Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle  (Read 6538 times)

Moonsword

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Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« on: 19 December 2011, 19:03:46 »
Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle

Covering a request this week, we're looking at the Marksman Artillery Vehicle.  (This is not to be confused with the M1 series Marksman tank, which will be covered after the turning of the year.)  Introduced during the Star League but unpopular due to its limited ability to engage enemies at close range - a problem that was later discovered to be the fault of poor cooling for the targeting computer - it was originally conceived of as a variant of the smaller Thor.  The weight and recoil of the main gun forced a rethink on that idea, leading to a brand new chassis that wasn't even all that popular during the Succession Wars.  An autocannon-armed variant did emerge during the fighting in the Pentagon Worlds as mentioned and described by Historical: Operation KLONDIKE, but the real revamp of the design was finally issued by the Lyran Alliance during the Jihad, then put into production on Melissia as described by TRO3050 Upgrades after the merger or partnership with CRI.  Along the way, the problems with the targeting computer were finally and definitively addressed.

At 65 tons, the Marksman falls squarely into the heavy vehicle category, and with a Magna 260 fusion engine of the same brand used for centuries in the Thunderbolt, its tracked chassis manages the respectable speed of 64 kph.  The armor is, in all honesty, kind of oddball and not terribly heavy.  7 tons of ferro-fibrous might have been passable on an artillery vehicle but the decision to arrange it 49/19/19/19 is a bit screwball.  At the very least, bringing it up to 20 points on the sides, rear, and turret - enough to resist four clusters from counter-battery fire without it going internal - would have been handy.  The point of this exercise is the forward-mounted Sniper artillery piece.  Although it lacks the range and compactness of the Thumper or the sheer firepower of the Long Tom, the Sniper is reasonably powerful and handy, with the ability to carry either a ton each for 10 shots of two different ammo types or 20 shots of a single type.  The turreted point-defense gun is a RAMTech 500 large laser, a reasonably accurate and powerful weapon for an artillery vehicle, especially if an entire battery (read: lance) opens fire on someone at once.  Overall, while it's slower than the Thor, I do think the Marksman would have been a useful fire support unit, but the older, faster design was apparently more in tune with SLDF artillery doctrine, and given the way the Thumper has become more powerful under Tactical Operations, I can see what they're getting at.

During the Pentagon Civil War, many ex-SLDF Marksmen fell on hard times and were refit as more conventional units.  Retaining their fusion engine and the handy, capable RAMTech, their Sniper tube and armor were stripped off.  The armor was increased to 8.5 tons of standard plate, arranged 54/20/20/22, a significant increase in survival the Hetzer reboot is going to need.  That's right, I said Hetzer.  There's a class 20 autocannon fixed forward, fed by three tons of ammo, and it's supplemented by 2 RL15s and 3 RL10s, though they're not as good as the later Marian models.  Overall, while it's not as tough as the Rommel and the lack of a turreted autocannon hurts, as an assault gun operated like the bigger, meaner Hetzer it is, the Marksman (AC) variant is a respectable low tech refit.

In the fires of the Jihad, even as some designs fought their last battles, others were resurrected to go to war again.  Such was the fate of the Marksman, new construction beginning on Melissia by Grumman/CRI.  Powered by a light fusion engine, this model apparently uses light ferro-fibrous armor.  The main gun is the same, but a point of armor was added to the turret and front of the design, bringing them to 50 and 20 points respectively.  In the turret, a light PPC replaces the large laser, while the front has a pair of heavy machine guns and each side has one, with two full tons of HMG ammo.  Although this is a lot of infantry killing power, it's useless beyond two hexes, and frankly, if you're going to invest four tons in machine guns, you might as well just put eight LMGs on.  Sure, you'll lose some firepower, but the crit-seeking and range will more than make up for it.  You'll also actually be able to do a bit more inside the LPPC's minimums.  Still, if infantry was a concern for your artillery, this is going to solve that problem.

Using the Marksman is fairly simple: Find an area with several firing positions reasonably close to each other (the better to spread a battery out and also provide room to move around in case someone starts lobbing counter-battery fire back), then park there and let the steel rain fly.  Copperheads aren't really that great on the Sniper but they can be useful, while HE rounds are always great for both making someone stop camping out and suppressing battle armor.  (And by suppress, I mean terminate with extreme prejudice.)  Bring a friend, something short-ranged and violent, and let them deal with any uninvited guests long enough to turn and blast someone with direct-fire Snipers and a lance's worth of piping hot photons.  The Pentagon model is an ambush predator or, against the refit dredged up refuse of the Pentagon powers, a center of your line attacker.  Wait for someone to get into AC range and pound them.  If it's a juicy target, give them a nice pounding with the rockets, too.

