Author Topic: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!  (Read 2122 times)

Liam's Ghost

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Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« on: 16 February 2020, 02:48:12 »
Premise: It's 3130, and after decades of a reasonable balance of naval power, somebody's broken the unspoken taboo and started investing in new WarShips. Not just dinky little pocket warships or tiny retrotech gunboats, but actual WarShips.

Your chosen sovereign has declared that your state will not be left behind, and has ordered a crash program to rapidly build up your own WarShip fleet.

Here's the catch, while there was a lot of reconstruction of naval infrastructure after the Jihad, this concentrated on civilian jumpship construction using fairly small, prefabricated shipyard and factory modules that could be built in one place and assembled quickly elsewhere.

What this means is that while you have plenty of shipyard space to work with, the construction slips allocated to the task can only accommodate a vessel up to 150,000 tons. So that's your size limit for your first generation of new warships. Your sovereign informs you that waiting for larger construction slips is not an option (and if they already have them, those are busy with other projects)

Beyond that, you have access to everything your chosen state would reasonably have access to, and your sovereign wants to see what you can come up with.

EDIT: Some things to consider:
1) This is just before the HPG network collapses, so actual construction is going to hit a big delay.
2) The houses are still in their "It's a really good idea to downsize the armies" state, so large complements of aerofighters should probably be avoided. They simply aren't available.
3) You can design for any state. The facilities necessary to build one of these ships is theoretically available to anybody, even a periphery state or one of the free worlds states could set one up. Actually going through with it is debatable however. This is just the designing stage. And even Tillman let the USN get wacky in the design stage.
« Last Edit: 16 February 2020, 02:57:33 by Liam's Ghost »
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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marcussmythe

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #1 on: 16 February 2020, 08:59:17 »
Do we have any idea what they want these 150kt ‘Warships’ to do?  A 150kt warship has less spare mass than a large dropper, so it wont be a rompin-stompin God of War, no matter what we do.

Possible roles for such a ship seem to be, not mutually exclusive:

1.)  Armed Jumpship.  Its a jumper, only able to maneuver and self-escort.  Could be useful for raiding forces.  Dont even try to make a ‘real’ warship out of it.

2.)  PWS Hunter.  Maybe some combination of speed and the range of capital weapons will let us build something that can bully PWS for space superiority.

3.)  Raider.  Again, speed plus HNPPCs means you can get in, blow things up, and get out fairly well - but with more focus on endurance than 2, above.

4.)  Escort.  Sure, this is all we have now.  But future warships will be (in theory) larger and more capable.  We should build something that will still have a fleet role when we start building cruisers and battleships.  Also, giiiiaaant piles of standard scale weapons are really effective on smaller warships.  Shorter legs than 3.), if its intended to be a part of the fleet.

5.)  Training Ship/Practice:  Its early days - we dont really know what to do with the things or what final doctrine will look like.  We should build something flexible, cheap, and cheerful - able to fill as many of the above roles as possible - so we can work out our naval doctrine and use the crew from these vessels as seed corn for staffing the future navy.

Were limited by slip size - are we limited by CBills?  Is there much pressure there?  Given the overall ‘aint gonna study war no more’, Id expect us to look at a either a patrol style boat - flag showing, customs work, anti-piracy, with long legs... or a battlewagon (to the degree possible) with shorter legs - given the anti-war focus, a SLDF-style vessel focused around long range power projection makes little sense.
« Last Edit: 16 February 2020, 09:18:57 by marcussmythe »

Lagrange

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #2 on: 16 February 2020, 09:41:58 »
In a functioning economy, costs are correlated with labor.  There's also some correlation between construction time and labor which suggests that costs and construction time are related.

idea weenie

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #3 on: 16 February 2020, 09:43:37 »
Mobile Shipyard?  You should be able to get ~40% of the hull mass in available tonnage, so assuming 150 ktons, that is 60ktons available, and a pressurized repair bay takes up 7.5% of its max capacity, meaning you could put in a single Pressurized bay capable of handling up to 800 ktons.  Unfortunately you will need to have Dropships docked to it 24/7 to provide the parts needed to build whatever is being built in the shipyard.  Hope you have your components being delivered in the correct order.


Or focus on building 100 kton jumpable stations with giant shipyard bays to allow me to build ships bigger than 150 ktons.  Those can be sent all over the place via regular Jumpships, giving me a distributed shipyard capacity.

Ruger

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #4 on: 16 February 2020, 12:32:32 »
Sounds like something is required that is sort of a cross between a Pinto and a Vigilant-class corvette.

Might have to see what I can come up with.

