Author Topic: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!  (Read 6570 times)

Phobos101

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Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« on: 20 June 2018, 02:15:07 »
 I have been playing for around three years now, and am at the stage where I know my way around the rules pretty well (at least the Battlemech side of things), and would like to fill out my tactical playbook a little. I'm not talking about shortcuts and hacks like boxes of death and movement dice, I'm after playstyle advice. Common mistakes and how to avoid making them. Plays that work. Ways to pick lances that work well together. The thought processes that lead you into victory.
So what do you say? If you could give a couple of tips of how to play a better game, what would they be? I look forward to seeing your responses.

Kojak

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #1 on: 20 June 2018, 04:00:11 »
- Unify your movement rates; don't run lances that have variable rates. That's how individual units get isolated and killed piecemeal.
- Don't jump if running will work, don't run if walking will work. Relatedly, always try to make sure a unit's TMM is higher than, or at least even with, its AMM.
- Always think at least one move ahead with any given movement. When you move a unit, make sure you're moving it in a way that exploits the previous rule, and simultaneously sets it up to do so on the next turn (ideally in more than one direction for more potential options).
- Concentrate fire (if you're not running a Clan force). Eventually you'll start to get a feel for the amount of firepower you have to throw at something to take it out of play, so you waste fewer shots on already-killed units, but on the whole it's better to err on the side of too much than too little.
-  Move your slowest units, and units furthest from the fighting, first; move your most mobile and most engaged units last. This seems obvious but you'd be surprised how often people fail to grasp this.
- Fire your weapons in order from highest damage clump to lowest damage clump in order to maximize crit chances. Again, seemingly obvious but it's not always immediately clear to players.


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Weirdo

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #2 on: 20 June 2018, 09:39:59 »
Don't be afraid to not shoot.

I've seen people avoid prime opportunities to get around someone's flank(or even behind them completely), because doing so meant spending a turn behind cover, and they didn't feel right if a unit wasn't firing something at an enemy unit every round. I've similarly seen folks have ludicrously good shots on a target refuse to go for an overheating alpha strike even if it meant decent odds of crippling or lethal damage, because doing so would mean a strong need to spend the next turn under cover to cool down.

You need aggressiveness and caution both, but an excess of either will hurt your game. It's not a waste of BV for a unit to forgo firing for the occasional turn, if it means success before or after it.

----------

It's part of the nature of a game where mechs are the stars of the show, and often the bigger the mech, the bigger the star - people will often pay more attention to mechs than to conventional units, and will similarly pay more attention to bigger and flashier mechs than they will smaller, more workhorse designs. You can use this to your advantage, drawing attention away from more vulnerable units, giving them more freedom to get into a good position intact.

Note: This is by no means foolproof. Some folks just won't be fooled by this(though in my experience these people are uncommon), and if you do it regularly to the same player, odds are they'll catch on eventually.
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RoundTop

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #3 on: 20 June 2018, 09:43:02 »
I'll disagree about differing movement rates, depending on the size, this can be useful. Now sticking a 3/5 with 3 6/9 units, that is silly.  But having a 3/5, 4/6, 5/8, and 7/11 works.  As long as your 3/5 unit is long ranged.

The other consideration to think about is optimal range. Given your weapons and your opponents weapons, what is the optimal range for you to hit them, and them to not hit you. eg: You have ER Medium lasers and they have regular medium lasers. So range 4, 7-8, and 10-12 are your happy place. Try to keep at those ranges.  If it is reversed, don't play to their strengths... so don't go for the extra +1 TMM if it puts you in a closer range bracket for them but not for you.

LRM players love 7 and 11-14 hex ranges. It is long range to shoot them with mlas and SRMs, and at 11-14 long range for large lasers and AC/10s (and 13-14 for non-ER PPCs).  So get to know each units weapons, and opponents weapons and figure out what ranges to best fight at.
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Boomer8

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #4 on: 20 June 2018, 14:24:36 »
Learn your weapons: Heat, Damage, Ranges (HDR). Once you have those down cold, you can evaluate any Mech's potential by knowing the loadout, heat sinks, and movement rates. For example, a 6/9/6 with HDR of 20/28/5/10/15 that has 14 DHS is going to be more effective than an 8/12(16)/0 with HDR 20/28/5/10/15 that has 20 SHS, because the fast mover will generate heat scale very turn it uses all of it's weapons. This is the simple way to evaluate Mechs, there are other factors that contribute, but a fast glance can give you this info for your comparison.
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Kovax

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #5 on: 20 June 2018, 16:05:00 »
First rule of engagement in my opinion is concentration of fire (unless you play Clan by Zellbringen rules).  Try to utilize cover and position your units along avenues of fire so that as many of your own units have decent shots as possible on a single enemy unit, while the other enemy units are blocked from firing at your own units.  As long as an enemy isn't shooting at any of your units, it's not contributing to the fight.

