Author Topic: Shipping a horse across the stars  (Read 5309 times)

Mech Salvager

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Shipping a horse across the stars
« on: 13 June 2018, 12:45:08 »
So…, like the title indicates, I need to figure out the cost of shipping a horse across the Inner Sphere.
More specifically, I need a thoroughbred racehorse transported from Yeguas to Borgan’s Rift. It’s a trip that consists of 31 jumps, but I have no idea what the costs for transporting an ‘item’ like this are, and could use some help, if anyone is well versed in interstellar shipping costs.

Starfox1701

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #1 on: 13 June 2018, 13:01:04 »
I'm not sure there's a standard cost as that usually applies to bulk cargo. You might have to negotiate each jump plus cost if you need to change drop ships along the way. Either way that's the better part of a year in space with very delicate cargo. Its not going to be cheep. I'd bet it will run into the billions.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #2 on: 13 June 2018, 13:17:13 »
There's also the cost of bringing the horse down to almost every other world you pass by. After all, you probably want the animal to have the use of its legs when you arrive, which means it needs regular exercise in gravity...and I highly doubt most JumpShip grav decks will have the needed room.

If the planet's too far(or otherwise not a solution), your other option is to detach the DropShip, and have it fly away from and then back towards the Jumper while it recharges, giving everyone aboard a week or so of gravity, horse included.

At this point, you might as well ship a whole herd at once, since so many of these costs stay the same no matter how many horses are on your ship. I'm not sure if even a major noble would go through all this trouble for a single horse. Well, maybe Leonard Kurita or someone similar. Either way, we're talking about someone whose wallet and sense of entitlement is notably higher than your average House Lord. Are we talking about the secret sole owner of Irian or something?
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #3 on: 13 June 2018, 13:18:43 »
I never really gave it any thought before, but yeah, anything like this, livestock, etc. are going to be nightmares to actually transport. Carrying food and such for them is easy, and waste disposal is an unpleasant trip to the airlock away, but zero-G probably isn't good for them- in terms of physical health or in terms of stress levels. You'd pretty much need a constant 1G environment somehow- or at the very least, magnetic horseshoes might help.

Intriguing. Not just in terms of Battletech but any sci-fi setting that doesn't settle on artificial gravity (like Trek) to get things done.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #4 on: 13 June 2018, 13:28:37 »
My advice for new colony planners? Think really, REALLY big. Shipping large critters is going to be such a pain that you want to be able to breed an entire planetary population from what you bring in a very few number of trips. Take into account the fact that the sheer stress of space travel means heavy losses en route. If you have access to any remotely decent cryogenic stasis technology, USE IT.
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klarg1

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #5 on: 13 June 2018, 13:29:17 »
Does Battletech have any notion of cryogenic transport for large animals?

If not, the most practical option might be to locate a specialty merchant that can offer a jumpship-based grav deck dedicated to extreme high-value livestock to handle the duration of the trip. I could easily imagine such a thing existing in the pre-Succession Wars era.

Failing both of those, it seems to me that it would be far more practical to ship the "ingredients" for a horse, rather than the horse itself. (i.e. frozen horse embryos, or similar)

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #6 on: 13 June 2018, 13:31:15 »
(klarg1 beat me to it)

Since the destination is Canopian, perhaps cryogenic stasis is an option (depending on the era you're doing the transshipping in).  While Handbook: Major Periphery States notes that cryo-stasis units are LosTech and can have an unacceptably high failure rate, "The Sword and the Dagger" noted that it's standard operating procedure for the AFFS to use them to move wounded soldiers back to other worlds for medical treatment.  Ardan Sortek rides one all the way to Tharkad.

Alternatively, if you're not amenable to going the horsesicle route, you might want to do it colony style - ship a horse embryo instead of the adult horse, and gestate it once you reach the destination.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #7 on: 13 June 2018, 13:39:20 »
Wish I'd thought of that. Yeah, frozen horse-in-a-can sounds like your best bet.

