The Value of an AC/2

[Charistoph]

You only need so much speed on an AC/2 carrier though.  Chances are a good half of the map is In Range either way, and you'll probably need to stay stationary to combat medium/long range penalties.  It's only really bad because tanks can't climb hills good.

Getting in to position is just as important as being able to pull back.  And since CVs take twice as much MP to change Levels, that builds up over time when compared to the Blackjack which can just leap over it (in most cases).  There's that nasty Tukayyid map that's a pretty deep canyon...

The Clint is actually in the "no jump" category, since the CLNT-2-4T packs twin AC/2s, but your point still stands, and I don't disagree at all. 

So it is, and fixed.

Also, the backup weapons for the Blackjack are great, making it even better, since everyone tries to counter the Blackjack by getting into AC/2 minimum range, only to be confronted with a facefull of medium lasers.

That definitely helps, that's for sure, though, there's that one hex where you're in Minimum or Medium Range.

[garhkal]

You only need so much speed on an AC/2 carrier though.  Chances are a good half of the map is In Range either way, and you'll probably need to stay stationary to combat medium/long range penalties.  It's only really bad because tanks can't climb hills good.

Vehicle wise, Charistoph made the case for me.  Mech wise, even having just a 5 walk, means you can routinely get a +1 TMM for walking backwards...

[Sabelkatten]

Even in a standard small pick-up game a single AC/2 in your force means camping assault mechs becomes a lot less attractive. Especially if it's on a cheap unit so you can get a 3 or 2 gunner. A 2 gunner against a target in heavy woods is just TN8; about 18 hits before ammo runs out.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Even in a standard small pick-up game a single AC/2 in your force means camping assault mechs becomes a lot less attractive. Especially if it's on a cheap unit so you can get a 3 or 2 gunner. A 2 gunner against a target in heavy woods is just TN8; about 18 hits before ammo runs out.

But in this case, isn't the opponent simply opt to hide behind of the terrain and avoid to give the LOS? At least don't let give you clear LOS enough to surely outranges them. Also about 18 hits is 36 damage in total, that's not so neglectable but not that seriously powerful. If you have three or more of them then it's an another story, indeed, but how much rounds you will play?

Well, for the fortifications, I remember that someone says there are immense fortifications but lacks something outranges an AC/2, so a players' mech with AC/2 keep shooting to death for minutes, without got retaliated at all.

[Sabelkatten]

But in this case, isn't the opponent simply opt to hide behind of the terrain and avoid to give the LOS? At least don't let give you clear LOS enough to surely outranges them. Also about 18 hits is 36 damage in total, that's not so neglectable but not that seriously powerful. If you have three or more of them then it's an another story, indeed, but how much rounds you will play?

Well, for the fortifications, I remember that someone says there are immense fortifications but lacks something outranges an AC/2, so a players' mech with AC/2 keep shooting to death for minutes, without got retaliated at all.

Camping outside LOS is a much smaller problem than camping in superior cover. In the first case you should either be able to move around the obstacle to get LOS, or if that's not possible the terrain is so restricted that long-range units shouldn't be there at all!

The second case is where the opponent takes a bunch of slow units and just moves into the best cover he can find near his map edge and then complains when you don't rush him. That is where a decent chance of a TAC without the enemy being able to retaliate is nice.

[OatsAndHall]

But in this case, isn't the opponent simply opt to hide behind of the terrain and avoid to give the LOS? At least don't let give you clear LOS enough to surely outranges them. Also about 18 hits is 36 damage in total, that's not so neglectable but not that seriously powerful. If you have three or more of them then it's an another story, indeed, but how much rounds you will play?

Well, for the fortifications, I remember that someone says there are immense fortifications but lacks something outranges an AC/2, so a players' mech with AC/2 keep shooting to death for minutes, without got retaliated at all.

You're not wrong. But, if they're avoiding the AC/2 fire, you've dictated their movement with a reasonably cheap unit. It's analogous to using BA to spot cheap LRM Carrier IDF.  Some players will avoid the BA at all costs as they don't want to give up cheap IDF equations. Or, they'll charge them and I'll get a few turns of fun out of it. Either way, they're reacting to me, not vice versa.

[Charistoph]

It depends on the fire support unit, too.  An LRM boat can stay out of sight, avoiding the AC/2, but that means it's adding a minimum +1 To-Hit to do so, and that's only if they have Infantry or another motionless unit with a clear LOS.  If they're relying on a VTOL (aside from TAG) or a unit like a Locust, you're looking at Walking or Running AMMs being tacked on.  That also means that the Spotter will likely be taking that AC/2 fire.  Meanwhile, a Blackjack can be flanking with its Jump Jets to force that LRM Boat out of cover.

A direct fire support unit like the Awesome, Marauder, or GunNerdslinger, has to have the same line of sight the AC/2 has, and aside from the Gauss, the AC/2 is plinking outside of the response range.