On the other hand, positioning a unit for the next turn, so that it can maneuver to get an ideal shot (such as a backshot on a HBK) on the next turn can sometimes pay off handsomely, even if it means not being able to fire on the current turn.  Positioning for next turn also means leaving yourself with more than one movement option, so if things suddenly get ugly, you're not committed to edging down a steep hill toward an opponent that has just pulled an SRM Carrier out from behind the woods where it was hidden, and where turning around to go back UP the hill would expose your rear armor.

As pointed out, keeping to ranges that favor your own weapons more than those of the opponent means better to-hit numbers, increasing the odds of doing more damage than you receive.  Calculating movement to maximize the to-hit number difference between your own shots and the opponent's again skews the odds in your favor.  Be aware of minimum ranges: running a light unit up to 2 hexes from an LRM Carrier means TERRIBLE odds for the opponent to hit you with its main weapons (and minimal or no secondary weapons), while your own short-range weapons (such as Medium Lasers and SRMs) have short-range shots.  Backshooting an AWS, as another example, can be quite effective, as the 'Mech has only an arm-mounted PPC that it can turn back toward you, and that has a minimum range that will render that single shot a lot less likely to connect.  While you're just standing there loitering for the rest of the turn, a kick or punch can ruin their day if it causes a fall or hits the right location.  Of course, if the enemy has a second AWS standing 4-5 hexes from the first, you might be in short range of a weapon you'd rather not have pointed in your direction.

Of course, the most important rule in Battletech combat is: roll well.  A good die roll or two can easily turn the tide of an otherwise poorly played game.

Minemech

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #6 on: 20 June 2018, 19:14:25 »
 If you prefer lance battles, try to mix some larger games in the fold. Large games force you to think somewhat differently, as you have to plan for many movements in play. They can offer perspective for when you play the smaller games. Company vs company has quite the different feel from lance vs lance. Battalion level can truly challenge your thought process, particularly when you have to assign randomly selected mechs to viable lances.

 Tech 1 remains a good testing ground.

 Random mech games can force you to rethink if you use units well. Some units require more abstract thought than others to use properly, but reward those who can use them. This does not mean you have to, or will abandon straightforward units.

 Never lose sight of the whole battle. In fact, Weirdo gives good hints as to some of what this includes.

 Outside of the game, play games like Go, do Crossword puzzles, read fine literature, study history, practice sketching, and so forth. Try to learn languages and some philosophy. It actually influences playstyle. Other hobbies synchronize with your playstyle.

 Consider diversifying the types of units you play with.

 This is less to give you individual items, and more to tell you tools that some players use to build their skills.

Son of Kerenski

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #7 on: 20 June 2018, 23:18:01 »
Without knowing specifics I usually go for a combination of the following as Ive found it works well in most situations:

1 or 2 long range sniper types (Awesomes, Archers etc)
1 or 2 skirmisher mid range units (Dragons Thunderbolts)
And 1 quick backstabby (eg Hermes or Mongoose MPL) or fast, brute-force unit (Blitzkrieg).

That combo is usually where I start and go from there in lance combats.

Kitsune413

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #8 on: 20 June 2018, 23:27:32 »
Find SteveRestless and FoxxIttal and play a ton of games of megamek. Then be reflective about the results.
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Paul

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #9 on: 21 June 2018, 07:58:03 »
A key concept is firepower reduction.

Target fragile units they have with lots of firepower. Fragile would be low armor, lots of ammo or gauss Frits, IS XL engines.
The converse: rotate your own units, so that they rarely get to hit the same unit twice. This forces them to either expend high to hit numbers chasing the damaged unit, or that they keep shooting fresh armor. Either works.

Don’t underestimate what it takes to kill a next. If you think you need 100 damage, commit 200. Overkill isn’t a dirty word.
Similarly, some mechs aren’t with killing. Hunchback with an AC20 crit? He gets to live for a while.
That idea can also be a strength: start charging with that HBk, make them kill it while your better units live.

