anyone ever thought of a 4xSRM6 SW-era Dervish variant?

[iamfanboy]

OK, the Dervish in SW-era fights is a dog. Not TERRIBLE, and at least it isn't burdened with 100 shots of Streak ammo, but not good either.

But what if you stripped out the SRM-2s, LRM-10s, and swapped in 4 SRM-6s?

I mean, the whole reason I like the Kintaro is for its battery of SRMs; being able to pump out that many missiles on a fairly mobile chassis... just makes me smile.

Maybe toss out a ton or two of SRM ammo for some more armor protection, and I might just be on to something here....

What do you think?

[Siberian-troll]

4xSRM-6 too good.
Shove into 14 SRM-2s  ;)
Overheat will be your problem anyway.

[iamfanboy]

4xSRM-6 too good.
Shove into 14 SRM-2s  ;)
Overheat will be your problem anyway.

C'mon, just because the dervish is clunky and ugly doesn't mean it can't have a good variant... Heck, does it get one even in the TRO 3050U? *checks*

Does the -9D still have an XL engine? Well, I guess for a primarily fire-support 'Mech an XL isn't too bad, so the -8D with 4x ERML, targeting computer, and 2x LRM-15 is usable.

[Siberian-troll]

T-comp only for 4 mlasers? Give it 4 LPPCs, or take a Blackjack-OX

[deathshadow]

You don't need to strip that much out to get six-packs on there. My solution was always to swap the -10's for a trio of -5's... that frees up four tons, more than enough to swap out the -2's for -6's... making the existing ammo tonnages a bit more sensible.

Though you have to mind your firing brackets. Four sixes are kinda hard to lean on, a pair is much more manageable while not having to sacrifice much in the 'long' department.

[Fersoltil]

One of my co-gamers modded his Dervish to carry 8 or 9 SSRM-2s. He got to be our tank killer.

[garhkal]

I would rather Streak 4 packs over straight srm-6s..  Same weight, 1 less crit each.

[deathshadow]

I would rather Streak 4 packs over straight srm-6s..  Same weight, 1 less crit each.

Do people not get the "SW-Era" part?

Admittedly, I'm saying go 2x instead of 4x, but still.

[Lorcan Nagle]

I did almost this exact thing for a Solaris bring and battle last year where Intro Tech customs were allowed.  I stripped out the LRMs and SRM 2s for 3 SRM 6 racks with 3 tons of ammo (2 regular, 1 inferno)and some heat sinks.  I think I added some more medium lasers too.  It was bloody nasty, had a hard heat curve to ride but was able to switch between holepunching, crit seeking and harassment easily.

[Decoy]

....the 7D is a bad variant? Granted, the 6M is a tinderbox, but I'd take it into battle....then again, I'd take a SHD-2D Shadow Hawk into battle...

[Moonsword]

T-comp only for 4 mlasers? Give it 4 LPPCs, or take a Blackjack-OX

Uh, yeah, let's take a 5 ton close range weapon system and replace it with 12 tons of LPPCs.  Wait, what?

Personally, I lean toward removing the SRM 2s for a pair of medium lasers and two more tons of armor.  If you're going to make a close combat variant, though... four SRM 4s, not massed 6s, with some extra armor.  Part of the reason the 6M can, to some extent, get away with its thin armor is it's not normally going toe to toe with people.  A close combat variant isn't going to have that luxury.

[Youngblood]

So, we're trying to make a Dervish more like a Whitworth or a Regulan SRM Trebuchet variant?  I'm all for it.  The heat management might need a little finesse, but otherwise nice--I wish the Inner Sphere had more SRM boats for cavalry lance support, really.  There's no modern Inner Sphere SRM boat concept, either, nothing like what the original Clan Arctic Wolf can do.

EDIT: Partial lie.  Some of the MML designs out there are sick, wrong, and amazing at the same time, but there aren't many that I'd trust to back up some AC/20-carrying slashers.