One of the best answers to artillery is artillery of your own, forcing the opposing artillery to either risk shelling or move.  While off-board artillery may be out of reach of each other, on-board artillery support almost never is, and when it is, it's generally because you're using Arrows.  You can also try suppressing them rather more permanently with aerospace attack but given the kind of flak an artillery battery can answer you with, that's a risky proposition if you get to lower altitudes.  The other popular answer is hunter-killer units, something a Marksman is better advised to engage by turning the artillery on it than just relying on its laser, PPC, or HMGs.  Fast-moving, hard-hitting cavalry mediums are your best bet - you want to find the target and still have enough firepower and armor to deal with the artillery and what might be hanging around to defend it.  Against the Pentagon refit, treat it like a bigger Hetzer: Either hit it from the flanks or stand off and disable it. Stepping in front of a class 20 autocannon at short range is one of those habits that gets MechWarriors killed.

References: The Master Unit List is an excellent first stop, but you may also want to look over the material on the BattleTech Wiki and gaze upon the work of the CamoSpecs artists.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #1 on: 19 December 2011, 20:04:52 »
Idly, what about VTOLs as anti-arty HKs?  They're fast, on the ground map, and don't have the "take any damage and throw a PSR" rule.  And their mobility compared to an ASF strike means they can circle around an artillery unit and nail it from different directions, preferably from behind if it's not turreted.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #2 on: 19 December 2011, 20:12:03 »
Idly, what about VTOLs as anti-arty HKs?  They're fast, on the ground map, and don't have the "take any damage and throw a PSR" rule.  And their mobility compared to an ASF strike means they can circle around an artillery unit and nail it from different directions, preferably from behind if it's not turreted.

Given the ease of hitting them inside 17 hexes w/ FLAK shots, I am not sure that is a wise plan.



Over all I like the design, the armor placement is questionable but its a solid unit.
I also like the Klondike downgrade.  But I'm not fond of the new LFE model.

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Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #3 on: 19 December 2011, 21:36:57 »
Given the ease of hitting them inside 17 hexes w/ FLAK shots, I am not sure that is a wise plan.

*waves hello with a Warrior H-7*

The entire Warrior series can stand off an plink, the H-7 with the AC/2 (or a lance of them) will need patience.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #4 on: 19 December 2011, 22:00:01 »
*waves hello with a Warrior H-7*

The entire Warrior series can stand off an plink, the H-7 with the AC/2 (or a lance of them) will need patience.

True, at that point you use the whole lance and hope for a good scatter roll.
Or call in a quick aero flight to wipe them out of the sky.

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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #5 on: 19 December 2011, 22:14:37 »
Well, the more the arty shoots at my helicopters, the less it's shooting at my 'Mechs.  There is that.  But that's more a general counter-artillery thing anyway, so back on topic.  I admit the assault-gun idea intrigues the pants off me, and the mix of rockets makes a great one-shot critseek pull against that AC20.  How's the armor profile on that one?
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Welshman

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #6 on: 19 December 2011, 22:54:28 »
A 4/6 artillery piece is going to have issues tracking a VTOL. The artillery piece is fixed forward, so the VTOL only has to get behind it. And if it does track the VTOL, it's not shooting at the VTOL's friends.

A fast VTOL, with 9 or greater hex range can win initiative, dart in, fire and dart out on the next turn. An Aeron or Cyrano can completely dominate and even a Yellow Jacket can threaten artillery.

The real issue is whatever is parked to protect the artillery. In the 3060 battles I fought I would often part a Demolisher II with a battery of Long Toms. Anyone who got close would have to deal with the Dems cluster and ultra AC fire.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #7 on: 20 December 2011, 01:43:52 »
Back them up with a LRM Carrier to deal with heli's, or something else cheep and anti-air

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #8 on: 20 December 2011, 02:56:11 »
LB-5X Vedette is cheap, and if your deploying a battery (read 3 lances, not one) part of the doctrine would be for a few bodyguard armors to be on hand.  A pair of those Vedettes would be just the thing.

As someone who plays artillery when I can draw it on servers . . . I love the Marksmen, because for the BV you can mass the Snipers to do a proper fire pattern.
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Martius

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #9 on: 20 December 2011, 03:06:53 »
It is fine with me if an opponents decides to dedicate forces to protect the Artillery against a possible strike. They will be missed elsewhere.