Edit:

If I did my math right, you should be able to have a 150,000 ton corvette with 3/5 thrust, 5000 tons of fuel, a SI of 30, 90 tons of lamellar ferro-carbide armor (108 points total; for simplicity’s sake, say 18 per arc), a total of 1000 double heat sinks, 3 docking collars, a bay with 6 doors for 12 fighters, another with 2 doors for 4 small craft, two 45 meter diameter grav decks, 20 escape pods, 10 life boats, a set of lithium fusion batteries, cabins for 22 officers, 82 enlisted and 46 gunners, and the following capital armament:

Front:
1 NAC/10 with 50 rounds
1 Killer Whale tube with 10 missiles

Front-Left/Front-Right:
3 NL/45’s
1 Barracuda tube with 20 missiles

Left/Right Broadsides:
1 NAC/10 with 50 rounds
1 White Shark tube with 15 missiles

Aft-Left/Aft-Right:
3 NL/45’s
1 NAC/10 with 50 rounds
1 Barracuda tube with 20 missiles

Aft:
4 NL/45’s
1 White Shark tube with 15 missiles
1 Barracuda tube with 20 missiles

Each arc also has 6 AMS with 12 tons of ammo per arc, 3 Large Pulse Lasers and 3 LRM-15’s with Artemis IV FCS with 4 tons ammo each.

This should leave 4577 tons for cargo in a third bay with 2 doors.

I would suggest the docking collars be used for two pocket warships or assault DropShips and either a fighter carrier or cargo DropShip.

Ruger
« Last Edit: 16 February 2020, 17:13:44 by Ruger »
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marcussmythe

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #5 on: 16 February 2020, 13:02:20 »
In a functioning economy, costs are correlated with labor.  There's also some correlation between construction time and labor which suggests that costs and construction time are related.

Of course.  But slipways available right now is different from budget available right now is different from crewing possibilities right now.  If we have a lavish budget, but only two slips of 150kt, that tells me to lard on dropcollars and electronics.  If weve got lots of yard space (just none bigger than 150kt), but not enough C-Bills to float the best of the best everything out of it, maybe I want to leave the more expensive bits at home and go for raw hull-count (quantity has a quality all its own...).  And whatever I build, I have to crew - do we have the trained spacers?  Do we have them coming if they arent there now?  Maybe I want to look at automation (ARTS and anything like it).  Maybe Im NIOPS and have lots of high tech but no people and its Caspers?

My own inclination is to maximize production of a cheap, flexible design, and spend anything spare on training, exercises, and investing in long lead time items like naval academy space - in the meantime, we can cross train with combat drop crews.

kindalas

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #6 on: 16 February 2020, 16:39:37 »
The Yeager Class Patrol Boat was developed internally by Redstone Clipper ships at the turn of the century.

The design was initially an engineering exercise to allow the corporate R&D team to explore the feasibility of building compact core warships in one of their Merchant Class Jumpship construction yards.

Redstone knew that once the post Jihad reconstruction of aerospace transportation assets caught up with the heavy losses from the WoB "Economic Trade Disruption" program that the various legal systems in the Lyran Commonwealth would start asking about who exactly gave Redstone the Licence to build Merchant Class Jumpships.

In 3103 when the Estates General gave out general amnesty to corporations building military critical components Redstone shelved the project and focused on churning out the dozen or so Jumpships every year.

In 3122 rumors spread in the aerospace community that the Republic would be developing a compact core version of their Castrum Pocket Warship. Redstone took this as an opportunity to continue development of the Yeager Class.

The finalized block I design kept the docking hard points of the Merchant and it's elegant KF boom system that has served that design so well. As it was developed as a light weight Patrol Craft an extremely advanced set of senors and C3 systems were incorporated into the designs primary structure. However the expense of these systems led to the omission of the planned lithium fusion battery system which allowed for a considerable amount of parts interchange between the Merchant's KF control systems and that of the Yeager.

The weapons layout was based around six heavy naval autocannons, supporting sub cap lasers and a layer of LBX autocannons. There is a heavy layer of missile defense systems and the vessel supports a dozen fighters and two small craft.

The Block II design will probably abandon the Heavy Autocannons for subcap versions and a lithium battery system.

The current production run of the Block I models is expected to run until 3135. Redstone has a dozen construction bays that it currently shares between the Yeager and the Merchants it builds. The Block II may never happen if larger dedicated construction bays are built.