Everything is a strength when applied correctly.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

Kovax

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #10 on: 21 June 2018, 09:20:00 »
There are easily a hundred different tips and tricks that can work to improve your odds of winning.  The hardest part to master is figuring out which of those often mutually exclusive approaches to use in the current situation.  Only experience will impart that kind of understanding, but you still need to know the tricks.

Colt Ward

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #11 on: 21 June 2018, 10:26:08 »
Find SteveRestless and FoxxIttal and play a ton of games of megamek. Then be reflective about the results.

This can work out really well for you in general . . . I had a lot of fun playing folks internationally . . . yes, I said internationally.  The variety of opponents and play styles you can face will improve your game simply because of exposure.  I used to regularly play the winner of the first Martial Olympiad (Deadeye was his nickname) back when he won it.  I do not think its a stretch to say I have played over a thousand battles from megamek over the . . . wow, nearly two decades (que feeling old) the game existed.  Its run the gamut from single 1v1 duels (sweet victories over single Jade Falcons) all the way up to multi-battalion fights using advanced rules like double blind and including armor, infantry, BA, VTOLs, vehicles, and artillery.
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Sharkapult

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #12 on: 21 June 2018, 20:55:16 »
Building on what they said:
Understand the 2d6 dice curve and the % change between #s. Moving a to hit from a 12 to a 11 or an 11 to a 10 is kind of an ehh move compared to making a 9 into an 8, or an 8 into a 7. Understanding the increase in % between target #s can help you dial in the risk component in your game.

Target Result or more
2     100
3    97.22
4     91.66
5    83.33
6    72.22
7    58.33
8    41.66
9    27.77
10    16.66
11    8.33
12    2.77

Cannonshop

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #13 on: 21 June 2018, 22:40:33 »
move your conventional forces dead last.  It's counterintuitive, but it can actually make the fluff about 'combined arms' work.

Have a plan every turn, don't just react to what the other guy is doing, even if you lose initiative, you can still control the engagement if HE is reacting while  you're acting.  this isn't to say you shouldn't react, but rather, you should focus on creating bad choice scenarios for your opponent, limiting what options he has to use in reacting to your movement into bad/worse scenarios.
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Phobos101

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #14 on: 22 June 2018, 06:58:04 »
...didn't feel right if a unit wasn't firing something at an enemy unit every round...

Weirdo, I wonder if you have cameras in my games room, I make this mistake all the time!   ;D

If you prefer lance battles, try to mix some larger games in the fold.

When you do this, are you playing the full TW rules, same damage values etc as you would as a lance? Or do you streamline these big games somehow? Curios because I'd like to give it a go.

Understand the 2d6 dice curve and the % change between #s.

Learning how 2D6 work compared to, say a D12, really helped me to see a bit of the Matrix too.

There are easily a hundred different tips and tricks that can work to improve your odds of winning.  The hardest part to master is figuring out which of those often mutually exclusive approaches to use in the current situation.  Only experience will impart that kind of understanding, but you still need to know the tricks.

This is what I'm really aiming for, to put together a list of doctrines I can stick to and learn where they work, and where they don't.

Cheers for the responses so far, there's some real gold in this thread. I'm looking forward to next time I can rope one of my gaming buddies into a game, to put some of this stuff to the test.

Daryk

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #15 on: 22 June 2018, 08:35:58 »
Understanding the 2d6 curve helps explain why you always want to take smaller modifiers to your fire than you give your enemies to shoot at you.  It becomes even more critical when your opponents have better gunnery than you.

As for tips, calculate your base to hit modifiers while your opponent is moving.  Then you only have to add their modifiers when it comes to the fire phase.  If you have a lot of units on each side, plot your moves while they are moving.  Both seriously speed up the game.

Kovax

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #16 on: 22 June 2018, 10:55:22 »
Moving a to hit from a 12 to a 11 or an 11 to a 10 is kind of an ehh move compared to making a 9 into an 8, or an 8 into a 7.
The PERCENTAGE difference in the odds between an 11 and 12 is FAR greater than that between a 7 and an 8.  This means that an energy-weapon unit can push the to-hit numbers higher and outperform an ammo-based unit that can't afford to waste shots at 11 to-hit or worse.  A unit that can get a good movement modifier or cover bonus can likewise reduce the odds of being hit by a greater degree than it affects its own shots by keeping the range and other modifiers high.

