Author Topic: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen  (Read 217761 times)

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1110 on: 24 June 2018, 13:00:48 »
Catapult is in both the last set of plastics and the current ones.  Stalker is a bigger wad of 'deep' plastic.  Raven, a bit narrower than the Catapult, Dragon has a beak on it . . .
Those are very different from the Clan omnis I mentioned, specifically the arms. Let me know how you see the Masakari and Daishi being cast/molded in the exact same way.

I sculpted the Catapult's legs specifically so that it could be molded like in one piece. The original legs could not have been done that way. That's the pose you get with those style legs. Now imagine every mini you own with chicken legs in that exact same pose. If they have arms, they'll be pointing slightly down and probably open a bit. Gets a little boring with the hundreds of miniatures available. The plastic packs evolved further than the original Beginner's Sets that I created, but they still didn't cover the 3050 Clan omnis. There's a reason for that, and I doubt that it was lack of demand.

Here's the deal: experienced modelers have the skills to modify static poses. Inexperienced players will not bother putting together complicated models. The less assembly, the better.
That is exactly why I created the metal Beginner Sets back in the day, plus one more reason: They would be a little cheaper than buying better-detailed individual minis, because, let's face it, the average BT'er wants cheap product. And that's a problem. The plastic lance packs didn't sell fast enough to be worth it because of the higher-than-metal overhead. How many of the plastic sets sat on shelves until they were on sale? I would guess the half-price fire sales that went on the last couple of years probably account for a not unsubstantial percentage of total sales. Those were the best, cheapest, and most generic product produced and they still weren't good enough.

ColBosch

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1111 on: 24 June 2018, 13:04:26 »
The Lance Packs were overproduced. They sold very well, but CGL simply ordered too many. It's a learning experience.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1112 on: 24 June 2018, 13:04:44 »
Here's the deal: experienced modelers have the skills to modify static poses. Inexperienced players will not bother putting together complicated models. The less assembly, the better.

I agree as well.

Here's an example. Both are the Plastic Battlemasters from the previous box set. The Green in the 'classic' static pose. The Yellow with a little modding. For newer postsers, the model was 2 arms (static) 2 legs (static) and I believe torso and hips.

The plastic is the 'good kind' in my opinion( the kind that 'melts' with model glue like most model kits), so modding was very easy to achieve. If we had model kits like that, that would be quite welcome.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1113 on: 24 June 2018, 13:09:13 »
If we had model kits like that, that would be quite welcome.
With the number of individual 'Mech chassis out there, not counting variants, how do you imagine that could happen? That isn't even counting vehicles and aircraft.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1114 on: 24 June 2018, 13:09:35 »
Here's the deal: experienced modelers have the skills to modify static poses. Inexperienced players will not bother putting together complicated models. The less assembly, the better.

+1 from me, too.

I think NeonKnight's example hits the nail on the head.  The plastic minis from the previous box set are extremely easy to mod - if necessary - but they are also just fine as-is.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1115 on: 24 June 2018, 13:10:50 »
The Lance Packs were overproduced. They sold very well, but CGL simply ordered too many. It's a learning experience.
Why were they overproduced? High quantity to get the individual cost down I would wager.

NeonKnight

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1116 on: 24 June 2018, 13:25:06 »
With the number of individual 'Mech chassis out there, not counting variants, how do you imagine that could happen? That isn't even counting vehicles and aircraft.

Well...not asking for everything to be done, but imagine if you will instead of a Lance Pack of:

Raven, Jenner, Hunchback, Victor, with only 4 static models. there was instead a sprue with those same 4 models, but the legs were separate, the arms were separate and the torsos were separate.

Or the new Box set, instead of the 8 models as being a single cast piece, there were a multi cast piece.

Certainly not asking to redo the hundreds of pre-existing models, simply saying IF CGL were to do future plastics, small multi piece (like the Thor/Loki, Madcat and BattleMaster before) would be nice.
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ColBosch

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1117 on: 24 June 2018, 14:13:18 »
Why were they overproduced? High quantity to get the individual cost down I would wager.

Nah, just over-estimated demand. It happens. The good news is that they're out there, often for quite cheap, so when the market improves - i.e., once the new boxed sets hits - new players can snap them up.
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Scotty

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1118 on: 24 June 2018, 16:26:44 »
+1 from me, too.

I think NeonKnight's example hits the nail on the head.  The plastic minis from the previous box set are extremely easy to mod - if necessary - but they are also just fine as-is.

I find his example ironic and amusing, because that Battlemaster is five pieces and exactly the kind of small variability without having to cut parts that I was talking about.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1119 on: 24 June 2018, 19:03:06 »
I find his example ironic and amusing, because that Battlemaster is five pieces and exactly the kind of small variability without having to cut parts that I was talking about.

lol, was it?  Its been so long since I assembled it that I can’t remember.  Now that you mention it, though, I remember the arms being on a sprue, but what else?

