Author Topic: Fear 'n VTOLs  (Read 4299 times)

Goose

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Fear 'n VTOLs
« on: 27 March 2020, 18:03:35 »
Say you drive some Ferret variant, with a mast mount but no gun, For Great Recon; Seems to me, if you're doing your job properly, you are more worried of rabid indigs with SRMs (or any other infantry missile formation) unconcealing on the ridge you just picked for yourself, then of an ASF (with it's obligatory laser array) pouncing you.

Thus: Scout 'copters live longer with reactive then reflective armor?
Goose
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Cannonshop

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #1 on: 27 March 2020, 22:18:59 »
Say you drive some Ferret variant, with a mast mount but no gun, For Great Recon; Seems to me, if you're doing your job properly, you are more worried of rabid indigs with SRMs (or any other infantry missile formation) unconcealing on the ridge you just picked for yourself, then of an ASF (with it's obligatory laser array) pouncing you.

Thus: Scout 'copters live longer with reactive then reflective armor?

Scout copters live longer if they don't sit in one spot period.
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Sartris

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #2 on: 27 March 2020, 23:13:45 »
or stay far away from the shooting

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Goose

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #3 on: 27 March 2020, 23:16:09 »
It defeats the purpose of scouting to assume you will find nothing
Goose
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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #4 on: 27 March 2020, 23:16:48 »
far away means out of practical range, not out of visual range

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #5 on: 27 March 2020, 23:34:20 »
It defeats the purpose of scouting to assume you will find nothing
A fast-moving VTOL is a tough target, even for infantry.

Also, the longest ranged infantry weapons are consistently energy based.  (Mauser series, Intek, the tons of support laser variants...)

Greatclub

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #6 on: 28 March 2020, 00:04:58 »
Also, the longest ranged infantry weapons are consistently energy based.  (Mauser series, Intek, the tons of support laser variants...)

AC/2 field guns with flak...
LB/2 field guns with cluster...
Clan RAC/2 field guns...

/smartass

Daryk

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #7 on: 28 March 2020, 02:54:06 »
And a Recon Camera outranges them all...  ^-^

Challenger

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #8 on: 28 March 2020, 05:47:02 »
Thus: Scout 'copters live longer with reactive then reflective armor?

Thats an intriguing idea. I’d agree in your scenario that the most immediate threat is a concealed unit, of which infantry or battle armour are probably the most common.

The problem (as others have noted) is the assumption that they will be armed with SRMs. Thats probably a fair ‘on average’ assessment, but it is going to vary dramatically from world to world. I suspect that plenty of more tooled up infantry units are going to be relying upon heavy support lasers rather than SRMs.

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Cannonshop

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #9 on: 28 March 2020, 07:08:40 »
Thats an intriguing idea. I’d agree in your scenario that the most immediate threat is a concealed unit, of which infantry or battle armour are probably the most common.

The problem (as others have noted) is the assumption that they will be armed with SRMs. Thats probably a fair ‘on average’ assessment, but it is going to vary dramatically from world to world. I suspect that plenty of more tooled up infantry units are going to be relying upon heavy support lasers rather than SRMs.

Challenger

whatever else, the core of your survival with ANY light VTOL, is to stay in motion, keeping that TMM as high as is practical before you start going into sideslip territory.  With VTOL units (even with the rotor damage nerf) armor is crash protection, not combat protection, if you linger in one spot or travel slowly, you deserve to be shot down.
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Challenger

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #10 on: 28 March 2020, 08:48:35 »
True, but it can be hard to do a sneak and peek when travelling at 60-100mph.

Also, it is worth remembering that we’re looking at a worst case scenario for a VTOL, surprised at short range by an infantry platoon.

For the purpose of the debate, avoiding being hit has been and gone, the question now is what armour gives us the best chance of surviving the turn until we can bug out.

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #11 on: 28 March 2020, 09:14:21 »
True, but it can be hard to do a sneak and peek when travelling at 60-100mph.

