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BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Sjhernan3060 on 21 December 2016, 15:59:11

Title: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 21 December 2016, 15:59:11
So I have been focused on this idea of growing the 3060 Blood Spirit fleet. Recognizing they could not afford to trade or purchase more warships how would they go about trialing for some?

I know in the WoR many Naval Caches were opened up and or plundered. Could say the Spirits declare a trial of possession for a cache or part of a cache?

Especially in the early 60’s do we have an idea of what forces would have defended them?

Could you send an elite star and declare: “ We are declaring a trial of possession for ummmm the coolest ship you have!”

Seriously what do you think defended the caches ( Solahama? Green kids? Vets? ) and how much would it take to get what you wanted? 

I would think that early on if you sent in an ultra elite unit you could crush what ever was guarded it and take what you wanted
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 22 December 2016, 10:57:33
So I have been focused on this idea of growing the 3060 Blood Spirit fleet. Recognizing they could not afford to trade or purchase more warships how would they go about trialing for some?

The clans are not know to hide information, so trialing for some is a perfectly fine attempt to get them, the downside is that most of the warships in a cache are in a state they would likely need dedicated shipyard slips to bring them to full strength - and that would likely require a trial itself, though trade is possible.  A formal trial (or one that would leave the least bad feelings on the other side) would probably include a challenge made directly to the Khans of the cache’s owning clan, and then bargaining for the size and forces on either side would be hashed out.  Just showing up and declaring a trial to the dedicated defenders is entirely possible, and given the psychology of the Blood Spirits at the time is probable, but is also much more likely to rub the opposing clan the wrong way and cause reprisals – which the Blood Spirits are unlikely to be able to deal with at this time.

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I know in the WoR many Naval Caches were opened up and or plundered. Could say the Spirits declare a trial of possession for a cache or part of a cache?

Yep

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Especially in the early 60’s do we have an idea of what forces would have defended them?

Nope, odds are that the dedicated defenders are Freebirth Solahma, and are unlikely to have more than a couple old SLDF dropships and maybe a star of old SLDF ASF.  More likely there will be a smallish space station, mostly with technical crew, but with a small number of Solahma, probably enough to fill out a mixed star, but some of the points will likely be the equivalent of unarmored infantry (also performing a dual role, maintenance and defense).  I'll emphasize that this is merely my own theory, use whatever works for your game.

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Could you send an elite star and declare: “ We are declaring a trial of possession for ummmm the coolest ship you have!”

Seriously what do you think defended the caches ( Solahama? Green kids? Vets? ) and how much would it take to get what you wanted? 

I would think that early on if you sent in an ultra elite unit you could crush what ever was guarded it and take what you wanted

Whatever you decide to do, the size and the quality of forces are going to indicate to other clans the level of want/need the Blood Spirits are putting into acquiring these assets.  An elite star is probably not too much if a formal trial is declared - unless it is part of a Keshik – that much or more may smack of the overuse of force if they are only going up against the dedicated defenders.

My 2 cents at least.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 22 December 2016, 11:03:24
EXCELLENT info and thoughts Vition! Especially with regards to the potential for escalation.... So a small resource strapped Clan COULD get away with a raid or two but not a more than that...
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 22 December 2016, 11:54:44
Going for a warship would have a clan use a warship to defend. Blood Spirits might be able to gain yard time from the Ravens for any ships they gain though.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: snewsom2997 on 22 December 2016, 15:04:43
Going for a warship would have a clan use a warship to defend. Blood Spirits might be able to gain yard time from the Ravens for any ships they gain though.

I don;t know, I could see the Attacking and Defending Captain going one on one in ASF's or even simulators to decide. Warships are far too valuable to trial over like Mechs.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 22 December 2016, 16:53:09
What Snewsom2997 suggests is what I was thinking.  The clans will certainly use warships if another clan is attempting to attain control over an active warship.  But mothballed warships are another story, they are of little use to most clans in the short term, and most clans have trouble looking to the long term when they would be useful.  This, plus the idea that the clans don't think much of their warship forces, indicates to me that many clans will use smaller forces.  Now, there may very well be a warship nearby which could spoil an attack - this would become more and more likely if the attacks are targeting the dedicated defending forces.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Dreyf on 22 December 2016, 17:21:22
Since the defender gets to choose the location of the trial, the defending clan could easily choose someplace on the inhabited world in the system.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 22 December 2016, 19:01:37
It would be a aerospace duel certainly rather than a mech fight.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 December 2016, 20:14:42
If they are in a cache, who defends them?  I do not remember reading anything about any defense of the two Kimagures that the Ravens pulled out to build into their Ark Royals.

Nice thing is with the Reavings and others leaving we do hear some of what is in the caches (like 3 more Kimagures . . . ).
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 23 December 2016, 08:06:37
Something I would have liked to see is a more formal alliance between the spirits and Ravens. Spirit led force could have been the muscle with the Ravens supplying the know how to get the ships going
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 23 December 2016, 11:08:15
Most of the naval caches should be empty after the WoR.

However, I believe some ships should still be cached so they might get activated again.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 23 December 2016, 16:53:40
I bet the caches were full of non-warships and even old dropships. General Kerensky's fleet was made up of more than just warships after all. I would hazard to guess maybe even a a Potemkin or two may still be out there. 
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 23 December 2016, 18:51:19
If you are looking for what might actually be in a cache there was a small discussion here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1791.450

Odds are there are between 10 and 30 warships in the various caches, with the low end being what's mentioned in the Wars of Reaving and the high end being around 50ish (estimation).  Most of these are likely to be smaller or otherwise less useful or harder to modernize warships.  I very much doubt there are any Potemkins left in the caches, they are simply too useful to be left sitting when various clans needed massive amounts of materials to ship to and from the occupation zones - but that doesn't stop you from putting some in anyways.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 27 December 2016, 11:07:45
I started this thread for some story and campaign ideas for my Blood Spirits. Recognizing they in the 3060 time frame are resource poor but rich in rage and elite troops what types of fleet assets do you think they would want?

