Author Topic: Master Unit List - Battle Values  (Read 50058 times)

gooseman

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #240 on: 25 March 2011, 10:41:07 »
Wow, for a FREE product that took more than a year's work from a group of VOLUNTEERS there sure is a lot of complaining. A FREE 200 page product is a reason to celebrate, not whine about what was not included, especially when it has been explained multiple times that this FREE product is the first in a line of them. Though, if people aren't happy with the quality of this FREE product I am sure that the people involved can find something else to do than provide an incredible data book for FREE.

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #241 on: 25 March 2011, 10:54:10 »
Hello-

A few answers:

"Not on the list but we have stats and BV, just no Record Sheet." - The act of creating a record sheet is something of the final fact check. Over the course of the MUL process, errors were found with construction in TROs predating 3085, including 3075. Until we generate a Record Sheet, we do not feel we can commit to the quality levels we are aiming for with the Battle Value / BattleForce stats. As BV/BF is critical to balanced game play, quality wins over schedule.


"Is BA Battle Value per trooper or squad?"-
It is intended to be per squad, with the squad size based on the most common user of that design. A Clan Elemental will have a BV based on a squad of 5, a WoB Purifer on a squad of 6.
We hope to update BA BV in the future to show the value for an individual suit and the most common squad size. Players can then calculate the BV of any squad size using the rules on pg 316 of TechManual (Battle Armor Unit Size Modifier Table).

Extinct- Extinct is intended to mean the design is not in any "measurable" use during that Era. LAMs are considered extinct in the Dark Age. There may be some in museums or the like, but not enough to warrant them being measured in the faction access.

This is an error in the database output. We had originally planned to release this version of the MUL last year, with only a Jihad faction availability. TRO3085 and its Supplemental cross the Jihad, Dark Age boundary so we chose to update the database and start supporting multiple eras of availability in this release (something planned for much later). Unfortunately the "Extinct" heading was first intended for a single era system and we missed how it didn't translate properly when we added the Dark Age faction access. This will be corrected in future releases.

Thank you,
Joel BC
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Neufeld

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #242 on: 25 March 2011, 11:01:33 »
Extinct- Extinct is intended to mean the design is not in any "measurable" use during that Era. LAMs are considered extinct in the Dark Age. There may be some in museums or the like, but not enough to warrant them being measured in the faction access.

This is an error in the database output. We had originally planned to release this version of the MUL last year, with only a Jihad faction availability. TRO3085 and its Supplemental cross the Jihad, Dark Age boundary so we chose to update the database and start supporting multiple eras of availability in this release (something planned for much later). Unfortunately the "Extinct" heading was first intended for a single era system and we missed how it didn't translate properly when we added the Dark Age faction access. This will be corrected in future releases.

Thank you,
Joel BC

So, if the faction list reads:
Jihad: EXTINCT, X, Y, Z   Republic: EXTINCT
It is supposed to be:
Jihad: X, Y, Z    Republic: EXTINCT
quiaff?



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Welshman

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #243 on: 25 March 2011, 11:09:23 »
So, if the faction list reads:
Jihad: EXTINCT, X, Y, Z   Republic: EXTINCT
It is supposed to be:
Jihad: X, Y, Z    Republic: EXTINCT
quiaff?

Hello,

Most likely. Obviously until we review them all, we don't want to give a hard and fast answer. We are working to correct this with the next update.
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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #244 on: 25 March 2011, 11:13:12 »
The MUL is so good, I would have paid double...triple for it!
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gooseman

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #245 on: 25 March 2011, 11:28:19 »
The MUL is so good, I would have paid double...triple for it!


Triple?!?! Hhhhrrrrmmmphhhh! I would pay, dear fellow, FIVES TIMES what I did!
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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #246 on: 25 March 2011, 11:29:30 »
Hello-

A few answers:


"Is BA Battle Value per trooper or squad?"-
It is intended to be per squad, with the squad size based on the most common user of that design. A Clan Elemental will have a BV based on a squad of 5, a WoB Purifer on a squad of 6.
We hope to update BA BV in the future to show the value for an individual suit and the most common squad size. Players can then calculate the BV of any squad size using the rules on pg 316 of TechManual (Battle Armor Unit Size Modifier Table).

