Author Topic: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?  (Read 10230 times)

Wombat

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Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« on: 26 January 2013, 13:01:37 »
I'm sure I've read this somewhere. Elemental Battle Armor typically has nine (9) points of damage against 'mech-grade weapons.

...but what about personal weapons? How many points of armor (from a mechwariors perspective) would Elemental Battle Armor have if I wanted to grab a 9mm and a whole lot of clips, or perhaps against a Blaster pistol or Sunbeam personal laser?
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HABeas2

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #1 on: 26 January 2013, 13:13:07 »
Hello,

I dunno. What does it say in A Time of War? Specifically on pp. 186-188, where this is actually discussed?

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Wombat

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #2 on: 26 January 2013, 13:37:06 »
Well if I wasn't at work right now, actively planning a campaign, I would have looked it up at home...and so I shall when I return. I thought I might get a quick answer online. But thank you for shaming me. Its been a pleasure.
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Paul

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #3 on: 26 January 2013, 16:34:21 »
Not entirely sure where the 'shaming' kicks in, but the purpose of that forum is specifically to resolve issues with the rules, not as a means to gain access to rules you don't have access to right now. For that kind of help, you'll likely want to ask in the Roleplaying forum, where I've moved this thread.


So, on that note, regular Elementals have 10 points of TW scale armor.
The table on p.187 indicates this works as 9/8/8/8. But it being Battle Armor, it works a little different than regular body armor rated at those values.
A Sunbeam does 4E/4. Let's say you also got a MOS of 4 for another point of damage.
You're facing BAR 8 armor for energy, so the difference between the gun's AP of 4E and the armor is 4. So your Damage is reduced from 5 to 1. If it wasn't for the MOS, you'd do no damage at all.
That 1 damage is then divided by 8, the BAR of the armor you're striking, just as if you were shooting a vehicle. You do 0.125 damage, which rounds to 0. Drat, no damage at all.

Note that tactical armor doesn't degrade like regular armor. That Elemental's BAR will stay 9/8/8/8 until you whittle away its last point.
Also, attacks that do subduing damage do nothing to Battle Armor.
Finally, if you do manage to cause damage, the operator of the suit also suffers damage. He suffers the damage you did to the suit -1.

Let's say you're firing an SRM at it. That's Class E ordnance. Let's say you're using anti-vehicle rounds, so 8X/12A.
It's BAR of 8 matches your AP, so you do 12 damage + anything you might get from MOS. Let's say your MOS was +4, enough for +1 damage. 13 damage total.
That's then divided by the BAR of 8 for 1.625 damage, which rounds to 2 damage.  The operator suffers that 2 -1 damage, so takes 1 point of damage.

Another alternative is to use the Battle Armor critical rules found in ATOW:C, which can allow you to degrade a battle armor's functionality even if you haven't blasted all its armor away yet.
« Last Edit: 26 January 2013, 16:37:17 by Paul »
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Wombat

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #4 on: 26 January 2013, 17:00:29 »
Well thank you kindly, sir. I shall now go plan mayhem.  :)
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Paul

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #5 on: 26 January 2013, 17:04:19 »
May you manage your mayhem magnanimously, without malice, and with much merit.
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BirdofPrey

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #6 on: 26 January 2013, 17:12:28 »
You know, it occurs to me, some canon platoons that can scratch BA at TW scale might actually fail to do anything to the same BA squad in AToW scale.
« Last Edit: 26 January 2013, 17:55:54 by BirdofPrey »

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #7 on: 26 January 2013, 17:16:19 »
You know, it occurs to me, some canon platoons that can scratch BA at TW scale might actually fail to do anything to the same BA squad in AToW scale.

Yeah, there's a couple of those kinds of thresholds on both ends; some platoons/gear combo's are more efficient in ATOW scale than TW scale.
Still, presuming buff skills on the infantry, or freaky dicerolling can close some of those gaps. For PC's, burning Edge can be another damage pump.
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BirdofPrey

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #8 on: 26 January 2013, 17:22:36 »
It's always interesting to see stuff like that.

I was also reading Final Reckoning today which mentions the Machina Dominae Suit is dangerous to infantry, but under AToW you can kill one with a handgun since its a PA(L) without extended life support (thus halving the BAR values allowing a handgun to do 2 damage to the suit which only has 2 HP)

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #9 on: 26 January 2013, 17:29:00 »
It's always interesting to see stuff like that.