Example:
If you have a 1 better movement modifiers, all else being equal, and you need 10 to hit, the opponent needs 11.  You have a 6 in 36 chance to hit (16.7%), while the opponent has a 3 in 36 chance to hit (8.3%), giving you DOUBLE the enemy's odds.  If your to-hit number is at 11 (8.3% odds), that pushes the opponent's chance out to a hit on a 12 only (2.8% odds), or TRIPLE the opponent's odds.

Minemech

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #17 on: 22 June 2018, 11:44:19 »
When you do this, are you playing the full TW rules, same damage values etc as you would as a lance? Or do you streamline these big games somehow? Curios because I'd like to give it a go.
Play them out. This may mean you will have to leave many an unfinished game. Stuff happens in life. I do recommend mixing between tabletop and Megamek, knowing that tabletop will take longer. It will improve your efficiency at tabletop, and help you to distinguish between the varied pressures of both. This will have applications for both.

 That said, you may have to streamline to get some players willing to play. Other players will demand more, Colt Ward has noted. The varied rules can force you to understand mechs more abstractly, raising impressions of mechs like the Assassin, and sobering impressions of mechs like the Wolfhound (It is not bad, it just is not a light par excellent). Some opinions on the effectiveness of mechs are not out of prudishness, but out of different experiences, styles, and so forth. Some of the most important virtues to learn in BattleTech are creativity, and sportsmanship. Creativity does not mean abandoning solid doctrine, but better nuancing its applications, as Kovax explicated, and mixing strategies. Sportsmanship also involves recognizing that people employ varied doctrines for varied reasons, and that these should not be immediately dismissed. Not all players are equally creative, but that does not mean that they do not contribute to the greater game. Sportsmanship sometimes involves sharing the logic behind your moves to less creative players, who in turn may surprise you by working to counter it, thereby developing this virtue. There are other virtues, Wierdo's post may be taken to emphasize temperance, for one example.

Minemech

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #18 on: 22 June 2018, 11:56:32 »
 On a further note, helping others grow is a way of helping yourself grow. If you can explain it in simple terms, and demonstrate it, you likely understand it yourself. If you have trouble understanding it, others can help fill in the gaps, even if they themselves did not originally understand it, thereby making all players better for it. It could also foster experimentation in gameplay, deriving accidental discoveries. Know that flawed discoveries can also be concluded from this, which can be tempered over time by gameplay.

Colt Ward

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #19 on: 22 June 2018, 12:11:20 »
Yeah, we had a new player who would roll for his weapons down the stat sheet . . . and then wonder why I ended up with more crits.  I pointed out that he was firing the SRMs from his Brutus, then the LLs and LRMs.  I pointed out that my Warlord with its HPPCs always fired before my Centurion with its LB-10X or the Grenadier BA & its SRMs.

By contrast, I acknowledged that I screwed up when trying to hit a Verfolger with its AMS-  I went with the Grenadier NARC/SRM5 before the Grenadier MagShot/SRM4 squad that had also lost a trooper.  We had acknowledged the AMS, but I should have went with the smaller number of launchers first (SRM12) rather than the undamaged Grenadier which was a SRM20.  His AMS did more for him on the larger SRM group, I should have at least forced the decision- although I do not think he had declared he was using it against the SRM20, I prompted it on results.

MegaMek is nice b/c it lets you focus solely on the tactics since the program keeps track of the rules.  So you can try out things that you might consider to risky to test on TT since its a lot harder to get a TT game arranged . . . its no fun to plan for a 4 or 5 hour game, try something new, and nearly get swept off the board b/c it did not work like you thought.  At least for me, I just bring what I need to the game.
Colt Ward
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Alsadius

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #20 on: 22 June 2018, 12:49:22 »
The PERCENTAGE difference in the odds between an 11 and 12 is FAR greater than that between a 7 and an 8.  This means that an energy-weapon unit can push the to-hit numbers higher and outperform an ammo-based unit that can't afford to waste shots at 11 to-hit or worse.  A unit that can get a good movement modifier or cover bonus can likewise reduce the odds of being hit by a greater degree than it affects its own shots by keeping the range and other modifiers high.

Example:
If you have a 1 better movement modifiers, all else being equal, and you need 10 to hit, the opponent needs 11.  You have a 6 in 36 chance to hit (16.7%), while the opponent has a 3 in 36 chance to hit (8.3%), giving you DOUBLE the enemy's odds.  If your to-hit number is at 11 (8.3% odds), that pushes the opponent's chance out to a hit on a 12 only (2.8% odds), or TRIPLE the opponent's odds.