Previous poster has mentioned various older ships military and non.

BTW I am surprised the Spirits did not make something like this earlier:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Arcadia_(DropShip_class)
Are there any pocket warship or similar that the Spirits could have would have had access to in 3060?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 27 December 2016, 11:36:30
BTW I am surprised the Spirits did not make something like this earlier:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Arcadia_(DropShip_class)
Are there any pocket warship or similar that the Spirits could have would have had access to in 3060?


By canon, no, pocket warships didn't make their debut until the Jihad, and the clans were - generally - slower to adopt them than the Inner Sphere powers.  That said, there were some assault ships they may have had access to: any from the SLDF and the Noruff.  It also wouldn't be too far fetched to think that they could turn some of their less used transport dropships into assault dropships by tearing out the bay and adding weapon blisters in their place.  That would take a fair bit of effort, but is entirely possible.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 27 December 2016, 12:07:21
  It also wouldn't be too far fetched to think that they could turn some of their less used transport dropships into assault dropships by tearing out the bay and adding weapon blisters in their place.  That would take a fair bit of effort, but is entirely possible.

Right?

I recall in FM Crusader Clans the Star Commodore of the Spirits agitating for more resources - a scrappy Clan like the Spirits SHOULD have been raiding caches for old derelicts to revamp and transports to up armor and weaponize.

It was a shame to me that when the Adders came calling to York it was not a tougher nut to crack...   
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 04 January 2017, 15:32:52
Besides the GB novel Test Vengance are their canon examples of Elementals boarding and capturing vessels?

So if you were the Spirits how would you grow your fleet?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 04 January 2017, 16:07:00
Are you talking about a cache belonging to a clan or the large cache of warships the Clans a whole possess? Many of those are in need of much repair, such as the ones the Jaguars exchanged after they Absorbed Clan Mongoose. In addition, the Clan would need to get permission from the Grand Council to obtain those ships.

In addition to the WarShip, you'll also need troops to crew it.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 09 January 2017, 15:07:07
I did not know there were caches held in trust for all clans. Could they spirits have netted some for exploration ?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 09 January 2017, 15:58:57
I did not know there were caches held in trust for all clans. Could they spirits have netted some for exploration ?

On the sly? Probably. But would doing so even have crossed there minds? That's the question. I have always figured the Spirits Jumpship fleet wasn't destroyed and there were surviving merchant caste ships still out there after the Star Adders annihilated the Spirits. When the dropships were trying to escape the worlds of the Colleen system and the Star Adders destroyed them there were trying to reach something after all. Die on a planet or die in the cold blackness of space. No, I think there were jumpships waiting for those dropships. I have a theory the Spirits had another hidden system like Colleen. Probably not as nice but another hidden colony the Clans never found out about.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 09 January 2017, 21:06:19
Again supposing the Spirits had not tossed away so much of their strength in the Absorption war their fleet would still have been ( the) or one of the smallest correct?

What if instead of joining in the meat grinder of the Wars of Possession they instead enacted the Collen/Haven colonization plans earlier?

In a similar vein if they had asked the Council for permission to open some of the caches do you have to provide sometihng in return?

How much of an explanation would be needed?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 09 January 2017, 22:02:07
Again supposing the Spirits had not tossed away so much of their strength in the Absorption war their fleet would still have been ( the) or one of the smallest correct?

Yes, they only had 6 warships prior to the Burrock Absorption, the typical clan fleet had between 10 and 15, with a rare few having more than that.  Their largest ship could have been a battleship, but more likely was no larger than a battlecruiser - we don't actually know what 2 warship classes they lost during that war.

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What if instead of joining in the meat grinder of the Wars of Possession they instead enacted the Collen/Haven colonization plans earlier?

That would give them a possible strong future, but in the immediate it's going to be a drain of resources.  Unless all you are doing is creating some mines to take important metals to your already industrialized homeworld, it will take decades before you start to see a net "profit" from the new colony.

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In a similar vein if they had asked the Council for permission to open some of the caches do you have to provide sometihng in return?

How much of an explanation would be needed?

The question asked probably would have led to a vote, many would probably abstain.  If they lost the vote, they could trial over it, if they won, a couple of spiteful clans might trial them over it.  Not interfering in the Burrock Absorption would have probably decreased the enmity the Adders had for them, so they might get away with a couple of ships without a trial - though much more than a destroyer and other clans are probably gonna try to say "no."
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 11 January 2017, 22:42:01
With regards to crews I woukd think the spirits would have a large pool to draw from due to the very high wash out rate.

Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 12 January 2017, 00:33:47
Actually, Spirit losses in the Absorption War was sort of vague because if a cluster did not follow the Founder's plan- 3 Mech Trinaries, 1 Vehicle Trinary, 1 INF/BA Trinary- then it was disbanded.

No matter if they had colonized those worlds earlier, when the Wars of Reaving started and the Adders were wiping them out . . . they were on the Wolverine trail.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 12 January 2017, 08:49:02
With regards to crews I woukd think the spirits would have a large pool to draw from due to the very high wash out rate.

Jim Blood Spirit, you've washed out of Elemental training. Go pilot that WarShip, it can't be that hard.  #P
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 12 January 2017, 13:01:49
Jim Blood Spirit, you've washed out of Elemental training. Go pilot that WarShip, it can't be that hard.  #P
If he has shown talent, why should he have not begun a training?

----------

BTW I would have liked to see some more Clan updates of old warship classes (Kimagure, Baron, Farragut, Du Shi Wang et cetera)
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 12 January 2017, 14:10:01
If he has shown talent, why should he have not begun a training?

----------

BTW I would have liked to see some more Clan updates of old warship classes (Kimagure, Baron, Farragut, Du Shi Wang et cetera)

Because infrastructure doesn't just magically appear. They suddenly have to dramatically increase their training programs, schools, instructors, etc.