I was also reading Final Reckoning today which mentions the Machina Dominae Suit is dangerous to infantry, but under AToW you can kill one with a handgun since its a PA(L) without extended life support (thus halving the BAR values allowing a handgun to do 2 damage to the suit which only has 2 HP)

I may be misunderstanding you (or just getting the rules wrong) but where did you get that from? Life sucks for exoskeletons, but PA(L) don't suffer the x3 Standard damage nor the -2 to BAR penalty on p. 186 and 187 respectively.
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BirdofPrey

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #10 on: 26 January 2013, 17:47:14 »
Oh whoops, that's a reading failure on my part.

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #11 on: 26 January 2013, 17:52:16 »
Oh whoops, that's a reading failure on my part.

No worries, I've had plenty of those myself.
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monbvol

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #12 on: 26 January 2013, 22:51:11 »
But that does show that there is some caution warranted for low BAR objects in the game.

Some common sense adjustments may need to be made to prevent some rather odd things.

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #13 on: 26 January 2013, 23:18:46 »
But that does show that there is some caution warranted for low BAR objects in the game.

Some common sense adjustments may need to be made to prevent some rather odd things.

I'm not following you on the need for caution with low BAR objects. Can you give an example or two?
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monbvol

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #14 on: 26 January 2013, 23:36:24 »
According to page 186 of AToW unless otherwise specified the internal structure of an object that uses Tactical Armor both have the same BAR rating.  So say a CS535 hover car(BAR rating 2, page 56 TRO:Vehicle Annex Revised) and operator are coming at you.  You throw a Tomahawk at the hover car.  Assuming pretty standard Strength of 4 that's enough to render the entire vehicle as a total write off since the internal structure is now depleted.

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #15 on: 26 January 2013, 23:51:43 »
According to page 186 of AToW unless otherwise specified the internal structure of an object that uses Tactical Armor both have the same BAR rating.  So say a CS535 hover car(BAR rating 2, page 56 TRO:Vehicle Annex Revised) and operator are coming at you.  You throw a Tomahawk at the hover car.  Assuming pretty standard Strength of 4 that's enough to render the entire vehicle as a total write off since the internal structure is now depleted.

Not precisely.
First off, STR does not provide damage bonuses to thrown weapons, it only affects range.
But let's say you struck with a MOS of 4, so your tomahawk will now do 2 Damage at AP 3. Since your AP is equal than or greater than the BAR of the car, you do not reduce the 2 damage, but you still have to divide it by 2 for the BAR2 armor.
So, the Tomahawk removes the armor from that location, but does not yet destroy the vehicle. A second one will be needed for that.

Which is still wonky and perhaps worthy of consideration. A hipshot idea I have (and they don't always survive, so take it lightly) is to maybe look at the BAR conversions battle armor gets below a certain level.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #16 on: 26 January 2013, 23:59:41 »
My standard method is to not stress the armor BAR and treat the structure BAR as a minimum of six.
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monbvol

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #17 on: 27 January 2013, 00:36:24 »
Knew I should have used the .38 Special example instead.  Oh well brain fart but point made for those low BAR objects I think.

My standard method is to not stress the armor BAR and treat the structure BAR as a minimum of six.

I guess we can chalk that up to belated Beta feedback since we're both Beta testers for AToW.  That way Paul can use the idea without too much trouble.

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #18 on: 27 January 2013, 00:40:34 »
Isn't it gamma testing by now? =)

But yeah, my BA idea was referring to the internals. Bullets will easily riddle a car, but actually ending its functionality takes a fair few of them.
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monbvol

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #19 on: 27 January 2013, 00:47:13 »
Well I did know that it would not be until well after we've had several in depth game sessions with AToW to find all the issues we have in our group.  It is just most of them were not clear until after Beta was closed.  If I'd found half the things I now have house rules for before Beta was finished up I do wonder what AToW would look like currently.

But getting back more to the discussion on Tactical Armor and BAR ratings I do like the implication AToW is making about Support/Disposable Weapons being more useful for cracking those tin cans than standard Small Arms.

HABeas2

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #20 on: 27 January 2013, 01:09:54 »
Hello,

Isn't it gamma testing by now? =)

But yeah, my BA idea was referring to the internals. Bullets will easily riddle a car, but actually ending its functionality takes a fair few of them.

*tsk* Too bad. Either way, it's your gaming table, but since a BAR 2 vehicle basically reflects a vehicle about as delicate as glass (see Barrier Armor Table, p. 187, AToW), we're talking damage that can be easily justified based on the vehicle's high speed and paper-thin design, which also includes the ultra-light chassis modification. The CS535 is, essentially, a speed demon's death trap.

