BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: GermanSumo on 02 February 2019, 12:08:47
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hi everybody.
we had an interesting discussion in our campaign group about the extinct thunderhawk during the early years of the invasion. we all agree its production was resumed by norse storm in the mid 50s. but were they really extinct in the early years of the clan invasion? sure... they were by no means AVAILABLE to anybody. but did the com guards had any of them? if so... you technically cannot call them extinct, right? reading the (maybe inaccurate and too short) description on sarna tells us, that it was just produced during the amaris war basically. and production ceased shortly afterwards. no mention of any of them leaving with big daddy K when he took almost what was left of the sldf. no mention of any of them surviving and being stockpiled for the guards. so... what do you guys here think about this question? was it stockpiled and handed out to the guards at some point? was it technically extinct? did big daddy K take examples with him?
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Should you successfully infiltrate the underground storehouse in a base located somewhere that used to be called “Kansas” and then escape terra successfully with one in tow, you’re welcome to it :D
I would read extinct as “you can’t have one unless you create one by fiat for your game.” If some precentor leading a level iv is rolling around in one, I would think the only way you’d see it is if you raided someplace you probably were not going to leave, dead or alive.
But that’s the magic of doing your own game. If you want your players to find one in a vault out in the near periphery, more power to you.
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Should you successfully infiltrate the underground storehouse in a base located somewhere that used to be called “Kansas” and then escape terra successfully with one in tow, you’re welcome to it :D
I would read extinct as “you can’t have one unless you create one by fiat for your game.” If some precentor leading a level iv is rolling around in one, I would think the only way you’d see it is if you raided someplace you probably were not going to leave, dead or alive.
But that’s the magic of doing your own game. If you want your players to find one in a vault out in the near periphery, more power to you.
nnah... it was more of an academical question. :D nothing really for our campaign. we dont need to discuss it because its handled by mekhq. :D so the question would be if there are examples left in the com guards. yes, we ARE aware of the difficulty of obtaining one. but we were not really considering that question. only if there ARE really some left in a significant quantity.
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Well, the MUL has them available to ComStar through the centuries. Basically, IMO, ComStar can justifiably have anything that the Star League produced, just not necessarily many of them. The same with the Clans really. Though most of the Clans probably wouldn't be using them.
So yeah. The Clans and ComStar could've easily had access to them.
I'd also point out that extinct doesn't necessarily mean completely gone, just "not really enough to be worth mentioning." IIRC
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Well, the MUL has them available to ComStar through the centuries. Basically, IMO, ComStar can justifiably have anything that the Star League produced, just not necessarily many of them. The same with the Clans really. Though most of the Clans probably wouldn't be using them.
So yeah. The Clans and ComStar could've easily had access to them.
I'd also point out that extinct doesn't necessarily mean completely gone, just "not really enough to be worth mentioning." IIRC
nice. this basically settles it. thank you.
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i feel like we've gotten conflicting answers on what "extinct" really means for MUL purposes over the years. If there are any, that number would probably be much closer to zero than one hundred
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i feel like we've gotten conflicting answers on what "extinct" really means for MUL purposes over the years. If there are any, that number would probably be much closer to zero than one hundred
It's fun that a rarity of Unique is potentially outnumbered by Extinct.
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i feel like we've gotten conflicting answers on what "extinct" really means for MUL purposes over the years. If there are any, that number would probably be much closer to zero than one hundred
i always read extinct like: not in production, not more than 1 or 2 examples in the whole IS, only found as museum pieces which probably not work.
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i feel like we've gotten conflicting answers on what "extinct" really means for MUL purposes over the years. If there are any, that number would probably be much closer to zero than one hundred
Extinct for the MUL as always been there are no known examples deployed in a military force.
I think the confusion has come from other definitions, provided by non-MUL, of what extinct means. The MUL has always talked about military deployment. Not production or museums and only listing prototypes when they are only ever prototypes.
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Extinct for the MUL as always been there are no known examples deployed in a military force.
I think the confusion has come from other definitions, provided by non-MUL, of what extinct means. The MUL has always talked about military deployment. Not production or museums and only listing prototypes when they are only ever prototypes.
sorry... im just a german. so do you say, it IS extinct or it is NOT extinct before 3055?