And we did update (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Quicksilver_Mongoose) the Du Shi Wang.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 12 January 2017, 14:16:01
Because infrastructure doesn't just magically appear. They suddenly have to dramatically increase their training programs, schools, instructors, etc.

The Spirits did have naval forces. So they had to have some training facalities/academies.
And we know they had ever had a surplus of warriors, they did not have the material.

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And we did update (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Quicksilver_Mongoose) the Du Shi Wang.

Ah, I remember. THX  :)
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 12 January 2017, 14:32:57
The Spirits did have naval forces. So they had to have some training facalities/academies.
And we know they had ever had a surplus of warriors, they did not have the material.


Warriors are nice but there aren't that many in a WarShip. They need a whole lot of technicians and need to somehow get them trained in a hurry.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 12 January 2017, 14:49:26
Interesting PoV.

So the Spirits did have a shortage of qualified lower castepeople (engineers, technicians, scientists)? Even more important than a shortage of raw materials because without those qualified people they could not build the facilities they would need for construct and maintain more advanced war gear?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 12 January 2017, 15:02:48
Kit brings to the fore my main point how could a low resourced Clan like the spirits grown their naval power?

In cannon they made protos their own why not do a similar thing with Pocketwarships. After the Burrock Absorption the ravens were leery of the Adder fleet which had swollen in size. I would have liked the ravens and spirits to have worked together to develop those. And heck it would have been very Raven like to have the Spirits be the crash test dummies for the new designs : )
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 12 January 2017, 15:04:12
Interesting PoV.

So the Spirits did have a shortage of qualified lower castepeople (engineers, technicians, scientists)?

I would think the opposite, everything I have read points to a lack of resources being their big hiderance
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 12 January 2017, 15:05:18
Pocket warships were unknown to the Homeclans. IIRC only the Sharks used two Excalibur PWS in the WoR (Battle for Vinton).

This could have introduced the idea to the Homeclans for some future designs post WoR.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 12 January 2017, 18:15:47
Clan Warships are almost entirely Technician Caste crewed with Warriors in the top spots. Yes, there the officers and the Techs are the enlisted. Getting warriors freed up for those spots probably isn't the problem, its the techs. You can only learn and transfer so much from taking crews from jumpship crews.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Terminax on 13 January 2017, 04:56:16
By the power of fiat, you can do anything you want with your game. Don't get too hung up on overthinking it, TPTB never have. Nobody should shame you for playing the way you want to play.

My own Blood Spirit campaign of a few years back, went the colonization route about twenty years sooner than canon and it reaped considerable rewards. While they were building up their new colonial assets, they focused their efforts on absorbing individual Fire Mandrill Kindraa, targeting a couple that had setup on their own and thusly, had part of the Fire Mandrill fleet with them. By the time they'd absorbed half the Fire Mandrill Kindraa and were dragged in front of the Clan Council, they made the argument that obviously the Fire Mandrill weren't actually a Clan anymore, being obviously unable to defend itself in combat. So they turned it around and got to absorb the rest of the Fire Mandrills. As part of that process, they were able to pick up a trio of additional Warships and remove two others from the Fire Mandrills at a cost of losing one of their own Warships before picking up the rest in the end game of the absorption.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 13 January 2017, 07:22:48
Thanks terminax,

I know in canon the spirits developed many fans because they wre the scrappy underdogs ( who made many poor decisions) but the way they were written teased hope which was then snuffed out
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 13 January 2017, 08:04:50
Some fairly easy and reasonable options that could exist for them include "buying/harvesting" lower level technical personnel from the Ravens - they probably aren't going to consider you a threat to their naval supremacy until you start getting warship numbers above twenty, so they probably aren't going to have an issue with providing lower level personnel.  Another option, simply increase the class size in their existing warship training program, two-three years down the road and you can have trained personnel ready to crew more warships.  The only thing the second option might be lacking is similar levels of simulator training than previous classes.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 13 January 2017, 10:57:09
Be careful listening to Terminax, he literally doesn't know what he's talking about. He's never planned out a story arc for the entire plot line, never gone through the outlining of a product, the submission process for it, the discussion as the story is worked on, the feedback from proofreaders and editors or the final adjustments that are made to ensure that everything flows well.

He is right that you can do what you want in your story but the more thought and work put into it will make it a better story.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 13 January 2017, 13:31:15
Hence my endlessly rewrites in my mind but I do appreciate terminax for encouraging creativity
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 13 January 2017, 15:40:26
Blood Spirits didn't die. There in hell regrouping.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 13 January 2017, 15:47:14
Do folks on here know about Shapeways?

Cool site to get interesting/custom minis:

https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace/?tag=space+station
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Terminax on 13 January 2017, 15:50:04
Aside from Kit being well Kit, overreacting and denigrating me- my point wasn't so much to poke at CGL creative but to tell you to do what you want with your game.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 13 January 2017, 16:09:33
Aside from Kit being well Kit, overreacting and denigrating me- my point wasn't so much to poke at CGL creative but to tell you to do what you want with your game.

Posting falsehoods, like you did, is far more denigrating than posting facts, like I did. Sorry if you feel that correcting a lie is overreacting but that's how I live my life. It's plenty easy to suggest people do what they want with their own game without slapping up some incorrect statement.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Terminax on 13 January 2017, 16:23:56
What falsehood? Aside from a couple of possible instances, I don't think many outcomes in the Battletech universe were decided from a dice roll.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Terminax on 13 January 2017, 17:16:02
I don't think lack of warm bodies is necessarily the problem the Blood Spirits had. Up until the Absorption War they were making gains materially if slowly. The real thing that did them in, was making an enemy out of the Star Adders in the course of things. That would have been a burden in any future the Blood Spirit's would have, assuming a post-WoR environment where the Star Adders dominate as they did. Add to that, more than their share of bad luck and the shattering of their Touman in the Viper Annihilation and there's not much you can do there.