Now, any GM worth his salt will throw tons of mods at you for your hatchet throw (or pistol shot) based on speed and range considerations. And, if you're in the line of the vehicle's "attack", I'd go so far as to force a RFL Check with an extremely high modifier to dodge the wreck you just caused should you score that vehicle-killing hit. But modding the BAR rules? Meh. Not necessary. You selected an extreme example; you got extreme results.

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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #21 on: 27 January 2013, 01:31:58 »
Hardly an extreme example. There are numerous vehicles with bar 2 structure in vehicle annex. Many don't even  bother with armor, and are but an unpowered sword swing away from destruction. Or a shot from a holdout pistol. A two and a half ton ambulance is less likely to stand up to a survival knife than a reasonably buff man.

Typical vehicles are a long way away from an extreme.
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monbvol

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #22 on: 27 January 2013, 01:41:10 »
Don't get me wrong I'd probably apply a fair number of modifiers myself and use some common sense about the physics of if the target is in motion.

Now I'm not against the idea that you could stop a car with a single bullet.  A lucky shot could crack the engine block or some other vital part of the conveyance in question.  Something that should be easily repairable and it would be easy enough to resolve via the available Vehicle Critical Hit effect tables we have available.  That's where the common sense really needs to come in.  Because as it stands now such a target could never be repaired/salvaged via the only rules we have to determine such a thing(StratOps Page 175).  Liam's Ghost's minimum BAR idea has some merit to help limit the Hatchet/Sword/Katana aspect of it but wouldn't help against the revolver aspect.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #23 on: 27 January 2013, 02:32:38 »
Total tangent... I understand completely why we don't have any rules covering how an elite ninja with a vibrokatana might assassinate an unsuspecting Elemental with one deft stroke.  The issues for game balance are mind boggling.   

But still, would be nice to be able to dangle the threat at players of Armored Troopers, at least without playing the "I'm the GM and I don't play BY the rules, I MAKE THE RULES!" card.

HABeas2

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #24 on: 27 January 2013, 04:22:14 »
Hello,

Hardly an extreme example. There are numerous vehicles with bar 2 structure in vehicle annex. Many don't even  bother with armor, and are but an unpowered sword swing away from destruction. Or a shot from a holdout pistol. A two and a half ton ambulance is less likely to stand up to a survival knife than a reasonably buff man.

Typical vehicles are a long way away from an extreme.

I still see no problem here.

Thank you,

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HABeas2

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #25 on: 27 January 2013, 04:27:49 »
Hello,

But still, would be nice to be able to dangle the threat at players of Armored Troopers, at least without playing the "I'm the GM and I don't play BY the rules, I MAKE THE RULES!" card.

No. This is a role-playing game, not the tactical game. The tactical game is designed to abstract away individuality and make X unit type better than Y unit type. An RPG is designed for much more free-form play, and we realized pretty early on that trying to build meticulous rules for every instance was asking for a psychosis. It's role-playing; use your imaginations! That goes for the GMs as well as the players, of you may as well just play standard BattleTech.

That's why my answer to Wombat at the start of this thread didn't consist of an exact number of shots it takes to drop an armored Toad. Contrary to Wombat's opinion, it wasn't an effort to shame or be rude. Our role-playing system simply doesn't work like that.

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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #26 on: 27 January 2013, 05:52:09 »
Hello,

I still see no problem here.

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas

That's because you clearly don't frustrate your players enough where stabbing an ambulance to death seems like a rational response. 
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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HABeas2

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #27 on: 27 January 2013, 12:33:29 »
Hello,

Perhaps. But if that's your goal and you want cars that don't fall apart when stabbed, maybe you should pick something a bit tougher from the Vehicle Annex? Perhaps one of the armored cars, or WorkMechs?

Thanks,

- Herbert Beas

BirdofPrey

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #28 on: 27 January 2013, 12:43:19 »
Anybody know where I can find a sword that can cut my neighbor's loud motorcycle in half with a few strokes?
:P

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monbvol

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Re: Elemental Armor - points of Mechwarrior (or ATOW) damage?
« Reply #29 on: 27 January 2013, 13:33:55 »
Well as I said I don't actually have too much of a problem potentially crippling most civilian ground vehicles(a quick skim through TRO:VA(R) puts most such things at BAR 2-4) with little effort.  Where I find the oddity is that it renders such things unrepairable.

Watch these three links:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Maybe I'm thinking about things a bit wrong by having a disconnect with fairly simple means killing vehicles beyond possible repair.

 

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