Yup. But it really depends what you're trading off against. Imagine a mech with a lot of regular AC ammo but a very limited supply of Precision ammo(maybe a King Crab?), where you can only get that -2 to hit a couple times over the course of a match. If your base to-hit is 14, then the precision ammo will do infinitely more damage than the standard ammo would as a percentage, but it's still rolling on 12, so you're still only averaging 0.55 extra damage from the precision round in an AC/20. Conversely, if your base to-hit is 8, then dropping it to 6 increases your chances to hit by 73%(still good, but much less than infinity), but it means the precision round adds an expected 6.11 damage - that's obviously a much better use of the precision round.

Kovax

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #21 on: 22 June 2018, 15:48:32 »
Yup. But it really depends what you're trading off against. Imagine a mech with a lot of regular AC ammo but a very limited supply of Precision ammo(maybe a King Crab?), where you can only get that -2 to hit a couple times over the course of a match. If your base to-hit is 14, then the precision ammo will do infinitely more damage than the standard ammo would as a percentage, but it's still rolling on 12, so you're still only averaging 0.55 extra damage from the precision round in an AC/20. Conversely, if your base to-hit is 8, then dropping it to 6 increases your chances to hit by 73%(still good, but much less than infinity), but it means the precision round adds an expected 6.11 damage - that's obviously a much better use of the precision round.
That's why I pointed out where the energy weapon design can outlast the ammo weapon, by keeping the odds high.  If you've got the ammo weapon but the movement modifier advantage, then it's a tradeoff and highly situational.  One (hopefully) learns to judge when "rule 1" becomes less important than "rule 2", after a few dozen games.

Sharkapult

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #22 on: 22 June 2018, 19:53:53 »
The PERCENTAGE difference in the odds between an 11 and 12 is FAR greater than that between a 7 and an 8.  This means that an energy-weapon unit can push the to-hit numbers higher and outperform an ammo-based unit that can't afford to waste shots at 11 to-hit or worse.  A unit that can get a good movement modifier or cover bonus can likewise reduce the odds of being hit by a greater degree than it affects its own shots by keeping the range and other modifiers high.

Example:
If you have a 1 better movement modifiers, all else being equal, and you need 10 to hit, the opponent needs 11.  You have a 6 in 36 chance to hit (16.7%), while the opponent has a 3 in 36 chance to hit (8.3%), giving you DOUBLE the enemy's odds.  If your to-hit number is at 11 (8.3% odds), that pushes the opponent's chance out to a hit on a 12 only (2.8% odds), or TRIPLE the opponent's odds.
While you are technically correct, my point was to underscore the % cost in taking risks, for example maybe not move a unit to keep the AMM at zero instead of 1 or 2. There's certain spots on the 2d6 curve where it makes sense and others it doesn't (in most situations)
Yeah maybe I get 11s instead of 12s but the actual percentage change is less than 6%. 11 to 10 is 8% increase and 10 to 9 is an 11% increase. Should I run my unit and have 10s to hit or keep it stationary and get 8s? That's more attractive than 12s to 10s or 11a to 9s. (All else being equal)

Minemech

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #23 on: 23 June 2018, 10:08:22 »
While you are technically correct, my point was to underscore the % cost in taking risks, for example maybe not move a unit to keep the AMM at zero instead of 1 or 2. There's certain spots on the 2d6 curve where it makes sense and others it doesn't (in most situations)
Yeah maybe I get 11s instead of 12s but the actual percentage change is less than 6%. 11 to 10 is 8% increase and 10 to 9 is an 11% increase. Should I run my unit and have 10s to hit or keep it stationary and get 8s? That's more attractive than 12s to 10s or 11a to 9s. (All else being equal)
You mean point increase. People get what you are trying to say, but the convention will simplify things for all.
« Last Edit: 23 June 2018, 10:14:43 by Minemech »

StoneRhino

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #24 on: 24 June 2018, 08:36:18 »
There's a lot that could be said, but if you have specifics about past games and what happened as well as what you would have preferred to have happened would help a lot.

The absolute worst kind of student is the kind that thinks he or she knows everything. Instead of asking questions to get answers, they simply want people to confirm their beliefs. There is no point in spending time on someone that will ignore what you have to say, the only way for such a person to learn is to hit a point where they realize that they know nothing. Therefore, the first bit of advice to up your game is to consider everything, accept that you know nothing, and be prepared to experiment. Expect the results to be disastrous. Examine the information carefully.