Now for shipping a single prize, live horse? Get paid in advance, with a contract that doesn't penalize you if the horse dies anyway.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #8 on: 13 June 2018, 13:45:27 »
Probably good to check on whether or not gravity is a factor when you arrive, too. A horse running in 1.2Gs is going to probably suffer some leg problems due to the increased weight pushing down on its leg bones as it runs. 0.8Gs might be even worse in that regard. So... see if your critter will do okay on its new world. (Things like biological issues- viruses and such- obviously as well, but that's more of an in-general thing)
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Mendrugo

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #9 on: 13 June 2018, 13:48:44 »
Yeguas is .98 Gs, Borgan's Rift is .91 Gs, so it's not a major variance.
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massey

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #10 on: 13 June 2018, 13:54:02 »
There has to be a standard way to transport livestock.  I don't imagine they do well in weightless environments.  I bet the animal freaks out.  And if a horse loses bone density in zero-g the same way humans do, it'll be in danger of snapping its legs when returns planetside.  My guess is that there won't be many interstellar racehorse competitions.  A lot of that stuff is gonna be limited to a single system.

I'm also of the belief that there would be some kind of interstellar travel agency on most worlds.  They'd have info on regular shipping routes, and would be able to save you money and time by setting up a mini-command circuit, or a series of them.  Understand that these ships aren't waiting on you, you're just hitching a ride on vessels that happen to be in the same system at the same time.  Just like an airline today, where you want to go from Santa Fe to New York City.  You might have to go to Atlanta or Dallas, and then you've got a 3 hour layover before your next flight leaves.

Maybe you go to an interstellar tourist company a year before you make your trip, and they can tell you that in 8 months, there'll be a series of dropships where their schedules synch up.  A jumpship will be leaving your system, going 30 light years to a neighboring system.  Two days later, a different jumpship is scheduled to jump out, headed to star system #3.  The next day, another jumpship is supposed to go from system #3 to system #4.  From there, you'll layover in system #4 for three weeks.  And after that you'll go to system #5, wait for four days, and catch another ship to your destination of system #6.

A service like that would be expensive, but nothing compared to the overall costs of travel.  Who cares if you pay them 2,000 C-bills to plan your trip, if it's saving you hundreds of thousands.  Travel would still be an affair of the rich, but you wouldn't have to set aside years to go from one end of the Inner Sphere to the other.  Maybe on some of these dropships you're just sleeping in a converted utility closet, but you're not going to be there too long anyway.

Livestock are probably transported like this.  While the dropship is accelerating at 1G, the animal doesn't know any different from normal.  You've got a couple handlers there to calm them down during weightlessness (or some vets to sedate them), and you stick them in a padded room/tie them down so they don't hurt themselves.  The livestock dropship has timed its journey so that multiple jumpships are synched up, and it travels 3 or 4 jumps before a layover on some planet somewhere.  Then you wait for the next jumpship alignment, so your animals don't spend too much time weightless.

As long as you're willing to wait relatively long periods, it shouldn't cost too much.  For many animals (like cows and things), if you want to introduce them to a new world, it may make sense to establish a herd on your layover planet with a local farmer, and then take the next generation of animals to your destination.  Especially if there aren't good "connecting flights" and you're just going to have to wait for months.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #11 on: 13 June 2018, 13:58:29 »
Speaking of weightlessness during turnover....barf bags. Big ones, in large quantities. I've never seen a horse hork, and I hope never to, but your characters are gonna see a lot of it.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #12 on: 13 June 2018, 13:59:25 »
Massey, that's a remarkably well-thought-out post. Well done!
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nova_dew

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #13 on: 13 June 2018, 14:00:37 »
Can it be done? yes, has it been done? also yes, read up on the 2nd liao Guards in Field Report 2765 CCAF
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klarg1

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #14 on: 13 June 2018, 14:05:04 »
(klarg1 beat me to it)

It's OK. Weirdo beat me to the Cryogenic thing too.   :D

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #15 on: 13 June 2018, 14:05:35 »
My advice for new colony planners? Think really, REALLY big. Shipping large critters is going to be such a pain that you want to be able to breed an entire planetary population from what you bring in a very few number of trips. Take into account the fact that the sheer stress of space travel means heavy losses en route. If you have access to any remotely decent cryogenic stasis technology, USE IT.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #16 on: 13 June 2018, 14:17:29 »
Yup. I'll bet ranchers, colony planners, and others in the interstellar livestock business cannot wait until that tech spreads beyond the Clans. Same for conservationists(imagine what today's panda breeders would give for even a single Iron Womb), mad scientists, and rich would-be mothers who don't want to deal with pregnancy.

I wonder if the SharkFoxes have any idea what kind of gold mine they're sitting on?
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #17 on: 13 June 2018, 14:22:26 »
Not to mention the potential for genetically-perfect trueborn race horses/greyhounds/dachshunds/etc.


