!sis Marik: wench of princes, political pawn, or tragic heroine?

[HikageMaru]

She'd have gotten over it just as easily if he'd said "Isis, I love you, but as Chancellor I must marry based off the needs of my realm, not the needs of my heart."  As it was, all he did was rub salt in the wound.

I dunno....  If STL was as evil as everybody says, then why not say that to her so that he could potentially use her in the future.

[MadCapellan]

Agreed. But I'm not sure why being a jerk is the only way to have a clean break. That seems rather limiting.

The goal is convincing the rejected party they are better off with someone else/were making a mistake by being with you.  Being a jerk is a simple, easy way to do so if you aren't too selfish to realize that being nice is for your own benefit, not theirs.

That's not saying there aren't other options, but it's easy and effective.

[MadCapellan]

I dunno....  If STL was as evil as everybody says, then why not say that to her so that he could potentially use her in the future.

BINGO.

[HikageMaru]

BINGO.

I learned from the best Capellan teachers.

[Liam's Ghost]

Personally, I think he was just being honest with her. Which is kind in its own way.

[Cerberus_02]

Think what you will, but I'll stand by my statement.  Creating a facade of compassion for someone you ultimately desire to end your relationship with only generates misunderstandings, lingering attachment & disappointment.  In general, this "compassion" is not something someone does for the benefit of the person being let go, but is a selfish desire to relieve the guilt of the rejecting party.  It's far better to cut things off clean.  It's far more thoughtful to the rejected party.

For most of us, self-preservation is a dominant instinct.  If someone attacks you or, for example, wishes you dead, for myself, I make an immediate break with that person emotionally, and in my experience, many do the same.  Anyone who doesn't is bound for serious suffering.  My condolences to those who can't.

Except, you know, STL wanted to marry Isis; Thomas kept putting their wedding off.  Your naïveté shows in your inability to see the frustration bred from an extended engagement.

Also STL didn't implicitly plan for her to get killed in the raid.

I dunno....  If STL was as evil as everybody says, then why not say that to her so that he could potentially use her in the future.

The goal is convincing the rejected party they are better off with someone else/were making a mistake by being with you.  Being a jerk is a simple, easy way to do so if you aren't too selfish to realize that being nice is for your own benefit, not theirs.

That's not saying there aren't other options, but it's easy and effective.

Sun-Tzu has always shown a capacity for webs-within-webs Xanatos Gambits.  With Isis, he cut off any potential future usefulness from her, which is decidedly un-Sun-Tzu-like.

[Black Mist]

Think what you will, but I'll stand by my statement.  Creating a facade of compassion for someone you ultimately desire to end your relationship with only generates misunderstandings, lingering attachment & disappointment.  In general, this "compassion" is not something someone does for the benefit of the person being let go, but is a selfish desire to relieve the guilt of the rejecting party.  It's far better to cut things off clean.  It's far more thoughtful to the rejected party.

This makes alot of sense. People do not realize that honesty is the best bet in a relationship, but is usually the hardest.

Also STL didn't implicitly plan for her to get killed in the raid.

yes he did, implicitly even.

Sun-Tzu has always shown a capacity for webs-within-webs Xanatos Gambits.  With Isis, he cut off any potential future usefulness from her, which is decidedly un-Sun-Tzu-like.

By cutting off the relationship the way he did. He made sure that she would present another image
of himself to VSD(who never understood Sun-Tzu as it was).

[Cerberus_02]

This makes alot of sense. People do not realize that honesty is the best bet in a relationship, but is usually the hardest.

Except they no longer have a relationship, by his ending it in this manner.

yes he did, implicitly even.

I don't have my copy of the book; can you cite page number, so this can be confirmed, for my peace of mind?

[Black Mist]

I don't have my copy of the book; can you cite page number, so this can be confirmed, for my peace of mind?

Killing Fields, Pg: 66:
"Sun-Tzu don't do this. I can still be of use to you and your realm."
    Sun-Tzu turned away and reached to open the latch on the door.
  " Your usefulness to my realm ended,"he said, low and cruel, "the
    day you made it off Hustaing alive."

Except they no longer have a relationship, by his ending it in this manner.

Okay if you insist, you should be honest in whatever you do anyway.

