Republic Line Regiments don't make sense FM3145 vs IlClan

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

So I was re-reading FM3145 and IlClan sourcebooks the other day and I was struck by something.

In FM3145 the Republic of the Sphere builds a whole bunch of new line regiments of Hastati, Principes, and Triarii. But they rebuild them just like how these brigades were structured pre-Black-out, where Hastati get 3 battalions of 'Mechs, Principes 2, and Triarii one, and a whole smattering of combined arms battalions and regiments. At the time I thought it was a little silly that they wouldn't have beefed them up more, but given the lore-mention that the Republic Standing Guard units were rolled into the RAF to bolster their numbers and get more regiments, I figured it was a manpower/equipment issue.

Now in Shattered Fortress we see the Republic is able to recruit about 6 more regiments of Fides Defenders, but at only 2 battalions each. Fair enough, it's been 5 years. There's also the Dawn Guard "Stone's Covenant" that Stone gifts to Julian. Again, 5 years, seems a fair amount of time for these new regiments to come online.

But then in IlClan, you have a huge smattering of new commands, the Redburn Guards, the Old Guard, dozens of militia commands, often times at a full regiment of BattleMech strength (10th Republic Militia Regiment had a medium BattleMech regiment of strength). And the idea that the Republic has a manpower/equipment issue that limited how many battalions they could put in the Principes and Triarii regiments just... doesn't work anymore. Why would the Republic have not just built their line regiments up to full or even reinforced strength, rather than building all these understrength regiments that get annihilated as soon as the fortress wall dropped in 3147?

The Republic under Levin and Stone had no delusions that their old way of things didn't work and brought the Republic dangerously close to destruction. Stone even took all his Knights and integrated them into the RAF to show how serious things had gotten. Keeping the Triarii and Principes at understrength levels as SOP was just a really dumb move, and now that we see they had the ability to equip and man all these new regiments... it's just inexcusable.

I get that the meta reason is the Republic needed more commands for IlClan to seem like an actual challenge for Clan Wolf, so they were added in, but it puts the previous books in a tough spot, as their old justifications for why these regiments weren't made normal strength for a line regiment now unravel. The Republic had the manpower and equipment, and still put understrength regiments around their territory just begging to get annihilated.

Thoughts?

[Church14]

Unfortunately, a lot of the last years of RotS were out of universe “because the plot demanded” and not really anything logical. If I had to hazard a guess, it was more units in order to play defense across all of Terra instead of building up the line units to better defend a few spots?

The funny thing is so many “militia” and other units were added that it kicked Terra from “wolves could reasonably expect a bloody win by using Falcons as meat shields” into it becoming an unbelievable win for the wolves.

[eaglenine2]

Crash mobilization since the Wolves are coming?

[Minemech]

 Just a tip, works are written from an in-universe perspective that can be wrong or misleading. The advantage of this is immense from both a writing and a roleplaying perspective. Basically, intelligence can be wrong or misleading even when it is good intelligence backed by quality sources. This is true in reality and in Battletech. Purchasing the product helps you make an approximation in understanding what is going on in the universe at a given time. There are works that are more defining sources of information in contrast to others, but that has been less emphasized since the Dark Age and the Jihad began. I like it when the writers work to enable alternate reads. This was actually true somewhat of the Third Succession War, but there were solid works you could rest upon in addition to goofy items like Cranston Snord's Irregulars Pack. The goofy items were delightful.

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

Just a tip, works are written from an in-universe perspective that can be wrong or misleading. The advantage of this is immense from both a writing and a roleplaying perspective. Basically, intelligence can be wrong or misleading even when it is good intelligence backed by quality sources. This is true in reality and in Battletech. Purchasing the product helps you make an approximation in understanding what is going on in the universe at a given time. There are works that are more defining sources of information in contrast to others, but that has been less emphasized since the Dark Age and the Jihad began. I like it when the writers work to enable alternate reads. This was actually true somewhat of the Third Succession War, but there were solid works you could rest upon in addition to goofy items like Cranston Snord's Irregulars Pack. The goofy items were delightful.

