Templar vs. Sunder

[Hellraiser]

Which is why refit kits never included CASE upgrades any more than they did endo steel skeletons.  Inferentially, this meant that if you wanted CASE on your Omni, you had to hard-mount it.

Actually I would point out that Refit Kits often DID include CASE in them.
Under the old Merc 3055 rules CASE was easier than Ferro.
And remember, just because its a Refit Kit doesn't mean it can't include Endo/XL/CASE, its just that THOSE refits are more intensive that say swapping out an AC10 for LB10

[Dread Moores]

And remember, just because its a Refit Kit doesn't mean it can't include Endo/XL/CASE, its just that THOSE refits are more intensive that say swapping out an AC10 for LB10

And under current rules, they're a refit kit that needs a factory grade facility to perform. Which makes me wonder why there's even a kit at that point.

[Stormfury]

So, then how is the DC screwed over in upgrades which seems to be what you imply?

If I'd meant to say something along those lines, I would have.

HUH ?  Its a FedSuns machine that the DC captured w/ the same model being made in the Suns & St. Ives, and still having SHS.  (Just like the FedSuns Enforcer & Centurion)

The Victor-9K is a Draconis Combine upgrade package that was later copied by the other Victor factories and/or exported to those who wanted to use it.

As if it even needs DHS w/ the heat curve of the Gauss.

Give it Double Heat Sinks and you are very nearly in position to upgrade the Medium Pulse Lasers to standard Large Lasers.

Crockett, Mauler, King Crab, Highlander, & Thug....... all CS or DC machines, NOT Fedsuns.

And is entirely irrelevant. This was not about who has what, it is about what else is present in the Assualt class. Against the machines that actually are well (or at least somewhat better) designed, the Sunder is decidedly lackluster.

As I said, it has More Armor, & Ranged Firepower  (What I look for in an Assault), than every other design in Tro3050.

It might be able to deliver more firepower in theory, but in practice it is outgunned because of the single heat sinks. Expected long range damage is between ~35 and ~43 depending on if you want to underheat by one or overheat by eleven without taking movement into consideration.

If the Banshee goes over by three, it can deliver 35. The Mauler can provide 34 damage at the expense of four heat. The Zeus can throw ~28 without any heat.

And when those machines run out of ammunition, they can all deliver damage with their energy weapons equal or better than what the Atlas can without overheating.

[Wrangler]

Well, I did like ironicly the Templar "Warhammer" configuration that least two leading characters in the Dark Age novels were using.  Though i can't tell if those Templars were originals or a non-omni version.   

[Reaver]

Actually I would point out that Refit Kits often DID include CASE in them.
Under the old Merc 3055 rules CASE was easier than Ferro.
And remember, just because its a Refit Kit doesn't mean it can't include Endo/XL/CASE, its just that THOSE refits are more intensive that say swapping out an AC10 for LB10

Not to say you aren't correct; you very well could be.  But I do remember poring through the old TRO: 3050 pretty carefully looking for field refits with CASE, and drawing a blank.  If it had CASE, it was because this was an upgrade of the actual production facility to build a better (sometimes) mech, not the result of a refit kit.  If I missed something, I'd be the first in line to reconsider my understanding about how the BMR:R rules handled pod-mounted CASE.  It would give me great joy to do so, since it would mean I've been skittish for a very long time about designs that I'd otherwise use w/o reservation (e.g. the Men Shen)

[A. Lurker]

By the stock BMR customization description, you'd simply use the Scavenging rules to pull stuff off a 'Mech and the Repairs and Replacements rules to install new items. (Design integrity checks are a separate issue.) So, installing CASE is basically a roll on the Master Repair Table as though replacing it...and seeing how CASE doesn't get an individual entry by itself, the next best fit is the "Weapons and Other Equipment" category, given how CASE is, well, equipment.

Long story short, under the rules as written in the Master Rules book, installing or removing IS CASE is no harder or easier than doing the same with a small laser (chosen here because it conveniently also takes up half a ton and one slot, so would affect design integrity in the exact same way as CASE does as well).

[Stormfury]

Not to say you aren't correct; you very well could be.  But I do remember poring through the old TRO: 3050 pretty carefully looking for field refits with CASE, and drawing a blank.  If it had CASE, it was because this was an upgrade of the actual production facility to build a better (sometimes) mech, not the result of a refit kit.  If I missed something, I'd be the first in line to reconsider my understanding about how the BMR:R rules handled pod-mounted CASE.  It would give me great joy to do so, since it would mean I've been skittish for a very long time about designs that I'd otherwise use w/o reservation (e.g. the Men Shen)

In the original TR 3050, all IS upgraded designs were available in upgrade kit format and factory lines were refurbished to boot.

StratOps' limitations are a new phenomena; prio to that, if you had a repair platform you could do whatever you liked.

[FedSunsBorn]

Well, I did like ironicly the Templar "Warhammer" configuration that least two leading characters in the Dark Age novels were using.  Though i can't tell if those Templars were originals or a non-omni version.

Didn't that config have 2 ERPPC's, 2 M-lasers, 2 S-lasers and 1 SSRM-4? Sounds decent.

[Spheroid]

  But I do remember poring through the old TRO: 3050 pretty carefully looking for field refits with CASE, and drawing a blank.

Possibly the TDR-9SE

[Spartan117]

Templar better overall configs and it looks cooler 8)

[Rorke]

Templar all the way.  It's a second generation IS omni being compared to a first after all.

[Wrangler]

Didn't that config have 2 ERPPC's, 2 M-lasers, 2 S-lasers and 1 SSRM-4? Sounds decent.

Yep, that is correct though the lasers were all extended versions.  Julian Davion and Jasek Kelswa-Steiner both pilot that variant, but i don't have my books on hand to remember if there was any small changes.  The variant only appeared in those novels, and in a some dossiers such as Hansen's Roughriders pilot - Cacey Duncan and Chas Kearn.

Only thing that bothered me about it, that it like most Dark Age novels, the writers usually avoided mentioning anything referring to OmniMechs.  It could mean that Templar in DA time my not be OmniMech, which would sad and pointless to have around.

[OpacusVenatori]

Well, I just try to build that variant in SSW, and even adding a T-Comp, Im still have 11 tons but only 1 critical left-

[Banzai]

Yep, that is correct though the lasers were all extended versions.  Julian Davion and Jasek Kelswa-Steiner both pilot that variant, but i don't have my books on hand to remember if there was any small changes.  The variant only appeared in those novels, and in a some dossiers such as Hansen's Roughriders pilot - Cacey Duncan and Chas Kearn.

Only thing that bothered me about it, that it like most Dark Age novels, the writers usually avoided mentioning anything referring to OmniMechs.  It could mean that Templar in DA time my not be OmniMech, which would sad and pointless to have around.

Is that going to change as That-Which-Was-CBT (to separate it from Click-Tech ) moves into the Dark Age time frame?  I understand why the novels were supporting the existing product, which was not modifiable, but things have changed.  A lot.