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Personally I feel we need a intermediary availability, maybe an Out of Production, to represent they still exist, but are becoming rarer and rarer.
It just seems to me otherwise you end up with headscratchers like the following:
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/669/commando-com-1d
Produced ever since 2480, this mech is all over the place, right up until Clan Invasion (so available up to and through 3061).
But Come January 1st, 3062, it's like the great CIVIL WAR RAPTURE as all throughout the innersphere, Commandos, Locust 1Ms, and a great many other units evaporate into the aether!
Woe to any Merc Company that had these cheap units as their backbones as they were just starting out!
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sorry... im just a german. so do you say, it IS extinct or it is NOT extinct before 3055?
I didn't say anything about 3055 at all.
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Personally I feel we need a intermediary availability, maybe an Out of Production, to represent they still exist, but are becoming rarer and rarer.
It just seems to me otherwise you end up with headscratchers like the following:
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/669/commando-com-1d
Produced ever since 2480, this mech is all over the place, right up until Clan Invasion (so available up to and through 3061).
But Come January 1st, 3062, it's like the great CIVIL WAR RAPTURE as all throughout the innersphere, Commandos, Locust 1Ms, and a great many other units evaporate into the aether!
Woe to any Merc Company that had these cheap units as their backbones as they were just starting out!
Why? The MUL doesn't do repossession. We inform, you do what you want with that information. You choose to have COMD-1Ds, you can choose to keep them. We're just there so you understand that's an usual exception you've made, enjoy your game.
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That’s a granulization issue with the periodization - it wasn’t extinct before 3049 but it was by 3062. Unlike intro dates, say, a unit that appears in 3059, we lack the exit date. But they’re both only available for part of the era even though we only treat it as an on/off switch on the MUL
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sorry... im just a german. so do you say, it IS extinct or it is NOT extinct before 3055?
Comstar always has access to it so no, it's not extinct. Though everyone thinks it's extinct because Comstar never deploys it.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3222/thunder-hawk-tdk-7x (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3222/thunder-hawk-tdk-7x)
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I didn't say anything about 3055 at all.
well... i didnt understand fully what you meant and had the impression you answered to my question. i still dont understand what you said. would you please clarify. or use simpler words?
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well... i didnt understand fully what you meant and had the impression you answered to my question. i still dont understand what you said. would you please clarify. or use simpler words?
I wasn’t responding to your question.
But as for the Thunderhawk, both the clans and Comstar have them from SL times. So no, it’s not extinct.
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http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3222/thunder-hawk-tdk-7x
I suppose if we had all gone to the mul first
Note that clan availability has not been added for pre invasion eras
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I wasn’t responding to your question.
But as for the Thunderhawk, both the clans and Comstar have them from SL times. So no, it’s not extinct.
NOW i understood fully. thank you, nckestrel.
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TRO3058 states that Kerensky took all the Thunderhawks with him to the Exodus. So it is unlikely that one was left behind with Hayes for Comstar. If so, then by mistake and then i don't see more than one with Comstar.
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Technically what the original 3058 says is "General Aleksandr Kerensky is believed to have taken all the remaining Thunder Hawks with him on the Exodus."
"is believed" leaves much wriggle room.
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The original TR:3058 is posed as an internal ComStar document (the Clan chapter starts with them claiming current, illicit access to nearly all Inner Sphere military databases), so that doesn't leave much wiggle room where the ComGuard is concerned. Edit: The Upgraded 3058 agrees that Kerensky took all surviving Thunder Hawks with him.
Anyone know why the MUL changed that?
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Probably didn’t catch that specific reference when adding general “royal” mechs to Comstar.
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Well, the MUL has them available to ComStar through the centuries. Basically, IMO, ComStar can justifiably have anything that the Star League produced, just not necessarily many of them. The same with the Clans really. Though most of the Clans probably wouldn't be using them.
So yeah. The Clans and ComStar could've easily had access to them.
I'd also point out that extinct doesn't necessarily mean completely gone, just "not really enough to be worth mentioning." IIRC
Comstar could have found some sitting around, but how likely would one of the best assault mechs available at the time would have been left behind? Those would likely be the first to be loaded up, each one of them accounted for, before anything else was on those dropships. I'd say that there is less then a 1% chance that there were any left behind. Id bet that there would be a pile of SL lights sitting around for every thunderhawk loaded up.