With rare exception, there is a use for every tool.  That use may not come up often in the scenarios you play (A-Pods, for example), but a good player is only concerned with making the most of what you're stuck with.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well I do think that 'good' and 'bad' tools do exists. But I don't think that most bad tools is just entirely useless, for most of them are rated to be bad because those are outshadowed by the others on the most times for it is either has inferior statline and/or needs more situational setup to apply - and it's the actual difference for good and bad tools. If there is the niche fit for those, sometimes those are even better than the good tools. Even for the one with inferior stats, the fact that usually those things are the cheaper solution makes some niche to consider this.

Still few of those are extremely hard to find a niche or even worse than the other bad tools for the same case even on its niche, but usually most of those bad tools are does have some corner case to be useful.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I've played with most of those mechs and the Warriors a handful of times. I enjoy the Blackjack because he's just friggin' obnoxious.

The Blackjack is also hilarious because if you do manage to close, you’ve fallen into his trap, because his four MLs are actually his primary battery.

[CrossfirePilot]

I have had a couple of occasions where I have had some AC2 nick me with a CT TAC and take out my gyro.  very irritating.

[Cannonshop]

I have had a couple of occasions where I have had some AC2 nick me with a CT TAC and take out my gyro.  very irritating.

That's what I'd call 'the bonus' rather than the point of the weapon.  The 'point' of the weapon, is to cheaply degrade an enemy unit's capability at long enough range that by the time he can shoot back, he's vulnerable in ways he didn't expect to be when he dropped onto the field.

If you've ever run an "Ironman" series of engagements, where the only thing you can restock between sessions is ammo, this becomes readily apparent.  Pre-existing damage to elimination can really highlight  how 'lesser weapons' can become decisive advantages.

[Martius]

It has its place. Every hit matters and being able to hit first is important- so it is more than a 'Gefechtslärmverstärker' (=Battlesoundamplifier. Kinda.).

[Sabelkatten]

I have had a couple of occasions where I have had some AC2 nick me with a CT TAC and take out my gyro.  very irritating.

This is really the big factor in getting campers to move rather than just damage.

To take my earlier example; a single AC/2 on a cheap unit with a good gunner that can expect 18 hits burning through a ton of ammo sniping from 24 hexes. 36 damage spread across all locations isn't that much on an assault mech - but if one of those hits are a gyro TAC? Or a head hit that KO the pilot? In the first case that assault mech can now expect to spend most of the fight prone, in the second the "AC/2 force" can rush in and salvo everything against an immobile target for (probably) quite a lot of damage!

So do you stand in your nice heavy wood hex and take the AC/2 fire and risk the fight effectively being over before you fire a shot, or do you move out?

[wundergoat]

This is really the big factor in getting campers to move rather than just damage.

To take my earlier example; a single AC/2 on a cheap unit with a good gunner that can expect 18 hits burning through a ton of ammo sniping from 24 hexes. 36 damage spread across all locations isn't that much on an assault mech - but if one of those hits are a gyro TAC? Or a head hit that KO the pilot? In the first case that assault mech can now expect to spend most of the fight prone, in the second the "AC/2 force" can rush in and salvo everything against an immobile target for (probably) quite a lot of damage!

So do you stand in your nice heavy wood hex and take the AC/2 fire and risk the fight effectively being over before you fire a shot, or do you move out?

If I do not have a reason to continue to hold the position (like the battle has moved on), then I move out.  There is no reason to continue to take damage.

If I have a reason to continue to hold the position (like there being combat I am actively and effectively contributing to), then I hold.  It will take a lot more than an AC/2 to get me to shift.

If I have a reason to control the position but do not need to hold it right now, I seek hard cover like a hill or something.  As long as I can get back to the position faster than my opponent can take advantage of it, I'm functionally in that position.

[garhkal]

It has its place. Every hit matters and being able to hit first is important- so it is more than a 'Gefechtslärmverstärker' (=Battlesoundamplifier. Kinda.).

True that.   ITS always best to damage your opponent BEFORE they can damage you!

[CrossfirePilot]

I would 100% trade an AC/2 for an AC/5 every chance I get. A 3025 Rifleman is more useful to me with 2 AC/2s and some extra armor than 2 AC/5s

[Daryk]

That's what the thread I posted up at reply #9 was all about... :)

[Starfury]

A single AC/2 by itself is not a big threat, especially in beer and pretzel games.   The same can be said for an LRM-5. However, multiple AC/2s can add up to an effective threat when either use specialized ammo or as part of a combined long range attack. The Mauler's AC/2s are nasty when used to add to the two ER Largers and LRM-15 batteries because they can take advantage of scatter damage from the 15s, are low heat and can be fired every round.  An AC/2 carrier or a Pike acts as a well armored harassment unit, to say nothing of Warrior lances.  Of course terrain and cover can make an AC/2's (of any type) range redundant (Devil's Bath, hills, etc), but that's true of any long range direct fire weapon.  The AC/2 does become harder and harder to use as the tech base advances, but Hypervelocity, LB-2xs, RAC/2s, LAC/2s and Ultras make for a good replacement.

