Author Topic: Armored Fighting Vehicles version M4 - are we going with that? Sure, man.  (Read 198748 times)

ANS Kamas P81

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Um...

Sounds worse to me. :D
And you'd think after the M551's gun issues, that'd be real embarrassing to run into AGAIN.  Then again that wasn't a problem limited to the Americans, but at least the Soviets didn't run into it until they put battleship-sized sixteen-inch rifles on a tracked chassis.  Kind of expected at that point.
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marauder648

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Wasn't the Sherridan given the gun that it got because they couldn't get it to work on the M-60 'Starship' variant they made to carry the 155 gun/missile launcher?
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RunandFindOut

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Nah, it was given that gun because they'd intended that gun/launcher to go in all the next generation of tanks and the light airborne tank was unimportant enough not to blow the budget re-arming it.  And on top of that for all it's major problems with the recoil causing suspension damage it was a spectacularly effective gun.  The APERS round was enormous and could utterly flay an area large enough to cover entire platoon fronts with a single shot.  The HE round could put a hole in the side of a concrete apartment building large enough for two infantrymen to walk abreast through or to rip the glass off an entire side of an office building with the shock.
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marauder648

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Oh indeed the 155 was a monster of a gun and I know it was gonna go on another over-sexed and over-engineered disaster the MBT-70, but they got the gun but not the tank which lead to the M-60 Starships and then it popping up on the Sherridan.   
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RunandFindOut

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Originally the intent had been a two tier force structure with MBT70 and Light Tank (which would later become the Sheridan) both armed with the gun.  When the MBT70 fell through for reasons you nailed, they rapidly put out the M60A2 using a turret design that had been discarded to keep a MBT with that gun in service because they wanted the capabilities it was supposed to bring.  The Sheridan was always a sideshow and less important, something for the Airborne units.  So the MBT70 not materializing didn't really affect anything because it was already intended to use that gun.  The M60A2 was where the changes were because they wanted to keep using that 155 and just the Sheridan buy wouldn't have been enough to justify the production.  So they quickly shoehorned it into a new M60 variant that could be bought in numbers to justify production and not screw up their plans.  Unfortunately it turned out that their were serious issues with the gun-launched ATGM designed for it.  And it had problems with accuracy, recoil, and some other issues.  So the M60A2 went bye-bye, and they went back to 105mm.  But changing the Sheridan wasn't in the budget and so it just went forward.
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I am Belch II

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Was the gun/missile a failure, or did it have a little success on the Sheridan. From what Im reading it was a failure. A lot of money was put in to the Shillelagh missile, and nothing came out of it because the TOW out classed it by so much.
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marauder648

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The gun was powerful and the missile worked but they were not exactly great and were overtaken by developments.  I had a quick glance at wiki and the main problem of the missile seems to be a HUGE minimum range of 800 yards, on a missile that goes out to 2200 yards.  So nearly 50% of your range the things unguided. 

The big 'ol HEAT rounds for the 155 would be nasty, but it could only fire HEAT rounds, and these were being countered by new developments in armour at the time, and there was also issues with its propellant not being all consumed. Plus as a single fixed round its HA-UGE so you can't really carry many rounds in the tank.

The HEAT rounds only is a big problem.  After WW2 and the widespread introduction of HEAT effect weapons, tanks it seemed didn't need armour, because the more armour you put on a tank, it just gives the HEAT jet more to cut through and makes it more devastating.  Its why the French and Germans with the AMX-30 and Leo 1 had very very thin armour and relied more on angling and tactics/technology to not be hit, or score the first hit before the enemy (IE elements of the 1st Guards Army storming towards you) could hit back, then fall back fast to the next firing position.

But composite armour greatly reduced the effectiveness of HEAT rounds and folks had to go back to very high velocity kenetic rounds to penetrate again.
The 551's gun system was based on the MBT-70's but the barrel was shorter, meaning it couldn't fire the APDS rounds they made for the MBT-70, and could only fire a fairly low velocity HEAT round. 

This meant that units equipped with the gun/missile system of the M-551 could be in the horrific position of not being able to hurt a hostile tank because of its ceramic and composite armour whilst it can very much hurt them. 
« Last Edit: 26 August 2018, 16:03:07 by marauder648 »
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RunandFindOut

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The Shillelagh missile was a failure, full stop.  Aside from the huge minimum range, the electronics had serious problems handling the recoil of being launched and in practice they had a very high failure rate.  So the range was short, it couldn't be guided for nearly half it's range, had a large failure rate on its guidance system.  The missile was built on 60s technology and what they had just wasn't ready.  That's why they needed the 155mm tube, that was as small as they could get the diameter of the missile down to.