Thank you,
Joel BC

No, Thank you!   [rockon]

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #247 on: 25 March 2011, 11:40:17 »
All,

While I'm sure that CGL appreciates all those fans who have expressed their appreciation of this product in this thread and others on these message boards (or in any other ways they may have expressed this), I would also ask that those dissatisfied with the product for whatever reason be allowed to express any constructive criticism they may be able to offer. This type of response is actually useful, as it helps CGL improve future products to better meet all of our demands.

However, just remember, when I said the above, I asked for "CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM" from those dissatisfied with the product. Snide comments about it and/or disparaging ones against the volunteers that put it together are still not allowed in our rules. Helpful comments and examples concerning how it could be made better will be accepted, and, I'm sure, given due consideration by those working on future products.

Thank you,

Ruger
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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #248 on: 25 March 2011, 11:52:27 »
Unfortunately most of that criticism seems to take the form of complaining that x isn't in this, the first (of many) release, and most of them have resons for not being there on the first or second pages.


I'm personally happy with it at the moment, the holes are a bit annoying, true, but I accept the desire for fact checking.  I only hope they hurry up with those record sheets (insert ravenous fan who needs more product here).  It wasn't said explicetly, but it is looking like we might get faction availability for all the eras eventually once more fact checking is done.  If that is indeed the case, since we now have sourcebooks for playing the clans pre-invasion, I would hope the availability would cover that (just what mechs DID Clan Ghost Bear field during Operation Klondike and during the Golden Century?)

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #249 on: 25 March 2011, 11:53:11 »
"Not on the list but we have stats and BV, just no Record Sheet." - The act of creating a record sheet is something of the final fact check. Over the course of the MUL process, errors were found with construction in TROs predating 3085, including 3075. Until we generate a Record Sheet, we do not feel we can commit to the quality levels we are aiming for with the Battle Value / BattleForce stats. As BV/BF is critical to balanced game play, quality wins over schedule.

Thanks for the response, I guess it just seemed to me that providing these units could have helped speed up the errata process for them, not only for BV but manufacting and timeline stats as well. This is a HUGE project and we know there will be errata, just because it will be one type of errata (BV) vs another (availablity) seemed an odd reason to exclude them.

Not saying that we as fans have come to expect errata, because we have (I had the PDF within an hour of it's realease but I think I'll wait until a year or so of updates before I print it). It's that we love the errata, and are happy to get it in such a timely manner and prolific amounts.  ;D

I was also frustrated by their lack of inclusion because it now inhibits my use of this document to educate new players on the existance and availablity of these "Phantom Units" as they begin to explore the CBT universe, I'd rather have them in and wrong then not have them at all.

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #250 on: 25 March 2011, 12:25:20 »
One thing I am curious about: the Celestials are not listed a Extinct in the MUL. I can understand them
not having which factions are willing to field the salvaged ones from the Jihad, since that would
likely be a spoiler, but I would think that the Celestial 'Mechs would be Extinct in the Early Dark Age.

Also, I found it interesting that the Jade Falcons were listed as having availability of Protomechs in
the Early Dark age period. Given that the Falcon's killed their Protomech program by 3067, by the Jihad
era, there would be dwindling numbers of left-over warriors who went through the program. A large number
would have been thinned out, in fact, by 3070(given that the average life expectancy of a Protomech Warrior
is 3 years). Even if the significant numbers are the result of Bondsmen from Ice Hellions, you would still be
seeing a drop off from 3074 to 3081. In theory, by 3085, 10 years in, there would be no Protomech Warriors
for the Jade Falcons...unless something changed.