Well, HOWEVER many pieces that was, that’s perfect for me.  As long as it in plastic.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1120 on: 24 June 2018, 19:06:35 »
That particular figure is entirely contained on a... 2" x 5" sprue, I think?  Two arms, two legs, and the torso.  There was also a separate base with slots for the feet to go in.

The Mad Cat that came in the same box was the same way, with the same number of parts.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1121 on: 24 June 2018, 21:33:26 »
Yeah, not sure why that Battlemaster was being used when worktroll has lots and lots of Lance Pack mods to demonstrate.

We had our big con here in my state, over 30 people at two grinder tables for hours yesterday.  Lots of discussion of the box sets expected to come out by the end of the year if they want everything or we told them you can pick up the lance packs from X store or Y store in the area, running about $ZZ to get some of the minis they were using.  I know I plucked a plastic off the table to let someone compare it to the metal they were using for weight and then they looked at the details.

Who knows if they will buy in, but we had folks asking where we played & when.  When they came back to finish off today instead of playing one of the other games, I took that as a good sign.  The lead demo agent spoke with the store that has a presence at the con, next year we want to be able to tell them if they want to get started, go down stairs to the store and pick up Product A or B.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1122 on: 25 June 2018, 00:38:39 »
Yeah, not sure why that Battlemaster was being used when worktroll has lots and lots of Lance Pack mods to demonstrate.

We had our big con here in my state, over 30 people at two grinder tables for hours yesterday.  Lots of discussion of the box sets expected to come out by the end of the year if they want everything or we told them you can pick up the lance packs from X store or Y store in the area, running about $ZZ to get some of the minis they were using.  I know I plucked a plastic off the table to let someone compare it to the metal they were using for weight and then they looked at the details.

Who knows if they will buy in, but we had folks asking where we played & when.  When they came back to finish off today instead of playing one of the other games, I took that as a good sign.  The lead demo agent spoke with the store that has a presence at the con, next year we want to be able to tell them if they want to get started, go down stairs to the store and pick up Product A or B.

I used the battlemaster specifically because it was a multi part model. By having a small number of pieces it may not be scary for a new gamer to experiment with. Maybe change the arms a little. Move the legs. Way less scary than cutting up a complete model.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1123 on: 25 June 2018, 00:45:43 »
The multi-part plastic battlemaster doesn't really need glue, either. This makes it easy to pop off the sprue, plug together, and then start headcapping other mechs.

If anything, it should be simpler. Legs and base as one part, upper torso as a separate part, then arms. This provides a reasonable amount of posing while being simple and (if designed correctly) doesn't require glue.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1124 on: 25 June 2018, 00:58:46 »
(Both) legs molded into a base is the fastest way to make new dislike a mini.  It makes a single static pose the default and makes it require surgery to make anything approaching dynamic motion possible.

Some minis like the Shadow Hawk manage to reasonably have options while also having a molded base, but they're still few and far between.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1125 on: 25 June 2018, 01:11:39 »
Better than that leg flung back in the air running pose. I agree that the metal sculpt of the Classic Shadow Hawk is a good example of allowing for both ease of construction and variation in posing. The few and far between part has to do with management and the approval process.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1126 on: 25 June 2018, 01:16:14 »
The Lance Packs were overproduced. They sold very well, but CGL simply ordered too many. It's a learning experience.

I'm not sure they were overproduced. If they'd produced fewer, each box would have had to bear a higher percentage of the fixed costs (tooling), therefore driving the cost per box up.

I remember being told that, during the 80's, an injection mold could cost high-six or into seven figures. DNC and CAD/CAM has brought that down sharply, but it's still high, and figuring that each lance pack took one mold, my lowest estimate is a hundred thousand spent on just tooling, before the variable costs of the production runs (Which would go down per-item the more you made.)


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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1127 on: 25 June 2018, 05:05:07 »
(Both) legs molded into a base is the fastest way to make new dislike a mini.  It makes a single static pose the default and makes it require surgery to make anything approaching dynamic motion possible.

That's your opinion, but I assure you, new players would be fine with it. If *you* want multi-pose models, please let TPTB know, but don't pretend that it's a viewpoint shared by people you don't even know.

I'm not sure they were overproduced.

They were overproduced. This is a fact, not a random opinion.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1128 on: 25 June 2018, 07:43:42 »
(Both) legs molded into a base is the fastest way to make new dislike a mini.  It makes a single static pose the default and makes it require surgery to make anything approaching dynamic motion possible.

I would rather have both legs molded as a single piece and the base separate than both of the legs molded to the base.  I would prefer either to having the legs as two separate pieces, though. 
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1129 on: 25 June 2018, 07:53:50 »
The Game of Armored Combat (8 'mech) box set includes Alpha Strike materials, if what I heard at Origins was correct. ;)

Sort of. It contains Alpha Strike cards, but not rules, IIRC.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1130 on: 25 June 2018, 08:14:17 »
Damnit! Why won't Catalyst please sell these t-shirts online and take my money?

