Author Topic: What new technology for 3150  (Read 80580 times)

Nanaki

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #270 on: 20 August 2011, 09:43:57 »
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This presumes (mistakenly, I believe) that the TPTB intend to keep having the Clans as a major power and opponent to the Inner Sphere when the past 20 years of setting development has been about how elements of the Clans have split off and joined or otherwise merged with various pre-existing Inner Sphere factions (first the Dragoons, then Wolf-In-Exile, then the Nova Cats make a deal with the Draconis Combine (and then the RotS), then the Diamond Sharks move in as free traders, the Ghost Bears and Ravens make deals with Inner Sphere powers, and the Scorpions become el Scorpio Imperium).

By all accounts the Clans look to be moving firmly into minor powers status with their only prospects for not being so laying in doing the unthinkable and presenting a unified front and compromising with their ancient rivals.

...and then Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon eviscirate large portions of the Free Worlds League and Lyran Commonwealth, and it looks increasingly likely that the Nova Cats are going to break off and directly fight the Combine, and, oh yes, the Ghost Bears and Ravens? They are still in charge. By the way, the Dragoons are not even clan.

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Their torpedoes were the most advanced in the world during the war. At the start of the war their Zero fighters outperformed everything in the Allies' arsenal. They also mounted the largest guns ever (18 inchers) on their battleships (no other navy in the world used guns that large). What kicked their butts was their lack of production capacity compared to the United States.

I already refuted the torpedoes. The IJN Torpedoes were a type of torpedo that other countries had long abandoned research into because of how unstable and explosive they were. This was later validated when a good number of IJN ships were sunk due to how easy it was to make the torpedoes go off.

As for mounting the largest guns, yes, it was impressive until you realized the Yamato had exceptionally poor fire control system and that, if it ever came to ahead against the smaller but far more advanced Iowa class BB, it would have sunk.

As for the Zero? It was certainly an impressive design and I will give you a point for that, but also very fragile which would later prove to be the design's undoing.

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And the Clans' reliance on might-makes-right leadership where the winners of one-on-one physical duels get to be the generals instead of say, people who demonstrate an actual grasp of strategy, was not sheer idiocy?

No more idiotic than having people in charge based on who they are related to.

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The Germans produced vastly superior tanks

German tank superiority did not come into play until 1942, when the Tiger I was rolled out. Until then, the Germans actually had inferior tanks to the Russians and the French.

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They also had shoddy leadership from the get go.

The Military leadership was dangerously competant, after all, they did pioneer a level of combined arms and tactics that would later come to symbolize the Blitzkrieg, and have managed to defeat the far superior French/British army in 1940.

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And because they're the Clans that means magic pixie-fairies are going to come and save them from the inevitiable crush of human history?

...because those same magic pixie-fairies saved the Successor States? I am sensing a double standard here.

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What keeps BattleTech interesting is that it marches on too. We aren't perpetually stuck in 3025. Nations are born. Nations fall. Alliances shift. Leadership changes hands. Its that continued change over time that gives BattleTech much of its versimiltude and makes it so engrossing. What you're asking for is for them to make a special magic exception to what's made BattleTech such a great setting because your favored faction won't be keeping its major power status.

Curious, I dont see you making that same argument for the Successor States, whom have more or less remain unchanged with the exact same dynasties in charge since 2750. The only one you could possibly argue for is Free Worlds League, but they recently reformed with the same Marik dynasty in charge. I guess Status Quo is king after all.

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Doesn't keep them from being relevant to any story someone would care to tell about them.

Except they arent relevant to the universe as a whole. You could take the Northwind highlanders out of the universe entirely, and it would change absolutly nothing.

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Personally, I think there's more than enough in the Clans to keep them interesting even if they had shown up with just Star League-era tech back in 3050.

Then it would have been even more difficult to explain how they would have been able to threaten the Successor States from a population base of barely a billion.

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Let's face it, take away magic-pixie fairies and you have no leg to stand on. Your argument resides entirely on the demand that rational human beings throw away their rationality because you want the Clans to always be major players in a universe that evolved past them.

