Author Topic: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?  (Read 10224 times)

Retry

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #60 on: 03 April 2020, 14:31:07 »
Alternatively maybe the odds of the misfeed are much less pronounced in-universe but the realities of having a 2d6 game means that the lowest odds you *can* get for a single roll are 1/36.

Since the catastrophic failure isn't brought up in either the Rapier or Po fluff in TRO:Prototypes, chances are that it's in production because things aren't as bad as the rules might suggest.
If the odds in-universe were much less than 1/36, it would either not be represented at all or you could make another roll after the snake-eyes to check of the weapon explodes to reduce the probability of detonation.  Kind of like how Reactive Armor only rolls for an armor explosion in the event of a crit instead of automatically having an armor explosion upon a crit.  From an in-universe perspective, there's not any reason to model something like a self-immolating firearm unless it actually does so a significant proportion of the time.  Are regular ACs and autorifles literally immune to such mechanical failures such as jamming?  Probably not, but the risk for those is low enough that there's no point trying to model it in the simulation.  (And from an IRL perspective, tracking such things would not be particularly fun.)

But in-universe, it was apparently worthwhile to model in such a way that the failure happens around 3% of the time.

Fluff is fluff.  It's not very common for the fluff to elaborate on the failure modes of various equipment, otherwise you'd have a lot higher word count dedicated to the MASC, Superchargers, UACs, RACs, Blue Shields, Radical Heat Sinks...  Basically, the lack of evidence of HVAC explosions in the fluff is not the evidence of lack of HVAC explosions occurring in-universe.

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #61 on: 03 April 2020, 15:08:56 »
If the odds in-universe were much less than 1/36, it would either not be represented at all or you could make another roll after the snake-eyes to check of the weapon explodes to reduce the probability of detonation.

Game rules are game rules, made to add fun™ to the game. Whether or not those rules are 100% indicative of an in-universe reality ultimately isn't provable one way or another beyond our general feelings and suppositions.

But as pretty much everyone in this thread is of the consensus no military would ever equip their units with a gun that explodes, on average, once out of every 36 shots, the simplest solution would be that the in-universe rates of failure must be lot lower.

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Fluff is fluff.  It's not very common for the fluff to elaborate on the failure modes of various equipment, otherwise you'd have a lot higher word count dedicated to the MASC, Superchargers, UACs, RACs, Blue Shields, Radical Heat Sinks...  Basically, the lack of evidence of HVAC explosions in the fluff is not the evidence of lack of HVAC explosions occurring in-universe.

Alternatively, I propose that if the TROs don't bring it up, the failure rates in-universe for most of those technologies are probably *also* lower than the odds represented by the dice.
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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #62 on: 03 April 2020, 15:25:56 »
PPC capacitors don’t explode on a 2.  What laser are you talking about? I’m not familiar with a system with those parameters.
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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #63 on: 03 April 2020, 16:14:02 »
Alternatively maybe the odds of the misfeed are much less pronounced in-universe but the realities of having a 2d6 game means that the lowest odds you *can* get for a single roll are 1/36.

Since the catastrophic failure isn't brought up in either the Rapier or Po fluff in TRO:Prototypes, chances are that it's in production because things aren't as bad as the rules might suggest.
At the risk of fan-ruling territory, could further reduce the risk by rolling a confirmation 2d6 with the same result  of 2. But at that point you might as well just not have it jam.

EDIT; Oh. I didn't see that someone already said that.

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #64 on: 03 April 2020, 16:48:15 »
*snip*
Are regular ACs and autorifles literally immune to such mechanical failures such as jamming?
*snip*
Actually, bog-standard Auto-rifles (the cheap ones) are in fact "jam on fumble" (AToW page 266 refers... it's what the "*" in the table notes means).  It's also one of the reasons why my "Auto-Rifle+" exists.

