Tell me about the Light AC-2

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, an LAC 20 is difficult.
The light ACs are always the range of the next larger regular version, and there isn't an AC >20.
A 10 would be great, though. Including the RAC version.
Still, we already know they get better with size. The LAC/2 is at the bottom no matter how you look at it.
It takes effort to be, on average, worse than an AC 5.

[mbear]

OK. Silly question time. Would a Light AC2 be useful on an aerospace fighter that was facing another fighter equipped with reflective armor (like the Simurgh Omnifighter)? The LAC/2 has a range advantage over SRMs, and wouldn't have its damage reduced by the armor. Maybe it would benefit by using precision ammo? (I don't know how precision ammo works in an aerospace context.)

(Yes, I'm really grasping at straws here to try to find a use for this weapon.)

[Scotty]

Aerospace units can't use alternate ammo types.

[Arkansas Warrior]

OK. Silly question time. Would a Light AC2 be useful on an aerospace fighter that was facing another fighter equipped with reflective armor (like the Simurgh Omnifighter)? The LAC/2 has a range advantage over SRMs, and wouldn't have its damage reduced by the armor. Maybe it would benefit by using precision ammo? (I don't know how precision ammo works in an aerospace context.)

(Yes, I'm really grasping at straws here to try to find a use for this weapon.)

An LRM-5 is better in just about every way for aerospace use.

[UnLimiTeD]

Both aren't particularly useful, however.
Seems to me that these days, nearly every ASF has 41+ armour on every facing, maybe excluding the aft on some lighter designs.
When it comes to the raw chance to hit at all against an ASF, from the ground, I think the LAC/2 might have a place as a Flak if the carrier just stands close to it's charges. Yes, an LBX would on average be better, but you get only one chance to hit. Of course, you're worse against everything else in return.

[Scotty]

Both aren't particularly useful, however.
Seems to me that these days, nearly every ASF has 41+ armour on every facing, maybe excluding the aft on some lighter designs.
When it comes to the raw chance to hit at all against an ASF, from the ground, I think the LAC/2 might have a place as a Flak if the carrier just stands close to it's charges. Yes, an LBX would on average be better, but you get only one chance to hit. Of course, you're worse against everything else in return.

An LB-2X is two tons more for an even better flak modifier and 50% more range.  Honestly, if you can't find the tonnage for an LB-2X, AA duty probably isn't for you.

[packhntr]

I'm in a campaign right now that has a couple of VTOLs with AC2's in them.....they're effective at harassment, but if they had LAC2s.....the would have been dead a long time ago.  The range is the only thing that keeps them alive.  LAC2s are just very heavy longer ranged machine guns. 

[The Eagle]

That makes me sad for the Poignard...though if memory serves there's an ERLL variant too.

[Caedis Animus]

An LB-2X is two tons more for an even better flak modifier and 50% more range.  Honestly, if you can't find the tonnage for an LB-2X, AA duty probably isn't for you.

Speaking of LB2Xs, I was checking around with the Gun to see if you could have a cheap-as-hell AA config for the Gun.

It works, but it's very mediocre. The ride lacks the pod space to mount an LB5X.

[Scotty]

It lacks the critical space to mount an LB-5X.  It's got plenty of pod space for one.  Important difference. :)

[Caedis Animus]

It lacks the critical space to mount an LB-5X.  It's got plenty of pod space for one.  Important difference. :)

I never understood the difference in terminology, as 'pod space' implies volume. That's why I always say 'pod space' when referring to critical slots on omnimechs.

[Scotty]

"Pod space" is universally used to refer to available tonnage for an Omni's base chassis in TROs.  The Timber Wolf has "37.5 tons of pod space available", for example.

[Caedis Animus]

I'm trying to find the nicest, least snarky way to say "Seriously, stop trying to help. I know what it's supposed to mean, and I knew pod space normally meant tonnage well before your attempts to correct me, so please cut it out and let's go back on topic."

I am not having much luck.

[mbear]

So about the Light AC/2...

The only place I can see it being used is with infantry as field guns on worlds that can't produce or import Rotary AC/2s. Although maybe, just maybe it would be a decent replacement for units mounting Rifles of various kinds (Arbiter, I'm looking at you).

[Colt Ward]

I can see two niches IMO- like I said before . . .