This would normally be true but FM3145 is written from the POV of Tucker Harwell, who is standing right next to Devlin Stone for most of Republic re-armament. He's in every scene Stone is in. If he's writing in there there's a manpower shortage, and that's why Stone is rolling the Republic Standing Guard (Their militia forces) into the RAF to compensate, that's not a misleading statement, it's clearly what happened because he's disagreeing with Stone on doing it. If he says there is a manpower shortage, either Stone is deliberately lying to him or the Republic doesn't even know how many forces it has at its own disposal. It doesn't work out.

There's even a militia unit on Terra that has a reinforced (4 battalions) assault regiment of BattleMechs. Yeah, there is no way that makes sense but th Triarii all still only had one battalion each. That's a major mistake. Given that FM3145 was released in 2013 in the real world and IlClan in 2021, I have to think this was caused by a change of plans by the developers, and there is no in-universe logical reason for these weird military set-ups.

Crash mobilization since the Wolves are coming?

If the Republic wasn't crash mobilizing as soon as the walls went up... then they deserved to be destroyed. They lost 9/10ths of their nation when Fortress went up, and were being invaded by at least 4 powers at that time. FM3145says manpower is the issue, and that issue won't get any better when they drop the Wall in 3147/48 and start losing planets as quickly as they did.

Unfortunately, a lot of the last years of RotS were out of universe “because the plot demanded” and not really anything logical. If I had to hazard a guess, it was more units in order to play defense across all of Terra instead of building up the line units to better defend a few spots?

The funny thing is so many “militia” and other units were added that it kicked Terra from “wolves could reasonably expect a bloody win by using Falcons as meat shields” into it becoming an unbelievable win for the wolves.

Yeah, this is my guess too. Looking at some of these militia units like the 102nd with a reinforced assault regiment in strength (Basically 2 galaxies), It's really hard to believe Clan Wolf succeeded in their conquest, even with 75~ clusters. Just one militia unit equals 10 of those clusters, unless they're full 5 trinary battlemech clusters.

[Minemech]

This would normally be true but FM3145 is written from the POV of Tucker Harwell, who is standing right next to Devlin Stone for most of Republic re-armament. He's in every scene Stone is in. If he's writing in there there's a manpower shortage, and that's why Stone is rolling the Republic Standing Guard (Their militia forces) into the RAF to compensate, that's not a misleading statement, it's clearly what happened because he's disagreeing with Stone on doing it. If he says there is a manpower shortage, either Stone is deliberately lying to him or the Republic doesn't even know how many forces it has at its own disposal. It doesn't work out.

It is plausible that Harwell knew far less than he understood. This is true even as Stone's aide-de-campe. It is also possible that Harwell's own work was meant to be misleading. 

[Minemech]

 To put things in a different tone, the Republic since its introduction in Ghost War was becoming a forest of mirrors. You never knew who could see what from where, or how they could use it. You could trust an increasingly smaller number of people. When composing a work in this environment, you only need it to be accessible to those who would get from it what they need to know. Other who might decipher it need to be necessarily misled, preferably in such a way where they reveal themselves if they are a threat.

[Church14]

It is plausible that Harwell knew far less than he understood. This is true even as Stone's aide-de-campe. It is also possible that Harwell's own work was meant to be misleading.

If we are going to say the sourcebook is wrong without any actual counter-evidence, then we can say the wolves didn’t actually raise 6 extra galaxies or that anything else in FM3145 is off. The field manuals can be incorrect if a novel contradicts it, but until there’s evidence contradicting it, we should be taking it at face value.

[Minemech]

If we are going to say the sourcebook is wrong without any actual counter-evidence, then we can say the wolves didn’t actually raise 6 extra galaxies or that anything else in FM3145 is off. The field manuals can be incorrect if a novel contradicts it, but until there’s evidence contradicting it, we should be taking it at face value.