[Cerberus_02]

Killing Fields, Pg: 66:
"Sun-Tzu don't do this. I can still be of use to you and your realm."
    Sun-Tzu turned away and reached to open the latch on the door.
  " Your usefulness to my realm ended,"he said, low and cruel, "the
    day you made it off Hustaing alive."

Ah, so that confirms that he didn't plan on her dying, he was just stating the obvious; if she died, there'd have been a good chance of FWL involvement in STL's endeavour to punish St. Ives for it.

[MadCapellan]

Except, you know, STL wanted to marry Isis; Thomas kept putting their wedding off.  Your naïveté shows in your inability to see the frustration bred from an extended engagement.

I don't even know what the heck you're talking about any more.  You seem to be talking in circles.  Did or did not Sun-Tzu Liao want her dead, in your approximation?

The way I see it, Sun-Tzu Liao loved Isis, but it was more important to him to be the ultimate servant to the State - the Chancellor.  As Chancellor, there was more to gain by Isis death than by living, and he used her as bait in a trap, because it was the best political move.  Inside, he probably was upset to be losing her, but he told her point-blank he wanted her to die, because he knew it would make her move on.  Great guy, that Sun-Tzu Liao.

Ah, so that confirms that he didn't plan on her dying, he was just stating the obvious; if she died, there'd have been a good chance of FWL involvement in STL's endeavour to punish St. Ives for it.

Quite the opposite.  The whole operation was planned by Sun-Tzu down to the finest detail, and her death was expected.  The message being relayed in that sentence is "you screwed up my plan by living".

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Which indicates that he did not care about her at all except as a tool to be used and discarded.

[Cerberus_02]

The way I see it...

That's where you're getting screwed up.  :P   :D   ;)

Did or did not Sun-Tzu Liao want her dead, in your approximation?

He didn't want her dead, but as a typical House Noble schemer he would've found a use for her death.  If their wedding had been allowed to proceed, Sun-Tzu would've had, at worst, an ally in the FWL (or House Marik, at least, barring the Thomases).

[Dread Moores]

The goal is convincing the rejected party they are better off with someone else/were making a mistake by being with you.  Being a jerk is a simple, easy way to do so if you aren't too selfish to realize that being nice is for your own benefit, not theirs.

So being nice is selfish? That's the first time I've heard that. Maybe I'm using nice differently than you. I've never had much of an issue being polite, yet emotionally neutral and detached. Remain detached during one of those discussions I can absolutely understand. Still don't see why being a jerk would be necessary to avoid being selfish.  Being a jerk sounds like it would be easy...for only one person.  That's the way that reads as selfish to me. ;)

[Lazarus Jaguar]

Which indicates that he did not care about her at all except as a tool to be used and discarded.

isn't that how he looked at everything?

[MadCapellan]

Which indicates that he did not care about her at all except as a tool to be used and discarded.

Wrong.  Sun-Tzu the man loved her.  Sun-Tzu the Chancellor saw her, like everyone else, as a tool to be used and discarded.  Sun-Tzu the man put away his feelings for her because the State is more important to him.

He didn't want her dead, but as a typical House Noble schemer he would've found a use for her death.  If their wedding had been allowed to proceed, Sun-Tzu would've had, at worst, an ally in the FWL (or House Marik, at least, barring the Thomases).

You are the one who doesn't understand the events on Hexare, then.  By 3061, Sun-Tzu Liao had realised that Thomas Marik wasn't going to allow the marriage to happen.  PERIOD.  With no shot at a lasting alliance/union with the FWL, Sun-Tzu realized the only other thing he could get out of Isis was an excuse to obligate the FWLM to lend him their muscle one last time.  Isis failed to drop dead, thus preventing Sun-Tzu from declaring an outright attack on the Compact by a united FWLM-CCAF.  The audacity of the whole thing did buy him the means to draw SLDF peacekeepers into the mess until he could complete the job.

[Lore]

Personally, I think he was just being honest with her. Which is kind in its own way.

And par for the course when it comes to Sun-Tzu and his courting of relationships.

I'm really not sure why there's such surprise over the way he handled his potential union with Isis. It didn't really tell us anything about Sun-Tzu the man, that we hadn't already learnt from his interactions with others -- particularly family -- elsewhere.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

isn't that how he looked at everything?

