Commanders Edition - What's in it?

[Fear Factory]

Woods are a huge advantage when your main concern is not getting hit. If you're a light and fast unit that lost initiative, or a short-range brawler trying to close with a sniper(or myriad other situations), you don't care about the penalty on your end because you weren't really planning on doing much shooting this turn anyway.

I understand that, but what's up with water? I don't know about you, but there always seems to be a rush to occupy a water hex because there is no real consequence to use it outside of slower movement. I know you guys are trying to move away from BattleTech, I get it, but there are some drawbacks for getting into a water hex... the slowdown alone really tanks your ability to generate a modifier... which seems lost in conversion to AS.

[nckestrel]

Please don’t assume everybody at CGL is one mind. If I say something outside the offficial rules question thread, it’s just my opinion.  It’s not Weirdo’s or anybody else’s.

Even if it’s said in an official rules thread, it’s not necessarily all of our opinion.
Thanks.

[Fear Factory]

I know. Just trying to pick some brains here to see if I'm missing something.

[nckestrel]

Cool. Just didn’t want Weirdo to have to answer for my idiocy :).

Water can have breaches, but you need internal damage first. So yeah, not that much of a drawback.

[Fear Factory]

Cool. Just didn’t want Weirdo to have to answer for my idiocy :).

Water can have breaches, but you need internal damage first. So yeah, not that much of a drawback.

Ahhhhhh ok. What page is that on? I never caught that.

[ironnerd88]

I think it would be very difficult to adjudicate this in a non-hex terrain context if it wasn't symmetrical. How many inches of intervening woods create a penalty when shooting into woods, how many inches of woods create a penalty when shooting out of woods.

The short answer... 1" for both.

More answer here (this part of the discussion belongs in the Rules Questions board) [https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66008.0]

[Vandervecken]

Ok, now I've read what appear to be several different contradictory answer for how advanced Woods work in Alpha Strike. I think I'll just wait for my copy of the book, see if I can figure it out, and if not post in the Rules section.

Side note: Is the reason everyone loves water that you get your full TMM in water (unlike CBT) and partial cover and a free point of overheat, and the only downside is slow movement? Whereas in CBT water also means you use the punch table for being hit, and you get a lower TMM?

[Scotty]

The punch table thing hasn't been true since 2007, now it's full body table but leg results hit the surface and do no damage.

Advanced Woods have all the same rules as standard woods; the only thing that changes are that the modifier accrues based on total distance.  If any amount of the target's base/footprint is in woods, the woods modifier applies.  If any amount of the attacker's base/footprint is in woods, the woods attack modifier applies.  If the cumulative (across all intervening terrain features) amount of woods between the target and attacker (measure from closest point to closest point) is 2" or less, the modifier is +1.  If the amount is greater than 2" but not greater than 4", the modifier is +2.  If the amount is greater than 4" but less than 6", the modifier is +3.  If the amount is 6" or greater, LOS is blocked.

It is possible to have woods modifiers apply even if the amount of woods physically in between two targets is zero if either unit is in any way occupying any amount of woods.  This sentence applies to both standard and advanced woods.

Unless there is a very specific edge case I'm missing, anyone telling you something other than the above is wrong.

[nckestrel]

Ahhhhhh ok. What page is that on? I never caught that.

p41 Submerged Units.  water over your height = completely submerged.  water at least 1" deep but less than unit's height (ie. a mech) = partially submerged.  but both are submerged.
p48 Underwater Damage. Every successful attack against a submerged unit generated a Critical Hit, even if there is no structure damage.

[Vandervecken]

Advanced Woods have all the same rules as standard woods; the only thing that changes are that the modifier accrues based on total distance.  If any amount of the target's base/footprint is in woods, the woods modifier applies.  If any amount of the attacker's base/footprint is in woods, the woods attack modifier applies.  If the cumulative (across all intervening terrain features) amount of woods between the target and attacker (measure from closest point to closest point) is 2" or less, the modifier is +1.  If the amount is greater than 2" but not greater than 4", the modifier is +2.  If the amount is greater than 4" but less than 6", the modifier is +3.  If the amount is 6" or greater, LOS is blocked.

It is possible to have woods modifiers apply even if the amount of woods physically in between two targets is zero if either unit is in any way occupying any amount of woods.  This sentence applies to both standard and advanced woods.

Unless there is a very specific edge case I'm missing, anyone telling you something other than the above is wrong.

Got it. So it is symmetrical. There is never a situation where the attacker is subject to a penalty for the target being in woods where the target is not also subject to a penalty for being in woods when it's the target's turn to shoot.

[Scotty]

Correct.

[Fear Factory]

p41 Submerged Units.  water over your height = completely submerged.  water at least 1" deep but less than unit's height (ie. a mech) = partially submerged.  but both are submerged.
p48 Underwater Damage. Every successful attack against a submerged unit generated a Critical Hit, even if there is no structure damage.

Wow. We TOTALLY missed that! Now I'm a little nervous about that reduced partial cover mod... but man, those slow guys are going to have to watch their backs now.

[Vandervecken]

Wow. We TOTALLY missed that! Now I'm a little nervous about that reduced partial cover mod... but man, those slow guys are going to have to watch their backs now.

To clarify:
Before: I have a unit in waist-deep water, I get a partial cover mod, you shoot me, I get mostly upside (full TMM, partial cover mod, free overheat) but no downside (except slow movement).
After: The above, but also every time I get hit it's automatically a Critical. Regardless of whether I have taken internal damage or not?

[Scotty]

Correct.