That said, let's start in 3049 - in the post-trial to determine the Clan Invasion forces. The Blood Spirits made a decent showing, all things considered. Didn't take allot of damage in losing, still have their larger than generally believed Touman and all of their post-Raven deal Warships (two of which are unnamed/classified). Up until Tukkayid (???) the Clans were supposedly "banned" from most inter Clan trials at the order of the IlKhan I suppose to preserve the fighting strength of the Invaders - not too sure on that, but it's something like that. So you got a four-five window there to work with something like colonization - which the Clan did later (quite successfully but with less overall resources/pressure from the Star Adder occupation of York).

After that, you got a few years where you could add raiding other Clans for their resources. Then later still you have the Absorption War which guts the Blood Spirits Touman and creates a deep enmity with the Star Adders. So what if that doesn't happen. Say the Star Adders never learn of the dirty dealings of the Burrocks? You still have the Burrocks as your eternal foe, but that's entirely more manageable than what the Star Adders become. It'd change the dynamics of the WoR as well, but it's food for thought.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 13 January 2017, 18:31:46
What falsehood? Aside from a couple of possible instances, I don't think many outcomes in the Battletech universe were decided from a dice roll.

*Clears throat loudly*

*Shifts eyes to point something out*

Quote from: Kit deSummerville
Precentor of Lies

re: Terminiax - He totally got you.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Jellico on 14 January 2017, 03:47:33
Kit brings to the fore my main point how could a low resourced Clan like the spirits grown their naval power?

In cannon they made protos their own why not do a similar thing with Pocketwarships. After the Burrock Absorption the ravens were leery of the Adder fleet which had swollen in size. I would have liked the ravens and spirits to have worked together to develop those. And heck it would have been very Raven like to have the Spirits be the crash test dummies for the new designs : )

The Inner Sphere is a low WarShip density environment. In the Homeworlds single worlds are defended by Stars.
It is highly questionable that PWS would be available in large enough numbers to threaten WarShips. If you want a cheap flotilla defense use ASF.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 14 January 2017, 13:09:01
PWS's I think would be a odd fit for the Clans. Only a few had shipyards and generally the Clans went to other Clans to build or upgrade there fleets. Before the WoR's the Snow Ravens were the big boys on the block for this. There is only so much yard space available and a constant need for upgrades, refits, and new construction. A new style of Dropship, the PWS would not be considered a priority or if they did get pushed to the fore not in any meaningful numbers. After the WoR the shipyards are almost all destroyed or dedicated to rebuilding the fleets of the remaining Clans.

Now you can build Dropships on a planet but its slow work I would think and resource intensive. The Blood Spirits might be able to build a few but thats about it. And in the warship heavy pre-WoR Homeworlds there is no need to both in the fact there really not needed but also they would get popped like balloons by regular warships.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Terminax on 14 January 2017, 13:45:53
Taking a resource like a naval cache has it's own headaches. You'll need to protect the naval cache until your prize crews can take stock of what's in the cache and recondition what you can until you can move it, which is likely going to take at least a few weeks to a few months at the very least. And even supposing you can move the ships, you're probably going to need at least some shipyard time... and for the Blood Spirits, that means probably going to the Snow Ravens. Then add that the Clan that you took that Cache from isn't just going to be idly standing by. You're probably best off by being opportunistic and going for a weaker target like one of the Abjured Clans or the carcass of the Smoke Jaguars if we're talking post-Great Refusal.

You kind of need to peg down the time frame you want to work in first, then you can figure out your options from there.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Maingunnery on 14 January 2017, 14:15:55

You have at least one thing going for you, the Blood Spirits and the Snow Ravens generally have a good relationship (not exactly allies). The backstory of the Arcadia (DropShip class) is a good example of this.

If they really want larger PWS, then they might want to look into asking the Ravens to develop a refit for turning old SL Mule Dropships into a Clan PWS or Armored CV. Those should be decently available enough and shouldn't require trails or asking the council.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 14 January 2017, 15:23:57
Now you can build Dropships on a planet but its slow work I would think and resource intensive.

Got it backwards.  Building in space would be resource intensive because you do not have gravity to hold things in place and you have to provide your labor source with food, air and water.  Oh and housing . . .

We only hear of a few DS yards and the one that comes to mind is Cyclops on Skye that built . . . Overlords?  in cradles along the coast- which also makes sense for power, materials transport and food production for the staff.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 14 January 2017, 15:27:23
Taking a resource like a naval cache has it's own headaches. You'll need to protect the naval cache until your prize crews can take stock of what's in the cache and recondition what you can until you can move it, which is likely going to take at least a few weeks to a few months at the very least. And even supposing you can move the ships, you're probably going to need at least some shipyard time... and for the Blood Spirits, that means probably going to the Snow Ravens. Then add that the Clan that you took that Cache from isn't just going to be idly standing by. You're probably best off by being opportunistic and going for a weaker target like one of the Abjured Clans or the carcass of the Smoke Jaguars if we're talking post-Great Refusal.

You kind of need to peg down the time frame you want to work in first, then you can figure out your options from there.

Mongoose and Widowmaker are probably two Clans that have caches of warships still floating about and the possibility that they moved them to a location to keep other Clans from finding them is always a possibility.  A thing to note as well. One or more of the Clans may have had Mckenna Battleships still. Eighteen were noted to have left with Kerensky but only nine have ever been named still in service with the Clans. Maybe a few were destroyed during the Pentagon Civil War but there might be one or two floating, though there condition may be very lousy.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 16 January 2017, 13:42:58
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Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Warship on 21 January 2017, 15:19:12
With their limited resources, I think the Spirits would have started developing PWS's after the Burrock Absorption debacle.  The real question to me is whether they would use nuclear missiles in them.  Buying into the lies about the Wolverines, I would say no.  But, with their backs to a wall, and no escape in site, I would think Schmitt and her advisors would say yes; either that or extinction. 