I am saying that it is part of a genre within Battletech works and needs to be read in that light.

[Hellraiser]

I wouldn't think of it as "why didn't they bring the Triari up to full strength" v/s a "each unit is designed for a different purpose".

There is a reason why the Fed Suns has RCTs v/s LCTs v/s Independent Mech Regiments v/s Occupation Brigades of "average" 4 Infantry & 1 Tank regiment each "roughly".


The Republic Standing Guard units being promoted to the Line "RCTs" makes sense since most RSG is already Infantry/Tanks w/ a small # of mechs (Lance/Company).

If all you have to do is give them a couple companies of of mechs & walla, you have a Triari unit now, then it makes perfect sense actually, "as a first step".

It's also likely that the RotS was cranking up production lines & once those were up at full speed THEN they went about replacing all those RSG units & making some full Independent Mech Regiments with the new mech production.

Terra is TERRA so I'm never going to question a single 4 battalion Regiment showing up. 
The cradle of humanity is the most industrialized world in the IS, able to outfit the SLDF so I'm not questioning some diverted production to a "home guard" unit, or several.
Production "capacity" has never been an issue, it just came down to how many of the factories were running v/s mothballed & what capacity they were at if they were.

[Alan Grant]

If I was an author, knowing the Republic is about to fall, that this was already determined by the people who shape the universe's big events. I'd be reluctant to invest a tremendous amount of time and energy reinventing a lot of the Republic's military.

I'd leave the established units alone. Ones that have been elaborated on in existing literature. And I'd look to perhaps move or shape a few new things, but that's about it.

I wouldn't invest tons of energy painstakingly restructuring a military that is doomed to fall in the next book.

And if need be, I'd create in-universe justifications for that being the way it is. Like "they were slow to gear production up of 'mechs... oh and they were slow to train new mechwarriors... oh and they made assumption X, Y and Z that turned out to be wrong. Or they poured everything into the navy and space stations."

And if after all that, people still didn't buy it. I'd retcon that the economy of Terra actually changed a lot in the Republic years, outsourcing a lot of its manufacturing and its supply chains for many resources and materials, and that nobody realized that would be a problem... until the Fortress went up and they were cut off from a lot of what was needed to ramp up military production quickly. And by then it required a substantial amount of resources and time within the Fortress just to get production back up and running on Terra and the worlds within the Fortress. That investment in time, manpower and resources slowed everything down. In reality the Republic had simply dismantled its own ability to rapidly conduct a military buildup, particularly within the Fortress with the walls up. But the Republic's planners had simply failed to grasp the danger. Ergo, the end result was the military within the Fortress Republic was far smaller than everyone thinks it should be.

That's how I'd do it, if I was an author. People get the continuity of units they already know and understand (which haven't changed very much, people love continuity, they find it reassuring), plus a few new ones, and I didn't have to invest tons of planning and writing updating a military that I already know is doomed to die in the next book.

[Metallgewitter]

If I was an author, knowing the Republic is about to fall, that this was already determined by the people who shape the universe's big events. I'd be reluctant to invest a tremendous amount of time and energy reinventing a lot of the Republic's military.

I'd leave the established units alone. Ones that have been elaborated on in existing literature. And I'd look to perhaps move or shape a few new things, but that's about it.

I wouldn't invest tons of energy painstakingly restructuring a military that is doomed to fall in the next book.

And if need be, I'd create in-universe justifications for that being the way it is. Like "they were slow to gear production up of 'mechs... oh and they were slow to train new mechwarriors... oh and they made assumption X, Y and Z that turned out to be wrong. Or they poured everything into the navy and space stations."

