Suggestion for a new critical hit system.

[Neufeld]

A problem with the current critical hit rules is that crit-packing is too important, and the infamous torso-bombs and empty torsos becomes too dreaded.

To fix that problem, I thought up the following modifications to the current crit rules:

1. Floating crits are in use.

2. No transfer of critical damage, unless the normal damage itself did transfer.

3. A +2 is added to the roll of determining critical damage.

4. Critical hit locations are no longer rerolled when an empty or destroyed location comes up.

So, what do you think?

[Fnord]

While I, to be honest, don't agree with most of it, I think that the 4th point is a very good one. Hit a non critical location, and you don't deal any extra damage

[sketchesofpayne]

If you didn't reroll empty locations they'd have to include a whole formula for how many critical slots equipment takes up based on the mech's tonnage.  Big guns would take up more slots on smaller mechs to represent the actual volume it is occupying relative to the mech's size.

[Paint it Pink]

Actually another way of looking at the internal structure locations is to think of mechs as being like WW1 aircraft. You can hit and go through the, but the internal structure is empty where you hit. Works for me.

[doulos05]

I'm a big fan of #2, but that's because that's how my dad and I played it for years because we mis-read the rules....

[Thorsdad]

I suppose if you do not want things to go "boom" as often.  I would think it would lengthen the overall scenario as well.  On the flip side, our house rules use the "box car"  is a hit with a critical chance on "aggressor" (NPC "bad guy") Mechs.  Which has lead to a couple of very spectacular deaths for well deserving Blakists, particularly when the hit roll is followed by two more box cars.

[worktroll]

If you didn't reroll empty locations they'd have to include a whole formula for how many critical slots equipment takes up based on the mech's tonnage.  Big guns would take up more slots on smaller mechs to represent the actual volume it is occupying relative to the mech's size.

It'd be simpler to limit the number of critical slots available by 'Mech size. Leaving legs and head aside, maybe:
- Assaults get 12
- Heavies get 10
- Mediums get 8
- Lights get 6

While it would require a major change to the construction system, probably changes to the amount of crits FF and ES take up by chassis size, and redesign of almost all existing 'Mechs, it would in play be far simpler than making the weapon size change depending on the chassis.

W.

[sketchesofpayne]

It'd be simpler to limit the number of critical slots available by 'Mech size. Leaving legs and head aside, maybe:
- Assaults get 12
- Heavies get 10
- Mediums get 8
- Lights get 6

While it would require a major change to the construction system, probably changes to the amount of crits FF and ES take up by chassis size, and redesign of almost all existing 'Mechs, it would in play be far simpler than making the weapon size change depending on the chassis.

W.

Yeah, that'd be the best way to solve it.

I'm a big fan of #2, but that's because that's how my dad and I played it for years because we mis-read the rules....

Actually I believe criticals didn't transfer in the old rules.  I think it was changed at some point.

[Neufeld]

For my purposes any solutions that messes with construction rules are useless.
However, what could be done to fix the issue raised is to have crits occur more often in smaller mechs by changing point three to:
3. A size factor is added to the roll that determine if critical damage occurs. The size factor is +3 for light mechs, +2 for medium mechs, +1 for heavy mechs and 0 for assault mechs.

[skiltao]

Instead of a size factor, I'd base your crit roll bonus on how many internal structure boxes remain in the location.  Then both big 'Mechs and big guns benefit. 

A problem with the current critical hit rules is that crit-packing is too important, and the infamous torso-bombs and empty torsos becomes too dreaded.

Well, one gimmicky but relatively legal way to handle that is to spread your ammo across ten or so fractional ammo bins.  Each slot explodes for a fraction of the full damage, and as they empty they act as padding for the remaining slots. (Equivalently, divide ammo explosion damage by however many "empty" slots the location has.)  This has the side effect of making endo steel and ferro less attractive to light 'Mechs, which otherwise have little reason to avoid advanced construction materials. 

Actually another way of looking at the internal structure locations is to think of mechs as being like WW1 aircraft. You can hit and go through the, but the internal structure is empty where you hit. Works for me.

It'd be simpler to limit the number of critical slots available by 'Mech size. Leaving legs and head aside, maybe:
- Assaults get 12
- Heavies get 10
- Mediums get 8
- Lights get 6

Could combine these two ideas, and let 'Mechs take a number of "shot passes through without hitting anything" items to pad their critical tables.  Inverting the old Maximum Tech Critical Space Limits Table would give 0 to lights, 2 to mediums, 4 to heavies, and 8 to assaults. 