The Blood Fury is in trouble twenty PWS's show up and receive permission to deploy their nukes.  Two Adder warships go to MC2, and the others start to pull back, possibly to run for it.  Now the Spirits and their PWS's pursue to try and destroy all remaining Adder ships in the York system.  To make it work, they must destroy/capture every single vessel. 
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 22 January 2017, 06:23:11
I doubt that the Spirits did have the resources to start a crash program of developing and building PWS.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 22 January 2017, 09:36:28
So should they have trialed for them?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Warship on 22 January 2017, 11:01:30
I doubt that the Spirits did have the resources to start a crash program of developing and building PWS.

I am thinking in their desperation they would mount a few capitol weapons on unneeded dropships.  Then after running some simulations, contact the Ravens.  The Ravens would probably jump at the idea as it would add a surprise to their expected eventual encounters with the Adder fleet.  Using the Spirits as a testbed would absolve the Ravens of any actions should word leak out.  As I think about it more, I could see the Ravens jumping into York at the moment the Spirits unleash their nuclear-armed PWS's, to make sure no Adder vessels escaped. 

Just think about the implications.  The Adders send a major hunk of their fleet and ground forces to York only to go missing.  The Adders would be hurt too heavily to send another force and too embarrassed to complain in the Council.  In the meantime, both the Spirits and the Ravens grow their new secret (I know, I know, Clan Watches and all) PWS forces.  With no blockade, the Spirits can be more active in hunting down resources to rebuild their forces and maybe even add a few new warships.

This is just an idea sparked by the original post.  I have always disliked the idea of any Clan being absorbed or destroyed.  To paraphrase Ruby Rod, "I do not some Clans, I want all Clans"; or something like that.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 22 January 2017, 22:03:56
With their limited resources, I think the Spirits would have started developing PWS's after the Burrock Absorption debacle.  The real question to me is whether they would use nuclear missiles in them.  Buying into the lies about the Wolverines, I would say no.  But, with their backs to a wall, and no escape in site, I would think Schmitt and her advisors would say yes; either that or extinction. 

The Blood Fury is in trouble twenty PWS's show up and receive permission to deploy their nukes.  Two Adder warships go to MC2, and the others start to pull back, possibly to run for it.  Now the Spirits and their PWS's pursue to try and destroy all remaining Adder ships in the York system.  To make it work, they must destroy/capture every single vessel.

You run into the issue that PWS's weren't even a thought yet after the Burrock Absorbtion, and the group that did develop the idea was the WoB during the Jihad. If they did go the nuke-em-all route I think it would have been in use with aerospace fighters launching warheads at warships in mass numbers. Have a real Macross Missile Massacre over York. Lot cheaper in construction as aerospace fighters are just plain cheap in comparison to dropships much less PWS's and you can make a whole lot more of them too. And any Clan can produce nuclear warheads its just that there not a normal weapon of war for the Clans. I could see the Blood Spirits using them to defend York though and even striking at Star Adder warships and jumpships elsewhere with unmarked fighters.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 23 January 2017, 08:49:36
Hmmm would there be a bunch of cached old SL era aero fighters still in the 3060 time frame? The spirits could have gotten those and bulked uo their air arm that way.

They could have also trialed for techs and pilots who would help deepen their bench
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Terminax on 25 January 2017, 19:34:23
Again, manpower wasn't the issue. Equipment was. While it isn't emphatically said, the fact that the Aerospace portion of the Touman was kept attached to the Naval Reserve certainly suggests the Clan had limited Aerospace resources and they were probably either the weakest Clan Aerospace wise or close to it. Landing a supply of Aerospace Fighters would help but it's not going to overcome a top tier Clan.

Also again, pick a firm starting point and that'll give us a better idea where to start from.

As for PWS, there's really no reason given the conditions of the Homeworlds that Clans couldn't develop technologies on their own based on needs and wants - afterall a PWS is really just a trumped up assault dropship. The Clans DO have the technology. Perhaps, after the Smoke Jaguars have been Annihilated and the Great Refusal certain Clans realize hey, the Spheroids got one of us, maybe they'll go after the rest of us and plan accordingly. Given the bottlenecks involved in building Warships, maybe they'll look to PWS to fill the gap. What is less likely is parallel development of subCapital class weaponry. So Clan PWS if they take form, will probably be capital missile carriers unless they become entangled in the Inner Sphere/Jihad sphere. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen but if you want to go with subcaps, you'll probably want to explain it in a sensible fashion.

One advantage a PWS does bring, is that it allows you to tie up less actual Warriors than you'd think since most of the crew is in not Warrior Caste. Not really saying that it outweighs the disadvantages (limited availability for starters) but worth mentioning none the less.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 26 January 2017, 10:59:30
Thanks terminax for timeline I am wondering what the spirits could have done between 3050 and 3060

Also fill free to suggest ideas if they had not jumped into the burrock absorption
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 January 2017, 11:14:09
Again, manpower wasn't the issue. Equipment was. While it isn't emphatically said, the fact that the Aerospace portion of the Touman was kept attached to the Naval Reserve certainly suggests the Clan had limited Aerospace resources and they were probably either the weakest Clan Aerospace wise or close to it.

Or it could be b/c they were rigid Clan conservatives, they kept the structure laid out by Nick and disbanded units that were understrength- or at least removed them from active rolls.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Terminax on 26 January 2017, 21:10:31
The Blood Spirits kept their Aerospace in their Naval Reserve - separate from the Clusters of the Touman so the disbanding of understrength Clusters bit doesn't really apply. Everything else written about their Aerospace infers they're not terribly strong but there are no firm numbers so they could be anything. In my view, they parceled out Trinaries and Binaries when required but their overall numbers weren't great. They certainly don't have anything like the Aerospace that most Clans do.