[Moonsword]

So, we're trying to make a Dervish more like a Whitworth or a Regulan SRM Trebuchet variant?  I'm all for it.  The heat management might need a little finesse, but otherwise nice--I wish the Inner Sphere had more SRM boats for cavalry lance support, really.  There's no modern Inner Sphere SRM boat concept, either, nothing like what the original Clan Arctic Wolf can do.

The Trebuchet TBT-6S is not a Regulan variant in either TRO3025 or TRO3039, but basically, yes.

As far as an Arctic Wolf, you're not going to get more than an approximation, really, due to the launcher size difference.  If you're building a Capellan unit, though, the Snake, with an LB 10-X and the Streaks, can do something similar.

[garhkal]

I would rather Streak 4 packs over straight srm-6s..  Same weight, 1 less crit each.

Do people not get the "SW-Era" part?

Admittedly, I'm saying go 2x instead of 4x, but still.

DOH>....  Forgot 4 streaks were not SW era.

[Moonsword]

Streaks in general aren't.

[iamfanboy]

Well, all I have now is SW-era machines (aside from a Stone Rhino and a Horned Owl) so I was going to keep the players using my 'Mechs mostly in that area - if they want to use another 'Mech (for example, one buddy likes the Avatar) I design a downgraded version for them.

Once the Clan box comes out, THEN I'll upgrade to 3050+ tech. I've got no objection to advanced tech (unlike some folks), but it IS easier to keep track of SW-era weapons.

[garhkal]

I thought the 2 streak was..

[Moonsword]

Early Succession Wars, maybe.  By the end of the 2nd Succession War, outside of ComStar's armories or the Clans, it had gone the way of the dodo.

[Paladin1]

OK, the Dervish in SW-era fights is a dog. Not TERRIBLE, and at least it isn't burdened with 100 shots of Streak ammo, but not good either.

But what if you stripped out the SRM-2s, LRM-10s, and swapped in 4 SRM-6s?

I mean, the whole reason I like the Kintaro is for its battery of SRMs; being able to pump out that many missiles on a fairly mobile chassis... just makes me smile.

Maybe toss out a ton or two of SRM ammo for some more armor protection, and I might just be on to something here....

What do you think?

Wait a minute, you want to take a design that is built to stand off and pummel an enemy with long range firepower and turn it into a close range brawler?

Have you looked at the DV-6M's armor?  That's just going to get your pilot killed.  If you want a close range brawler, get a Wolverine or Shadow Hawk and modify it.  Dervishes are support 'Mechs, not brawlers, so they don't have very thick armor.

[Moonsword]

I seem to recall saying something about that...

Personally, I lean toward removing the SRM 2s for a pair of medium lasers and two more tons of armor.  If you're going to make a close combat variant, though... four SRM 4s, not massed 6s, with some extra armor.  Part of the reason the 6M can, to some extent, get away with its thin armor is it's not normally going toe to toe with people.  A close combat variant isn't going to have that luxury.

[iamfanboy]

And I think in my original post I mentioned ditching two tons of ammo for two more tons of armor - 9.5 tons being more than enough for a SW-era medium.

So, not as crazy as it sounds first blush.

[Paladin1]

I seem to recall saying something about that...

Okay, so I somehow missed that post.   :-[

I agree though that if you're going to go CQC, you need more armor.  SRM-4s may be the best bet, or a mix of SRMs and MLs much like you posted.

[Paladin1]

And I think in my original post I mentioned ditching two tons of ammo for two more tons of armor - 9.5 tons being more than enough for a SW-era medium.

So, not as crazy as it sounds first blush.

It's a start, but the next thing you're going to run into is a need for HS.  I'd say swap out the LRMs and SRMs for 4xSRM-4s, two more tons of armor and four more HS.  That should give you something to work with.