In a universe that has evolved past them? Who died and made you Line Director? As delusional as you are about it, the Clans still remain powerful players even in 3144, so to say that the universe has moved on from the Clans is about as laughable an argument as saying that the universe has moved on from the Successor States, which, if you had not noticed, it hasnt.
« Last Edit: 20 August 2011, 09:48:43 by Nanaki »

Marwynn

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #271 on: 20 August 2011, 18:43:45 »
On another note, after reading A Bonfire of Worlds (yes, finally) I think Clantech becoming Standardtech isn't in the pipeline. The book finishes in 3143-3144 and while Clantech was widely used there were still plenty of standard 'Mechs.

I think that the current Level 2 and Advanced and some Experimentals will become the new Level 1. And Clantech will be the widely accessible (for the rich or well-connected) Level 2.

Nanaki

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #272 on: 20 August 2011, 19:46:56 »
I think that the current Level 2 and Advanced and some Experimentals will become the new Level 1. And Clantech will be the widely accessible (for the rich or well-connected) Level 2.

I think even that comparison is stretching it. You are right in that it will be accessible to the rich and well-connected, but at the same time IS Level 2 quickly became ubiquitous due to the Successor States pretty much throwing a huge amount of resources to ramp up production. We wont see this with Clantech, considering that it is certain that the manufactuers of Clantech will remain the Clans, and that the Inner Sphere will have to either purchase or salvage theirs.

Talz

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #273 on: 20 August 2011, 20:03:47 »
I have to agree with the general sentiment of the last few posts.  The finer details are debatable and open for plenty of tweaking to suit the plans of TPTB but we've seen enough from the DA era fiction and setting material that it seems clear that clan tech won't be standard in 3150.  Yes the Dark Age material is limited with much of it focused on the RotS but the later material gave us enough of the metaview to show that such a spread of clan tech manufacture just isn't happening.  The availability is more widespread for those with the wealth and/or connections and there may still be some low volume clan tech manufactured by the Inner Sphere powers, but it's not standard issure for even the average front line troops.  There's a huge disparity between the haves and have nots when it comes to military equipment.  As others have mentioned this does make game balance more difficult but the upside to that is we will have an ever wider variety of matchups and game types to choose from.

metaturtle

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #274 on: 21 August 2011, 00:27:06 »
We wont see this with Clantech, considering that it is certain that the manufactuers of Clantech will remain the Clans, and that the Inner Sphere will have to either purchase or salvage theirs.

Doesn't one of the new TROs mention that the Davions are building/have built a Clan ER Med Laser factory by the end of the Jihad?

Red Pins

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #275 on: 21 August 2011, 00:50:18 »
(...Actually, I was going to put this in a new topic, but since this thread was at the top of the list, it caught my idea and thought I'd put it here, too.)

I was pondering the use of a system like a limpet mine to hold pressurized tanks of firefighting aerosols on an armored vehicle.    How much and what might they be able to support?

I use trailers, so I'm familiar with the way their use costs me a reduction in speed - would something like this attached to the exterior of a vehicle affect it in the same way?
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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #276 on: 21 August 2011, 02:51:36 »
Doesn't one of the new TROs mention that the Davions are building/have built a Clan ER Med Laser factory by the end of the Jihad?

Pulse, not ER.

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Onisuzume

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #277 on: 21 August 2011, 04:23:12 »
Doesn't one of the new TROs mention that the Davions are building/have built a Clan ER Med Laser factory by the end of the Jihad?
Who says that it doesn't get destroyed sometime between now and 3140?

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Nanaki

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #278 on: 21 August 2011, 08:33:27 »
Doesn't one of the new TROs mention that the Davions are building/have built a Clan ER Med Laser factory by the end of the Jihad?

Which isnt really saying much.
« Last Edit: 21 August 2011, 08:35:21 by Nanaki »

Crunch

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #279 on: 21 August 2011, 13:06:15 »
Doesn't one of the new TROs mention that the Davions are building/have built a Clan ER Med Laser factory by the end of the Jihad?

Not that I've seen. It could be in Prototypes (which is well after the end of the Jihad) but the line that that claim is usually referring to is the line in XTRO Davion in the Pendragon fluff which indicates that the Department of Military Commmunications and Research has hand built 18 Clan ER Mediums.

Hardly a Factory.
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Moonsword

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #280 on: 21 August 2011, 14:13:37 »
TRO Prototypes mentions that they're building medium pulse lasers, but it also notes that the production of the Fulcrum Hybrid's medium pulse lasers is suspected to take as long as most of the rest of the tank.