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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #18 on: 13 June 2018, 14:41:23 »
Not to mention player characters getting involved in attempts to protect or disrupt that kind of stuff...
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klarg1

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #19 on: 13 June 2018, 14:46:21 »
Yeguas is .98 Gs, Borgan's Rift is .91 Gs, so it's not a major variance.

Maybe.

My understanding is that champion thoroughbred horses (on Earth) ride right on the razor's edge between "runs like greased lightning" and "legs shatter after three strides".

Sure, there are plenty of other breeds with different traits and trade-offs, but the owner better know ahead of time.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #20 on: 13 June 2018, 15:25:45 »
Not to mention player characters getting involved in attempts to protect or disrupt that kind of stuff...

That would be a hell of an ATOW operation, actually.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #21 on: 13 June 2018, 15:28:28 »
I think Massey is on the right track, but if this is truly a prize race horse, you'll want to hire a JumpShip with a grav deck to take you the whole way.  Sedation for the transfers between DropShip and JumpShip, and any other zero-G or maneuvering periods.

And with regard to iron wombs, there were a few news stories either late last year or early this year talking about exactly that (experimenting on sheep).

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #22 on: 13 June 2018, 16:50:51 »
Massey, that's a remarkably well-thought-out post. Well done!

Thanks!  I've spent far too much time thinking about subjects like this. :D

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #23 on: 13 June 2018, 18:23:40 »
I suspect that the Inner Sphere *could* use iron wombs, they just choose not to. I would not be surprised if the standard way to transport livestock is via embryos.

But this does sound like a neat adventure!
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #24 on: 13 June 2018, 18:50:40 »
Guys, it's perfect.  Clan Hell's Horses want to bring in their totem animal from the Homeworlds, to introduce them to Inner Sphere worlds.  Players could be anything from Horse guards to another Clan trying to screw with them up to and including a bandit force hired to grab biological material for some super-rich horse fancier who wants the rarest of the rare and have orders to blow up the transport and kill the others after they get their horse/material.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #25 on: 13 June 2018, 19:04:33 »
With all aminals that would be transported it would probably be very expensive to send a horse accros the stars.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #26 on: 13 June 2018, 19:29:51 »
I want to say there's a canonical variant on a dropship specifically meant for shipping cattle and other agricultural critters.  Maybe of the Princess class?

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #27 on: 13 June 2018, 20:36:40 »
Just because I'm surprised that no one mentioned this...

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Mech Salvager

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #28 on: 13 June 2018, 23:51:01 »
Thank you all for the input; it has been very enlightening to read. I think Massey’s answer may be the most practical for transporting a single animal. It’d take quite a while, certainly. Now I just need to figure out a ballpark number for the cost.

To give a bit more background: It would be set around 3055 or so. The issue arose in the Mechwarrior RPG group I’m running, as I had a noble on Yeguas award the player’s mercenary team a horse as a bonus reward. Well, and since they have some minor holdings in on Borgan’s Rift (A reward for helping clear out pirates earlier), they figure they’d ship the horse there…across most of the Inner Sphere.

I knew it had to be possible to move livestock across space, otherwise how would the horses have come to Yeguas in the first place, which is known for breeding them.  Likewise, for various other planets transport of livestock show up in their backstory at some point.

I wonder if it would be possible to rent space on something like a trading dropship, going from planet to planet, often touching down to either pick something up or unload something. That would give time for the horse to have some time outside of the dropship every now and then. Of course, the last leg of the trip to Borgan’s Rift would be fairly difficult to schedule, seeing as there are likely fewer jumpships travelling to a planet like that, than from planet to planet in the Inner Sphere.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #29 on: 14 June 2018, 00:09:27 »
I pictured a harness system like what they use when a horse hurts it legs. Now I wonder what veterinary needs might be needed for Zero G. Wonder if twisted gut etc might be an issue. Is this horse special to the PC or would any horse do?
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #30 on: 14 June 2018, 02:02:20 »
I want to say there's a canonical variant on a dropship specifically meant for shipping cattle and other agricultural critters.  Maybe of the Princess class?
I agree with the previous posters that avoiding the task of moving full-grown live animals would be the first thought; but since you cannot always avoid it, there ought to be some sort of cattle transport DropShip. I don't recall one mentioned in canon, but I have two designs statted and fluffed should CGL decide to take me up on my offer for another aerospace (X)TRO (working title: TRO:3157 :) ).