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #65 on: 03 April 2020, 17:11:31 »
But as pretty much everyone in this thread is of the consensus no military would ever equip their units with a gun that explodes, on average, once out of every 36 shots, the simplest solution would be that the in-universe rates of failure must be lot lower.
I thought the simplest solution is that the militaries are fictional and are thus not bound to such things as rationality.
Alternatively, I propose that if the TROs don't bring it up, the failure rates in-universe for most of those technologies are probably *also* lower than the odds represented by the dice.
I may be wrong, but last I heard in the event of a conflict between fluff and rules, the rules win.
Game rules are game rules, made to add fun™ to the game. Whether or not those rules are 100% indicative of an in-universe reality ultimately isn't provable one way or another beyond our general feelings and suppositions.
I agree that you can't prove game rules are 100% indicative reality.  But surely it'd be close.

In theory, the game rules should add or maintain the fun of the game.  However, the current HVAC rules does not do that, otherwise this would not have morphed into a 3-page discussion on how the HVAC is the worst weapon in the game.  There's only two people that I've seen speak positively on the HVACs are both in this thread: One is the OP whose doctrine can be replicated better by conventional weapons, the other apparently likes them because people complain they're so bad.

The common sentiment in this thread mirrors that of my MM group.  Not one of them believe the HVAC is fun to use.  Every one of them believes the HVAC would be more fun to use, or at least become tolerable to use, if the HVAC's self-immolation disadvantage disappeared.  If the goal of that rule was to add fun for HVACs and BT in general, then it has failed.

There's other rules and restrictions that seem to exist only for the sake of themselves rather than actually adding value to the game, but the HVAC is the most obvious one and the one that's relevant here.

Cannonshop

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #66 on: 03 April 2020, 18:00:23 »
Game rules are game rules, made to add fun™ to the game. Whether or not those rules are 100% indicative of an in-universe reality ultimately isn't provable one way or another beyond our general feelings and suppositions.

But as pretty much everyone in this thread is of the consensus no military would ever equip their units with a gun that explodes, on average, once out of every 36 shots, the simplest solution would be that the in-universe rates of failure must be lot lower.

Alternatively, I propose that if the TROs don't bring it up, the failure rates in-universe for most of those technologies are probably *also* lower than the odds represented by the dice.

actually, the failure rates for MOST of those technologies can be managed, unlike HVAC's failure rate.  (tried to explain this before, will now attempt to once again...)

Ultra Autocannon: when firing double-rate, has a 3% failure rate.  this is true.  However, you're probably not going full-rock-and-roll every time you fire it.  this makes a fairly significant difference in performance, as not all situations where you need to fire that UAC require firing it at full honk, instead it's both a fairly narrow range of circumstances, AND, the repair is by comparison with the Explodey-cannon fairly trivial.

You use a jack to cycle the action and you change a circuit board-done.

MASC: you're not running at top speed EVERYWHERE.  Sometimes you walk. Sometimes you jump, sometimes you run, but not at your maximum rate.  the failure ONLY happens if you run flat-out-maximum-boosted as fast as you can.  Likewise with Superchargers.  this means in a NARROW set of circumstances you're running a 3% risk of failure, when operating normally, you aren't running any risks, it's only when you're pushing the design to its absolute limit.

see the pattern yet? 

Rotary Autocannon: can jam, can also be un-jammed in the field without specialty tools, but you're not likely to be firing maximum rate every time you pull the trigger because sometimes you need to have more shots available for more targets, sometimes only one or two rounds is needed, and sometimes you're under orders.  The ability to mitigate failure in the field means you can fire it more often, and it would still work with WORSE odds, because you can mitigate.

An Ultra jamming doesn't equate to automatic death for the vehicle and/or crew.  you can run away, you can park, you can lean on your secondary weapons, you can retreat.  you have options.

An HVAC exploding and you're in the market not only for a new gun, but also a new tank to put it on, an probably a new crew for the tank. (Location destroyed destroys vehicle. duh.)  and you can't mitigate your odds with it-you can't elect to fire 'normally', there is only the enhanced boom, no un-enhanced mode.  This makes it MANY TIMES more likely to fail, with catastrophic results when it does.

On a 'mech, you're only losing a limb or a torso-but you're also having to repair/replace everything else IN that limb or torso, and again, you can't elect NOT to use the enhancement.  With the longer range, you'er also more likely to take those shots, so there's another factor increasing your risk every time you pull the trigger.

