Help with TDF Tactics in the "Modern Era"

[Einhander]

Good morning everyone,

Quick background on my quandary ->

Recently, my megamek server has introduced the TDF to their 3067 incarnation. My first reaction was  [rockon], but after a few games I realized just how hard it was to use T1 weaponry in the "modern" era.

Other than a few faction-specific standouts (Stinger 5R/5T, Marshal, Archer w/rockets) much of the build table list is pretty generic Tier 1/Tier 1.5 with the standby bugs, griffins, Marauder, Warhammer, Atlas, Awesome 3Q, BNC-3S, CGR-1A5, Victors, couple Longbows etc.

Another interesting point is that their heavy vehicle tables include a large quantity of Heavy LRM Carries and a decent number of Gauss Demolishers.

Given the scale of these battles (5x5 to 6x6 randomly generated mapsheets ) I have been having significant troubles against more modern forces due to the significant speed and range advantages of modern tech. A medium/light TDF force has the firepower, but they simply aren't maneuverable enough to duel with 7/11+ dogfighter mechs that float around in the neighboring factions.


When I try to bring out the big guns, I also have significant troubles as well. Most modern armies can kite my PPC heavy force, and when I try to bring out the aforementioned guass demo's and Heavy LRM carriers they simply do not have the maneuverability to keep up with a map of this size.

I have had some success on City maps, but rough terrain bogs my units down heavily (5/8 is the cap for everything except light mechs) and open terrain turns into a turkey shoot.

My question to the denizens of this great forum is: What force comp/tactics would you run in the 14k-16k BV range for a TDF force against modern Federated Suns/FWL/WOB forces?

[Moonsword]

That is, in fact, exactly the misadventure the Taurians had with the Federated Suns and didn't take many of the important lessons away from judging from the Brahma.

First of all, quit playing nice.  You can beg, borrow, or steal to get Narc and TAG spotters.  If nothing else, you've got RVN-3L Ravens on your list.  What makes those two systems useful is you can stuff ammo into things like artillery or LRMs to exploit them.  These are force multipliers that can dramatically affect what you can do within the limits of your available gear and an entire heavy LRM carrier's worth of semi-guided LRMs (which have proliferated since introduction) is horrifying.  Break out the artillery in quantity and use your fast hovers to put infantry out as spotters.  Drag out every dirty trick in TacOps and Total Warfare and ram them right down the other guy's throat.

Second, force engagements as best you can in terrain where the enemy is obliged to come into range of your own units.  This isn't always possible but it can also cut down on the maneuverability for enemies, so do what you can.  Pick your terrain and don't move off of it.  Artillery can be used to convince people to go where you want them.

Third, reconnaissance.  To execute either of the other goals, you have to know where you want to fight, where the enemy is, and what your options are for shaping his decisions along the lines you want.

Fourth, be prepared to take a lot of pounding.  Losses are inevitable against a technical disadvantage like that one.  Be glad you're not fighting Clantech.

Fifth, if you suspect C3/C3i is in play (and it may well be), do whatever you have to do to get ECM onto the field.  The Raven and Anubis are both good starting points for that.  You absolutely do not want to be dealing with an even bigger relative targeting disadvantage.

[Einhander]

Quoted for turth Moonsword  [notworthy]. During the beta, I WAS playing clanners. THAT was a series of fights that humbled me. I feal sorry for IS forces during the invasion as I had several battles where a company of units wiped out wholesale by a star of clan heavy/assaults. :'(

The main problem with begging/borrowing/stealing tech is the build tables are pretty hard coded and salvage is rare (and can't be used too much). I am trying to beg for precision ammunition but thats a ways away if at all.

I have had a little success with the Commando H (with the rocket launchers) as an ambush/flanker force, but getting them in quantity is tough. Did manage to splat a kingfisher with a lance of them once.

I have pretty much written off being subtle though. Due to a 50% rule (50% of the force must contain Medium/Heavy units) I have been trying out Heavy/Assault blitzkriegs (hey diddle diddle right up the middle!) with mixed success and I am tinkering with a heavy vehicle (Demo/HLRM) force that relies of a grip of assaults supported by firesupport.

Artillery is also tough to grab in numbers (due to force composition limits and low build rate) but I am not taking that option off the table. Map size, again, becomes a major factor as the amount of damage I can pump out with a max of 4 sniper/thumpers is limited until I can get them in direct fire range.

I am also looking into using some battle armor as a flanker/pin down force, but again: the maps are so big that it is easy for them to get stuck out-of-position and have to hump it halfway across the map. There is also the option to have in-map Aero support, but I don't want to go down that road quite yet (slippery slope) although a RL troika or two would do wonders against hard targets :D.

Given a more in-game outlook on this (canon doesnt help when your facing cannons ;) ) has anyone had any success with "stock" TDF forces?

[Moonsword]

The main problem with begging/borrowing/stealing tech is the build tables are pretty hard coded and salvage is rare (and can't be used too much). I am trying to beg for precision ammunition but thats a ways away if at all.