And if after all that, people still didn't buy it. I'd retcon that the economy of Terra actually changed a lot in the Republic years, outsourcing a lot of its manufacturing and its supply chains for many resources and materials, and that nobody realized that would be a problem... until the Fortress went up and they were cut off from a lot of what was needed to ramp up military production quickly. And by then it required a substantial amount of resources and time within the Fortress just to get production back up and running on Terra and the worlds within the Fortress. That investment in time, manpower and resources slowed everything down. In reality the Republic had simply dismantled its own ability to rapidly conduct a military buildup, particularly within the Fortress with the walls up. But the Republic's planners had simply failed to grasp the danger. Ergo, the end result was the military within the Fortress Republic was far smaller than everyone thinks it should be.

That's how I'd do it, if I was an author. People get the continuity of units they already know and understand (which haven't changed very much, people love continuity, they find it reassuring), plus a few new ones, and I didn't have to invest tons of planning and writing updating a military that I already know is doomed to die in the next book.

There are some hints to that in FM 3145. Tucker stated that the Republic is running out of critical resources for production of military equipment (they already emptied their storages) and that they had to resort to expensive deepsea and asteroid mining to feed Terra's hunger for resources. Plus there were rumblings of reactivating the three Faslane yardships but they simply didn't have the resources to do that. But the manpower reason I won't believe. Terra alone has 12 billion inhabitants. If you mobilize every able bodied man and woman you should have more then enough to drown the tiny manpower Clans with mass. Case in point: Japan. Japan had it's partially rebuild Castle Brians but literally every citizen joined the fight swamping the Falcon Galaxy with an unending stream of partisan attacks leading to it's total annihilation. Why didn't they repeat this all over Terra? While Alaric made an example on Australia if he would try that in every city then have fun ruling an enraged population or even replenish your strength when inevitably military production facilities get drawn into this. Can't exactly rule an empire from a ruined central planet now can you? And should Malvina resort to scorched earth i would bet Stone would have no compulsion to unleash the nuclear arsenal the Republic had inherited from the Word of Blake. Wouldn't that be an interesting story point? Terra vanishes completly as the center of the Is and the story goes from there.

[Alan Grant]

There are some hints to that in FM 3145. Tucker stated that the Republic is running out of critical resources for production of military equipment (they already emptied their storages) and that they had to resort to expensive deepsea and asteroid mining to feed Terra's hunger for resources. Plus there were rumblings of reactivating the three Faslane yardships but they simply didn't have the resources to do that. But the manpower reason I won't believe. Terra alone has 12 billion inhabitants. If you mobilize every able bodied man and woman you should have more then enough to drown the tiny manpower Clans with mass. Case in point: Japan. Japan had it's partially rebuild Castle Brians but literally every citizen joined the fight swamping the Falcon Galaxy with an unending stream of partisan attacks leading to it's total annihilation. Why didn't they repeat this all over Terra? While Alaric made an example on Australia if he would try that in every city then have fun ruling an enraged population or even replenish your strength when inevitably military production facilities get drawn into this. Can't exactly rule an empire from a ruined central planet now can you? And should Malvina resort to scorched earth i would bet Stone would have no compulsion to unleash the nuclear arsenal the Republic had inherited from the Word of Blake. Wouldn't that be an interesting story point? Terra vanishes completly as the center of the Is and the story goes from there.

Na... don't like the idea of Terra going out via the defenders nuking themselves to deny it to an invader. I don't find that very realistic at all, and it definitely makes Stone look like just the worse person ever, utterly destroying every scrap of his reputation. I mean even Amaris didn't go to this scale. This action would make him worse than Amaris.

Stone is a highly controversial figure in the BT community, but I like the direction they took with him in the end. There was nuance to it, a faltering man trying to play a complex game he thought he could win as best he could, if he just pitted the right forces against each other. I was ok with that. Didn't love the guy, just appreciated difficult position he was in when they awakened him.