[Sockmonkey]

Ah, my beloved old Dervish. You never forget your first. I liked to do like Moonsword and mount 4 MLs, allthough I'd add only one extra ton of armor since the engine was big enough to fit an 11th sink without taking extra crits. When possible I'd snipe with the LRMs untill they were expended, then race in to brawl with the lasers once I didn't have to worry about ammo explosions. That extra sink made a noticable difference then. Let me squeeze in one more round firing all lasers before having to back of to cool.

[Moonsword]

The sink is nice, but I prefer to stack armor heavily.

[Sockmonkey]

Yeah, it was a tricky choice to make but I decided to rely on Rookie's luck and it's jumpy-ness for protection.
Whenever it was allowed by the GM I'd swap out the two LRM10s for a quad of 5s and only load each with a half-ton of ammo. I suppose you could call that a bit munchy, but man two more tons of armor was pretty swwet.

[Kit deSummersville]

There's a Catapult out there with a similar load.

[Moonsword]

It's not quite as fast, though.

[Kit deSummersville]

Very true.

[Sockmonkey]

The speed spoiled me. To this day I can't stand using anything below 4/6 no matter how powerful it is.

[deathshadow]

The speed spoiled me. To this day I can't stand using anything below 4/6 no matter how powerful it is.

Heh, I'm that way with anything that can't manage 5/8... I can use them, but generally I just lumber those forward for use as diversions/shell traps while keeping my fast movers hopping around laterally behind the heavier force.

[DaveMac]

Or only replace 1 LRM10 with 2 SRM4s and use it to provide extra close up muscle in a missile based fire support lance.

I've seen Archers used in a similar way or even with all LRMS replaced with SRMs.

Nasty! 

[Hellraiser]

Or only replace 1 LRM10 with 2 SRM4s and use it to provide extra close up muscle in a missile based fire support lance.

The only issue I see with this is the lack of compatability w/ the Arm mounted SRM2's.
So I'd probably do SRM2's and share ammo w/ the existing ones.


Though If I was doing a refit I wouldn't go 4xSRM6,  heat is too much of a problem,  better to just do a Pair and use the remaining tonnage for Armor & Heatsinks.

[Moonsword]

I should clarify that my suggestion was to replace all the launchers with four SRM 4s, not just the LRMs.  If you're going to be a brawler, don't mess around and do the job.

[iamfanboy]

Or, on the way of being a simpler refit, what about pulling the SRM-2s and the MLs in favor of 2x SRM-4s? Drop one ton of ammo for a ton of armor and you've got a not-too-bad variant.

Or just 4x MLs and +2 tons of armor? Yeah, you'd be riding the heat curve when it comes time to close in, but if you fire off all your LRMs first ammo explosions aren't exactly a worry.


After careful consideration of how I use the Dervish, I'm reluctant to pull the LRMs entirely - I tend to like them as leader of a light fire lance with Valkyries. Similar movement profiles, similar range profiles, they just work well together. It's the SRM-2s that hold back the Dervish IMHO. SRM-2s are just a bad idea, especially without CASE; they're just an ammo explosion waiting to happen. That 4 tons can be put to much better uses... say, upping the LRM-10s to -15s?

[garhkal]

I could see the dropping the 1 LRM for paired SRM4s...

[Sockmonkey]

Or, on the way of being a simpler refit, what about pulling the SRM-2s and the MLs in favor of 2x SRM-4s? Drop one ton of ammo for a ton of armor and you've got a not-too-bad variant.

Or just 4x MLs and +2 tons of armor? Yeah, you'd be riding the heat curve when it comes time to close in, but if you fire off all your LRMs first ammo explosions aren't exactly a worry.


After careful consideration of how I use the Dervish, I'm reluctant to pull the LRMs entirely - I tend to like them as leader of a light fire lance with Valkyries. Similar movement profiles, similar range profiles, they just work well together. It's the SRM-2s that hold back the Dervish IMHO. SRM-2s are just a bad idea, especially without CASE; they're just an ammo explosion waiting to happen. That 4 tons can be put to much better uses... say, upping the LRM-10s to -15s?