Code: [Select]
Yeager Patrol Boat
Mass: 120,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3130
Mass: 120,000
Battle Value: 54,038
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-F
Cost: 6,515,152,000 C-bills

Fuel: 750 tons (3,750)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 5
Heat Sinks: 0 (0)
Structural Integrity: 95

Armor
    Nose: 68
    Fore Sides: 65/65
    Aft Sides: 65/65
    Aft: 51

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (12)            6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (2)         2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (1000.0 tons)     2 Doors   

Ammunition:
    960 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (8 tons),
    160 rounds of LB 20-X Cluster ammunition (8 tons),
    60 rounds of NAC/30 ammunition (4.8 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 2
Grav Decks: 2 (70 m, 70 m)
Escape Pods: 10
Life Boats: 10
Crew:  15 officers, 54 enlisted/non-rated, 21 gunners, 34 bay personnel, 10 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Naval C3
228 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (70 Heat)
2 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                 48   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
10 Anti-Missile System                      10   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1440 shots)
2 LB 20-X AC                                12   4(40)   4(40)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (100 shots)
FRS/FLS (122 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)                 100  30(300) 30(300) 30(300)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (10 shots)
10 Anti-Missile System                      10   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1440 shots)
2 LB 20-X AC                                12   4(40)   4(40)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (100 shots)
RBS/LBS (218 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)                 100  30(300) 30(300) 30(300)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (10 shots)
4 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                 96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
10 Anti-Missile System                      10   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1440 shots)
2 LB 20-X AC                                12   4(40)   4(40)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (100 shots)
ARS/ALS (122 Heat)
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)                 100  30(300) 30(300) 30(300)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (10 shots)
10 Anti-Missile System                      10   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1440 shots)
2 LB 20-X AC                                12   4(40)   4(40)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (100 shots)
Aft (70 Heat)
2 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                 48   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
10 Anti-Missile System                      10   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1440 shots)
2 LB 20-X AC                                12   4(40)   4(40)    0(0)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 20-X Cluster Ammo (100 shots)


Lagrange

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #7 on: 16 February 2020, 22:49:02 »
The Taurian Concordat Admiralty decided to go with a scaled down version of the old Hammer design that had served the TC so well in the past.  Due to emergency nature of building, the first buildout is designed to be particularly cheap and fast to produce.

The Weasel is small fast multi-role warship designed to defend the Taurian Concordat from all aggressors.
  • Raider: Jump into a system and wreck havoc on orbital infrastructure or an orbital bombardment.  It's heavy anti-fighter array of weapons are designed to rapidly eliminate low-end aerospace defenses.
  • Harrier: Lock into the heading and acceleration of any slower large craft unit, then eliminate it at extreme range with capital weapons.  It's aided in this by the Eyespy dropshuttle (carried as cargo) which provides Naval-C3 accuracy while remaining difficult to target by capital weapons.  This is it's namesake tactic, as it is very hard to shake off.
  • Sniper: Wipe out stationary targets from beyond-viable range with the light naval gauss cannon.
  • Picket: Using it's large naval comm scanner to detect and respond to incoming threats.
  • Fleet Screen: The heavy AMS and Screen Launchers mean the Weasel can effectively defend future fleets.
  • Fleet Spotter: The Naval C3 and Screen Launchers mean the Weasel can survive short range against enemy fleets while calling in heavy extreme-range fire.
  • Destroyer: Using it's high acceleration and Screen Launchers to get close to an opponent, the Weasel can bring to bear an impressive battery of lighter weaponry capable of shredding pocket warships.
  • Surgeon: Ancillary arrays of Large VSP lasers provide the ability to effectively hit called shot targets against any warships which have been stripped of armor.
  • Aerospace Spotter: When paired with a deep space jumpship, the Weasel makes an effective spotter for Ghost Fighters in a high speed engagement.
The token aerospace complement are useful for ECM cracking, inspections, surface transport, boarding, and other such duties.  Although space is extremely tight on the Weasel, it retains supplies for a standard 1-year deployment.

The Weasel is not a battleship since it has only modest armor and capital weapons.  It's also not a dropship carrier since it has no dropship collars.  It can't plug into the HPG network.  It is not an ASF carrier and it can't transport any significant ground forces.  The Weasel lacks a Lithium Fusion battery halving it's strategic maneuverability.  All of these compromises are deemed necessary to quickly get a few warships constructed for defensive uses.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Weasel
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $5,324,874,000.00
Magazine Cost: $2,700,000.00
BV2: 76,816

Mass: 150,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
1 Naval Gauss Rifle Light
56 AMS (IS)
16 Screen Launcher
180 PPC ER+Cap (IS)
18 Laser Large Variable Speed
2 Naval Laser 55

Class/Model/Name: Weasel
Mass: 150,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 45,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 5
Maximum: 8
Controls: 375.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (5 Integrity) 67,875.00
Jump Sail: (3 Integrity) 38.00
Structural Integrity: 95 14,250.00
Total Heat Sinks: 2088(4176) Double 1,743.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 7500 points 1,530.00
Fire Control Computers: 756.00
Armor: 402 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 285.00
Fore: 102
Fore-Left/Right: 60/60
Aft-Left/Right: 60/60
Aft: 60

Grav Decks:
Small: 1 50.00
Escape Pods: 20 140.00
Life Boats: 20 140.00

Crew And Passengers:
24 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 240.00
51 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 357.00
64 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 448.00
90 Bay Personnel 0.00
1st Class Passengers 0.00
2nd Class Passengers 0.00
100 Steerage Passengers 500.00