Your version takes any positive aspects of the controversy right out of the picture. Stone and the circle of people around him are just the devil, he destroyed Terra to spite the enemy, end of story. Stone's people like Tucker, all failed to act to stop this. Stone and the Republic are responsible for the total destruction of the birthplace of humanity. It's not a good last chapter. It tarnishes every good memory of the Republic forever.

Also, BTW this isn't at all what the original poster was talking about.

[Church14]

There are some hints to that in FM 3145. Tucker stated that the Republic is running out of critical resources for production of military equipment (they already emptied their storages) and that they had to resort to expensive deepsea and asteroid mining to feed Terra's hunger for resources. Plus there were rumblings of reactivating the three Faslane yardships but they simply didn't have the resources to do that. But the manpower reason I won't believe. Terra alone has 12 billion inhabitants. If you mobilize every able bodied man and woman you should have more then enough to drown the tiny manpower Clans with mass. Case in point: Japan. Japan had it's partially rebuild Castle Brians but literally every citizen joined the fight swamping the Falcon Galaxy with an unending stream of partisan attacks leading to it's total annihilation. Why didn't they repeat this all over Terra? While Alaric made an example on Australia if he would try that in every city then have fun ruling an enraged population or even replenish your strength when inevitably military production facilities get drawn into this. Can't exactly rule an empire from a ruined central planet now can you? And should Malvina resort to scorched earth i would bet Stone would have no compulsion to unleash the nuclear arsenal the Republic had inherited from the Word of Blake. Wouldn't that be an interesting story point? Terra vanishes completly as the center of the Is and the story goes from there.

A lot to unpack here.

The lack of fighting troops is silly as heck, but also consistent across other parts of the sphere for the era. In ilClan, equipment isn’t the key resource constraint, good pilots are.

 Stone actually would have serious compulsions about using nukes on Terra. Yes, he was a horrifying bastard during Jihad. But his mission post Jihad has been the stability, survival, and improvement of quality of life of the citizens of the RotS. He had the capacity to cause the dark ages and didn’t, because it was too extreme and would hurt too many people. He had the capacity to use the castles Brian extensively, but didn’t because he worried it would result in the use of orbital bombardment or nuclear weapons. I really don’t know what character you were reading about.

But back to topic:
The other theory that occurred to me is that the Hastati, Principes, and Triarii were pulled from a lot of troops outside of Terra. They aren’t tied down to any specific part of Terra and could comfortably deploy anywhere. The militia are drawn from Terra and  were defending areas they were raised from. Stone may have kept the groups separate because both served a purpose. The unit raised locally would fight harder than anyone else for their homes, but they might challenge/disobey if ordered to go somewhere else. The line regiments of the RotS on the other hand would cut losses and run, knowing that they would spend themselves when and where it was most effective.

It’s a stretch, and it’s all postulating, but could be something. 

[Metallgewitter]

Na... don't like the idea of Terra going out via the defenders nuking themselves to deny it to an invader. I don't find that very realistic at all, and it definitely makes Stone look like just the worse person ever, utterly destroying every scrap of his reputation. I mean even Amaris didn't go to this scale. This action would make him worse than Amaris.

Stone is a highly controversial figure in the BT community, but I like the direction they took with him in the end. There was nuance to it, a faltering man trying to play a complex game he thought he could win as best he could, if he just pitted the right forces against each other. I was ok with that. Didn't love the guy, just appreciated difficult position he was in when they awakened him.

Your version takes any positive aspects of the controversy right out of the picture. Stone and the circle of people around him are just the devil, he destroyed Terra to spite the enemy, end of story. Stone's people like Tucker, all failed to act to stop this. Stone and the Republic are responsible for the total destruction of the birthplace of humanity. It's not a good last chapter. It tarnishes every good memory of the Republic forever.

Also, BTW this isn't at all what the original poster was talking about.

