which I think must have been 7 or 8 and then fleet sizes grew via trials?

[Colt Ward]

Probably, sort of along the same lines with how the Clans divided up the other military material (mechs, armor & DS) as well as the supporting troops . . . you know the trigger pullers who failed to make the 800 cut.

[Stormlion1]

Something to think about is each Clan had a small cached warship fleet that they controlled but didnt use. Either for lack interest or the fact they couldnt actually reactivate them for use due to lack of facilitys. The Jade Falcons may have had more warships under there control but were unable to use them without getting outside help.

[Wotan]

It is hard to believe that the invading clans hadn't activated all of their cached warships in preparation of Operation Revival. Just to show the IS the might of Kerenskys heirs. Not that they need them.
At all it is surprising that they used that much warships as they already know the IS will not have one and that their warships will see no action. But with the fact in place they used their warships, they should use all of them - even more so when they have to lend additional ones from other clans.

That story arc was written when the lore of warships and exact numbers weren't established. So this is inconsistent.

[Ruger]

It is hard to believe that the invading clans hadn't activated all of their cached warships in preparation of Operation Revival. Just to show the IS the might of Kerenskys heirs. Not that they need them.
At all it is surprising that they used that much warships as they already know the IS will not have one and that their warships will see no action. But with the fact in place they used their warships, they should use all of them - even more so when they have to lend additional ones from other clans.

That story arc was written when the lore of warships and exact numbers weren't established. So this is inconsistent.

What's likely easier, possibly less resource intensive, and less time consuming? Renting/leasing other, already activated WarShips for a few trade goods, or trying to activate centuries old WarShips that haven't been opened up, much less powered up in several of those centuries?

Ruger

[Sjhernan3060]

What's likely easier, possibly less resource intensive, and less time consuming? Renting/leasing other, already activated WarShips for a few trade goods, or trying to activate centuries old WarShips that haven't been opened up, much less powered up in several of those centuries?

Ruger

Also with the the exception of the adders the clans likely would have expected to be done with the IS by the time their moth balled ships were reactivated!

[Stormlion1]

And in the end having the warships and not needing them is a better choice than not having them and then needing them. But also, warships make good command and control ships as well as good transports for the invasion. The other part is the Clans may not have had the jumpships available without wrecking the Homeworlds trade and transport needs. Plus any excess jumpships would be needed for the fleet train to bring up supplies and reinforcements from the Homeworlds.

[Colt Ward]

Wotan, Falcons & Wolves both have warships they did not use- namely their own home built.  Look at what happened with the Raven/Bear project for the Conq/Levi . . . Ravens dropped the project when they were not going to make the cut and left the Bears hanging on to a pair of partial hulls.  The Ravens did not even finish their Kimi-Conq conversions to rent like they did on the Aegis.

You are right in that the Invaders had a short fall in shipping, but considering several Home Clans sat on their transports (Potemkins, Volgas, etc) its down to a lack of expectation and planning . . . for some.

[Sjhernan3060]

What's likely easier, possibly less resource intensive, and less time consuming? Renting/leasing other, already activated WarShips for a few trade goods, or trying to activate centuries old WarShips that haven't been opened up, much less powered up in several of those centuries?

Ruger

Right especially with the ardent crusaders louding declaring that the invasion would be over in no time flat I can see that leasing warships from the home clans would be a smart play.

Also after those ardent crusaders like nova cats and jags in particular got pummeled they would have never had the resources to reactivate cached ships. Which makes me think that more “ lost” warships are chilling in the Kerensky cluster then we know of

[Frabby]

Having WarShips is one thing. I imagine they're resource hogs and a standing WarShip fleet is an expensive endeavor. To be worth the cost, they have to serve in some useful capacity.
Naval battles are pretty rare to begin with, and fewer yet include WarShips.
Without going into detail, I reckon under typical Clan zellbrigen doctrine, it makes much more sense to invest in DropShips and aerospace fighters than sink resources into WarShips.

On this premise it makes sense to assume much of the Clans' combined WarShip fleet exists in mothballs somewhere.
Also, not all Exodus WarShips are neccessarily assigned to a specific Clan. We know of at least two (the McKenna's Pride and the Prinz Eugen) which are jointly held by all Clans. There may be more. Maybe the ilClan or the Great Conclave have a cache of unassigned assets that they can assign to a given Clan for specific purposes. Perhaps there is even something like a rotation of WarShips among the Clans, overseen by the Grand Conclave.

The other thing is bringing your WarShips to the Inner Sphere on the eve of the Clan Invasion.
Sure, it's something of a vanity thing. The Jade Falcons meant serious business and brought something in the region of 20, with intimidation being probably part of the concept. The Wolves had a different idea of what they'd be facing and brought a whooping two.

Beyond bragging rights, WarShips don't actually offer anything and between the information provided by the Smoke Jaguars (doctored or no) and Wolf's Dragoons' reports the Clans must have known this.
The WarShips aren't even required as command ships: The writeup for the bog-standard Invader JumpShip and also the Monolith which is much more common among the Clans than it is in the Inner Sphere are noted for their C3 capabilities, "enough to coordinate a task force" in the former case and the latter's systems are supposed to be even better. Both are common vessels in all toumans.
On top of that, many DropShips on the available TOEs are specifically designated as "Command" Overlords or "Command" Unions. (Not going into wether these were misreported Union-C and Overlord-C here.)