Another thing I found interesting is that TRO:3085 mentioned that many of the original Clan OmniMechs were
no longer in production in the Inner Sphere Clan Facilities. Does the not listing them as "Extinct" in the Dark
Age Era, the time period where it was already stated many were no longer in production, mean that TRO:3085
was already out of date/in error, that the Home World Clans are somehow still going to factor into the Early
Dark Age, that they have Inner Sphere(i.e., Republic) based factories, or that, at this time, which ones are no
longer in production has yet to be finalized?
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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #251 on: 25 March 2011, 12:28:38 »
One thing I am curious about: the Celestials are not listed a Extinct in the MUL. I can understand them
not having which factions are willing to field the salvaged ones from the Jihad, since that would
likely be a spoiler, but I would think that the Celestial 'Mechs would be Extinct in the Early Dark Age.

Well, the Shadow Divisions did leave and disappear.

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Welshman

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #252 on: 25 March 2011, 12:32:48 »
Greetings,

Wraithcannon- Thank you for the feedback. It is a tough decision between quality and inclusiveness. Because BV is used to balance battles, we decided to go with quality. Thank you for the feedback though, it helps us to make future decisions.

Celestials in the Dark Age (Republic)- I believe this is an error. We will be checking that and please look to the next update for final confirmation.
-Joel BC-
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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #253 on: 25 March 2011, 13:39:22 »
Another thing I found interesting is that TRO:3085 mentioned that many of the original Clan OmniMechs were
no longer in production in the Inner Sphere Clan Facilities. Does the not listing them as "Extinct" in the Dark
Age Era, the time period where it was already stated many were no longer in production, mean that TRO:3085
was already out of date/in error, that the Home World Clans are somehow still going to factor into the Early
Dark Age, that they have Inner Sphere(i.e., Republic) based factories, or that, at this time, which ones are no
longer in production has yet to be finalized?
I think it's just that it's not quite that dire for the IS Clans.  TRO:3085 states that "several archetypal designs are now beyond their ability to manufacture." when discussing the IS Clans in general. It then goes on to only state that no new Warhawks have been seen in over a decade. The Timber Wolf and Summoner are mentioned, but just note that the Wolves nearly lost the ability to manufacture the T-Wolf and that just the Jade Falcons can still produce the Summoner. Outside of the Warhawk example, the Dragonfly and maybe the Myst Lynx are the only of the 3050 omnis not manufactured by at least one of the IS Clans, with the Nova Cats being the only IS Clan not manufacturing any such designs. The continued existence of the Warhawk could be chalked up to the IS Clans taking great pains to maintain them, as noted in TRO:3050U. The same could be true for the remaining 'mechs that aren't necessarily produced by a particular Clan. Heck, the Nova hasn't been produced since 2921 and was reasonably common at the time of Operation Revival.

But as always, I could be horribly wrong.  :D

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #254 on: 25 March 2011, 14:13:09 »
Also: there is no reason why production could not have been resumed on the Mist Lynx, Viper, and Warhawk in the years after 3085. Reverse engineering the production lines would take time, but it is possible.

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #255 on: 26 March 2011, 06:59:44 »
Am I getting this wrong of has the RotS gained access to literally EVERYTHING? Oo

I'm surpised they didn't get access to the Blood Asp and Pariah as well...
« Last Edit: 26 March 2011, 07:08:44 by ABADDON »

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #256 on: 26 March 2011, 07:03:23 »
Hopefully they will manage to get TRO3067 in their soon.   The most current version is Fanpro so that would be why its no in their, but its still a lot of mechs missing from the list.

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #257 on: 26 March 2011, 09:40:01 »
Great product. Thanks for all of the hard work.

Two recommendations:

1. For the Bookmarks, could we get some further breakdown rather than simply unit types? I don't think putting each mech name would be wise but maybe the first letter of the name. You can probably even skip some letters and do every third letter. Just to allow one to get to a specific section a little quicker without resorting to a search. AKA bookmark A, D, G... Enough to get you down to a 10ish page group. Infantry probably wouldn't need much at all. Mechs and vehicles could use some help.