That was meant if the Falcons went overboard. Only then. And let's not forget the Blakists tried that. But they prevented the attack themselves after it was LAUNCHED (Operation Meggiddo). So it's not like it hasn't been tried before. And what they did was devastating enough (salting the earth for parts of the USA) And if Stone was really a Blakist tool all along I'd wager they also implant some rather sinister aspects. Too bad this way was never fully explained or even woven into the story. Just a "by the way I am a Blakist tool lol" and then poof Stone is dead.

[Church14]

That was meant if the Falcons went overboard. Only then. And let's not forget the Blakists tried that. But they prevented the attack themselves after it was LAUNCHED (Operation Meggiddo). So it's not like it hasn't been tried before. And what they did was devastating enough (salting the earth for parts of the USA) And if Stone was really a Blakist tool all along I'd wager they also implant some rather sinister aspects. Too bad this way was never fully explained or even woven into the story. Just a "by the way I am a Blakist tool lol" and then poof Stone is dead.

Except there’s no evidence of him being a Blakists tool. None. Just fans postulating. So that’s probably part of why he didn’t act like one.


And let’s drop that track. Because it’s wildly off topic and keeps getting presented as a fact when it’s an evidence free conspiracy theory that tries to tie in universe circumstance together that can be explained easily by out of universe reasons for inconsistent characterization

[Colt Ward]

Explanation between FM3145 and ilClan is pretty easy IMO . . .

Force structure in FM3145 is what Levin was doing before Stone returned.

With IIRC Rock starting to show a change, especially in building the 'Redoubt' system there is a chance those formed forces in FM3145 were re-organized from offensive forces into defensive forces.  It is easier to train troops to be defensive forces, especially if they only have to defend a single place/area.  Troops expected to perform offensively takes a lot more time and effort to train if you are doing more than human wave attacks (see Enemy at the Gates opening Stalingrad scene) because they have to be able to execute different tactics than hunkering down & return fire.  IIRC, we do see Knights integrated into these redoubt's defensive forces/command which is one of the FM3145 changes Stone enacted.

The RAF kept a few offensive units such as the Fides and the ones we see on the worlds the Capellans rush such as Hall or some of the other worlds in the Fortress.  It WOULD make sense about the Capellans wondering where the other battalions of the defenders were if they had all been stripped to form say the New South Wales Militia or whatever.

[Diamondshark]

Reading this made me wonder something. Since the Republic used a system based on the Roman maniples, if the Clans didn't come knocking and RotS lasted longer, would there have been an equivalent of the Marian reforms to create a more standardized and streamlined system?

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

I wouldn't think of it as "why didn't they bring the Triari up to full strength" v/s a "each unit is designed for a different purpose".

There is a reason why the Fed Suns has RCTs v/s LCTs v/s Independent Mech Regiments v/s Occupation Brigades of "average" 4 Infantry & 1 Tank regiment each "roughly".


The Republic Standing Guard units being promoted to the Line "RCTs" makes sense since most RSG is already Infantry/Tanks w/ a small # of mechs (Lance/Company).

If all you have to do is give them a couple companies of of mechs & walla, you have a Triari unit now, then it makes perfect sense actually, "as a first step".

It's also likely that the RotS was cranking up production lines & once those were up at full speed THEN they went about replacing all those RSG units & making some full Independent Mech Regiments with the new mech production.

Terra is TERRA so I'm never going to question a single 4 battalion Regiment showing up. 
The cradle of humanity is the most industrialized world in the IS, able to outfit the SLDF so I'm not questioning some diverted production to a "home guard" unit, or several.
Production "capacity" has never been an issue, it just came down to how many of the factories were running v/s mothballed & what capacity they were at if they were.

The LCT argument makes sense except the Triarii or Principes are never described as defensive regiments, and we see Triarii regiments even being put on the attack in Shattered Fortress. A 1 'mech battalion for offense is a pretty poor offense though, even if paired with a Principes and Hastati unit (3 line regiments but only 2 BattleMech regiments in strength, not counting all their attached regiments).