The HEAT round was nasty but new armor developments were overtaking them.  They also had a HEP and HE-FRAG round that I don't know ever went into production, intended for the infantry support role.  But as noted those never went into production.  The gun itself had problems with the barrel being too short and the propellant not fast enough burning.  The rounds were so heavy and large it seriously cut into ammo storage.  Basically the 155mm gun/launcher was a case of a good but overambitious idea built too early before the technology could really support it.
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BairdEC

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The main gun on a Sheridan is 152mm, not 155mm.  HEAT was not the only ammunition type available for the gun; it could also fire HE, canister, flechette, and, I believe, HEP/HESH.  I don't recall there being a sabot round listed in the manual.

glitterboy2098

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iirc, using direct fire munitions from the cannon had a tendency to damage the missile firing related computer hardware, which made the lackluster performance of the missile that much worse from a operational perspective.

i often wondered why they didn't just redesign the tank to mount a 105mm or something instead, after the missile proved insufficient.

marauder648

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iirc, using direct fire munitions from the cannon had a tendency to damage the missile firing related computer hardware, which made the lackluster performance of the missile that much worse from a operational perspective.

i often wondered why they didn't just redesign the tank to mount a 105mm or something instead, after the missile proved insufficient.

Barrel length probably, the 105mm is a longer gun and the Sherridan is a small tank.  The 155's a fairly lightweight and low pressure gun (hence its low muzzle velocity) but the 105's a different beasty.  With the MBT-70's costs spiralling and them having issues with the 155 gun they did design a 'cheaper' and low tech version that replaced the 155 with the 105 off the M-60.
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I am Belch II

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Wow such a terrible missile, but it seems like they went all in on that missile. Almost 90k of them made, that's a huge number for a complete failure.
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lrose

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i often wondered why they didn't just redesign the tank to mount a 105mm or something instead, after the missile proved insufficient.

In 1967 they did refit a Sheridan with the XM103E7 105mm howitzer.  While it was successful it was apparently not chosen as it was felt the change would reduce the firepower of the Sheridan. 

Garrand

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IIRC there was also an experiment mounting the 76mm from the M41 on the Sheridan. But I'm assuming it was never adopted because it seemed like a step backwards in firepower...

Edit: looked for a reference in the Hunnicutt book, unable to find. But there is a photo in the Squadron/Signal Sheridan in Action #2028 p. 15.

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« Last Edit: 29 August 2018, 16:56:38 by Garrand »
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lrose

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Edit: looked for a reference in the Hunnicutt book, unable to find. But there is a photo in the Squadron/Signal Sheridan in Action #2028 p. 15.

Damon.

The 76mm was successful but was not put into production since it would have reduced the firepower (Hunnicutt p. 109 - picture on 110.)


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THAT is hilarious, just based on its existence...  :D

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Is this Australian for low-rider, mate?

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It reminds me of Girls Last Tour.
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Kidd

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Was that a Reliant Robin?
Looks like. Or aka to me, that blue car Mr Bean really hates...

M1919 Browning AND a Vickers MG? come now, its the apocalypse, lets have some ammo commonality here

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Note the outboard at the back. And does anyone recognise the longarm in the passenger seat?
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
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glitterboy2098

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Note the outboard at the back. And does anyone recognise the longarm in the passenger seat?
Might be a sterling smg? The L34A1/Mk.5 integrally suppressed variant i think
« Last Edit: 01 September 2018, 07:23:57 by glitterboy2098 »

marauder648

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Here have what I think is a Leopard I.

And just in case you forgot how absurdly huge the KV-2's turret was.



and the Soviets experimented by putting a 107mm naval gun in it too.

« Last Edit: 01 September 2018, 08:02:29 by marauder648 »
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Kidd

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Might be a sterling smg? The L34A1/Mk.5 integrally suppressed variant i think
Think so

Didn't even see the thing. Or the outboard.

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yep
didnt notice the tiny outboard, i have seen bigger weed eaters, thats barely a trollling motor by texas standards
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Note the outboard at the back. And does anyone recognise the longarm in the passenger seat?
Are you talking about the Sterling leaned back between the seats, or the water-cooled(?) belt fed on the mount?

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M1919 Browning AND a Vickers MG? come now, its the apocalypse, lets have some ammo commonality here

I believe that is actually a flex-mount M3 .50CAL machine gun. Note the spade grip at the back.

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