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
1 Naval Gauss Rifle Light Nose 9 150 (15-C) Extreme-C 4,500.00
7x 2 AMS (IS) Nose 14 42 (4.2-C) 7.00
4x 1 Screen Launcher Nose 40 60 (6-C) 160.00
8x 9 PPC ER+Cap (IS) FL 1440 1080 (108-C) 576.00
3x 2 Laser Large Variable Speed FL 60 60 (6-C) 54.00
8x 9 PPC ER+Cap (IS) FR 1440 1080 (108-C) 576.00
3x 2 Laser Large Variable Speed FR 60 60 (6-C) 54.00
7x 2 AMS (IS) LBS 14 42 (4.2-C) 7.00
4x 1 Screen Launcher LBS 40 60 (6-C) 160.00
2 Laser Large Variable Speed LBS 20 20 (2-C) 18.00
7x 2 AMS (IS) RBS 14 42 (4.2-C) 7.00
4x 1 Screen Launcher RBS 40 60 (6-C) 160.00
2 Laser Large Variable Speed RBS 20 20 (2-C) 18.00
1 Naval Laser 55 AL 85 55 (5.5-C) 1,100.00
2x 9 PPC ER+Cap (IS) AL 360 270 (27-C) 144.00
1 Naval Laser 55 AR 85 55 (5.5-C) 1,100.00
2x 9 PPC ER+Cap (IS) AR 360 270 (27-C) 144.00
2 Laser Large Variable Speed Aft 20 20 (2-C) 18.00
7x 2 AMS (IS) Aft 14 42 (4.2-C) 7.00
4x 1  Screen Launcher Aft 40 60 (6-C) 160.00

Ammo Rounds Mass
AMS (IS) Ammo 16800 1,400.00
Screen Launcher Ammo 160 1,600.00
Naval Gauss Rifle Light Ammo 300 60.00

Equipment Mass
Naval C3      1,500.00
NCSS Large 500.00
Imager Hyperspectral 7.50
Imager Infrared 5.00

Transport Bays
4x ASF bays (2 doors)
2x Smallcraft bays (1 door)
1134.5 tons cargo (2 doors)

A later upgrade adds a Lithium Fusion battery.

Lagrange

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #8 on: 17 February 2020, 14:03:37 »
Of course.  But slipways available right now is different from budget available right now is different from crewing possibilities right now.  If we have a lavish budget, but only two slips of 150kt, that tells me to lard on dropcollars and electronics.  If weve got lots of yard space (just none bigger than 150kt), but not enough C-Bills to float the best of the best everything out of it, maybe I want to leave the more expensive bits at home and go for raw hull-count (quantity has a quality all its own...).  And whatever I build, I have to crew - do we have the trained spacers?  Do we have them coming if they arent there now?  Maybe I want to look at automation (ARTS and anything like it).  Maybe Im NIOPS and have lots of high tech but no people and its Caspers?

My own inclination is to maximize production of a cheap, flexible design, and spend anything spare on training, exercises, and investing in long lead time items like naval academy space - in the meantime, we can cross train with combat drop crews.
It seems like a tricky trade-off which may vary nation to nation.  In the Weasel design above I was trying to do something (a) similar to past designs and (b) cheap (on the assumption this implies quickly produced).

The Lyrans presumably have quite a bit of both commercial construction space and resources to use. 

ARTS bays are something that I've been wondering about design-wise.  However, they don't seem useful unless you have more ASF.

marcussmythe

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #9 on: 17 February 2020, 14:13:27 »
While Ive not crunched the numbers in-depth, ARTS doesnt look worthwhile.  It may go to the ‘future of the 80s’ core conceit of battletech, but most forms of automation and robotic controls in Battletech seem to be strictly worse than just slapping humans in things - this is a bit disconcerting to those of us who like our AIs and Computers, but may be a necessary setting choice to prevent Battletech from following a ‘tale of fighting Computer Programs’ path.

More broadly - I really like your design.  (In fact, I like both of whats been posted so far, and I as always love rolling around the ‘why this’ and different solutions to different problems faced by different powers)

Lagrange

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #10 on: 17 February 2020, 16:34:11 »
I think I'm unclear on what ARTS does.  If it's just Launch/Recover, Ammunition Load/Unload, and Refueling (as Jihad: Terra says), that's hard to justify.

On the other hand, if it takes care of maintenance and modest repair as Sarna.net suggests, it's actually quite useful on long duration deployments, especially when you take into account the ability of an ARTS bay to work 24 hours/day rather than the 8 hours/day of a tech team.