Dice rolls play a role in the game, but I have known people that will suggest that dice rolls were the cause of problem, which is a means of dismissing what someone may have worked to shape several turns in advance. You might see someone roll a 12, but they only needed a 5 to hit. Does that make the 12 any better then rolling a 7? Such people are blind to anything other then the number on the dice facing upwards. Such people are also likely to believe that their rolling a 12 when they need an 11 to hit is a sign that they are playing well, therefore the dice had to grant them an 11+ to hit. Its easy to dismiss the results of an opposing player by suggesting it was luck, while attributing your success to skill.

What works for one player might not work well for you...but give it a shot anyways. The worst thing that can happen is that you play a game with a force that you wouldn't have otherwise picked out. What is likely to happen is that you will gain some slight understanding as to how it works, as well as it's flaws.

As others have said, try different sizes of games. A unit might dominate in a 1v1 game, but end up as worthless scrap in a company vs company game.

Don't be afraid to push yourself. One thing that people complain the most about the game is how long it takes. In my experience, the biggest time sink is the movement phase. Most people would spend all day looking for the "perfect move". The problem is that there is no such thing. I have seen people spend a lot of time trying to decide on a single move that might seem great on turn 2, but would prove to be a serious error on turn 5. The problem is that these players will likely never reach turn 5 because they do this with every unit.
The major flaw with trying to come up with the perfect move is that the opposition is gaining additional time to refine their plan. Not only that but they may be watching you trying to make a single decision, which gives them an idea of what you fear and what you believe that you excel at. If you are equally new then both sides gain and lose just the same. However, if you are playing against someone with a greater level of experience you are putting yourself at serious disadvantage. The answer to the problem is to come to the table with a rough plan and try to adhere to it. You're going to get your butt kicked, but you will have information as to how that plan worked and how it failed. You can adjust and try it again.  Seeing the results of actions that were selected is the only real way to learn as you take theory and experience and put them together.

Kovax

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #25 on: 25 June 2018, 11:07:58 »
While you are technically correct, my point was to underscore the % cost in taking risks, for example maybe not move a unit to keep the AMM at zero instead of 1 or 2. There's certain spots on the 2d6 curve where it makes sense and others it doesn't (in most situations)
Yeah maybe I get 11s instead of 12s but the actual percentage change is less than 6%. 11 to 10 is 8% increase and 10 to 9 is an 11% increase. Should I run my unit and have 10s to hit or keep it stationary and get 8s? That's more attractive than 12s to 10s or 11a to 9s. (All else being equal)

Staying stationary to keep your to-hit numbers lower may help, but it may also help the opponent hit YOU.  If you can force worse odds on the opponent than you yourself suffer for that movement, it probably pays to move, unless there are other overriding factors.  For example, if staying put gives me a shot at 8+ with my Locust, and running  inflicts a +2 penalty that makes it a 10+, does it pay to stay put if I can get a +4 movement modifier that takes the enemy's shots to 12?  I'm suffering a reduction in accuracy, but not as much as I cost the opponent.

As a "worst case scenario", one of the players in an old gaming group I was in ran a set of BT matches where a "green" pilot in training got to pilot a Chameleon against a 20 ton Locust with a Regular pilot.  In most of the matches, it was a VERY close battle, as the light 'Mechs used their higher speed to get a better modifier, coupled with the heavier 'Mech's poorer gunnery, to keep the trainee's to-hit numbers in the 11+ or 12 range for most of the fight.  The hosting player ran all of his own matches against a first-time player in the Locust, and at one point warned the Locust player that moving would ruin his shots.  Basically, in each match he walked his Chameleon up to the stationary Locust and fired his much larger array of weapons at 6+ to hit, and 5+ on the following turn, for a series of cakewalk wins, while everyone else suffered a mix of wins and losses.  The new player never came back, but the game host got his tournament victory.  Movement is a two-edged sword, so it has to be handled with the understanding that it has both its positive and negative points, and the idea is to maximize the difference between the positives and the negatives.