If I was an author, knowing the Republic is about to fall, that this was already determined by the people who shape the universe's big events. I'd be reluctant to invest a tremendous amount of time and energy reinventing a lot of the Republic's military.

I'd leave the established units alone. Ones that have been elaborated on in existing literature. And I'd look to perhaps move or shape a few new things, but that's about it.

I wouldn't invest tons of energy painstakingly restructuring a military that is doomed to fall in the next book.

And if need be, I'd create in-universe justifications for that being the way it is. Like "they were slow to gear production up of 'mechs... oh and they were slow to train new mechwarriors... oh and they made assumption X, Y and Z that turned out to be wrong. Or they poured everything into the navy and space stations."

And if after all that, people still didn't buy it. I'd retcon that the economy of Terra actually changed a lot in the Republic years, outsourcing a lot of its manufacturing and its supply chains for many resources and materials, and that nobody realized that would be a problem... until the Fortress went up and they were cut off from a lot of what was needed to ramp up military production quickly. And by then it required a substantial amount of resources and time within the Fortress just to get production back up and running on Terra and the worlds within the Fortress. That investment in time, manpower and resources slowed everything down. In reality the Republic had simply dismantled its own ability to rapidly conduct a military buildup, particularly within the Fortress with the walls up. But the Republic's planners had simply failed to grasp the danger. Ergo, the end result was the military within the Fortress Republic was far smaller than everyone thinks it should be.

That's how I'd do it, if I was an author. People get the continuity of units they already know and understand (which haven't changed very much, people love continuity, they find it reassuring), plus a few new ones, and I didn't have to invest tons of planning and writing updating a military that I already know is doomed to die in the next book.

You bring up some good points, but honestly, Field Manual 3145 did not leave one with the feeling the Republic was doomed. It seemed to strike a more hopeful tone, with the Republic ready to go. Maybe I need to read FM3085 again to see why the Triarii and Principes were made understrength. Still, if I'm Jonah Levin, and I know every single regiment is going to count is regaining all lost Republic land, making understrength regiments doesn't make much sense.

And this point still doesn't get at the original crux of the thread, which is with IlClan out now and all these reinforced regiments running around on Terra, it doesn't make sense why the Republic didn't in retrospect just make every regiment full strength from the get go. It creates a paradox when reading backwards. A few extra regiments of militia I could understand, but several militia regiments of all assault mechs? That's a bridge too far.

But back to topic:
The other theory that occurred to me is that the Hastati, Principes, and Triarii were pulled from a lot of troops outside of Terra. They aren’t tied down to any specific part of Terra and could comfortably deploy anywhere. The militia are drawn from Terra and  were defending areas they were raised from. Stone may have kept the groups separate because both served a purpose. The unit raised locally would fight harder than anyone else for their homes, but they might challenge/disobey if ordered to go somewhere else. The line regiments of the RotS on the other hand would cut losses and run, knowing that they would spend themselves when and where it was most effective.

It’s a stretch, and it’s all postulating, but could be something.

Yeah, but you'd think your line regiments that could deploy anywhere and would be essential for reclaiming all lost land is what you would want strongest, not local militias that will only guard Brazil or Australia. Your Triarii regiment is what is going to help reclaim Liao from the Capellans, 1 battalion isn't going to do it. Giving them all four of the assault mech regiments from the 102st Terran militia probably would though.

Unless Stone's entire plan was to sacrifice every single planet except Terra, suicide 2/3rds of his RAF prior to the final battle, then hope he wins on Terra and expand from there.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I wonder what Stone's plan was after he defeated the Wolves, what he was thinking would happen if his war was one-sided and successful.

[Minemech]

 If Stone successfully crushed the Wolves without the Falcons, it would be a matter of assembling enough bondsmen and salvage to challenge the Falcons next. If he successfully crushed those Clans individually, he might have attracted the support of the Bears, and possibly even relief from his anti-spinward neighbors. The latter having more to do with stabilizing their own situation, and popular support within their states for a Clan Slayer hero. If he played his cards right, he could even make something out of that political capital.