Daryk

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #11 on: 17 February 2020, 18:10:17 »
The one thing the Weasel is missing is a Missile Launcher.  You can't really do nukes without one...

wolfcannon

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #12 on: 18 February 2020, 09:54:54 »
Code: [Select]
                     AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Devonshire (Sloop)
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              180,000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Length:            363 meters
Sail Diameter:     894 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       4
Maximum Thrust:    6
Armor Type:        Improved Ferro-aluminum
Armament:         
    6 NAC/10
    2 NL45
   12 Large Pulse Laser
   16 AMS
    5 Barracuda
    2 NL55
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Devonshire (Sloop)
Mass:              180,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                       43,200.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 4
      Maximum Thrust: 6
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 5)                 81,450.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 3)                                              39.00
Structural Integrity: 40                                             7,200.00
Total Heat Sinks:    338 Double                                           .00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                   5,100.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                450.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   .00
Food & Water:  (60 days supply)                                         49.50
Armor Type:  Improved Ferro-aluminum  (139 total armor pts)            143.50
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                 27
   Fore-Left/Right:                   22/22
   Aft-Left/Right:                    22/22
   Aft:                                  24

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Cargo (1) with 1 door                                    20,000.00
   Bay 2:  Fighters (6) with 2 doors                                   900.00
   Bay 3:  Small Craft (2) with 2 doors                                400.00

Life Boats:  10 (7 tons each)                                           70.00
Escape Pods:  12 (7 tons each)                                          84.00

Crew and Passengers:
     19 Officers (19 minimum)                                          190.00
     76 Crew (62 minimum)                                              532.00
     20 Gunners (20 minimum)                                           140.00
     28 Marines                                                        140.00
     22 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 NAC/10(50 rounds)        Nose        20     20     20     --   60  4,010.00
2 NL45                     Nose         9      9      9      9  140  1,800.00
2 Large Pulse Laser        Nose     2(18)  2(18)     --     --   20     14.00
2 AMS(60 rounds)           Nose        --     --     --     --    2      6.00
2 NAC/10(50 rounds)        FL/R        20     20     20     --  120  8,020.00
1 Large Pulse Laser        FL/R      1(9)   1(9)     --     --   20     14.00
2 AMS(60 rounds)           FL/R        --     --     --     --    4     12.00
2 Barracuda(20 msls)       L/RBS        4      4      4      4   40  1,560.00
2 Large Pulse Laser        L/RBS    2(18)  2(18)     --     --   40     28.00
2 AMS(60 rounds)           L/RBS       --     --     --     --    4     12.00
1 NL55                     AL/R         6      6      6      6  170  2,200.00
1 Large Pulse Laser        AL/R      1(9)   1(9)     --     --   20     14.00
2 AMS(60 rounds)           AL/R        --     --     --     --    4     12.00
1 Barracuda(10 msls)       Aft          2      2      2      2   10    390.00
2 Large Pulse Laser        Aft      2(18)  2(18)     --     --   20     14.00
2 AMS(60 rounds)           Aft         --     --     --     --    2      6.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.00%)                                            1,800.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                              Heat: 676     180,000.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        1,549,678,000 C-Bills
Battle Value:      34,499
Cost per BV:       44,919.5
Weapon Value:      15,227 (Ratio = .44)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 985;  MRV = 932;  LRV = 669;  ERV = 280
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 320,537
                   (60,084 Structure, 232,395 Life Support, 28,058 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 184,765  (58% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      Not applicable

a gentleman by the name of rage redid this ship for me in the aerotech II.
thanks rage.

Overview:
After the devastating FCCW the Fed Sun High Command found a need for a relativly cheap warship to protect Fed Sun worlds until the warship program was restarted.  Deciding on the sloop class designation the new ship design specification were put forth to Federated-Boeing to see if they could build it.
One of the determining factors of the design was a short assembly time ( 7 months).  Federated-Boeing acccepted the challenge and set its best people to design and build the new class.

Capabilities:
Designed around the NAC/10, she is a dropship killer first, planetary defender second and fleet harresser last.  Drawing upon lessons learned from the 4th succession war on, the design team dreamed of a ship to take on and destroy enemy dropships, enemy aerofighters, enemy jumpships and still be able to function in a fleet.   Backing up the NAC is a dual pair of NL 55's and NL 45's to add to her punch.  Enemy fighters are dealt with by 12 large pulse lasers and 16 AMS defense system.  Her ship killing weapons are her five barracuda launchers.

Deployement:
Only one vessels has been built, the Devonshire.  she was completed in September 3070.  she is still on trials and the class's future is unkown.