The clans would likely make use of them as second line mechs. Of course this ignores that FASA was shoveling "old" mechs into the then current time line. Anything could be suggested considering what was left behind by the SL. Also, the clans and Comstar could have produced any number of thunderhawks and mothballed them. It changes how the story would have gone, instead of an Orion and an Atlas kicking in the door it would have been an Orion and a Thunderhawk at the very least.
What it really boils down to is that nobody outside of comstar and the clans would have had the information and facilities to produce a thunderhawk. Any existing mechs were either destroyed, taken with the traitor, or lost to time and sitting in a forgotten facility on a forgotten world of the I.S. making the mech effectively extinct to the I.S.
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Maybe the Comstar ones were heavily damaged 'Mechs that they have restored?
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Several regiements/divisions joined Blake and Comstar at the beginning?
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Comstar's Thunderhawks being salvage would satisfy TRO3058's statements that Kerensky took all "surviving" Thunderhawks with him. Comstar's didn't survive. They were resurrected. Comstar would have abilities to do it.
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'Royal Command' wasn't a thing when 3058 came out. But looking at the 3* gauss and XL engine, does anyone else think that the Thunderhawk should be retconed as a royal mech?
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FunFact the RATs in both Liberation of Terra modules are missing the ThunderHawk at all. As other mechs of that TRO are found in the RAT that might be intentional.
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Nice thing about any Extinct unit is once the tech is available you can use the Solaris VII machine shops and scratch build a facsimile of it and sucker someone that it is just discovered lost tech . Only those have the real ones would be able to see through the scam . If they provide a real one as proof then it is no longer extinct . Yes scatch building mechs is crazy expensive . A 100 ton mech with 3 Gauss Rifles and 4 med lasers and 10 heat sinks by about 3050 should not be impossible to fabricate to cosmetically look like a 300 + year old model . So long as the sucker pays more than the fabrication costs you are golden . Yes your version is going to have different quirks but no one alive knows this . Because the Thunder Hawk has its own unique chassis which means Any scratch built chassis of closely the same dimensions will do . The down side unique mechs costs more than 5 X the price of a production model . So unless you are willing to sink 125 + million C bills into the project it is not worth starting. . There is absolutely no reason any mech using mature tech cant be replicated . Great A Time of War Scenario . As for putting on the screws on the guy in charge of the Com Star mech depot he plays ball or it gets leaked the Thunder Hawk originally came from this so called impregnable facility . How much would the guy in charge pay to keep it hushed up . After all you only prove a negative if you own up having the facility in the first place . The fake only becomes fake once someone starts providing a production model real one . Otherwise is it really fake anymore than say the Great Turtle or any other unique Solaris VII unit . The existance of the Great Turtle proves after the Helm core is disseminated : engineers can design their own . As for the Clan ' s why would they bother involve themselves .
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Its only fake if you try to pass it off as being 300 years old. It like a classic car built from a modern kit. Its still a classic car. It's just not 40+ years old.
You could also recoup your expenses by selling copies of the plans.
edit
hate typing on a phone
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After 90 years any mech does not have a single original part . once a mech starts continuously fighting it loses , limbs , gyros , heads ect , ect . All the mech requires are couple of parts that are 150 + years old to sell it . If you fight in battletech alot. Everthing is ablative . Only out of a factory are all the parts the same age that changes every battle
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I wish MUL had slight more detail scaling for availablity of items per decade.
Common
Uncommon
Regionally [Faction names/areas]
Outproduction
Rare
Unique
Extinct
Or give a number 1-10 in availability. Thunderhawk should have been like 0-5, chances it could be found in 3058, 0 in 3044.
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I wish MUL had slight more detail scaling for availablity of items per decade.
Common
Uncommon
Regionally [Faction names/areas]
Outproduction
Rare
Unique
Extinct
Or give a number 1-10 in availability. Thunderhawk should have been like 0-5, chances it could be found in 3058, 0 in 3044.
Keith/Xotl has been working on that for decades. He's awesome. He's also a bit crazy (dedication wise). And yet he's hit a brick wall, BattleTech's "everything for everyone" just piles on itself till it becomes too unwieldy for even crazy dedicated people.