[willydstyle]

As is there is little enough reason to field light mechs outside of specific scenarios.  Making the game even more skewed towards heavier designs would be bad for balance, IMO.

[Cybra]

Another option would be to roll to see if you do re-roll an empty crit. Something along the lines of on a 10+ you do re-roll the crit. To reduce the almost blatant game change that this would cause, any location that has lost 50% or more of its IS must re-roll empty critical slots hit. This will have the effect of larger damging weapons having more chance to hit critical components in lighter units, but allowing those same units to potentially survive for longer against similar weights.

Or you could just make a new IS, _{let's call it "open frame"}, that weighs more, _+5%, and takes up critical slots in some/most/all locations, _{every 6th slot on the critical hit table is an "open frame" critical (i.e., the head won't have any, and the centre torso will only have 1, unless you take a compact gyro)}.

Love it? Hate it? Don't care?

[Neufeld]

Another option would be to roll to see if you do re-roll an empty crit. Something along the lines of on a 10+ you do re-roll the crit. To reduce the almost blatant game change that this would cause, any location that has lost 50% or more of its IS must re-roll empty critical slots hit. This will have the effect of larger damging weapons having more chance to hit critical components in lighter units, but allowing those same units to potentially survive for longer against similar weights.

Or you could just make a new IS, _{let's call it "open frame"}, that weighs more, _+5%, and takes up critical slots in some/most/all locations, _{every 6th slot on the critical hit table is an "open frame" critical (i.e., the head won't have any, and the centre torso will only have 1, unless you take a compact gyro)}.

Love it? Hate it? Don't care?

I like the roll to check for re-roll. As for the 50% rule, there is the advanced critical rules on pages 74-75 in TO that also makes bigger hits crit more often.

The new IS idea on the other hand has the problem that it would force redesign of existing mechs which is not a good idea.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Given how low the odds are of scoring a crit in the first place, eliminating or reducing the viability of rerolling crits dealt to empty locations seems rather overpowering.  If you're going to say that hitting Ferro or an Empty location causes the crit to be wasted, maybe Crits should be changed so that you don't actually make a crit check after internal damage, you simply roll once on the crit location table every time.

[Beukeboom Fan]

While I, to be honest, don't agree with most of it, I think that the 4th point is a very good one. Hit a non critical location, and you don't deal any extra damage

Strongly disagree.  In that case - there is NO need for crit packing, because all mechs would be "crit packed" equivelantly.   I think that changing the rules because a couple of mechs are brutally designed (Crusader, Maruader come to mind) is a bad solution.   

Of course - you can house rule what-ever you want for you games.  I'd rather allow retroactive inclussion of Case instead of changing the critical rules.

[Neufeld]

In that case - there is NO need for crit packing, because all mechs would be "crit packed" equivelantly. 

That is the whole idea. The need to crit pack is stupid, as if the shots gets a magical homing capability once they enter the torso. If there is nothing to hit where it enter, then it should hit nothing.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That is the whole idea. The need to crit pack is stupid, as if the shots gets a magical homing capability once they enter the torso. If there is nothing to hit where it enter, then it should hit nothing.

Typically known as "2-7 on the Critical Confirmation Roll."

[StCptMara]

Ever take a look at the 'mech art? I have a hard time imaginging a shot that damages inside NOT hitting something. And, even then,
the shots that don't critical are not that didn't damage components..they just did not damage that had an effect.

Maybe make a Design Quirk "Spacious Design", which imposes a penalty of -2 to the critical roll? That way, some designs have it, some
don't. (Counter act that with a Quirk of "Compact Design"..imposes a bonus to the Critical hit roll, because everything is so close together)

[Beukeboom Fan]

That is the whole idea. The need to crit pack is stupid, as if the shots gets a magical homing capability once they enter the torso. If there is nothing to hit where it enter, then it should hit nothing.

If you think the crit system is unfair, why just not take it out entirely then?   

Just IMO, but what you are suggesting would significantly increase the length of the game.   Mechs already tend to last a LONG time, and what you propose would really reduce the chances of a critical hits, especially against the smaller or 3025 mechs where crit space was almost never an issue.

Seems like you're trying to balance an underlying issue (flashbulbs & crit packing) by changing the crit rule.  I understand the desire to do this based on the lack of balance between flashbulbs & ammo reliant mechs - but I think what you're proposing is too extreme.

[Neufeld]

Just IMO, but what you are suggesting would significantly increase the length of the game.   Mechs already tend to last a LONG time, and what you propose would really reduce the chances of a critical hits, especially against the smaller or 3025 mechs where crit space was almost never an issue.