[Colt Ward]

One other thing to consider, is warship Trials do not go to total destruction- one book goes to point out the terms are a lot like 'first hull breach' or whatever.

[marauder648]

One other thing to consider, is warship Trials do not go to total destruction- one book goes to point out the terms are a lot like 'first hull breach' or whatever.

Aye its like first hull breech or first X number of hits or something. Basically because WarShips are nigh on irreplaceable within the Homeworlds and are a huge strategic resource for their Clans and simply are not risked very often.

I like the idea that even following Turtle Bay, the Clans would be using their WarShips as simple haulage barges to carry supplies to and from the Homeworlds. It puts those huge SLDF era cargo spaces to good use.

RE fleet sizes the Horses have one of the smallest fleets, despite having 3 Potemkins but those ships are huge, super specialised and expensive to man and run so probably sit in orbit over Niles in a state of mothballs 9/10 times. This reduces them to a Cameron a Congress and 3 Lola III's. There's also a Volga and Carrack but these are probably used purely as transports.

[Sjhernan3060]

Aye its like first hull breech or first X number of hits or something. Basically because WarShips are nigh on irreplaceable within the Homeworlds and are a huge strategic resource for their Clans and simply are not risked very often.

I like the idea that even following Turtle Bay, the Clans would be using their WarShips as simple haulage barges to carry supplies to and from the Homeworlds. It puts those huge SLDF era cargo spaces to good use.

RE fleet sizes the Horses have one of the smallest fleets, despite having 3 Potemkins but those ships are huge, super specialised and expensive to man and run so probably sit in orbit over Niles in a state of mothballs 9/10 times. This reduces them to a Cameron a Congress and 3 Lola III's. There's also a Volga and Carrack but these are probably used purely as transports.

The horses had an another small naval
Cache which they had to leave behind which the stone lions inherited

[Sjhernan3060]

Iirc the Jade Falcons were noted to field the largest WarShip contingent of any Clan in the Inner Sphere during the Clan Invasion.
The Ravens and Cloud Cobras are both aerospace-centric, but rather small Clans overall.

What did the ravens get from the warship lease program?

[Colt Ward]

They gave the Falcons some Aegis to operate . . . and got headaches in return.

[Sjhernan3060]

They gave the Falcons some Aegis to operate . . . and got headaches in return.

Lol let me rephrase what were they supposed to get? A big junk of the raw materials from the OZ?

[Colt Ward]

We never hear afaik and its not like when the Bears ended up with a lot of SIE after handing territory over to the Sharks.

[Hellraiser]

Ravens hands down, they had 40 Warships (3 Battleships & legions of Cruisers)  v/s the next Largest I think was like 28.

Falcons have a large fleet, but, yes, they rented 2 Stars I believe, 10 Warships, from the Ravens.

As for what they Raven's got out of it, who knows, but likely resources from Falcon worlds in the Homeworlds to start & maybe from the OZ as the invasion progressed.


#2/3 sized fleets.

Basically anyone that was an Invader had a decent fleet,  Falcons, Wolves, Sharks, & Cats were significant in size.
Vipers & Jags IIRC were not quite as large.  Mid Teens v/s Upper Teens/Twenties.
Bears were smallest IIRC but eventually had the largest single ships with 3 of their uber dreadnoughts but that is a decade later.


Of the Home clans the Adders eventually end up in 2nd place I think but that is the combined fleets of Adder/Burrock to get that big & its also almost a decade later.

[Alan Grant]

FM: Warden Clans page 121. From the Falcons, the Ravens got trade concessions, genetic material and technical knowledge... oh and Hellgate.

At the time the Falcons had recently taken Hellgate from the Vipers and they offered it to the Ravens in exchange for a portion of their fleet. The Vipers and Ravens had a longtime feud going so twisting that knife was appealing.

According to Warriors of Kerensky page 91 the Ravens made considerable profits contracting transports and escorts, which boosted their reputation among the Clans.

Both sources and others make it clear that the Ravens contracted out warships (one source says almost a third of their fleet, another source says a quarter of their fleet, but also many transports vessels (e.g. jumpships)).

[Colt Ward]

Which is why the Scorpions twiddling their thumbs in the Home Worlds with all those Potemkins makes no sense- if no other Invader asked, the Sharks should have been trying to borrow them to ship bulk quantities.

[Sjhernan3060]

Which is why the Scorpions twiddling their thumbs in the Home Worlds with all those Potemkins makes no sense- if no other Invader asked, the Sharks should have been trying to borrow them to ship bulk quantities.

Or the horses or mandrills!

[Colt Ward]

They had one . . . the Scorpions had 4 or 5, which is a very different story IMO.

Think of the resource and genetics claims they could have made by renting that many dropship collars- especially after Leo found his fellow Crusaders were being shown up by Ulric.  Scorpions insist their ASF travels with the Potemkins as part of the covering force, and then they would have been able to expose their pilots to IS fighting- which would have been enviable at the time.

[marauder648]

Yeah the Scorps having so many Potemkins makes little sense considering they're meant to be a resource poor Clan with one of the smaller toumans. They could probably transport their whole military on like 2 Potemkins if they loaded them up with Overlord C's.