Anyhow I'll save the ideas for after I'm done with work this week.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 January 2017, 23:58:41
No, your supposition that because they did not have ASF in the clusters means the numbers are small/weak is unfounded.  They hold very strictly to the structure as set down by Nicki- which is why they have no ASF in those cluster, just like for example they disbanded understrength clusters after the Absorption war.

It does make you wonder how they reconciled Protos outside of ad hoc binaries and trinaries.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 27 January 2017, 10:15:27
So I am curious how the request for ASF support worked within Spirit bidding. whould a commander who won the bid with say 3 points of ASF then put in a request to Naval reserve who would then bid among themselves?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 27 January 2017, 13:59:52
If its like most other bidding they already had the ASF attached.  Its possible any available ASF elements had already bid among themselves for the chance to be included.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Terminax on 27 January 2017, 16:50:20
So you're accepting one line out of the CC FM and not the rest? The Blood Spirits are the smallest/weakest Clan by numbers and by equipment. When a good third to half the Clan is equipped with second line and SLDF era equipment (mostly the latter than the former) you know you're in trouble. So even if we assign from the Naval Reserve, a Trinary of Aerospace for every Cluster you're going to have the least Aerospace Fighters for a Clan and y'know, funnily enough we don't hear about the Blood Spirits throwing around their Aerospace like any of the other Clans do. Another point I'll make is they have lots of Aerospace phenotype castoffs to work with Protomechs - given how they're supposed to be pretty harsh in their training regime with pretty low numbers generated, I'd think that's more evidence towards my viewpoint but we don't know for sure.

As for accepting Protomechs, the Clan was desperate and Protomechs let them use a resource otherwise being wasted and it gave them pretty good results for the most part so I can see them bending.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 27 January 2017, 17:10:29
No, I am not saying throw away that line . . . what I am saying is we do not know if they are the bottom or just in the bottom tier.  I am not trying to say they have Raven or Cobra numbers- or even Bear.  But could they have more ASF, even if SL, than the Mandrills, Burrocks, Scorpions or Steel Vipers?  A possibility for sure, even if they were lower tech- and do not kid some of those 2nd line and SL are still better than Clan frontline, its not like the differences in range for mechs.  Additionally, while they may have traded away ships for equipment such a behavior does not mean they discarded ASF since they are better for system defense than warships which is more about projecting.

One other thing, they had not given up on Protos . . . they did work out a deal with the Ravens to begin designing and building the only canon Proto transport I know of (but does make some old SL ones like Confederates & Lions interesting . . . )- the Arcadia.  I actually really like the little ship & IMO the Ravens should have built a version as a Assault DS . . . which they sort of did later as the 3080 version.

My point with the Protos was were they filling them into clusters to take the place of Mech trinaries or Inf/BA trinaries?  I think the former works better for a cluster since it lets them be the maneuver element for the vehicle's anvil (hello Morrigu & SL Alacorn/Schrek) with INF in support.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Terminax on 30 January 2017, 16:09:25
Alright, here's a list of suggestions of what you can you in descending order in no particular order, save the last is the most important. Some of it is pretty scattershot, other parts are based on how my Blood Spirits campaign went and some of it specific. It's more than just "build a bigger fleet".

6) Colonization/Expanding The Clan's Resource Base

Before the Absorption War the Blood Spirits are uniquely concentrated and their Touman is at it's largest. It's also the time when the eyes of the other Clans are elsewhere. The Ice Hellions are waging the Hellion's Fury, the Invading Clans are busy carving through the Inner Sphere, and aside from the Burrocks are pretty much ignoring the Blood Spirits. Given the Blood Spirits launched their successful canon colonization while under extreme pressure and duress of constant conflict with the Star Adders they could do even better while fully healthy. You could colonize the Colleen system earlier and maybe even push a second system. Collen interjected a much needed shot in the arm of the Blood Spirits in canon and imagine the boost it could give if it had come a decade and a half earlier.

While building an infrastructure/tech base is as important (discussed next), pure resources are an advantage - instead of relying on your traditional resource base - your new stuff can feed your Touman while you trade away your existing resources for things you need. And I'll bet you'll ask "why trade what we already bring in, when we can trade the new instead?" - well, that's so your enemies (everyone is your enemy even your friends!) don't know you've setup a colony by analyzing your material resources. It's easier to explain away that you tapped new existing resources and you've suddenly got a small surplus to trade than exposing your new colony/colonies. Never show your hand (even a losing one) if you can help it.

5)Improve Your Touman/Expanding Your Touman & Technology Base

The Blood Spirits aren't known for their expansive arsenal circa 3050. The Blood Kite is about the one "alright" unit the Clan has at the time and even it has it's limitations. The Stooping Hawk and other few units they can make for themselves are nothing special. The stuff they get later isn't bad, but they and Protos are something else since show up late or after your timeframe.

Let's say you colonize Colleen early, you can trade resources to two Clans easily for stuff you need. The Diamond Sharks for industrial equipment so you can better use of your resources (internalizing new construction) and military equipment - either new frontline material or actual design/manufacturing equipment, the Snow Ravens for aerospace equipment - if the Wolves and Hell's Horses can contract for mobile repair/ship yards so can the Blood Spirits. It wouldn't give you the means to construct something like a Leviathan Prime, but it'd give you a chance to build something

Then you can add your own designs to the mix, and say this is the stuff they're building. I wouldn't get too carried away - think like a experimental TRO's allotment - a couple of mechs, a couple of vees, an aerospace fighter, a battle armor and a dropship or two - maybe a warship but you'll have your work cut out for you getting that grand. Protomech tech gives you a window into what could have been - Proto ACs for instance were pretty much undeveloped yet and there's room for other new systems that got cut off with the death of the Blood Spirits / Proto shunning the rest of the Homeworlds appear to have done.