One is a large, Star League-era cattle transport built for colonizing purposes. It is conceivable in a universe and time where individual planets were hyper-specialized manufacturing centers and interstellar travel was cheap and plentiful. It is a variant of a large passenger transport for colonists, reconfigured for livestock.

The other design is a much smaller vessel specialized in animal transportation, with large inclosures, extensive medical facilities, all the bells and whistles. This is the kind of ship used when large animals of large value have to be shipped around - the Turin horse breeders would use such ships for their Liao Stallions, the Branthkeepers for Branth, and the Ghost Bears for, well, Ghost Bears. All of these animals have been mentioned to be shipped around on DropShips in canon. (Or on a somewhat more mundane level, Tabiranth or Galisteo Range-bulls.)

I imagine there isn't much difference between life support for humans and life support for animals, so construction rules wise such a lifestock transport DropShip would follow the rules for a passenger DropShip, perhaps with a markup on space/tonnage relative to cargo carried (i.e. the life support and living space for luxury quarters for 10 people would only support 500kg worth of livestock).
Zero-g isn't much of an issue as the DropShip will be operating under thrust most of the time. Handoffs on a pre-arranged bus line, booked months in advance, are the most likely approach. We've seen this done in canon for passenger vessels with the Silver Eagle; switching JumpShips seems to be a fairly common, if perhaps expensive, thing.
« Last Edit: 14 June 2018, 02:03:59 by Frabby »
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Iracundus

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #31 on: 14 June 2018, 05:21:36 »
Please see my post on shipping rice to the stars at https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=vpobojutv59frregd2sp0h9r54&topic=54402.0

For this horse shipping situation, the cost of the jumps alone at the going rate of 50,000 C-bills per jump means 1.55 million C-bills for jumps alone.

There are some unknowns as well since we do not know how long the wait time between jumps will be or whether there will be stopovers at planets.  All of these will add to the costs. 

Frabby

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #32 on: 14 June 2018, 05:55:40 »
Shrug. I've come to regard the stated costs for individual jumps as more of a rough guideline, subject to a zillion factors.

Remember that in this universe, there are still individual Master and Commander-style private captains who own their JumpShip (wholly or in shares). There are small-time merc units whose travel costs for a job would exceed the material value of the entire unit, and larger ones whose turnover from their JumpShip fleet alone should make the mercenary part pale in comparison. Canopian Pleasure Circuses (plural!) roam the Inner Sphere, and House Davion put at least seven JumpShips on the Vagabond School project.

Therefore I have no problem whatsoever to assume that high-profile organisations like the Branthkeepers or the Turin horsebreeders (or the associated megacorporations) would own DropShips and a JumpShips. They might even be operating them at a loss, but consider the benefit to the organisation and its members worth it. And that's the most likely agency to contact when you want to ship a live horse across the Inner Sphere - contact the Turin horse breeders who will likely have the infrastructure sitting around doing nothing when they're not using it themselves. They will probably let you use the service at cost.

Sure, we're looking at niche application here. But let's be honest, those mercenary BattleMechs that are always front and center in BT fiction don't account for a significant share of the total shipping volume either.

Edit: Typos
« Last Edit: 22 June 2018, 01:37:33 by Frabby »
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #33 on: 14 June 2018, 07:13:11 »
That $50,000 cost is for a dropship  being carried per jump. You might be better off chartering a jumpship  with a grav deck capable of creating 1g, and letting the jumpship hire out the docking collars

Then convert one of the cargo areas on the grav deck to a stable. This would remove the stress, and cost of a dropship flying around to simulate gravity. As far as exercise, we now have horse size treadmills put one in there. The biggest thing is keeping it healthy, this means mentally also. Buy a couple cheap riding horses to keep them happy (must resists Friendship is Magic joke). A projector on the wall in front of the treadmill, and some air fresheners of different outdoor scents and I think you would be good.

Yeah, I have paid way to much attention to the local zoo employees tell me what it takes to keep an animal happy in a enclosed environment.
« Last Edit: 14 June 2018, 07:58:37 by Robroy »

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #34 on: 14 June 2018, 07:54:08 »
Just because I'm surprised that no one mentioned this...

Captain Malcolm Reynolds: You ever see cattle stampede when they got no place to run? It’s kinda like a meat grinder.