Also, it is worth remembering that we’re looking at a worst case scenario for a VTOL, surprised at short range by an infantry platoon.

For the purpose of the debate, avoiding being hit has been and gone, the question now is what armour gives us the best chance of surviving the turn until we can bug out.

Challenger

Flying VTOL correctly:

"ooh! surprise!!" (mass of fire shoots up around without hitting)

Flying VTOL incorrectly:

"Ooh! surprise!" Boom, because they've been lingering and creeping along like a tracked assault tank thinking they're being stealthy at urbanmech-like speeds.

or...

"Oh shit, sidesli-" Boom, because you were flanking at 1 AGL to try to hide behind light woods and have become one with the terrain.

Trying to treat a VTOL like a 'mech is one of the main mistakes players make in this game, and it's encouraged by ideas like "Let's make the rotor into a gigantic fire-shield instead of the chief vulnerability of the vehicle!!"

Fact is, yes, it's tough...but you're using a VTOL, not a hovertank, Wheeled Tank, Track, or 'mech.  There are going to be tradeoffs and you need to run it accordingly.  one of the things about running VTOLs correctly, is you do not stick around in one spot.  You need to have your path plotted during the fire phase of the last round, with options thought out in advance to account for the other guy's objectives and equipment to the best of your knowledge.  This means you're sweeping the whole map, as much  area as you can, in a pattern or patterns, but not lingering-because if you're lingering, you're doing it wrong.

a no-guns ferret with a mast-mount is cheap enough to bring TWO (or more), if you need to surveil a specific path or terrain feature, you run alternates.  Choppers are not 'stealthy'.  if you want stealthy, you run a stealthy tank, or purifiers, or stealth-armored 'mech.

or you plot your movement to use terrain to screen, which if you don't want to become one with the terrain, means a high cruise speed and afterthought armor.

the exception does exist, of course.  Get you a Donar with Ferro-Lam, because someone thought that it was a good idea to make a vehicle with a 50 point damage buffer that ignores lbx and lrm impacts while it ignores terrain restrictions and carries more payload than an equivalent weight 'mech, and someone else thought inserting it into the game was a good idea.

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Daryk

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #12 on: 28 March 2020, 09:39:34 »
The main problem for the Ferret in this scenario is that infantry do damage in 2-point groups. That's too much to be eliminated by Ferro-Lamellar, and it only takes three groups to destroy the rotor.  If they get hit at all, they're in big trouble.

Jim1701

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #13 on: 28 March 2020, 10:59:08 »
If you want slow and stealthy recon, don't use a VTOL. 

Challenger

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #14 on: 28 March 2020, 11:45:45 »
Flying VTOL correctly:

"ooh! surprise!!" (mass of fire shoots up around without hitting)


See thats the problem, the scenario suggested offered a reasonable chance of being hit (4 base + 5 defender movement = 9+ or slightly better than 1 in 4)

If I’ve got a 28% chance of being hit whenever I peek over a ridge line, I’d at least like the designer to think about how to protect the airframe.

I’m not terribly disagreeing with your assessment of how to fly a VTOL, I’m objecting to the assumption that you will only get hit if you do something fundamentally wrong.

Challenger

Wolf72

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #15 on: 28 March 2020, 11:59:34 »
not sure how much armor we're talking about ... but switch to commercial, get maybe an extra .5 ton for other equipment ... bigger engine, VGL-smoke?

If your armor has less than 5 points per side, go cheap.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #16 on: 28 March 2020, 22:25:37 »
The main problem for the Ferret in this scenario is that infantry do damage in 2-point groups. That's too much to be eliminated by Ferro-Lamellar, and it only takes three groups to destroy the rotor.  If they get hit at all, they're in big trouble.

Nope . . . hits to the rotor turn into 1 point dinks . . . which ferro-lam will negate.

You do not generally have problems with sideslip if you do the turn early enough in your movement . . . which requires a bit of planning.
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Greatclub

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #17 on: 28 March 2020, 23:02:23 »
Nope . . . hits to the rotor turn into 1 point dinks . . . which ferro-lam will negate.