TL DR, use AC/2s en masse especially on cheap and mobile platforms combined with other long range guns and add in specialty ammo as you can. 

[Daryk]

With the exception of the HVACs, I agree with that list! :)

[Starfury]

Personally I'd love a Hypervelocity AC/20, but that's getting a bit far afield. I have gotten solid results with combining Extended Range LRMs and Hypervelocity AC/2s together, but that requires a lot of tonnage and investment.  I'm kind of surprised no one has made a Mech that combines both with stealth armor, or a devoted AC/2 carrier with stealth armor as well. 

[Cannonshop]

Personally I'd love a Hypervelocity AC/20, but that's getting a bit far afield. I have gotten solid results with combining Extended Range LRMs and Hypervelocity AC/2s together, but that requires a lot of tonnage and investment.  I'm kind of surprised no one has made a Mech that combines both with stealth armor, or a devoted AC/2 carrier with stealth armor as well.

People don't normally intentionally put a 1 in 36 chance of detonation every time you fire it bomb on their dedicated combat units.  the drawback for the HVAC, is that unlike a UAC, which only jams the HVAC explodes, taking the location with it.

which is a bit harder to fix, than a jam, y'know.

[abou]

With the exception of the HVACs, I agree with that list! :)

I don't know... heating, ventilation, and air conditioning are probably pretty important to manage in a combat setting.

In all seriousness, I don't think I saw anyone mention anti-air capabilities. In a single pick-up game of 'mech on 'mech combat, the AC/2 may not offer too much; however, once you bring in other units types the game can change rapidly.  Any advantage against aerospace can be critical and the range is the most important.

The AC/2 may be a big threat to lightly armored, fast movers like a Locust or Stinger: despite the range negating TMM, you still aren't forcing piloting rolls. With aero, you are forcing a control roll. I think that is pretty important.

[Dapper Apples]

I remember looking over the HVAC family and it looked like either the 5 or 10 were just inferior to a light gauss.  The gauss was lighter, did better damage at similar/better range, and didn't explode as much.

[Wolf72]

plop your HVACs on an infantry platoon.

Did someone ask about a dedicated AC-2 carrier? the Bane carries 8 of them.  Does not have stealth, but you could play around and get an ECM on there if you wanted.

[Balian d’Ibelin]

There’s little tactical value but taking fire, especially if they are unable to respond to it, bothers people IME. I’ve had Warrior VTOLs and Clints draw my opponents forces out as chasers, or keep them from camping.

[Starfury]

People don't normally intentionally put a 1 in 36 chance of detonation every time you fire it bomb on their dedicated combat units.  the drawback for the HVAC, is that unlike a UAC, which only jams the HVAC explodes, taking the location with it.

which is a bit harder to fix, than a jam, y'know.

Sure they do.  Hence why the Goliath 3M has 400 rounds of MG ammo in an XL equipped mech...

[ImperialistDog]

Ask not the value of an AC/2.  Ask the value of a company of AC/2, nay a battalion of AC/2.  One AC/2 is an annoyance, a dozen AC/2 from a light tank company firing en-echelon is dangerous, three dozen putting rounds down-range every round is murderous.

Really just try it, a simple 30 ton 3/5 ICE infantry tank company in close order line.  Firing at an approaching lance of 3025 lights and mediums on a map big enough that they have to cross the entire range of the AC/2.  It's a vicious spectacle.

[Cannonshop]

Sure they do.  Hence why the Goliath 3M has 400 rounds of MG ammo in an XL equipped mech...

It requires enemy action (weapons hitting) to set off that ammo.

The HVAC explodes randomly, by just the act of firing it.

This can happen at the testing range, or on the practice range against nonsentient, not-shooting-back targets.  This WILL happen during training cycles, thus depriving you of the value of those training cycles (though it does give good practice to your depot-level repair and salvage crew.)

an Ultra can avoid jamming by not double-tapping.  HVAC makes that 'explosion roll' every time you pull the trigger.

In essence, it's less reliable or safe than a 16th century Leather gun.

[Retry]

Personally I'd love a Hypervelocity AC/20, but that's getting a bit far afield. I have gotten solid results with combining Extended Range LRMs and Hypervelocity AC/2s together, but that requires a lot of tonnage and investment.  I'm kind of surprised no one has made a Mech that combines both with stealth armor, or a devoted AC/2 carrier with stealth armor as well.

HVACs and ELRMs on the same platform is rather redundant (and extremely heavy, even at the bare minimum) so there's little point in combining the two.

Combined with the involuntary immolation "feature" that HVACs bring...