There is a cumulative effect here; This is a weapon that can only exist in a fictional army written to be not only unconcerned with death/maiming, but also unconcerned with winning.  They don't care if they die, they don't care if they win, they don't care if they need supplies, they don't care if they inflict harm on the enemy.

this is an army built to lose, with the intention of losing, and losing spectacularly.
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GreekFire

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #67 on: 03 April 2020, 18:22:46 »
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The common sentiment in this thread mirrors that of my MM group.  Not one of them believe the HVAC is fun to use.  Every one of them believes the HVAC would be more fun to use, or at least become tolerable to use, if the HVAC's self-immolation disadvantage disappeared.  If the goal of that rule was to add fun for HVACs and BT in general, then it has failed.

There's other rules and restrictions that seem to exist only for the sake of themselves rather than actually adding value to the game, but the HVAC is the most obvious one and the one that's relevant here.

I enthusiastically and wholeheartedly agree that that the HVAC's self-destructing tendencies - along with the large majority of other fail-on-2 rules - should probably just straight-up be removed from the game. Shooting your opponent's 'Mech and having something cool happen (like a double tap on an Ultra) is fun for both players, but having something fail (like having a HVAC explode) usually just kind of leads to an "dang, that sucks" reaction from one and a "sorry dude" from the other. It doesn't *add* any real fun to the game, it takes a little bit out.

I mean, if your guns (or 'Mechs) aren't working, then you can't blow the other guy's stuff up. And if you can't doing that, then sheesh, that's taking the essence of BattleTech out of BattleTech.

Quote
I may be wrong, but last I heard in the event of a conflict between fluff and rules, the rules win.

Are you sure that ruling wouldn't just apply to fluff affecting actual gameplay? For example, the Marauder's Valiant Lamellor armor is fluffed to have special properties, but the rules can't account for it - therefore, the rules win over the fluff? But lowered in-universe HVAC failures wouldn't have an impact on actual gameplay (which would remain the same), so there wouldn't be a need for any sort of ruling one way or another.

In any case, the TacOps Engine Explosion entry in TacOps go against the rules > fluff thing pretty hard.

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this is an army built to lose, with the intention of losing, and losing spectacularly.

My opinion, once more: Alternatively, I propose that if the TROs don't bring it up, the failure rates in-universe for most of those technologies are probably *also* lower than the odds represented by the dice.

At the end of the day, though, it all boils down to this being my headcanon vs everyone else's, so it ultimately really doesn't matter and I'm coming to realize that I have way too much free time now that I'm quarantined and without a job.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #68 on: 03 April 2020, 18:38:51 »
I would again suggest that due to the lack of widespread adoption of the weapon indicates that it is,  in fact, viewed as a failure in-universe.
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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #69 on: 03 April 2020, 19:33:14 »
I would again suggest that due to the lack of widespread adoption of the weapon indicates that it is,  in fact, viewed as a failure in-universe.

Why not have it be a failure in-universe, but also have attained full production with lowered failure rates?

After all, as people have noted, there are always better weapon systems you can take for the same tonnage.
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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #70 on: 03 April 2020, 19:46:04 »
You know, jam on a 2, and roll for an explosion after that isn't a bad way to do it...

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #71 on: 03 April 2020, 19:57:00 »
I think that'd work fine, though my go-to solution to such rules is usually "kill it, bury it, and pretend you never heard of it."  xp

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #72 on: 03 April 2020, 20:02:33 »
It would be more complex, yes...

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #73 on: 03 April 2020, 20:08:17 »
I would again suggest that due to the lack of widespread adoption of the weapon indicates that it is,  in fact, viewed as a failure in-universe.

NARC qualifies under this criterion and doesn't even explode by itself

i don't even care about the exploding. what kills it for me is the weight

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #74 on: 03 April 2020, 20:20:32 »
(snip)  then you've wasted tonnage on a weapon you can't afford to use.

If you don't use it, it doesn't explode but it still costs you weight and crits and money. That doesn't matter what it is and if you do use it the odds of failure are the same.