The Resolute (the only ship built) was mothballed as downsizing of the Navy and concentration on the heavier ships meant that the Devonshire class was set to the side.    The loss of the Lucien Davion over Palmyra awoke the FedSuns command to the need to strengthen the naval arm and the plans for the Devonshire were brought out.  The Resolute was taken out of mothball and reactivated and a further 5 were planned.
Daniels Avenger                Clan Coyote
General Jennifer Daniels    Galaxy Commander Jim Skyes
                                        Omicron Galaxy
Clan Wolf in Exile
328th Assault Cluster(the Lion Hearted)
Star Captain James Sword

marcussmythe

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #13 on: 18 February 2020, 11:42:53 »
After centuries of senescence, the Lyran Warship Design Bureaus, and the the Lyran Naval Command Structure, was uncertain which path to follow in the early steps of regenerating their naval capacity.  Proposals were floated for slow 'pocket battleships' mounting relatively heavy capital broadsides, or for LF-equipped tri-collar 'space control ships', crammed to the gunwales with fighters, small craft, and capable of bringing with them a trio of similarly focused CVs with the intent to control the space over a planet for a relatively small investment.

Cooler heads prevailed, and the final chosen design was simple, almost simplistic, but served the needs that the Lyran Commonwealth faced.  Blisteringly fast for a warship, the trio of Gibbs Sunfire drives allows the Skadi to maintain a steady 2.5gs of acceleration and can push the trim little vessel to just under 4gs.  Speed was chosen as a focus to allow the Skadi to hunt down pocket warships and other dropships, as well as allowing the ship to serve as the scouting force for a future fleet (and avoiding combat with heavy enemy warships).

Armament is drastically rationalized.  Rather than attempt to mount meaningful capital armament on the tiny hull, the Skadi instead focuses on blistering point-blank firepower.  240 DefHes Defiance 2000 HiSpec ERPPCs, manufactured to clan quality standards and mated with inner sphere derived capacitors, serve to protect the trim vessel from enemy fighter strikes, as well as allowing her to crush the largest and toughest of pocket warships in a single broadside.  The dense AMS belts provide the wall of fire necessary to immunize even the Skadi from enemy missile fire, particularly nuclear fires - as such have always been the greatest threat to warships of any size.

20 Small craft are carried to aide the small patrol vessel in its role as a customs ship, as well as allowing it to board and capture enemy jumpships and dropships - a full company of Battle-Armor equipped marines also supports this role.  Unspoken but noted is the ability to replace some or all of those small craft with fighters if the need should arise, and the fledgling naval command is rumored to be diverting 'drawn-down' fighters to mothballs to further serve that purpose.

The Skadi eschews Lithium-Fusion Batteries, HPGs, Drop Collars, Naval C3, and other expensive elements to allow for a focus on cost control and to maximize the number produced under the limited budgets of the era - First Lord Ja'quan Angler having felt that hulls (which can be upgraded if need be) and coverage was a better investment than a handful of overly expensive superships - especially in an era where it is uncertain what the final doctrine and best use of warships would be.  Indeed, the only real extravagance of the small vessels (other than the use of Clanspec weaponry and armor) is its high quality berthings - literally every soul on the little ships reside in first class berthings, with expanded space available to carry a full second crew if need be.  This extra space allows for additional crewing to serve the ships most important role - as a training vessel for the next generation of naval ratings that will (hopefully) crew the behemoths to follow.  When not serving that role, the extra space serves as a further comfort on the long patrol deployments that the hulls are intended for.  A limited naval comm-scanner suite extends the sensor reach of the Skadi, without driving the cost any higher than needed.


Skadi Class Corvette/Patrol Cutter
Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Skadi
Tech: Mixed
Ship Cost: $4,533,632,000
Magazine Cost: $2,320,000
BV2: 97,813

Mass: 150,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide(c)
Armament:
80 AMS (CL)
240 PPC ER+Cap (CL)



Class/Model/Name: Skadi
Mass: 150,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 45,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 5
Maximum: 8

K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (5 Integrity)
Jump Sail: (3 Integrity)
Structural Integrity: 95
Total Heat Sinks: 2450(4900) Double
Fuel:   10,000 Points

Armor: 420 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Fore: 70
Fore-Left/Right: 70/70
Aft-Left/Right: 70/70
Aft: 70

Grav Decks:
Small: 1, 50m
Escape Pods: 30
Life Boats: 30

Crew And Passengers (all 1st Class)
123 Crew
123 Duplicate Crewing Space/Trainee Space (as 123 1st Class Crew)
80 Flight Crew
48 Battlearmor Marines

20 AMS:  Nose, BS, Aft
20 CERPPC (Capacitor) Nose, BS, Aft
40 CERPPC (Capacitor) Fore and Aft Sides

Equipment Mass
SNCSS

Transport Bays
20 Small Craft Bays (2 doors)
7,271 tons cargo (2 doors)

Lagrange

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #14 on: 18 February 2020, 20:45:27 »
The one thing the Weasel is missing is a Missile Launcher.  You can't really do nukes without one...
Nukes might matter if anyone forgets to provide sufficient AMS defense and the TCN would certainly consider using them.  But on this small of a design, it seems like Alamos via aerospace fighters are more efficient.  This way, the nukes take only a few tons of cargo.