Even that's situational, since ranges come into play: if I can dictate a shot at short range for me and medium range for the opponent (with a +2 difference), I may be able to afford to give up a 1 modifier on movement.  On the other hand, if the opponent is running a Warhammer, I don't want him taking 10-point shots at my Locust AT ALL, so getting a high modifier is in my best interests for survival so he shoots at my heavily-armored line units instead, or if my Centurion pilot just went unconscious from a fall, I may WANT the Warhammer to take shots on the Locust at mediocre odds instead of pummeling the Centurion with guaranteed hits while its helpless.  You need to weigh ALL of the factors, not just the to-hit odds.  Only experience teaches how to weigh those factors, and it depends on HOW you play, so it can't be taught as "facts".
« Last Edit: 25 June 2018, 11:20:01 by Kovax »

Alsadius

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #26 on: 25 June 2018, 13:18:15 »
Staying stationary to keep your to-hit numbers lower may help, but it may also help the opponent hit YOU.  If you can force worse odds on the opponent than you yourself suffer for that movement, it probably pays to move, unless there are other overriding factors.  For example, if staying put gives me a shot at 8+ with my Locust, and running  inflicts a +2 penalty that makes it a 10+, does it pay to stay put if I can get a +4 movement modifier that takes the enemy's shots to 12?  I'm suffering a reduction in accuracy, but not as much as I cost the opponent.

Also, you need to keep in mind that this only applies if they shoot at the Locust at all. If you have an Atlas pilot who tripped over his own feet, knocked himself out, and is sitting immobilized in a field with a regain consciousness roll of 3+, then the Locust is probably going to be free and clear of any shots even if it does stand still, so maybe you should make your shots on 8+ instead of 10+.

You don't want them to have a gimmie, but if they've already got one, no point doing crazy moves to raise the THNs on Mechs that won't be getting shot at in the first place.

Sharkapult

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #27 on: 25 June 2018, 21:47:26 »
Staying stationary to keep your to-hit numbers lower may help, but it may also help the opponent hit YOU. 

My entire point was about the OP understanding the 2d6 curve in regards to taking tactical risks in game. Your first example with the locust is actually a great example of what I'm trying to explain.
Otherwise, I was not talking about optimizing movement, or specific scenarios. I'm not going to sit over this guy's shoulder and tell him how to move his units when he plays. Players need to understand the %s in play on the 2d6 bell curve. Not all plus or minus ones are equal.

My second piece of advice is attempt to keep your opponent's target number higher than yours. If you run for +2 try to use terrain plus movement modifier to keep them at +2 or higher (don't forget range mods)
« Last Edit: 25 June 2018, 21:50:53 by Sharkapult »

Minemech

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #28 on: 26 June 2018, 10:21:19 »
 Temperance is indeed a virtue. I have had situations where I have taken the light woods on the lower ground because the better to hit numbers meant that much more to me at the time, than the benefits of the Heavy Woods on the high ground. It is not necessarily a short sighted move, but you have to have an eye for the whole battlefield.  Some mechs thrive in these situations, the Griffin is an obvious example. However, the obvious examples do not make the best examples in certain cases.
« Last Edit: 26 June 2018, 10:37:17 by Minemech »

RoundTop

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Re: Operation Gitgud - help me sharpen my game!
« Reply #29 on: 26 June 2018, 11:35:42 »
My go-to example of this is the Pheonix Hawk 7K.

It goes 6/9/9 with a Snub-nosed PPC and 1 ER Medium Laser.

This is a mosquito. It will jump for a +4 modifier every turn, and is basically a gummy bear. But! It pays that +3 to hit. How do you fix this?  You target the slow heavies and assaults, and watch your range like a hawk. Jump to 9 hexes out and shoot at their +1 modifier assault mech. You have 4 (gunnery) + 3 (Jump) + 1 (Their movement) for a total of 8 (40%) on the to-hit for your snub-PPC. They shooting back have 4 (Gunner) + 1 (walk) + 4 (your movement) + range (at least medium, so +2) = 11.

You plink them for 10 damage all day long. Will it kill them outright? No. Will they want to smack that mosquito? Yes. It distracts them, and they waste their shots against something hard as heck to hit.  This is using the range of your weapons and theirs to be in your favor.  Yes, I could have run the PHX, but it would max out at +3, and any turns or terrain would reduce that further, so I elect to pay the Jumping penalty, and use the long short range of the snub-PPC to its advantage.

Throw in better gunners (say 3 gunner) on both, and suddenly I have 7s (60% chance) and they have 10s (~16%). So I gained 20% to hit, and they gained 8%. Still in my favor.  know the dice, know the odds.
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
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