[Minemech]

That said, the Capellans are going to gun for Terra, regardless of the situation. The Combine situation is more complex, and he could have potentially played the Combine and Confederation against one another.

[Church14]

I wonder what Stone's plan was after he defeated the Wolves, what he was thinking would happen if his war was one-sided and successful.

It gets covered in a book. Maybe Rock or the Republic? Stone was worried about Falcons, Wolves, and Capellans. Capellans are rational actors and stone thinks he can pull some sort of BS with them if he lacks the strength to beat them. The clans aren’t willing to negotiate.

So he chose wolves first. First, because if he did fail, Wolves wouldn’t massacre civilians and would defend Terra from the falcons. Second, it was the strategic equivalent of beating the big guy up in a prison movie. Smashing the wolves would be a message that he was back and the Republic was revitalized and ready.

If it had worked and wolves failed, then stone would burn more of the fortress fuel to rebuild, reload, and repeat that with the falcons.


All things considered, the plan wasn’t terrible. Alaric did two things no typical, rational leader (clan leader anyway) would do. Things it wasn’t feasible for Stone to predict. If wolves had sent half their touman (already an insane strategic risk) or come alone, Stone would have stomped them and prepped for the falcons. Alaric pulled a gamble that nobody else besides Malvina would

[Minemech]

 I am going to posit that Clan Wolf sending nearly their entire Touman was the only rational read of what their response would be. It was a matter of Crusader Clan eschatology. The Crusader ideology was not obsolete, but had been built on over time. The Clans HAD to win Terra. The invitation of the Falcons by the Wolves was also highly plausible. Destroying either Clan alone would be tantamount to bringing back the old image of Stone to the Inner Sphere. Defeating both would be a greater feat still.

[Generalripphook]

If Stone HAD won, all those Millitias would have had a LOT of experience and I don't think it would be a far reach for them to transition to line units.

[Church14]

I am going to posit that Clan Wolf sending nearly their entire Touman was the only rational read of what their response would be. It was a matter of Crusader Clan eschatology. The Crusader ideology was not obsolete, but had been built on over time. The Clans HAD to win Terra. The invitation of the Falcons by the Wolves was also highly plausible. Destroying either Clan alone would be tantamount to bringing back the old image of Stone to the Inner Sphere. Defeating both would be a greater feat still.

Even if Alaric bringing the entire touman was the rational read (which I don’t think I buy), Alaric inviting Malvina and the falcons was not. And Malvina working cordially - by her standards - with Alaric was so far out of character for her that it don’t see it as a reasonable thing to predict.

But yeah, “Stone’s back and he led the ailing Republic to destroy the Wolves” would have made Stone legend in the sphere in a way pretty much nobody else could hope to be.

[Colt Ward]

Even if Alaric bringing the entire touman was the rational read (which I don’t think I buy), Alaric inviting Malvina and the falcons was not. And Malvina working cordially - by her standards - with Alaric was so far out of character for her that it don’t see it as a reasonable thing to predict.

She did on Tharkad . . . and if it was any other world than Terra, I could have seen her sending a message announcing she would not show up as payback for making her pull off that world.

[Church14]

She did on Tharkad . . . and if it was any other world than Terra, I could have seen her sending a message announcing she would not show up as payback for making her pull off that world.

Hm. Fair point

[eaglenine2]

High Command kept line regiments as their organizational strength then? While the new units and Militia can be as large as equipment and staffing can fit.

[Minemech]

Even if Alaric bringing the entire touman was the rational read (which I don’t think I buy), Alaric inviting Malvina and the falcons was not. And Malvina working cordially - by her standards - with Alaric was so far out of character for her that it don’t see it as a reasonable thing to predict.

You have to think of in Clan character in the context of the Battle of Luthien. Then contextualize this understanding with the comparatively cosmic significance of Terra to Crusader Clan identity.