As for anti artillery tactics- well, I am rather fond of loading a century of Arrow IV artillery infantry onto some Transport (Tonbo, Zug, Planetlifter)and drop them somewhere in appropriate range.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #10 on: 20 December 2011, 15:10:09 »
As for anti artillery tactics- well, I am rather fond of loading a century of Arrow IV artillery infantry onto some Transport (Tonbo, Zug, Planetlifter)and drop them somewhere in appropriate range.

I had a hand in those infantry being invented... And even I'm scared of this idea.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #11 on: 20 December 2011, 15:29:52 »
I love this idea... As for the Marksman, it's one of my favorite SPGs. Heavy arty piece with my favorite direct-fire gun? I'm there!
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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #12 on: 20 December 2011, 18:34:19 »
Back them up with a LRM Carrier to deal with heli's, or something else cheep and anti-air

It's got the same problem the artillery piece does as far as not having a turret and is too slow to keep up with them on the move.  Partisans or Pikes would at least have a turret but are still not really capable of keeping up with them.  My bet is that the SLDF used Riflemen to do that job.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #13 on: 20 December 2011, 21:47:30 »
Or had a LBX armed light or medium tank of their own.  Maritus, my suggestion was for a TO&E . . . and for the battalion sized games some folks play.
Colt Ward
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #14 on: 20 December 2011, 23:53:39 »
Or had a LBX armed light or medium tank of their own.  Maritus, my suggestion was for a TO&E . . . and for the battalion sized games some folks play.

Remember, the SLDF only had the 10-X model.  Limits what could carry it.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #15 on: 21 December 2011, 00:21:13 »
Or had a LBX armed light or medium tank of their own.  Maritus, my suggestion was for a TO&E . . . and for the battalion sized games some folks play.

This is why some vindictive bastard put a pair of HAGs on a Huey.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #16 on: 21 December 2011, 00:31:36 »
Hmm, maybe a LB-5X should be a variant weapon on some of the tanks.
Colt Ward
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #17 on: 21 December 2011, 09:43:38 »
I always felt the marksman was a bit too heavy and slow for it's intended job as an artillery unit.    65 tons is far too heavy for a single weapon dedicated unit.   Too much weight being sacrificed to make it do more than it really needs to.   The large laser rarely if ever got fired and if it was, it was against light and mediums or VTOLs... where it never really got to be effective.   The armor on it was too oddly arranged, would have been happier with a more even and lighter scheme.  Honestly with artillery units, the armor is mostly there for show and shrapnel anyways.   If it is getting directly fired on, it might as well be time to pop the hatches and bail out like the crew were Cobra soldiers from the old cartoon, no amount of armor will save the thing.

In essence, so much more could have been shaved off the vehicle to either make it lighter or faster.   Honestly, toss off the laser and the excess armor belt to get it under 50 tons to even make using a Sniper artillery piece worth putting on the table... lighter if possible.   The only way to justify keeping it at 65 tons is to make it able to actually outpace something.

But in it's defense, it is one of the few mid ranged artillery units in the game and if it means not having to drag a sniper into the field, I guess taking the Marksman is about the only reliable choice.

As for it's direct fire refits...  not quite sure I am liking the idea of a 'Hunting' Marksman honestly but I am one who enjoys taking old chassis and figuring out SOMETHING for them...  so I can't fault the engineers for trying.   As long as the AC Marksman never got fully accepted, it is just a desperation foot note.

The Jihad refit...  addressing none of my concerns for the chassis and giving more toys that have little to no actual application except to give the crew a bit of a morale boost, knowing that they won't be mobbed by peasants...  but will get picked apart by any form of infantry squad that brought along a heavy weapon.    Too much showy newness without making the vehicle even a lick more effective at it's actual job.   Still too heavy and too slow and now too expensive.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #18 on: 21 December 2011, 10:17:07 »
In a Com Guards vs. WoB scenario I once ran, I had a Level II of Marksmen hidden behind fortifications, lobbing Copperhead-equipped rounds at the oncoming WoBbies.  Since the Com Guards also had a number of TAG-refitted Karnovs available, this actually worked out quite well for them... ;)

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Colt Ward

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Marksman Artillery Vehicle
« Reply #19 on: 21 December 2011, 11:37:41 »
The massive armor to the front makes SOME sense . . . it just fails when you consider the thin skinned turret and sides.  SP Guns do train on being direct fire support, and the think armor up front can let it play an assault gun role . . . it its turret had more than half the armor of its front glacis.

With that said, I really do like a refit with a LB-5X w/2t ammo, ECM, 3t of Sniper ammo, and a bit less armor gives a lot of options.  The ECM lets it hide a bit better (with DB games) and the LB-5X counters its biggest threats of VTOLs and Hovers who will be looking to kill the artillery lance.
Colt Ward
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