His ship had gravity. Here, the corrected quote would be "You ever see cattle stampede in zero-G? It's kinda funny... and messy."
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #35 on: 14 June 2018, 08:03:24 »
...a jumpship  with a grav deck capable of creating 1g...
This may not exist. I don't remember if we have firm numbers as to the G ratings of decks, but it's possible verging on likely that you can't get a full 1G outside of the big decks on stations and maybe some WarShips.
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...cargo areas on the grav deck...
This definitely does not exist outside of large stations, and even then I'd be surprised to find one, except maybe on a B5-style habitat station. There's little to no point to put a cargo bay under gravity(and in fact eliminates the best part of space cargo), and you ALWAYS have something else that needs the space.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #36 on: 14 June 2018, 08:07:59 »
I just had a thought. Literally, almost spat out my coffee thinking about it.

An earlier post mentioned the Hells Horses. And that made me realize... the Clans. When we got our look at the Clans, they all were named for animals (Spirits aside). Some were creatures that already existed on the Pentagon worlds, like the cloud cobra. But others didn't, like the jade falcon or hells horse- those were modifed versions of standard Inner Sphere stock.

Fine. But... Kerensky's fleet was in space for a long, LONG time. How the hell did they get falcons and wolves and black widow spiders and such out there? And much more importantly, WHY? What reason would Kerensky have to load wolves on a Dropship to take on the Exodus? Space that could have been used for supplies and such instead used to bring predatory animals?

This never occurred to me until just now, and it's making my brain hurt.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #37 on: 14 June 2018, 08:14:25 »
My money would be on iron wombs and genetic libraries.  I'm sure no live animals were shipped all that way.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #38 on: 14 June 2018, 08:28:33 »
But we know for a fact that large animals are shipped across thousands of light years.

Live Ghost Bears were shipped from Strana Mechty back to the Inner Sphere, for a natural preserve on Alshain. One DropShip crashlanded on Trondheim, and Clan Ghost Bear organized an impromtu Clawing ritual to deal with the problem before the escaped specimen could cause more damage than it already had. (BC Story: The Clawing)
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #39 on: 14 June 2018, 08:31:00 »
I'd imagine that livestock would be shipped in the slings they use to hold dairy cows, the problem is waste, water and feed. 30 something jumps is 6 months travel, that is 6 months of food/water for the herd, and 6 months worth of poo that needs to be shoved out an airlock. Figure daily exercise too, just like exercise in a prison yard, and the dropship would have to be under constant acceleration. A herd of cattle in 0g is going to be messy and dangerous. Your would need a bunch of ranch hands in addition to the ships crew just for that.

Except for the first colonies I doubt you are jumping livestock from 30 jumps away, you are going to go one to 4 jumps tops. No more than a months travel.

A good analog to explore would be the way livestock was moved from Europe to the Americas during colonization. They brought all their livestock in wooden boats, locked in a hold for weeks at a time.

Do livestock get TDS? that would also be a concern.

Now jumping a single horse would be easier, expensive but easier, just need a shipping container to hold it, and daily walks around the dropship hold, which would require the captain use fuel, $$$, and you still have to account for food water and waste. Some dropships have notoriously bad air filtration systems. Crew may toss you and your horse out before you get where you are going.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #40 on: 14 June 2018, 08:33:32 »
But we know for a fact that large animals are shipped across thousands of light years.

Live Ghost Bears were shipped from Strana Mechty back to the Inner Sphere, for a natural preserve on Alshain. One DropShip crashlanded on Trondheim, and Clan Ghost Bear organized an impromtu Clawing ritual to deal with the problem before the escaped specimen could cause more damage than it already had. (BC Story: The Clawing)
Sure, after the Exodus... but on the Exodus itself?  My money is still on the iron womb angle.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #41 on: 14 June 2018, 08:52:33 »
I'd imagine that livestock would be shipped in the slings they use to hold dairy cows, the problem is waste, water and feed. 30 something jumps is 6 months travel, that is 6 months of food/water for the herd, and 6 months worth of poo that needs to be shoved out an airlock. Figure daily exercise too, just like exercise in a prison yard, and the dropship would have to be under constant acceleration. A herd of cattle in 0g is going to be messy and dangerous. Your would need a bunch of ranch hands in addition to the ships crew just for that.

It is not that long if the dropship can keep transferring from one ready Jumpship to another.  For time critical cargo or cargo that effectively spoils, which a prize racehorse presumably qualifies as, this is the best way.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #42 on: 14 June 2018, 09:24:43 »
I just had a thought. Literally, almost spat out my coffee thinking about it.