2. This is the slightly more difficult one. Is it possible to get the units in true alpha numeric order. The variant numbers are a little jumping due to the computer putting things like -7S after -14S. It should probably be treated like -07S but we don't have the leading 0. I'm not sure how easy that would be.

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #258 on: 26 March 2011, 10:45:54 »
1. For the Bookmarks, could we get some further breakdown rather than simply unit types? I don't think putting each mech name would be wise but maybe the first letter of the name. You can probably even skip some letters and do every third letter. Just to allow one to get to a specific section a little quicker without resorting to a search. AKA bookmark A, D, G... Enough to get you down to a 10ish page group. Infantry probably wouldn't need much at all. Mechs and vehicles could use some help.

^ This would be tremendously useful.
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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #259 on: 30 March 2011, 00:22:48 »
First off, a rather humble thank you goes out to the folks who put effort into this beast.

A few things are kind of bugging me at the moment now.

First, I can't understand the decision to go ahead with the two timelines listed for availability. It's known that many players have a problem with the Jihad and Dark Ages. It's why there's been so much effort put into products that service earlier eras. So why have the only two eras listed as the two least popular? Surely a Jihad and 67 listing would have served far more players.

Second, the decision to change the era listing from 50 to 49 seems conspicuous. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. (It's not broke.)

Third, The decision to exclude `67 designs seems downright obnoxious, and the reasoning behind it poorly portrayed. (We can't make a buck off it right now, so let's alienate longtime fans by rolling our eyes and whistling when someone mentions it's absence.)


BirdofPrey

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #260 on: 30 March 2011, 01:56:43 »
Likely it's because the Jihad and Dark age products are easier to fact check and integrate directly into the MUL being more recent.

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #261 on: 30 March 2011, 02:00:47 »
And Jihad products have been some of the best selling products in years, suggesting that the vocal anti-Jihad/Dark Age crowd are a minority.
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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #262 on: 30 March 2011, 02:02:34 »
It's known that many players have a problem with the Jihad and Dark Ages. It's why there's been so much effort put into products that service earlier eras. So why have the only two eras listed as the two least popular? Surely a Jihad and 67 listing would have served far more players.

There's a number of incorrect assumptions there, which have been refuted by continued sale presence, actually looking at the product catalog, and comments directly from TPTB.

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #263 on: 30 March 2011, 02:03:19 »
On the other hand, alot of data is missing. We see giant gaps in the post Jihad era because they either don't know, haven't gotten there yet, or want it to remain a secret.

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #264 on: 30 March 2011, 06:46:44 »
Hi Andrew,

It's known that many players have a problem with the Jihad and Dark Ages.

And many players have a problem with pretty much any era. Meanwhile, it's where we're at, and where we're moving forward from, whether some like it or not. Taking those eras is 100% logical.


Quote
It's why there's been so much effort put into products that service earlier eras.

No, that's not why.


Quote
So why have the only two eras listed as the two least popular? Surely a Jihad and 67 listing would have served far more players.

Sales say otherwise.


Quote
Third, The decision to exclude `67 designs seems downright obnoxious, and the reasoning behind it poorly portrayed. (We can't make a buck off it right now, so let's alienate longtime fans by rolling our eyes and whistling when someone mentions it's absence.)

I'd like to see you link to a post that says exactly that.
You can't. I'm not sure why you have such a strong urge to fill in non-existent blanks, nor why you choose to come up with malicious nonsense material such as above to do the filling with.

The issue is that no current recordsheets exist for the units in question. That's not a trivial issue.
But it is a temporary one. As has been stated countless times, this is WIP. And it always will be.

Paul
The solution is just ignore Paul.

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #265 on: 30 March 2011, 10:00:07 »
Hi Andrew,

And many players have a problem with pretty much any era. Meanwhile, it's where we're at, and where we're moving forward from, whether some like it or not. Taking those eras is 100% logical.

True enough, as far as being logical. Practical, however, Not as much. The somewhat recent addition of iconography on most major releases detailing which era the product covers was pure genius.  Battletech has so many great timeframes to choose from, that it just seemed downright odd to have the only two listed in the project as the two furthest in the timeline, as opposed to splitting them up a bit.