4) Expand Your Touman/Trials For Success & Profit

WoR has several examples of the Blood Spirits working with other Clans - primarily the Fire Mandrills and the Snow Ravens to work something out so both parties benefited. The Fire Mandrills got stuff that gave them the impetus to join in with the Blood Spirits agenda (which saved their bacon) and the Snow Ravens worked out a deal with the Blood Spirits to give them an entire Galaxy worth of troops and territory in exchange for transports for their impending bug out. Sadly the Blood Spirits were still not capable enough to hold it all but they were contenders at least.

Forget working with the Smoke Jaguars. That route only holds bitterness and failure. They're purely a target to be. To them and the other Invaders you're a resource to mine for Crusader oriented warriors who want to go the Inner Sphere. Better to be the predator, than the Prey. I'll add just coz the Crusaders shared a philosophy, they're all pretty far apart on the details - don't mistake them allying to invade the Inner Sphere to be some sort of commonality beyond the glory of battle and desire to be the top dog(s). On everything else... they disagree as much as the Fire Mandrills do between Kindraas.

If getting to the Inner Sphere is your goal, the Blood Spirits would probably be a more stalwart ally to the Ice Hellions than the Hell's Horses turned out to be but I suspect that Blood Spirits would probably get as torn apart as the Ice Hellions did. Going with the Snow Ravens might be another option but it's unlikey that'd work out much better either - I get the distinct impression the Snow Ravens wanted to be as far from the rest of the Clans as they could get. The Blood Spirits are probably best off going it alone, pulling out much the same way the Goliath Scorpion and departing to parts unknown. But I could see possible scenarios for both - have the Blood Spirits come along somehow with the Hell's Horses and Ice Hellions might have kept the Hell's Horses a tad bit more "honest". The Jade Falcon and Wolves might not actually be able to deal with three Clans plowing into their backside.

3a) The Absorption War

Allot of what came later came from this event.

First let's say it never happened. Nobody finds out the Burrocks having ties to the Dark Caste. That leaves you with the Star Adders in much less of a position to dominate the Homeworld Clans later. For all their strength, it's the Burrock Absorption that gave the means to actually use it. It'll mean the WoR or it's equivalent will be an entirely different conflict but it also means that the Blood Spirits are far more intact - at least if they don't have a serious conflict with the Burrocks on their own, something entirely possible.

Second, the war still happens but the Blood Spirits for whatever reason don't get involved. The possibility exists for either the Burrocks put off either the Absorpton or the Star Adders or the Absorption is successful with less or greater damage than canon. If the Burrocks put off the Absorption, the Burrocks may have a fresh hatred for the Star Adders and a new round of inter-Clan conflict kicks off as Clans sense the weakness of either/both the Burrocks and Star Adders - heck, that gives you a pretty good starting point for a conflict just as devastating as the WoR. The other side of it is the Star Adders either end up weaker or stronger than canon, but without the underlining enmity with the Blood Spirits. If they're weaker that means the Burrocks put up a stronger fight than canon, and if they're stronger, it's the result of the tendency for less bloody trials that were occurring before the Blood Spirits intervened. It's not all good news for the Blood Spirits, but a more powerful Star Adders means there's more of an intact Burrocks that could potentially split like the WoR but bigger.  Still not being on the Star Adders radar, means a more nuanced relationship could happen. The Blood Spirits may well still be pretty upset with the Star Adders but it could turn out differently.

Third, against all canon - the Blood Spirits or another Clan gets the nod to Absorb the Burrocks. For the Blood Spirits, this is a bloodletting that could break the Clan just about as much as it could save it. It'd be end up as a massacre, for the Burrocks wouldn't be expecting quite the assault force that'd come for it and while the in the end the Blood Spirits may win it might just weaken it fatally. Out of the other Homeworld Clans the Hell's Horses or Ice Hellions may have had a shot, but with it comes enmity with the Blood Spirits.

I've always wondered why the Burrocks didn't sell out the Cloud Cobras when the charges against the Burrocks were levied. Surely they could have at least dragged in the Cloud Cobras in with what they knew was going on, in the Tanite system. Unless of course the Dark Caste they were being connected to weren't those on the Tanite worlds or the Star Adders kept that tidbit as leverage on the Cloud Cobras to vote their way, but the Burrocks didn't have to keep mum they already were screwed.

Fourth, the war happens as in canon. Well, you done goofed and I honestly see very little way out of the Blood Spirits pulling out of the death spiral they lock in with the Star Adders as is. It isn't just the Star Adders mind you - the Steel Vipers, Cloud Cobras and other Clans all play their part in grinding down the Blood Spirits at various points. Potentially if you keep losses lighter, particularly at the end of the Steel Viper Annihilation the Blood Spirits wouldn't be so easily whapped on but things are pretty bleak for Blood Spirits.

3b) The OTHER Absorption War

Alternatively, you could have the Blood Spirits launch attacks on other targets before/after the Absorption War(that they don't get involved in). The Fire Mandrills Kindraa are low hanging fruit - picking the right one means you could in theory nab a warship or two without a full Fire Mandrill response before it's too late. You could have a Crusader oriented Kindraa want to be a bigger fish in a Clan where if it gets absorbed the chance of it getting into the Invasion is allot better that arranges it's bidding with the Blood Spirits. Done right you could fatally weaken the Fire Mandrills and make the case to Absorb the rest. That's what we did with my home campaign. Absorbing them gives you not only the possibility of a warship gain but also grabbing the Fire Mandrills shipyard.

A harder target but still feasible is the Ice Hellions - they're all over the place in the 3050-3060 era and they can't be strong everywhere - the Blood Spirits could land a force capable of steamrolling the Ice Hellions and make off with whatever they want, at least once - doubtful they could manage it too often but it could work. Goliath Scorpions and Cloud Cobras are also tempting targets but it's basically going to be like a feeding frenzy - you might get a bite in, but you might get bit too.