An earlier post mentioned the Hells Horses. And that made me realize... the Clans. When we got our look at the Clans, they all were named for animals (Spirits aside). Some were creatures that already existed on the Pentagon worlds, like the cloud cobra. But others didn't, like the jade falcon or hells horse- those were modifed versions of standard Inner Sphere stock.

Fine. But... Kerensky's fleet was in space for a long, LONG time. How the hell did they get falcons and wolves and black widow spiders and such out there? And much more importantly, WHY? What reason would Kerensky have to load wolves on a Dropship to take on the Exodus? Space that could have been used for supplies and such instead used to bring predatory animals?

This never occurred to me until just now, and it's making my brain hurt.

Iron wombs for "beneficial invasive species".

If I had Battletech level technology, and I'm setting off on a one way trip to colonize a distant world?  I'm bringing rats and cockroaches.  Why?  Because as much as we hate them, we know what rats and cockroaches do.  We don't know what nasty ass critters live on the colony world.  If there's something too dangerous living on that planet, maybe we see how they deal with a couple million New York City sewer rats.  You unleash something that disrupts the local ecology, and hopefully takes the place of the bad thing.  You'd want an array of different animals because you're not sure what is waiting for you on that world.

For larger predators like lions and tigers and bears, maybe you also bring those because once you have your society up and running, you want zoos.  Get a bunch of fertilized eggs and they just take up a couple shelves in a freezer.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #43 on: 14 June 2018, 09:54:37 »
The ecological equivalent of the devil you know, essentially? That makes sense.Bring herbivores to feed you, and to control local plant life(assuming it's edible), bring predators to control your herbivores and local wildlife, and bring scavengers that you already know how to kill to displace the ones you don't. Humanity as a whole probably collectively wept on the day we realized that not only were we going to be unable to escape terrestrial pests by moving to the stars...but we needed to take them with us. :'(

Given how most terrestrial critters changed in Clan space, I don't EVER want to see a Strana Mechty roach. :o

You wanna have nightmares? Try to imagine landing on a world where roaches and rats tried, but failed to gain a foothold. :yikes:
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #44 on: 14 June 2018, 11:06:45 »
What world did crana come from?  And of course, there's the infamous Proserpina Crop Devil...  ::)

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #45 on: 14 June 2018, 11:33:28 »
The Bears were not the only ones to bring their totems to the IS- each Clan did . . . the Cats brought Nova Cats and they did exist in the wild on their worlds though I imagine the Combine hunts them out after 3140s- or it becomes a Samurai special.  The Diamond Sharks brought both the Diamond Shark and the Sea Fox- in fact it was the switch of the Fox thriving over the Shark in the Inner Sphere that helped prompt the name reversal.  The Wolves have brought Strana Mechty Wolves to the IS, and presumably transferred some from the OZ to the Empire.  Not sure if the Warden Wolves brought theirs with them from the Homeworlds sibkos & Omega, took some of the OZ stock with the legacies, or Trialed for them after the split (explains the Lobo in Warden hands . . . ).  Falcons of course brought Jade Falcons with them, I would think birds might stand up a bit better to zero-G.  Pretty sure Hell's Horses were also transported with the Clan when they made their move, same with the Ravens.

Now we know the Bears brought live specimens . . . and since all are predators and would be released into the wild to survive and adapt on new worlds IMO you need to bring adult specimens for a simple reason.  They would have to teach young how to hunt and how to survive.  Sure you may only bring a few males with mostly females (say 95% fem) . . . and you may have tracking tags on the fems so that when its breeding season you can find them.  Tranq them . . . and either use AI or just transfer embryos to the females, which is a solid plan to promote genetic diversity.  A couple of breeding cycles and you have created a robust wild populations.

Imagine being the scientist handed the responsibility to relocate the Clan's totem to the IS and being given orders from a Warrior who has barely any understanding of biology or genetics.

Finally . . . we are told early on that the Clans brought their own pets to the IS with them, like the surat.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #46 on: 14 June 2018, 11:33:39 »
Something like the trachazoi could probably be kept in check by introducing leopards into the ecosystem.  Leopards are also ambush predators who jump down out of trees, and they'd probably view the trachazoi as an easy meal.  Plus, we know how to control leopards.  Them being larger may make them easier to keep track of.  And maybe it doesn't work, maybe the native life wipes out the big cats.  But then you haven't really lost anything except some frozen embryos and the time required to grow them.