StoneRhino

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #281 on: 23 August 2011, 08:20:01 »


Hopefully they make X-pulse lasers the new standard of IS pulse lasers. It has been dragged on to long and made zero sense other then to make sure the clans are more awesome! An increase of the range of AC 2 and 5s would be nice. A slight decrease in tonnage of the 2 and 5 ACs of all classes. Removal of the +1 to hit for MRMs and maybe a slight decrease to their heat.


The thing about the game is that things is that things should always be improving. If one side improves their weapons, the other side is working on their defense at the same rate, and vice versa. No one is going to end up with a war in real life where one side is using Zeros against Raptors. Instead, what you have is Russia and China working on stealth figthers of their own. So while things are constantly advancing, they are always being matched so that no side gains a huge advantage over the other.

In BT the clans somehow....managed to gain a significant advantage and maintain it. I do question things when the IS creates something and over night the clans have the same, but with longer ranges, less weight, even less heat! The clans get to enjoy an advantage, but the IS can never have one, not even a questionable one at that without the clans coming out with something to match it over night.

Then again, it would come down to playing not a 3025, or 3050, or even 3060+game, it becomes "we are playing a 3054 and 11/12th game, on the date of october 18 at 22:05".

StCptMara

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #282 on: 23 August 2011, 08:41:33 »
No one is going to end up with a war in real life where one side is using Zeros against Raptors.

Of course, in the real world, a Zero would not stand a chance against a Raptor(despite the fact that the Raptors
are all currently grounded due to issues with their oxygen supply to the pilots). In Battletech, however, a
500 year old design, with a skilled pilot and proper tactics can take down the most advanced things on the battlefield.

In BT the clans somehow....managed to gain a significant advantage and maintain it. I do question things when the IS creates something and over night the clans have the same, but with longer ranges, less weight, even less heat! The clans get to enjoy an advantage, but the IS can never have one, not even a questionable one at that without the clans coming out with something to match it over night.

The only thing like that I can think of is the Clan RACs, which are just longer range, but take up more space, and are experimental.
The Inner Sphere developed MMLs from inspiration from the Clan ATM Launchers, the Clan Plasma Cannon does generate more heat
then the IS version, and does weigh less, but it does no damage against 'mechs. I have not seen Clan versions of Variable-Speed Pulse
Lasers, and the Clans took several RL years to develop their own version of the Small Cockpit, and it is not better then the IS version.

Honestly, I do not know of any cases where the clans turned around and "overnight" souped up IS tech...
Then again...I wish the Clans still made the Klondike-Era Streak Launcher Prototypes for the 4's and 6's....those things are far
and away better, in my opinion...so what if they don't do the "Don't lock, don't fire"...they hit more often!
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Moonsword

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #283 on: 23 August 2011, 08:46:38 »
It's probably because they're heavier, especially with the way Clan designs later came to frequently run short of ammunition.

Istal_Devalis

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #284 on: 23 August 2011, 08:57:38 »
I wish the Clans still made the Klondike-Era Streak Launcher Prototypes for the 4's and 6's....those things are far
and away better, in my opinion...so what if they don't do the "Don't lock, don't fire"...they hit more often!
The Prototype Streaks also only had a range of 9 compared to the finalised versions 12 and weigh 50% more.

Of course, if you REALLY want the prototype Streak 6 system...have you compared the Prototype Streak SRM 6 with a Clan SRM 6 with Artemis V?

SRM 6 with Art V - Weight 3 tons, Crit Slots 3, -1 to Hit, +3 Cluster Roll, Range 9
Streak-CP SRM-6 - Weight 4.5 tons, Crit Slots 2, -1 to Hit, +4 Cluster Roll, Range 9
Streak SRM-6 - Weight 3 Tons, Crit Slots 2, No change to hit, Max Cluster roll, Range 12

StCptMara

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #285 on: 23 August 2011, 09:24:35 »
You know...I always thought the only difference between Art IV and Art V was the -1 bonus to hit...
Good to know they actually made it a more significant improvement.
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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #286 on: 25 August 2011, 19:15:06 »
You know...I always thought the only difference between Art IV and Art V was the -1 bonus to hit...
Good to know they actually made it a more significant improvement.