You do not generally have problems with sideslip if you do the turn early enough in your movement . . . which requires a bit of planning.
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Hello,

The damage reduction takes place first. Thus a PPC is lowered to 8 a medium laser is lowered to 5 an SRM to 1 and LB-X pellets to 0.

Then you apply damage to the rotor. So a PPC and an ML both do 1 point of damage and LB-X do zero damage.

Ferrous-Lamellor armor is good, it's not that good.

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Old ruling. Apparently the order of operations is the other way around.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=43051.msg991001#msg991001

Colt Ward

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #18 on: 28 March 2020, 23:47:25 »
Alright, still a dink . . . and since it no longer has the same frequency of Rotor location as BMR, it still going take more to blow it off.
Colt Ward
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"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Retry

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #19 on: 29 March 2020, 00:26:09 »
Old ruling. Apparently the order of operations is the other way around.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=43051.msg991001#msg991001
Really?

Man, my copy of TW and TacOps does not read like that.  For a game that doesn't change much, all that errata could sure fill a book.

I'm beginning to understand why 3025 is so popular.  At least then you know everyone's playing the same game.


Colt Ward

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #20 on: 29 March 2020, 00:39:18 »
Which version?  I think TW is on its 5th printing . . . and it only applies to specialty armors which are post-3100.  Not even sure we have a ferro-lam, reactive, reflec, or hardened VTOL.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Retry

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #21 on: 29 March 2020, 01:03:55 »
Not sure.  Copyright '06, if that helps.

No canon ferro-lam VTOLs, hardened VTOLs are not legal by the construction rules.  Can't find ERA or reflective VTOLs either so I bet you're right about that.
« Last Edit: 29 March 2020, 01:05:52 by Retry »

Greatclub

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #22 on: 29 March 2020, 01:36:47 »
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First published    2006 (original publishing)
that's 'Needed: all the errata".

« Last Edit: 29 March 2020, 01:51:37 by Greatclub »

Cannonshop

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #23 on: 29 March 2020, 04:17:37 »
Not sure.  Copyright '06, if that helps.

No canon ferro-lam VTOLs, hardened VTOLs are not legal by the construction rules.  Can't find ERA or reflective VTOLs either so I bet you're right about that.

point of order: Donar, has a published variant with ferro-lam armor.  (I recall we had this argument WHEN IT WAS PUBLISHED because the damage reduction plus the damage reduction from TW effectively made the rotor location immune to damage, and also immune to critical hits, creating a situation where you can hover, and as long as the hits go to the rotor, the vehicle was immune to any and all damage types.)

second, the rotor damage reduction automatically drops to a minimum 1 point because it's 1/10th damage-you need an AC/20 hit to the rotor with Ferro Lam to inflict 1 point of armor damage.  a 2 point hit from an infantry unit ends up with the same result as a group of five from an LRM carrier-which is to say, 1/10th, round DOWN because it's Ferro Lam...

no damage.
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Daryk

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #24 on: 29 March 2020, 05:46:05 »
That's not how the rules question cited by Greatclub reads to me...

Cannonshop

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #25 on: 29 March 2020, 06:22:21 »
That's not how the rules question cited by Greatclub reads to me...

Interesting-they reversed themselves on that ruling and went with what a bunch of people were arguing for (and got shot down) back in 2006.
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Daryk

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #26 on: 29 March 2020, 06:48:45 »
At least we're all on the same page now...

Colt Ward

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #27 on: 29 March 2020, 16:31:52 »
Ferro lam on anything but ASF was not a thing until . . . what, TRO3145?
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Greatclub

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #28 on: 29 March 2020, 16:44:30 »
wars of reaving. osteon.

Colt Ward

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Re: Fear 'n VTOLs
« Reply #29 on: 29 March 2020, 20:10:00 »
Sorry, should have said in the IS . . . yeah, the Osteon is a real effectual zombie
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

 

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