As far as the crana goes, they're attracted to body heat.  I'd suggest using a cold blooded predator to wipe them out.  Komodo dragons might be worth a shot.  Big enough to make the kill, doesn't set off the bugs' instinct to attack, and hungry enough to make a dent in the population.  Or you could try something like a Grizzly.  It might be that their thick coat is enough to prevent the crana's mouthparts from penetrating the skin.  Alternatively, maybe something like a sparrow or a bullfrog will make a huge dent in crana larvae that have just hatched.  Or maybe hyenas or vultures would devour the bodies of crana victims, preventing the eggs from reaching maturity.

You never know what Earth critter might seriously screw up the lifecycle of a dangerous alien.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #47 on: 14 June 2018, 11:56:42 »
But the embryo thing for big predators gets back to how much of their success/behavior is based on learning to hunt & survive from adults.  Look at the problems of introducing captivity bred predators back into the wild- or even wild predators who learn to cheat (Do Not Feed the Bears!).
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #48 on: 14 June 2018, 12:00:39 »
This may not exist. I don't remember if we have firm numbers as to the G ratings of decks, but it's possible verging on likely that you can't get a full 1G outside of the big decks on stations and maybe some WarShips. This definitely does not exist outside of large stations, and even then I'd be surprised to find one, except maybe on a B5-style habitat station. There's little to no point to put a cargo bay under gravity(and in fact eliminates the best part of space cargo), and you ALWAYS have something else that needs the space.

Whoops.  Got my jumpship grav decks confused with warships.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #49 on: 14 June 2018, 12:13:51 »
Well . . . there COULD be a modified JS to get that sort of thing, but the expense of shipping a animal is going to drastically increase.  And where would the demand be for that sort of thing except for colonization efforts.  So yeah . . . modified Star Lord class DS of the late Star League era, operated by BuCol.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #50 on: 14 June 2018, 15:15:03 »
Weren't the majority of Clan fauna native to Strana Mechty or surrounding worlds? They weren't brought along on Exodus.

His ship had gravity. Here, the corrected quote would be "You ever see cattle stampede in zero-G? It's kinda funny... and messy."
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #51 on: 14 June 2018, 15:18:27 »
Some where like the Ghost Bear, Sea Fox, Burrock, and I think Nova Cat . . . others were genetic experiments (Hell's Horses & Diamond Shark) or mutations (Wolf).

But like I said, the Clans that returned brought their totems with them- and supposedly enough genetic diversity to keep the populations healthy.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #52 on: 14 June 2018, 15:29:16 »
so the most cost-effective option is to move to the horses rather than move the horses to you?

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #53 on: 14 June 2018, 16:55:17 »
Sell the horse.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #54 on: 14 June 2018, 19:00:50 »
My money would be on iron wombs and genetic libraries.  I'm sure no live animals were shipped all that way.

Then how did they get the accidental introductions?  Did someone switch labels around and the scientist responsible for growing the critters suddenly say "oh no!  These aren't giraffes, they're giant black widow spiders!"
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #55 on: 14 June 2018, 19:06:44 »
Accidental introductions?   ???

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #56 on: 14 June 2018, 19:15:37 »
Read the first few posts but skimmed the rest.. if we are only talking a few horses here why not just use a small craft. Most jumpships have SC bays and the transport costs would be MUCH MUCH cheaper. Not to mention you can still launch and provide 1g for the animals (or use the extra funds for the JS to provide gravity in its own way). Remember, docking collars run 100,00 c-bills per jump. More if you are the only attached craft. And even using a SC there are plenty of plot hooks you can use and abuse as a GM.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #57 on: 14 June 2018, 19:22:43 »
I want to say there's a canonical variant on a dropship specifically meant for shipping cattle and other agricultural critters.  Maybe of the Princess class?

I can't find the DropShip I thought I was remembering...

but I did find that the transport bay rules in TM (pg 239) account for being used for livestock.  So the problem of transporting a horse, or even a whole herd of horses, is from the point of view of the rules has as simple an answer as throwing tonnage at the problem.
« Last Edit: 14 June 2018, 19:24:42 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #58 on: 14 June 2018, 19:56:11 »
Accidental introductions?   ???

Several of the Clans' totem animals were listed as having been accidentally introduced to Strana Mechty.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #59 on: 14 June 2018, 19:59:49 »
I think that description stretches the limits of "accident", even if live animals were transported for some reason.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #60 on: 14 June 2018, 20:07:36 »
Lots of instances in the lore imply that species can and indeed have been accidentally introduced to new planets for all the same reasons and ways they got introduced to new environments in the real world... that is they just stowed away in ships at one port of call and hopped off again at another.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #61 on: 14 June 2018, 20:08:06 »
I suspect getting them to Strana Mechty wasn't accidental - letting them into the wild was the accident.