The ideal would be to have a mech with half the crit slots filled with crittable stuff to suffer crits as often as they do currently, while a mech with less crittable stuff would suffer crits less often, while a mech with more would suffer them more often.

Maybe not check for crits at all, just roll a slot and crit if something crittable is in that slot?

[A. Lurker]

The ideal would be to have a mech with half the crit slots filled with crittable stuff to suffer crits as often as they do currently, while a mech with less crittable stuff would suffer crits less often, while a mech with more would suffer them more often.

Maybe not check for crits at all, just roll a slot and crit if something crittable is in that slot?

Maybe. Although it's true that such a system would seriously favor light 'Mechs (which have less weight to spend on crittable components) and would make large, bulky weapons correspondingly less attractive as well -- consider hitting an Atlas (classic AS7-D) and knowing you're guaranteed to either disable that big scary boomstick or hit its ammo with the first shot that goes internal on its right torso, for example.

If we really want to speed up play, I'd be tempted to try something fairly radical and simply get rid of critical hits as such altogether. As long as there's still internal structure in a location, everything there works normally; once it runs out, everything in it is taken out along with it. Simple as that. Might want to have a flat chance of having Stuff Blow Up when a hit destroys a location containing any explosive slots, I suppose, just so we can have things still go boom and so CASE doesn't become dead weight altogether...1 or 2 on 1d6, maybe, with every applicable slot in the location exploding at once (treat as one big explosion for purposes of pilot damage) if the number comes up?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Given how low the odds are of scoring a crit in the first place, eliminating or reducing the viability of rerolling crits dealt to empty locations seems rather overpowering.  If you're going to say that hitting Ferro or an Empty location causes the crit to be wasted, maybe Crits should be changed so that you don't actually make a crit check after internal damage, you simply roll once on the crit location table every time.

The ideal would be to have a mech with half the crit slots filled with crittable stuff to suffer crits as often as they do currently, while a mech with less crittable stuff would suffer crits less often, while a mech with more would suffer them more often.

Maybe not check for crits at all, just roll a slot and crit if something crittable is in that slot?

It's like I'm not even posting.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Our group uses the "Floating TAC" rule. The others I don't like and would fight against them showing on my table. Especially the not re-rolling non-critable items (FF,Endo, ect) and locations already hit. The chance to even get a crit is only 15/36  or a little under 42%. Then the "cheat" the player out of the satisfaction off hitting anything is just wrong.

I remember in the construction section of MaxTech there are rules for reducing the total number of available critical locations for 'Mechs.

[Patrick Dupree]

For our 3025 RPG campaign we use alternative rules to prevent the easy boom of Mechs like the Crusader:

We handle each empty crit slot as if internal structure was hit, dealing another point of internal damage.
Once a empty slot was hit it is destroyed.

So for example if you roll a crit location roll of top 3 in the side torso of a Crusader 3R you would receive another point of critical damage and have to roll if addition crits occur.

[Neufeld]

It's like I'm not even posting.

Sorry, it did sound familiar but I was not reading carefully enough when I checked past posts.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Don't worry about it, I was just yanking your chain.  Everybody overlooks stuff.

[doulos05]

For our 3025 RPG campaign we use alternative rules to prevent the easy boom of Mechs like the Crusader:

We handle each empty crit slot as if internal structure was hit, dealing another point of internal damage.
Once a empty slot was hit it is destroyed.

So for example if you roll a crit location roll of top 3 in the side torso of a Crusader 3R you would receive another point of critical damage and have to roll if addition crits occur.

Actually, I kinda like that. IS goes away pretty quickly, so you'd still get some reward for hitting the spot without the auto-boom effect.

[garhkal]

While I, to be honest, don't agree with most of it, I think that the 4th point is a very good one. Hit a non critical location, and you don't deal any extra damage

I like #4, and would love to see it applied to things like Endo/Ferro/TSM..

One thing i would like to see is rather than any crit that comes up being "confirmed" on an 8 or better on 2d6, there being some sort of variations based on HOW that crit came to be.
Such as:
TAC
Penetrated armor - phys
Penetrated armor - balistic
Penetrated armor - missile
Penetrated armor - energy.

[doulos05]

I like #4, and would love to see it applied to things like Endo/Ferro/TSM..

One thing i would like to see is rather than any crit that comes up being "confirmed" on an 8 or better on 2d6, there being some sort of variations based on HOW that crit came to be.
Such as:
TAC
Penetrated armor - phys
Penetrated armor - balistic
Penetrated armor - missile
Penetrated armor - energy.

So you want to know if it was jammed, crushed, hole-punched, exploded, or slagged? I think that's below the level of abstraction in Battletech.