The Skadi is a brutal damage-dealer with that weapons array, and it's a bit cheaper than the TCN design as well :)

Daryk

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #15 on: 18 February 2020, 20:57:12 »
A brutal short-range damage-dealer, sure.

marcussmythe

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #16 on: 18 February 2020, 21:09:20 »
A brutal short-range damage-dealer, sure.

A long gun design (NL/55) was considered, but these little spit-kits just cant take big guns well - I ended up with no meaningful punch unless I cut thrust way back, and thats just asking for a big fish to come take your lunch money.

I like the Light NGauss sniper approach, but decided to go for simplicity - its the first hull in service, I figure lets keep it cheap and cheerful and easy to operate and build them in job lots.  High speed and SNCSS lets them be a scout for later fleets, and the huge AAA array means that if fighters ever become a thing, they shortly thereafter stop being a thing.  Also, she was built with an eye to mugging PWS - Castrum has a bit more reach and more armor, but Capship SI is massively tougher, and her speed and close range battery makes me feel comfortable throwing her at any PWS, possibly multiples, while costing no more and being more agile and independently jump capable.

Shes a product of her environment, and I think illustrates some of the edge cases that we were looking at back in Alsadius’s Arms Race.

Daryk

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #17 on: 18 February 2020, 21:11:23 »
Even a single NL/45 or /55 would cure the sniping problem...

marcussmythe

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #18 on: 18 February 2020, 21:29:01 »
Even a single NL/45 or /55 would cure the sniping problem...

It probably would, and that might be a cheap and cheerful refit if the lack of range proves a problem.

AngryButler with a KNIFE!

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #19 on: 21 February 2020, 22:30:15 »
I didn't, quite, follow the spirit of things via keeping ASF numbers down, but I figured anything less than a Vengeance was likely allowed.

----------------------------

The Langley class is the Republic of the Sphere's seemingly half-hearted attempt to join the naval arms race, now that the floodgates have opened. A lackluster design, it cannot seem to decide whether or not to be a jump capable Vengeance 'lite' or an overgrown pocket warship.

{Cho Argent 615 - You have to appreciate how, right from the start, they completely miss out on the bigger picture, in that the Langley was never meant as a standalone fighter, but is not much more than the means by which a Castrum can be rapidly moved around, and actually is more of an escort for the Castrum. Which, by and by, is still strong enough on it's own to hold the line until our larger yards can be re-activated. Whenever that is, that they'll be re-activated, considering the massive political furball going on in the senate over even allowing the Langley.}

Carrying true capital grade armaments only along its bow and aft, the Langley is quite obviously not mean to go toe-to-toe with modern warships. The four lasers that are carried, are surprisingly poorly thought out, as a even a single naval particle cannon at either end would be better, but then again, considering it's rather anemic coolant system, being able to drop one from the firing cycle was likely considered wiser than having a critical meltdown at the worst time. On the other hand, what it lacks in heavy firepower, it more than makes up in it's sub-capital armaments which are enough to make most assault dropship captains re-think their life choices very rapidly upon reaching it's engagement range. Effectively two Interdictor SSC's worth of firepower awaits anyone approaching along it's flanks, and enough flak guns and Streak launchers to make closer approaches highly dubious at best. Additionally, while the Republic has long sneered at capital and sub-capital missile systems, it is well aware that those along it's borders have not, thus making sure each Langley has an adequate number of point defense mounts scattered across it's hull.

{Cho Argent 615 - It also makes for a good, and more importantly, public, 'dumping ground' for sub-capital weaponry in case for anyone wanting to snoop around. Thus when ordering parts to be stockpiled for the Langley, having a few be 'tested until destruction' and then disappeared off the books, helps hide the budget for other things. Such as, real warships.}

The only bright point for the Langley, is it's thirty-six strong aerospace wing. While still lighter than some dedicated fighter carrier-dropships, they are enough to make for formidable opponents when massed against lighter targets, and can quickly overwhelm most dropships, even the older pocket warships, but still are just a hair too light of a force to do more than potentially cripple a peer sized opponent to the Langley, and would be quickly dashed upon the defenses of heavier WarShips. However, one would be wise to remember that the Republic's fighters have long gone for quality over quantity, with a strong Omnifighter preference, and so can actually punch far heavier than they seem.