[nckestrel]

water breaches existed pre-ASCE.  The clarification of partially submerged and completely submerged was posted as errata in July 2016.
The rules for breaches in submerged units predates the 1st printing of the AS rulebook.

[Fear Factory]

Was there any reason this was removed from the Command Lance ideal role?

Ideal Role: None; as long as the lance’s composite units are
of at least 3 different unit roles, the formation may be classified
as a Command Lance

If that was intentional, man... the force I was working on (my litany campaign book) just got invalidated hard.  :(

EDIT: I don't think this change was necessary. Not because I'm lazy, but I don't think this made the formation unbalanced since you always had to have at least 3 different types of units in it.

[nckestrel]

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=55832.msg1283375#msg1283375

[Fear Factory]

So what does that mean for force building? "None" meaning if you already had the 3 different unit thing going on the lance is fine, or "None" as in there is no ideal role loophole?

I might just keep the former rule in as a house rule... it really doesn't break anything.

[nckestrel]

There’s no ideal role at all for the Command Lance.

[LegoMech]

Got it. So it is symmetrical. There is never a situation where the attacker is subject to a penalty for the target being in woods where the target is not also subject to a penalty for being in woods when it's the target's turn to shoot.

I taught Alpha Strike to my friend and his son, and I explained it like this: At man-sized scale, a soldier can hide behind a tree at the edge of a forest and lean his weapon around to take a shot at an enemy while keeping his body protected. But these are giant robots - hiding behind a tree at the edge of the forest is like trying to hide a garbage truck behind a lamppost. Also, they tend to fire multiple weapons from multiple weapon ports, not just one gun poking through the trees. So if you move back far enough from the edge of the treeline that there are enough trees to cover you, then you also wind up with trees blocking at least some of your weapon angles.

That seemed to help it click for them.

[LegoMech]

Follow-up question: Will the quick-start rules PDF be updated to incorporate the rule changes?

[kronovan]

So the ASCE mainly deals with the ground map only. If you want the space rules, then the alpha strike core book and companion rules for abstract space and aero dog fights still work.

Yep, I get that I could continue to use the Abstract Space rules in the Companion along with ASCE.  However, I did see some listings for aerospace combat rules in the ASCE ToC. For me it's more of an issue that without all of the rules being included in this new book I don't feel compelled to purchase it. Although I strongly disliked the previous AS rules being split across 2 books, I've learned to live with that and along with eratas those rules have worked fine as supplementary rules to the SciFi RPGs I run. Had everything in fact been included in ASCE I might have bought it as an upgrade, but since that isn't the case I'm going to take a pass on it.

[Fear Factory]

Alpha Strike just keeps getting better and better.

[Thorvidar]

Yep, I get that I could continue to use the Abstract Space rules in the Companion along with ASCE.  However, I did see some listings for aerospace combat rules in the ASCE ToC. For me it's more of an issue that without all of the rules being included in this new book I don't feel compelled to purchase it. Although I strongly disliked the previous AS rules being split across 2 books, I've learned to live with that and along with eratas those rules have worked fine as supplementary rules to the SciFi RPGs I run. Had everything in fact been included in ASCE I might have bought it as an upgrade, but since that isn't the case I'm going to take a pass on it.

I am sure that they didnt add it due to two things. One, page count, and 2 that once again alpha strike deals with the ground map, not atmospheric/space maps. It is worth it because it's the most up to date rules governing alpha strike core, which is the ground map. Space stuff you can find in strategic ops and interstellar ops. Also as mentioned before your aerospace stuff that does not effect the ground map has not changed from the books you have on alpha strike though rules governing the ground map has changed quite a bit.

[nckestrel]

Honestly, ASCE came closer to dropping aerospace entirely than it did to including Space. (As in one of those was mentioned as a possibility and the other was not). 

Fortunately, there has been little errata to the space combat. If you already have the Companion, it's still perfectly good for that.

[kinwolf]

Question about movement cost with hex maps.  Moving into woods cost 1" more normally, does that means it cost half a MP more when moving into woods on hex maps?  Are there tables that shows terrain movement cost for hexes?  I didn't find any around page 68 in the book.

[nckestrel]

Question about movement cost with hex maps.  Moving into woods cost 1" more normally, does that means it cost half a MP more when moving into woods on hex maps?  Are there tables that shows terrain movement cost for hexes?  I didn't find any around page 68 in the book.

2" (1 hex) of clear costs 2" (1 MP).  2" (1 hex) of Woods adds +2" (+1 MP).
So a hex would cost 1 for the clear and +1 for the woods.

[kinwolf]

2" (1 hex) of clear costs 2" (1 MP).  2" (1 hex) of Woods adds +2" (+1 MP).
So a hex would cost 1 for the clear and +1 for the woods.

Oooh, indeed, looking back at the chart I see that it's 1" more per inch. I didn't notice that distinction before.  Thanks for clarifying. 

I take it we also drop the distinction btw light and heavy woods, both for movement purpose and LOS?

[nckestrel]

Oooh, indeed, looking back at the chart I see that it's 1" more per inch. I didn't notice that distinction before.  Thanks for clarifying. 

I take it we also drop the distinction btw light and heavy woods, both for movement purpose and LOS?

Yes. Unless you want them, then they are in the Advanced Terrain optional rule. (light, heavy and ultra).

[kinwolf]

Thanks  :thumbsup:

And found the optional rule you mentioned using the nice index  :D (long live indexes!)
We'll use that since we are used to heavy wood being +2 for mp/los and cover.