The first is a standard mod I think. The second I think you're better off with an extra HS, as I've stated. The third is great as long as you can make most of your LRM shots count. After that You'd need to run or hope it's speed and jumpyness would let you get in a backshot. Heck, with minor mods, Dervishes can cover just about every role passably well.

[TJHairball]

Why not believe in 2xSRM-4, 2xSRM-6, and +4 HS?

The Dervish does have a bit of a heat issue. Good modifications need to address that.

[Moonsword]

Why not believe in 2xSRM-4, 2xSRM-6, and +4 HS?

My main objection to that is the lack of common ammo bins.  In addition, another two tons of armor seems apropos if you're going to be spending your battlefield time getting up in someone's grille.

[Sockmonkey]

Agreed. With only missles you don't need the extra sinks that bad, but you do need the protection for your ammo.

[Moonsword]

There's twelve tons of launchers in there.  Four SRM 4s leave room for four more heat sinks as well as additional armor.

[House Davie Merc]

Personally, I lean toward removing the SRM 2s for a pair of medium lasers and two more tons of armor. 

This right here .  Exactly .

Adding 32 armor points to a mech that only carries 120 is a huge improvement .

Dumping 2 tons of ammo is even better .

If that's how the Derish was done in the first place then IMHO they would see
a LOT more table time.

As is I very rarely see a Dervish on the game table  and I've never seen one used
in a Battle Value balanced game .

The last time I saw one used at all was with inferno ammo under the BMR rules
back when you could light fires with the standard tournament level rules.
Without that ability the DV-6M is a dog that isn't worth it's cost .

[Moonsword]

I'll use one occasionally depending on what I'm trying to do.  But yeah, they cost a lot for what they deliver.  Those SRMs just aren't worth the annoyance for what they deliver.  Notably, my favorite Dervish is the DV-8D, where they finally stopped horsing around, stuffed four ERMLs on, and then used an XLFE to bump the missile and armor load up considerably.  The DV-9D isn't bad, either, although you need to make damn sure the CT is carrying LRMs and empty that bin quickly.  Tempting Murphy is not wise.

[Sockmonkey]

I think it got a bad rap early on because it's trying to be a jack of all trades. Long range, short range, energy, crit-seeking, plus being fairly quick and jumpy for a 55 ton mech of that era.
All that was paid for with the least armor of any mech that size, which makes it too risky to use it's close-range weapons, thus taking away the versitility it's already paid so dearly for.

MLs and SRMs aren't a bad close range combo. The heat is reasonable, and the "poke holes then sandblast" tactic is widely acknowledged as a  being effective.

It's a decent mech once it's modded but I think people tend to shy away from a design that you needs mods from the get-go because it feels like cleaning up someone else's mess rather than customization. Plus the fact that in a lot of scenarios you have to start with the basic model and can't head into the shop for mods untill you're a few battles into the campaign.

Had the Dervish initially been made as a 4/6/4 or a 5/8/0 and devoted that tonnage to armor, it would probably have been one of the most commonly used designs. With the newer tech available, a mech can now sucessfully do what it failed to do in the beginning.
As it stands, it's a design that was either ahead of it's time, or that just tried to do too much.

I still love the crazy thing though. [rockon]

[Moonsword]

MLs and SRMs aren't a bad close range combo. The heat is reasonable, and the "poke holes then sandblast" tactic is widely acknowledged as a  being effective.

The problem is that SRM 2s tend to deliver a single hit most of the time, so at that point, I'm more inclined to just take another laser and deal with the heat.  Those quad SRM 4 models I suggested are intended to exploit this properly by throwing enough clusters down range to crit-seek effectively.

[Sockmonkey]

Yeah, I favor the 4 ML version + hands myself as well. 4 SRM4s will make most mechs cry if you're willing to sacrifice long range, but I'd probably put CASE on at least the torso mounted ones if it's available.
The lack of hands on the original always bugged me.