Take Martial Olympiads, (Please) Was a great worldwide event. My most memorable Battletech experience. Works perfectly in the Star League reformation. The MUL is arguably the thing that the MO has been waiting on (And it's BV2 implications, obviously). However, an era listing for the 2nd Star League isn't about, and that's quite disappointing.

Quote
No, that's not why.

Please elaborate. The recent push towards "Play however you want, whenever you want." doesn't seem to jive with "Battletech is moving forward, deal with it."

Quote
Sales say otherwise.

You're unlikely (and legally barred) to release hard information on that, but I trust you at your word.  Still, I find it hard to believe that when BT was putting out two dozen unit patches, faction dice, vinyl model kits, and every gaming store you walked into had 2 4th edition box sets and a wall of BT minis, it wasn't making as much money (or more) then Catalyst did during the Jihad, with core books being pushed back months at a time.

Quote
I'd like to see you link to a post that says exactly that.
You can't. I'm not sure why you have such a strong urge to fill in non-existent blanks, nor why you choose to come up with malicious nonsense material such as above to do the filling with.
The issue is that no current recordsheets exist for the units in question. That's not a trivial issue.
But it is a temporary one. As has been stated countless times, this is WIP. And it always will be.
Paul

Quote? I said it "seems downright obnoxious, and the reasoning behind it poorly portrayed." I still stand behind that. The MUL has been worked on for years. It seems odd that in that time, no one could have recreated every entry in 3067 within a weeks time. Hell, I'm still under NDA, I'll do it if asked.

Paul

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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #266 on: 30 March 2011, 11:07:34 »
Battletech has so many great timeframes to choose from, that it just seemed downright odd to have the only two listed in the project as the two furthest in the timeline, as opposed to splitting them up a bit.

Again, this is just step 1.
And as far as a first step, the only logical option era wise is to take the one where the story's at. Not where the story was. Or might be. Such other eras are best included at a later time.


Quote
Please elaborate. The recent push towards "Play however you want, whenever you want." doesn't seem to jive with "Battletech is moving forward, deal with it."

You've got an unfortunate habit of re-interpreting what other people say. Taking my words literally would serve us both better.

CGL isn't stopping support in to other eras. The first emission of the MUL not including other era's should not be taken as an indication that no other era's will ever be supported. That presumption is highly illogical.


Quote
Still, I find it hard to believe that when BT was putting out two dozen unit patches, faction dice, vinyl model kits, and every gaming store you walked into had 2 4th edition box sets and a wall of BT minis, it wasn't making as much money (or more) then Catalyst did during the Jihad, with core books being pushed back months at a time.

You're attempting to draw far-reaching conclusions based on an incomplete set of information. That's unwise.


Quote
It seems odd that in that time, no one could have recreated every entry in 3067 within a weeks time.

Everything in due time. If it was easy, it would've been completed already. So, either CGL is incompetent, or it's not easy. It's unfortunate your assumptions lead you to presume the former.


Quote
Hell, I'm still under NDA, I'll do it if asked.

Don't call us, we'll call you.

Paul
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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #267 on: 30 March 2011, 11:16:43 »
I think this thread has jumped the shark.  The amount of chronic complaining is staggering considering the work put into the MUL.  Embarrassing.


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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #268 on: 30 March 2011, 11:20:01 »
It shows to go that people as a general rule are never staisfied, especially when something is free. They always seem to want more. I'm blame the so-called 'Entitlement Generation' and all the instant gratification junkies that it spawned.
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Re: Master Unit List - Battle Values
« Reply #269 on: 30 March 2011, 11:22:12 »
It shows to go that people as a general rule are never staisfied, especially when something is free. They always seem to want more. I'm blame the so-called 'Entitlement Generation' and all the instant gratification junkies that it spawned.

That is exactly it.   [applause]


"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered his last round...

"Carrying stuff may be a sign of improper utilization of your minions." - 'Freelance Writer' Paul

 

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