There could be some cases where they never fail. Others they all fail on the first shot.

From TacOps
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R&D Start Date: 3055 (Capellan Confederation)
Prototype Design and Production: 3059 (Capellan Confederation)
and
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The lingering danger of catastrophic misfeed has so far prevented this weapon system from entering full-scale production.

Interstellar Ops has the HVAC being prototyped in 3059 and in production in 3079.

Since the HVAC is in production it sounds like they either solved the misfeed problem or someone not only took some stupid pills but has been widely sharing them. I would think that the rules need to another look and an addendum written for the production version.



No Infantry side-effects? I like that. 
[handwavium] perhaps the troopers/squad leader are able to better monitor/fix their AC than when it is mounted in another platform: Mech or Veh. [/handwavium]
... considering there are 8 of them manning one HVAC-2 (or 4+ on any other AC weapon).

Until there's a change in the the rules... that's how it looks to me.



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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #75 on: 03 April 2020, 20:39:48 »
NARC qualifies under this criterion and doesn't even explode by itself

i don't even care about the exploding. what kills it for me is the weight

except that using NARC isn't suicidal.  You object to how much the system weighs, but when you use it, it isn't running the risk of the system, say, targeting the user, or blowing up the vehicle, or blowing an arm/leg/head off.

they're drastically different things. 
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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #76 on: 03 April 2020, 20:49:06 »
NARC is also extremely useful if used on a lance or company level.
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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #77 on: 03 April 2020, 21:55:06 »
So that'd be very recent errata?  I can't find it on the main errata page.

Yes, waiting on real life to let up on Xotl.

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #78 on: 03 April 2020, 22:06:13 »
They’re not drastically different in their usage levels

Both are dead end techs in universe. Utility has exactly zero impact on that fact

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #79 on: 03 April 2020, 22:19:49 »
They’re not drastically different in their usage levels

Both are dead end techs in universe. Utility has exactly zero impact on that fact

The only reason I agree with you on the Narc is because the iNarc is so damn good.
We need more canon units with that thing, 'specially since half of those that do carry it are extinct Wobbie units.
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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #80 on: 03 April 2020, 22:23:22 »
Sure, lack of NARC doesn’t make sense

But it’s fact that it basically disappears

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #81 on: 03 April 2020, 23:25:43 »
Sad but true.

Though there are still considerably more NARC-using units in the game, and they managed to get into multiple TROs instead of just one.
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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #82 on: 03 April 2020, 23:29:25 »
about four times more NARC... though that's clan and IS including compact BA NARC (~50 vs 16 HVAC)

51 instances in 4500 units isn't exactly prolific

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #83 on: 04 April 2020, 11:39:17 »
No, it's not.
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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #84 on: 04 April 2020, 12:12:59 »

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #85 on: 04 April 2020, 13:30:25 »
That meme has SO many uses...  ;D

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #86 on: 05 April 2020, 21:26:23 »
Just seen a question  if the HV AC is usable as a field  gun . Infantry field guns are immune  to jamming  and explosions  . Looking forward to the answer.

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #87 on: 06 April 2020, 06:45:31 »
Just seen a question  if the HV AC is usable as a field  gun . Infantry field guns are immune  to jamming  and explosions  . Looking forward to the answer.

 >:D No jamming if rapid fire rules are used and no sploding for HVACs


And the errata team has said HVACs do not blow up when used as field guns.  So...yeah :)


https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48026.msg1110586#msg1110586

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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #88 on: 06 April 2020, 07:21:33 »
>:D No jamming if rapid fire rules are used and no sploding for HVACs



https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48026.msg1110586#msg1110586

so, we finally have the only reason anyone would build it-it's an overweight infantry support weapon that only works reliably for infantry.
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Re: HV AC w Caseless Ammo no extra risk ?
« Reply #89 on: 06 April 2020, 11:11:01 »
my field test unit would disagree with you ... but on the 22nd round of continuous firing they exploded.  My AU military is currently stripping any HVAC units and replacing them with Rifles and AC's as availability dictates.
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