That's why I suggested Ravens.  We know the TC had some of them.  Probably not too many, but they're a force multiplier.  On the other hand, I'm not familiar enough with the build tables.  If you can get the Ravens and some semi-guided or Narc ammo, LRM and heavy LRM carriers are going to take a serious jump in dangerousness.

I have pretty much written off being subtle though. Due to a 50% rule (50% of the force must contain Medium/Heavy units) I have been trying out Heavy/Assault blitzkriegs (hey diddle diddle right up the middle!) with mixed success and I am tinkering with a heavy vehicle (Demo/HLRM) force that relies of a grip of assaults supported by firesupport.

The problem is that this approach doesn't play to the TDF's strengths in that situation in my opinion.  All three forces opposing you can and do pull speed and range out at the drop of a hat.  I'm not sure what else you do if you can't get someone to get

Artillery is also tough to grab in numbers (due to force composition limits and low build rate) but I am not taking that option off the table. Map size, again, becomes a major factor as the amount of damage I can pump out with a max of 4 sniper/thumpers is limited until I can get them in direct fire range.

Are you playing with the new artillery rules?  Thumpers and Snipers both got nastier.

[JPArbiter]

Heavy LRM Carriers + Thunder Active Ammo= Limited Manuver options for Jumpy Davion Mechs.

you may also want to consider using conventional infantry to speed bump the Davion Menace.  TRO 3085 has a motorized Artillery company packing not only a decent amount of Rifles and support weapons, but six Light Autocannon 5s.

other then that, take cover and wait for your opponent to get impatient.  an impatient foe is more likely to make mistakes that you can exploit.

[Fallen_Raven]

Unfortunately your in a situation that is always going to be bad. Multiple enemies to plan for, all with a tech advantage, plus a predetermined limit on your force structure is going to be rough. If you remember the Clan Invasion, it's going to be a bit like that, with alot of the same solutions.

Find ways to get close and hit them hard.
Stick close and mutually support your units.
Do Not give them a fair fight. aka If your not cheating your not trying.

Quit trying to figure out how to win the other guy's battle, instead figure out how to make him fight yours. Artillery doesn't have to hit to make the enemy keep to cover while you waste ammo. Use the time to advance and negate his range advantage. Infantry doesn't have to fire a shot if your opponent stays away from the building they're hiding in. And really, when are mines not fun?

[Moonsword]

My view on it is that an artillery round that forces the enemy into fighting your fight instead of his isn't wasted, it's merely used unconventionally.  Welshman had some notes on artillery use that may still be in the in the archives that might be worth reviewing.

And if all else fails, you can always suggest that you break out the nukes.  The Taurians have a whole pile of the things.  A Crockett is not terribly likely to destroy even a company level force that operates with even minimal dispersion but it will shake them up, probably knock a lot of them down, and disrupt operations.  If you're smart and aggressive, I bet you can make a lot of use of that time.  Whether your group is willing to take that genie out of the bottle is, of course, something I'm not in a position to comment on.

Weirdo's habits of wacky antics may also be worth reviewing.  Keeping the other guy off balance is never a bad thing.

[klinktastic]

I would also highly suggest LRM 10 or greater delivered smoke. It comes in a turn after it is shot, but you can give yourself portable cover. Just plan a turn ahead. Additionally you can use the heavy smoke to block LOS for their fire support elements, disrupting their camp session.

[Medron Pryde]

Well, canonically, the Taurians make heavy use of vehicles to support their slow 'Mech forces.

Rommels/Pattons and Pos and probably some Manticores purchased from the Magistracy are their MBTs while J. Edgars, Plainsmen, and Fulcrums will be their primary fast attack hovercraft.

Main "in your face" style combat involves the Taurian heavies getting their enemy's attention while hovercraft slash in from the flank and stab them in the back.  Mixing in artillery to funnel them where you want them will also help.  And the LRM and Heavy LRM Carriers laying down minefields and sending swarm LRMs into the massed enemy formations while they close will also be nasty.

In short, unlike most nations out there, for the Taurians their heaviest baddest BattleMechs are diversions.  They are there to get the enemy's attention and hold it while the REAL threat, massed vehicle formations and artillery, move in and kill them.  If you are fighting on somebody's else's property (ala the Taurian invasion of the Fed Suns) that style of fighting goes belly up and you are pretty much frakked against a wall by a jack hammer.  The Taurians do NOT have a military that is good on the offense.

Oh, and as noted, the Taurians do NOT win by playing fair.  They win by cheating, by retreating when they have to, by sucking enemies into ambushes, by using infernos and mines and fieldworks and infantry totting ac5s and any other alternate force multiplying trick they can bring to the field.  Technology will not bring them victory.  Only superior trickiness and a stubborness to never give up.  Of course the ones who are too stubborn to try a new tactic when the first fails will be graduating from the great school of Darwin very soon.  ;)

All of that said, they actually do have access to a LOT of the Marik-marketed upgraded 3050 'Mechs.  Stuff like Griffins and Archers and stuff like that upgraded with Star League tech.  Granted that is a bit outclassed by some of the REALLY new stuff, but it is a big improvement over the stuff they build out of their factories.  A few of those generously applied to a force will help you greatly.  :)