As for why on earth they had them in the first place...I could see oversized spiders being used for biotoxin research. Genesplice your bug so you think it'll produce the venom you need, and the resulting critters will grow big enough to milk fairly quickly. Best of all, I don't think anyone will complain when a phase of research is complete and the time comes to destroy that generation of beasts.

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #62 on: 14 June 2018, 20:34:32 »
Then how did they get the accidental introductions?  Did someone switch labels around and the scientist responsible for growing the critters suddenly say "oh no!  These aren't giraffes, they're giant black widow spiders!"

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #63 on: 14 June 2018, 20:48:18 »
"What do we do now!?" "Eh, ****** it, just throw them outside."

Exactly.
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #64 on: 15 June 2018, 03:34:24 »
"What do we do now!?" "Eh, ****** it, just throw them outside."
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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #65 on: 15 June 2018, 04:38:25 »
Okay, a quick peruse of Sarna.net to check the origins of the animals:

Burrock - Dagda or Eden, (Pentagon)
Cloud cobra - Arcadia, (Pentagon)
Coyote - Terran, modified
Sea fox - Strana Mechty
Diamond shark - Terran, genetically engineered
Fire mandrill - Eden, (Pentagon)
Ghost bear - Strana Mechty
Goliath scorpion - Babylon, (Pentagon)
Hell's horse - Terran, modified
Ice hellion - Hector (Kerensky Cluster)
Jade falcon - Terran, modified
Mongoose - Terran
Nova cat - Dagda, (Pentagon)
Smoke jaguar - Terran, modified
Snow raven - Strana Mechty
Star adder - Terran, modified
Steel viper - Arcadia, (Pentagon)
Widowmaker - Terran
Wolf - Terran
Wolverine - Terran
Stone lion - Tokasha

That's 6 Pentagon critters, 3 Strana Mechty natives, 2 other Kerensky Cluster planets, 6 modified Terran breeds, and 4 apparently-normal Terran animals

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #66 on: 15 June 2018, 08:59:25 »
"What do we do now!?" "Eh, ****** it, just throw them outside."

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E. Icaza

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #67 on: 15 June 2018, 11:05:02 »
That reminds me of some console game that a friend was playing where you trained monsters.  Most of them you got in the wild, but some were also available for you to "recruit" from various CDs (music & video), obviously to encourage you to BUY MORE STUFF!!  He was at my house going through my disks looking for rare critters when I asked, "Hey, where do all of the wild monsters you recruit come from?"  As he got a critter that he either didn't want or already had, he'd literally boot if off of a mountain and into the jungle below and his response was, "Eh, I don't know..." 

He absolutely didn't understand why I thought his answer was hilarious.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #68 on: 15 June 2018, 13:05:35 »
Monster Rancher, and it read data streams and tried to interpret them as stats.  It got weird.  The Clans don't got nothin' on the things that came out of that game.

Here's a wild and wooly (or finny) bump upwards to the concept.  How about shipping live fish?  "Captain!  There be whales here!" indeed. (we miss you Scotty)
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

tassa_kay

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #69 on: 15 June 2018, 13:09:29 »
Just as a somewhat related aside, “A Rending of Falcons” notes that Clan Hell’s Horses actually DOES send horses with their warriors on deployments. Malvina Hazen was rather perplexed by the notion. ;D
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Colt Ward

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #70 on: 15 June 2018, 13:16:17 »
Fish have been to space . . . and honestly, I think it is something they should look into more- after all it would be easier to set up aquaculture to feed otters than something like chickens . . .

https://www.universetoday.com/96475/fish-in-space-space-station-gets-an-aquarium/
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #71 on: 15 June 2018, 14:20:27 »
I think the most fun part of the rules for livestock transportation bays is the implication that a chicken weighs the same as a horse which weighs the same as a hipposaur.  You can transport .83 animals per 1 ton of transport bay you have.  Apparently doesn't matter what kind of animal :D

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #72 on: 15 June 2018, 14:28:26 »
Does the hippo taste like chicken though?
Colt Ward
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Shipping a horse across the stars
« Reply #73 on: 15 June 2018, 14:44:54 »
Since hipposaurs are hexapedal, they probably taste just like the famous terran hexapod, the buffalo.  Specifically, its wings.

 

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