The answer to any question like this is "Money." As in it either:
1. Costs too much to do
2. Won't deliver enough money to be profitable

In this case we've talked about it before you had joined the forums, and it's #2.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1131 on: 25 June 2018, 09:10:52 »
(Both) legs molded into a base is the fastest way to make new dislike a mini.  It makes a single static pose the default and makes it require surgery to make anything approaching dynamic motion possible.

Some minis like the Shadow Hawk manage to reasonably have options while also having a molded base, but they're still few and far between.

I'm with you on fixed leg positions, but I consider myself a fairly advanced hobbyist, and modder.

*Personally*, I am a huge fan of highly poseable multi-part minis, but I am sympathetic to newbies who might not even want to deal with 'mech assembly before they can start rolling dice, and marking off armor bubbles.

If it helps promote the game, I am content to spend a few quality hours with my jeweler's saw, rather than chase away a prospective new player with a complex build.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1132 on: 25 June 2018, 10:26:21 »
The point on the plastics like the AS Lance Pack is that you can easily adjust their position- I have done and have very little skill.  So yeah, the point is the greatest basic appeal and b/c of the medium it allows people to experiment without it costing like it does with metal and is easier to work on.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1133 on: 25 June 2018, 10:38:37 »
I'm with you on fixed leg positions, but I consider myself a fairly advanced hobbyist, and modder.

*Personally*, I am a huge fan of highly poseable multi-part minis, but I am sympathetic to newbies who might not even want to deal with 'mech assembly before they can start rolling dice, and marking off armor bubbles.

If it helps promote the game, I am content to spend a few quality hours with my jeweler's saw, rather than chase away a prospective new player with a complex build.

I think it’s fine to have a mix with mostly forgiving builds, but still a small number of more complex items (e.g. the 5/9D & 9W2 Marauder and Arion). I actually like putting together more complicated minis but I wouldn’t want them to comprise the majority of the line

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1134 on: 25 June 2018, 19:32:49 »
I only have one copy of the reseen T-bolt and have no plans to get another because the legs are in a fixed position and posed badly. I rarely buy more than one copy of any mech where both legs are fixed to the base because I do not want them to look alike. As for the notion that experienced modelers don't mind sawing legs off, this experienced modeler hates it. It doesn't help that so much damage is done to the details of the mini in the process.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1135 on: 25 June 2018, 19:36:42 »
The reseen tbolt has the legendarily nightmarish multi-segment legs. Are you thinking of the primitive or IIC?

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1136 on: 25 June 2018, 19:38:44 »
The primitive has single piece legs if I remember from what I built that, so its not that one . . . and the discussion was about the plastics being 1 piece, so . . .
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1137 on: 25 June 2018, 19:49:14 »
I only have one copy of the reseen T-bolt and have no plans to get another because the legs are in a fixed position and posed badly. I rarely buy more than one copy of any mech where both legs are fixed to the base because I do not want them to look alike. As for the notion that experienced modelers don't mind sawing legs off, this experienced modeler hates it. It doesn't help that so much damage is done to the details of the mini in the process.

Same reason I'm not buying a reseen T-Bolt anytime soon. Issues like posing is a matter of management and approval process, and should be handled before it goes to production. It's a failing of the producer, not the concept.

Miniature producers like IWM can cater to the experienced modeler demographic. Introductory board game products that emphasize ease of entry into the franchise need to be more considerate about barriers to entry. Like taking half an hour and glue (sold seperately) to get your game ready to play.

The new upcoming sculpts look promising. How long it will take for those designs to show up as multi-part figures in the IWM catalog may be a good question for CGL at Gen Con.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1138 on: 25 June 2018, 22:26:28 »
I remember being told that, during the 80's, an injection mold could cost high-six or into seven figures.
It also depends on the size and complexity of the mold. A large multi-part mold even for today could run that high, but I don't think the far more common smaller molds would cost that much even in the 80s. If they did we wouldn't have seen far far fewer choices in the number of toys offered.

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...but it's still high, and figuring that each lance pack took one mold, my lowest estimate is a hundred thousand spent on just tooling, before the variable costs of the production runs (Which would go down per-item the more you made.)

If CGL was smart each lance pack would not have its own mold. Rather each mech would have a mold plate that could be added to a larger mold. It changes the cost dynamic and might make the overall cost about 10% higher but the cost per part is now also lower as is the fact that you can mix and match any 4 or more plates. Makes individual sales easier as well a greater variety in lance packs (or greater randomness within a set lance pack).

Thinking about it... adding new plates would be far cheaper than adding whole new molds as well and could turn lance packs into something akin to trading card packs. Which ultra rare mech will you pick up in that next purchase of the Urban Lance. Sweet! It came with Big Boobs McGee in her pimped out Urbanmech!

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #1139 on: 25 June 2018, 22:34:47 »
No one commenting in this thread knows how Catalyst produced the Lance packs, so I highly doubt any of us are in a position to criticize said production of said Lance packs.  Results?  Yeah, sure.  Methods?  Not really, no.
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