While hardly an expert on the Dark Age, I was under the impression that Clantech was a RotS/Clan thing (If anyone could build Clantech en mass it should be Terra.)  So the general guidelines I'd like to see.

RotS
Paladins, Advanced/experimental Clantech
First Line troops - Clantehch
Second Line troops, SLDF levels

Great houses (and MoC)
Elites - Clantech (bought/stole from Clans, RotS)
First line SLDF tech
Second Line standard tech.

(Non-Clan) Periphery
Elites - Yeah...
First Line SLDF Tech
Second Line Standard/Retrotech.

Council of six
Elites-Clan experiental
First Line - Clan Standard
Second Line SLDF tech

There are exceptions of course, this is just general thoughts.
Also logistics are an issue.  Haumptan Second Line buys a Clan ER PPC.  Good until it breaks, then he'd better hope for a snubbie or extra ton.

As to new toys, for the IS...
Head Hunter Rounds (finally)
Better Autocannons
ER Light PPCs
ER Heavy PPCS
ER Snubbies
Bigger MMLS
MMLs that can fire streaks.
Stable TSM
NER PPCS
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Marwynn

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #287 on: 25 August 2011, 19:24:10 »
Re-reading some Wolverine stuff and I remembered that they had something called Enhanced ER PPCs. Essentially, IS ER PPCs but dealing 12 points of damage. A good in-between weapon and something that I can see happening 83 years after the Heavy, Snub-nose, and Light PPCs' debut.

Previn

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #288 on: 25 August 2011, 19:28:35 »
ER Heavy PPCS
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I'm not sure there's a reason to develop these over upgrading factories to produce clan spec ER-PPCs. I also suspect heat generate would be prohibitive at 20 or 22. At that point you're going to be better off in all but the most edge of cases mounting a gauss instead.

I would love some ER Light PPCs though.

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #289 on: 25 August 2011, 20:14:45 »
Re-reading some Wolverine stuff and I remembered that they had something called Enhanced ER PPCs. Essentially, IS ER PPCs but dealing 12 points of damage. A good in-between weapon and something that I can see happening 83 years after the Heavy, Snub-nose, and Light PPCs' debut.

I think they're abbreviated NER PPC (see above)

I also think they should be IS tech 3150.  IF for no other reason, the Wolverines built them, and from a mechanical POV, they're back to burning through the head armor and threatening a crit for ferro-Lamenor armored mechs. 

They might make ER PPCs obsolete.  I don't really worry about that.
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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #290 on: 25 August 2011, 23:02:03 »
(Non-Clan) Periphery
Elites - Yeah...

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #291 on: 26 August 2011, 10:09:48 »
While hardly an expert on the Dark Age, I was under the impression that Clantech was a RotS/Clan thing
Clantech is a Clan/Whoever can afford it, deal.

If you want it, the Sea Fox will sell it to you for a reasonable price. There's no evidence, that I've seen, that any of the Clan tech stuff we've seen in the DA came from non-Clan origins. All the dossiers we've see point out that all the Clan in IS hands mechs we've seen were either salvaged, bought, or otherwise acquired from the Clans. The only possible exception I've noticed is the Jaguar's sneak peek fluff, which indicated it's built by an IS company, but incorporates ATMs. Of course, it doesnt say where they got the ATM's, so it's possible they've got a deal with the Sea Fox too.

Fallen_Raven

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #292 on: 26 August 2011, 17:22:29 »
RotS
Paladins, Advanced/experimental Clantech
First Line troops - Clantehch
Second Line troops, SLDF levels

Great houses (and MoC)
Elites - Clantech (bought/stole from Clans, RotS)
First line SLDF tech
Second Line standard tech.

(Non-Clan) Periphery
Elites - Yeah...
First Line SLDF Tech
Second Line Standard/Retrotech.