First, light or barely medium mechs like the 3025 Clint where you want to keep some ranged harassment, free up some tonnage to overall improve the design (armor on Clint) and you are wanting to say low heat so you do not add HS- use those free 10!  I also think it does not matter as much when we start talking about DHS being put on a machine- after all the IS ERLL is much more attractive for harassing if you turn those 10 free engine heat sinks into DHS.  This is why the Clint was my 3025 LAC retcon recommendation- and yes, I know the LAC/5 makes more sense for the model I mentioned but the 2 works pretty well in that slot.

Second, a vehicle hunter like I mentioned for the Scimitar . . . to go after vehicles its not the damage being thrown out, its the number of hits giving you chances at crits to make it a mission kill.  If that Hetzer gets ping'd by a fast hovertank before it can get in range with a result of either the AC/20 being knocked out or the vehicle immobilized, then it no longer matters.  So that 2 LAC/2 armed Scimitar is going to work better than a single AC/5- gives up 1 pt of damage for twice the opportunity for crits against vehicles.  Yes the LB-5X would be even better, but then its a judgement on availability.

As for AA . . . forget a LB- 2X or -5X on a GUN . . . the AFFS already has a suitable AA platform in the Garm.

[Atarlost]

I can see two niches IMO- like I said before . . .

First, light or barely medium mechs like the 3025 Clint where you want to keep some ranged harassment, free up some tonnage to overall improve the design (armor on Clint) and you are wanting to say low heat so you do not add HS- use those free 10!  I also think it does not matter as much when we start talking about DHS being put on a machine- after all the IS ERLL is much more attractive for harassing if you turn those 10 free engine heat sinks into DHS.  This is why the Clint was my 3025 LAC retcon recommendation- and yes, I know the LAC/5 makes more sense for the model I mentioned but the 2 works pretty well in that slot.

There's no advantage to not adding heatsinks, indeed there's a disadvantage: If you only have 10 SHS you cannot walk off the field after two engine crits.  If you have 11 you can.  If you have 12 you can run.  If you can produce enough heat to excuse enough heatsinks to start using crits you get crit padding.  Heatsinks, unlike ammo using weapons, only have good side effects.  Without advanced ammo you're better off losing the autocannon and its ammo bin entirely. 

Second, a vehicle hunter like I mentioned for the Scimitar . . . to go after vehicles its not the damage being thrown out, its the number of hits giving you chances at crits to make it a mission kill.  If that Hetzer gets ping'd by a fast hovertank before it can get in range with a result of either the AC/20 being knocked out or the vehicle immobilized, then it no longer matters.  So that 2 LAC/2 armed Scimitar is going to work better than a single AC/5- gives up 1 pt of damage for twice the opportunity for crits against vehicles.  Yes the LB-5X would be even better, but then its a judgement on availability.

The LACs are new.  The kerfluffle about the LFE proves that patent law exists in Battletech in this era.  LB-5X ACs have prior art in the Clan version and cannot be patented.  Until its patent protection expires the lower tech base of the LAC can't really come into play.  This is reflected in their availability ratings: XXED for the LB-5X and XXFC for the LACs.  The LB-10X is even more common at EFDC if you can swing it (on the Scimitar it requires removing the SRMs, but since it has no minimum range and does so much more damage that's hardly a sacrifice).  Even after the LAC patents have expired it's as easy to get LB-10X ACs as LAC-2s. 

Then there's the problem of ammo.  The thing that makes standard and light autocannons good on the modern battlefield is precision ammo, which is tech E same as the LBX autocannons and ammo.  If you can't make LBX ACs and ammo locally you also can't make precision ammo locally and if you can't make precision ammo locally you should be using the *canonical* version with the LRM-15.  You get slightly more hit locations (same median, but you're more likely to roll over 8 to get 3 than under 4 to get 1), more damage (even at a minimum cluster roll you get 5), and more advantageous range bands. 

[Colt Ward]

Love that you are ignoring the specific example- especially where I listed you could give it 1 or 2 more SHS (which maybe swallowed by the engine, I do not have HMP available right now), increase the armor and maybe give it another ML . . . to go with the 2 or 3 it already has . . . which means if it runs instead of jumping it has some flexibility.  You also see a LOT of the lights and low end mediums that only have the 10 engine heat sinks.  Before it was LRM5s FTW, now its Flashbulbs rule?  Either way gets boring and while I provided an answer to your earlier question, if you were looking for a Optimized reason you should have clearly said so before.