Yes, see the link in my sig.

[Cerberus_02]

You are the one who doesn't understand the events on Hexare, then.

Oh no, I understood his strategy completely; what doesn't make sense is your belief that he wanted her dead.  Was there a chance of her death during the raid?  Yes, but I sincerely doubt he chose House Hiritsu as his bodyguard for that trip because he thought they were that inept.

[MadCapellan]

Oh no, I understood his strategy completely; what doesn't make sense is your belief that he wanted her dead.  Was there a chance of her death during the raid?  Yes, but I sincerely doubt he chose House Hiritsu as his bodyguard for that trip because he thought they were that inept.

There's a good little story on Battlecorps about that where Isis gets separated from House Hiritsu and spends a significant period of time wandering aimlessly through an urban warzone, and is almost captured by the Blackwind Lancers on multiple occasions.  House Hiritsu was assigned because the occasion required a credible bodyguard force not to arise suspicion - the Chancellor himself was supposed to be present as well.  Orders were being manipuated from above House command to partially botch the operation for House Hiritsu.  It's a good read, if you are interested.

[Cerberus_02]

House Hiritsu was assigned because the occasion required a credible bodyguard force not to arise suspicion

I am not aware of any Warrior house that wouldn't make a credible bodyguard force.

the Chancellor himself was supposed to be present as well.

Yes, we all know that.

Orders were being manipuated from above House command to partially botch the operation for House Hiritsu.

Not sold on that.

Battlecorps

Canon?

[MadCapellan]

Canon?

Everything on Battlecorps is.

[Cerberus_02]

Everything on Battlecorps is.

canon-wise, the print edition trumps the PDF edition

Hmmm.

[MadCapellan]

Hmmm.

1 - You're getting information on canon from sarna.net.  They aren't an official source for anything

2 - We're talking about a story with no print edition.  That comment refers specifically to print novels which have been released on battlecorps as .pdfs, because the .pdfs were generated from pre-final draft versions of said novels.  It has no bearing on the canonicity of .pdf only products, or print vs. pdf sourcebooks, for that matter.

[Black Mist]

Hmmm.

or you could just admit that no matter what we say you are not going to believe us :)
(blasted Free Capellan propaganda)

[Cerberus_02]

or you could just admit that no matter what we say you are not going to believe us :)
(blasted Free Capellan propaganda)

If it comes from a Liao, of course it's questionable!   :P

[Lore]

I am not aware of any Warrior house that wouldn't make a credible bodyguard force.

It's likely meant in the context that the assigning of a Warrior House for bodyguard duties ensures credibility. Not that a particular Warrior House may not be a credible force in its own right.

[Cerberus_02]

It's likely meant in the context that the assigning of a Warrior House for bodyguard duties ensures credibility.

Which is what I meant.

[Cavalier]

Frankly I think the breakup works better if it's one of the rare times Sun Tzu is venting his human side. In a display of cruel, wounding behavior to make up for the years of frustration and humiliation dealt to him by Thomas Marik. He quite obviously wanted to crush Isis with the dark revelation of his sociopathic lack of attachment to her. Now Sun Tzu is not a sociopath, but he is effectively forced to play one 24/7 by his own conception of the needs of the Capellan state and Isis could not understand that. Making it clear to her in the most hurtful personal way possible was an expression of his human pettiness, not his withered sense of compassion.

[E. Icaza]

Frankly I think the breakup works better if it's one of the rare times Sun Tzu is venting his human side. In a display of cruel, wounding behavior to make up for the years of frustration and humiliation dealt to him by Thomas Marik. He quite obviously wanted to crush Isis with the dark revelation of his sociopathic lack of attachment to her. Now Sun Tzu is not a sociopath, but he is effectively forced to play one 24/7 by his own conception of the needs of the Capellan state and Isis could not understand that. Making it clear to her in the most hurtful personal way possible was an expression of his human pettiness, not his withered sense of compassion.

Ding!  That's what I read.  STL being a dick because he knew (or thought he knew) that Isis couldn't really be useful to him anymore.  Thomas certainly wasn't going to go to war over her when he had a new heir and seemed most interested in forgetting that she even existed.