Council of six
Elites-Clan experiental
First Line - Clan Standard
Second Line SLDF tech


SLDF tech is severly out dated by this point. I'm not giving up my ultra10s or ER Mediums any time soon, and you can have my Streak 6s when you pry them from my cold fingers. And Plasmas, RACs, and Vehicular Stealth are all new tech. In many cases Clan gear isn't the ideal option either, since they don't produce stealth and C3 based technology. I'd figure that many (IS and some Periphery) units would use the tech that was recently added to Tournament Legal in place of Clan gear.
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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #293 on: 26 August 2011, 21:12:03 »
SLDF tech is severly out dated by this point. I'm not giving up my ultra10s or ER Mediums any time soon, and you can have my Streak 6s when you pry them from my cold fingers. And Plasmas, RACs, and Vehicular Stealth are all new tech. In many cases Clan gear isn't the ideal option either, since they don't produce stealth and C3 based technology. I'd figure that many (IS and some Periphery) units would use the tech that was recently added to Tournament Legal in place of Clan gear.

Poor choice of words on my part.  By SLDF I meant Inner Sphere 'non-introductory' tech
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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #294 on: 27 August 2011, 04:53:02 »
Is there room in the Clan arsenals for Clan Light PPCs? Or is that role occupied by something else? It seems to me that they would fall in performance somewhere between ERMLs and ERLLs.

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #295 on: 27 August 2011, 08:57:56 »
Here is my $0.02.

I'd rather see improvements on what tech we have now with less disadvantages, then huge leaps in tech with major disadvantages.

I think Triple Heat Sinks are a none starter.  Any mech you build now starts with 30 HS at no cost.  Add 10 heat sinks, and you are now shedding 60 heat a turn.  Unless you weapons are generating 10+ heat per shot you may as well take heat out of the game.  I see DHS that only take up 1 slot instead of 2.  That is a realistic follow on to what already exists. 

In regards to weapons I would like to see some new items come out instead of "ER Light weight, Penetrating Large Laser".  I'd just called it a "Photon Cannon" or something.  I'd also add some kind of new damage dynamic.  The roll on the hit location chart and it damages that location and the two adjacent locations (or something).  Maybe it does 1 point of damage, and 1 internal (with no chance of a crit).

As far as armor, keep it what it is now, just have it take up less (or no) internal slots.  I always thought that was a stupid rule.  Same with endo-steel.

Engines should weigh 25% less but take up the same number of slots as a standard engine.


Khymerion

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #296 on: 27 August 2011, 09:16:25 »
That honestly doesn't sound completely unreasonable.
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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #297 on: 27 August 2011, 15:40:52 »
Poor choice of words on my part.  By SLDF I meant Inner Sphere 'non-introductory' tech

Fair enough. But I still think that the "Star League" equipment (and the weapons that fill out the sets) aren't nearly as impressive as some of the things that have come out of IS labs lately. Some of the electronics and armors allow for specialized designs that can beat Clan mechs (in certain conditions, and breaking zellbrigen, but still legitimate wins). That says to me that some units might trade Clan tech for Advanced/Experimental IS gear.
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Talz

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #298 on: 27 August 2011, 16:21:12 »
The cutting edge inner sphere tech has overshadowed much of the SLDF 'lostech' but Double Heatsinks are SLDF tech and are still awefully impressive.  The Chameleon & Null-Sig systems are still nasty bits of work as well.

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Re: What new technology for 3150
« Reply #299 on: 27 August 2011, 17:02:22 »
I really don't think the weapons need much improvemnets. Remember these weapons have often been in use for 500+ years, they're near or at the end of the development train. They simply can't be improved.

Armor and heat are similiar. These are technologies that have been worked on for many centuries, there's no good reason for them to take a sudden jump in quality.

What I see as technologies that have room for improvement are support techs, things that affect how other systems work. (eg Stealth tech, targeting computers, plasma(heat)guns, and so forth.)

Making a better gun isn't going to add to the game, it's simply going to make you cross out more circles (or the same if armor tech gets better at the same rate)

What are we going to do when Ultra Improved ER PPCs are doing 2 20 point hits at 30 hexes?

Do things like improved Blue SHields that affect Plasma technologies (they should) or improved triple strength myomers with localized heating (honestly, can't people figure out that if they put them in a heated flexible pipe, they're going to work all the time?)

We don't need better guns, in fact I think they would be bad for the game. We need technologies that help define units roles within a unit (for instance leadership technologies gain a bonus for initiative, expanding on that might make the various units more interesting)

Better guns are frikking boring. A few variations on the theme won't hurt, but look at the lists we already have versus what's actually used most of the time.
Let Miley lick the hammers!

 

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