Scimitar is AC/5 & 2 SRM2s . . . what you are talking about is the Saracen.  The Saracen will also only have 8 shots per ton of ammo while the Scimitar will have 22.5 as described . . . I also specifically said a vehicle hunter with an example of going after something that struggles to get the +2 move mod.  Relying on a special ammo to make anything 'good' is a crutch.  A modified old 3025 Scimitar as a vehicle hunter gets more use out of a common chassis without resorting to rare/hard to get ammo . . . and Scorpions, Hetzers, LRM/SRM/MRM Carriers and some of the other 4/6 vehicles are going to be the most common designs you can find yourself facing, even if they do not get a lot of time on the table.  And your LRM is STILL one chance to hit . . . while I get 2 and no minimums for short range- which at 6 hexes or less gets me a 7 or 8 rather than trying to peg 7 hexes and only 7 to get the same LRMs SINGLE chance to hit.

Patents?  While that did come up with the LFE, its a joke considering the REST of BTU where the response is to send mechs with a cease & desist notice rather than lawyers.

[Scotty]

Love that you are ignoring the specific example- especially where I listed you could give it 1 or 2 more SHS (which maybe swallowed by the engine, I do not have HMP available right now)

This so colossally defeats the point of freeing up spare tonnage from a lighter weapon that I think it's an excellent point against LACs.

[Colt Ward]

It was one of the examples out of like 3 or 4 I provided about what could be done with that extra 4t from AC/5 to LAC/2 . . . my personal was to give it more armor to bring it up from 54%- 3t armor and a ML, which lets it run, fire everything and only overheat by 2 while the armor is at 87%.  If you look at the next sentence I point out a lot of those lighter designs do not go above the base 10 HS.  I also said that sort of reasoning does not work with DHS.

[Atarlost]

Love that you are ignoring the specific example- especially where I listed you could give it 1 or 2 more SHS (which maybe swallowed by the engine, I do not have HMP available right now), increase the armor and maybe give it another ML . . . to go with the 2 or 3 it already has . . . which means if it runs instead of jumping it has some flexibility.  You also see a LOT of the lights and low end mediums that only have the 10 engine heat sinks.  Before it was LRM5s FTW, now its Flashbulbs rule?  Either way gets boring and while I provided an answer to your earlier question, if you were looking for a Optimized reason you should have clearly said so before.

You can do more than twice as much with the other 5 tons you're wasting on a gun that's less than half the use of an AC-5 for more than half the weight.  If you get rid of it completely you can fit a PPC and two heatsinks and only build heat jumping if you respect the firing brackets, or 4t of armor and still fit a large laser, or install a LRM-10 or a LRM-5, 4t of armor, and another medium laser.  All of these are better than a similar build that keeps the LAC-2. 

Scimitar is AC/5 & 2 SRM2s . . . what you are talking about is the Saracen. 

Know your variants.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Scimitar#Variants
It's a thing.
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2830/scimitar-medium-hover-tank-missile
It's not merely the product of wiki vandalism. 

Patents?  While that did come up with the LFE, its a joke considering the REST of BTU where the response is to send mechs with a cease & desist notice rather than lawyers.

Except in the era of sphere-wide peace and brotherhood and saving the mechs for fighting the Clans that is the Second Star League and the era of worrying about the Blakist common enemy.  Which are the eras in which the light autocannons exist and are rare.  The fact of the matter is that light autocannons have worse availability than more advanced autocannons until the dark ages.  No one is taking advantage of their simple construction to produce them all over the place for local use.  If they were they'd have a higher availability rating.  Either people are refusing to produce an easy to produce weapon system (including the LAC-5 which everyone agrees is actually good) for no reason whatsoever even when people are reviving Age of War junkers, or patents matter. 

[MightyBolamite]

So this has been bouncing around in my head for a couple of days. Would a LAC2 be worth it on a fast light using stealth? Now, I realize that a normal AC2 would be better, but still. Low heat with high range, I'm thinking with the special ammo it might be a reasonable harasser.

[Scotty]

So this has been bouncing around in my head for a couple of days. Would a LAC2 be worth it on a fast light using stealth? Now, I realize that a normal AC2 would be better, but still. Low heat with high range, I'm thinking with the special ammo it might be a reasonable harasser.

No.  You're better off with a Light PPC if you want damage at decent range, and you still won't even come close to capping out a bunch of DHSs.

[Caedis Animus]

No.  You're better off with a Light PPC if you want damage at decent range, and you still won't even come close to capping out a bunch of DHSs.

Hell, if you needed/wanted Anti-Infantry utility, swapping the LAC-2 for an LPPC in this case would even buy you two IS Machine Guns+whatever ammo you need. Assuming one of the 'specialty ammo' types Bolamite was talking about was fletchette.