{Cho Argent 615 - I see someone forgot to tell this author about a certain classification of aerospace carried weapons known as 'nuclear tipped'. Go figure. Although they did peg the navy correctly in it's preferred stance towards fighter craft.}

Code: [Select]
Langley Light Carrier/Transport
Mass: 100,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3145
Mass: 100,000
Battle Value: 26,788
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 11,488,042,000 C-bills

Fuel: 3,500 tons (35,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 4
Heat Sinks: 0 (0)
Structural Integrity: 100

Armor
    Nose: 43
    Fore Sides: 37/37
    Aft Sides: 34/34
    Aft: 25

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (12)            2 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (12)            2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (12)            2 Doors   
    Bay 4:  Small Craft (2)         1 Door   
    Bay 5:  Cargo (1164.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
    432 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (6 tons),
    480 rounds of LB 5-X Cluster ammunition (4 tons),
    420 rounds of Streak SRM 6 ammunition (4 tons),
    320 rounds of Heavy SCC ammunition (4 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 2
Grav Decks: 1 (100 m)
Escape Pods: 22
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  20 officers, 45 enlisted/non-rated, 26 gunners, 82 bay personnel

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
200 tons of improved ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                                       Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                 Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (140 Heat)
2 Naval Laser 45                           140  9(90)   9(90)   9(90)    9(90)   Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (165 Heat)
2 Sub-Capital Cannon (Heavy)               84   14(140) 14(140)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Cannon
    Heavy SCC Ammo (80 shots)
2 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/3)                64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
3 Streak SRM 6                             12   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (2250 shots)
3 LB 5-X AC                                 3   2(15)   2(15)   2(15)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 5-X Cluster Ammo (2400 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (864 shots)
RBS/LBS (2 Heat)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (864 shots)
ARS/ALS (165 Heat)
2 Sub-Capital Cannon (Heavy)               84   14(140) 14(140)  0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Cannon
    Heavy SCC Ammo (80 shots)
2 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/3)                64   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
3 Streak SRM 6                             12   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (900 shots)
3 LB 5-X AC                                 3   2(15)   2(15)   2(15)     0(0)   LBX AC     
    LB 5-X Cluster Ammo (2400 shots)
2 Anti-Missile System                       2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (864 shots)
Aft (140 Heat)
2 Naval Laser 45                           140  9(90)   9(90)   9(90)    9(90)   Capital Laser

« Last Edit: 21 February 2020, 23:13:38 by AngryButler with a KNIFE! »
I love my Wiesel XII. Yes, yes I do.

Ruger

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Re: Another Design Challenge: Dark Age Naval Race!
« Reply #20 on: 23 February 2020, 09:25:56 »
Sounds like something is required that is sort of a cross between a Pinto and a Vigilant-class corvette.

Might have to see what I can come up with.

Edit:

If I did my math right, you should be able to have a 150,000 ton corvette with 3/5 thrust, 5000 tons of fuel, a SI of 30, 90 tons of lamellar ferro-carbide armor (108 points total; for simplicity’s sake, say 18 per arc), a total of 1000 double heat sinks, 3 docking collars, a bay with 6 doors for 12 fighters, another with 2 doors for 4 small craft, two 45 meter diameter grav decks, 20 escape pods, 10 life boats, a set of lithium fusion batteries, cabins for 22 officers, 82 enlisted and 46 gunners, and the following capital armament:

Front:
1 NAC/10 with 50 rounds
1 Killer Whale tube with 10 missiles

Front-Left/Front-Right:
3 NL/45’s
1 Barracuda tube with 20 missiles

Left/Right Broadsides:
1 NAC/10 with 50 rounds
1 White Shark tube with 15 missiles

Aft-Left/Aft-Right:
3 NL/45’s
1 NAC/10 with 50 rounds
1 Barracuda tube with 20 missiles

Aft:
4 NL/45’s
1 White Shark tube with 15 missiles
1 Barracuda tube with 20 missiles

Each arc also has 6 AMS with 12 tons of ammo per arc, 3 Large Pulse Lasers and 3 LRM-15’s with Artemis IV FCS with 4 tons ammo each.

This should leave 4577 tons for cargo in a third bay with 2 doors.

I would suggest the docking collars be used for two pocket warships or assault DropShips and either a fighter carrier or cargo DropShip.

Ruger


After some of these others, I decided to try out some sub-capital weapons with my design. If I did the math right, I stripped out the NAC/10's and Barracuda tubes and their ammo, and replaced the former with 6 gun turrets of Light SCC's with 50 shots per cannon, and the latter with dual Piranha tubes with (IIRC) 30 missiles each (adding an additional pair to the bow. Note bow and after missiles should have capital vs. sub-capital missiles in separate batteries). I also moved the aft NL-45's to the quarters (making those triple batteries into quadruble ones), and added 6 gun turrets of SCL/1's to each broadside and the aft. I also stripped out the LPL's and LRM's, and had to add gunners, and officers and their quarters. Doing all this did cost around 1000 to 1500 tons of already limited cargo though, leaving a little over 3200 tons of cargo for the ship.

Final armament becomes 16 NL/45's, 30 light SCC's, 18 SCL/1's, 1 Killer Whale tube, 3 White Shark tubes, and 12 Piranha tubes, with 48 AMS's.

I'd also consider a version where the number quad bays of NL/45's were dropped to triples, with the leftover mass going to increased SI (50), more armor (150 tons, or enough for 30 points per location), and the remainder into cargo. That would likely be the better model anyways.

Ruger
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." - Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

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