Now references in the early Clan books such as Invading Clans had it that the Clans had a moratorium on inter-Clan conflict during the Invasion but the Ice Hellions managed to have /their/ war in that time period so there's something workable there. If the Ice Hellion could pop the Invaders (and they did) for territory and resources, so could the Blood Spirits with their larger and more concentrated forces. Imagine a raid on the Smoke Jaguars -BEFORE- Operation Bulldog that nets the Blood Spirits Protomech technology and they keep mum on having it, while the Smoke Jaguars Scientists have to explain to their Khan what they just lost!

2) Improve Flexibility

Probably the thing going most against the grain for Blood Spirit players is tossing aside the strict Cluster arrangement that the Clan has stuck to thick or thin. Protomechs give you an opportunity to break it, but if you go with canon they simply switch out Mechs and Protomechs on a point per point basis which is a milquetoast change and it doesn't start to happen until 3060.

The Blood Spirits have potentially a large pool of trained warriors if it relaxes standards in the same vein other Clans that have reserves like the Diamond Sharks or Cloud Cobras and Nova Cats maintain - the difference is, that the other Clans use retired, older warriors to fill up their reserves and the Blood Spirits would be tapping their lower but marginally trained lower Castes - a pretty big break in normal Clan tradition but workable as any of the other "Reserve" methods. They'd also have a larger pool of recruits if they cut back on the brutality of their training but that tradition would be enormously difficult to undertake. I'd suggest both methods. You could create something akin to the Ice Hellions Flurries with Warrior-izing your lower caste "militia". As possible creating another training facility on your colonies with "Relaxed" standards compared to your regular training grounds. That still means you have to get more equipment to equip both, and those "Relaxed" method warriors aren't going to show up for a decade and a half at the very least but it's possible.

Protomechs figured heavily in my home campaign's development with the Clan swinging from the ultra conservative to being too loose to somewhere inbetween towards the end when I reigned in my players. But in any campaign, especially after the Great Refusal Protomechs are a bread and butter unit for the Blood Spirits. It's too bad that they didn't get to really run with the tech and field Protos that didn't suck (see most Protos) before they got killed. But thems the breaks but it gives you an opportunity to do some interesting stuff if you want to. Allot of people are doubtful of Protos but my experience is they can work very well so long as you recognize their limitations and play to their strengths. You've definitely got to be flexible with them - I notice quite a few people treat them like elementals and slap the same units together in the same point/star but I prefer a 3/2 or a 2/2/1 spread where you treat a point as a mini-mech star built together to accomplish a specific mission or two.

Equipment wise, one of the speculations I see and share with other peeps here is the desire for a cheap BA suit that you could equip "non-Elementals" with. It'd be an ideal way of making use of those "militia" but conventional infantry could be made to be useful too.

Now, assuming one could build Warships (either through the Snow Raven Mobile Repair/Construction Yard or Fire Mandrill yard I presented prior to this or some other option) - the Blood Spirits aren't going to be able to throw out allot of new construction Snow Raven style so they have to focus on a practical, heavily protected design. I'd say a Heavy Destroyer based on the Lola III but this where you have to figure out what you want on your own. As to restoring ships from the caches - IIRC, there was a pretty big cache that either the Fire Mandrills or society opened up, that was a Fire Mandrill cache that had a few ships in it but most weren't salvageable. Mostly those "caches" were introduced so ships that were introduced in other products after 3057 TRO/Clan FMs could be parceled out to the Clans.

1) Karianna Schmitt

Fridge her (meaning kill her and use her death to inspire her successor/Clan)and the earlier the better. While Ghostbear redeemed her a little bit in WoR, her portrayal in the Great Refusal paints her as fanatic oblivious/stupid in the same light that Stackpole did with both Romano Liao and Myndo Waterly during the Clan Invasion and Operation Scorpion respectively. While possibly a greatly skilled warrior, the second coming of Colleen Schmitt was a narrow minded, peevish twit that got the Blood Spirits smashed in the Absorption War, created the perpetual enmity with the Star Adders and got the Blood Spirits heaviest warship stupidly killed. That doesn't even get into the Bloodhouse corruption stuff or other idiocies you can dig up in CC FM or WoR. Replace her with someone else, ANYONE else and you immediately can change the tenor of the Blood Spirits - the Clan will follow where the Khan leads. There might be a few challenges off the bat, but the should the new Khan win those, the Clan nature as a "follow the leader" will be cemented.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 30 January 2017, 17:00:41
Very nice write up of ideas. I once thought that leaving the Homeworlds would have been the best option but I was looking at the Blood Spirits moving into the Rim Collection area or to Hunters Paradise or even New St. Andrews. Of them all the Rim Collection is a best choice but is right on the border with a Inner Sphere state while Hunters Paradise has the issue of Megafauna but was large on resources and had a Star League era space station that could be rehabbed. New St. Andrews isn't a high rescources world but has the advantage of being very far out of the way and could probably be developed in secret for decades.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Terminax on 30 January 2017, 18:21:20
My group ultimately ended taking over the Coreward Confederation from ISP3 but things weren't fully settled before we wrapped up the campaign. It was ideal with multiple worlds (unfortunately not mapped in canon) and a primitive shipyard and remote enough from the Inner Sphere and Clan Homeworlds to allow them time to rebuild and refocus. It's in the current Blood Spirit thread, in older posts going back a fair ways and might stretch into the previous thread.

In any case, it's just a pile of ideas - feel free to use them or not, certainly don't have to agree with my viewpoint(s). There's lots of ways to work things.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 30 January 2017, 18:38:58
My group ultimately ended taking over the Coreward Confederation from ISP3 but things weren't fully settled before we wrapped up the campaign. It was ideal with multiple worlds (unfortunately not mapped in canon) and a primitive shipyard and remote enough from the Inner Sphere and Clan Homeworlds to allow them time to rebuild and refocus. It's in the current Blood Spirit thread, in older posts going back a fair ways and might stretch into the previous thread.

In any case, it's just a pile of ideas - feel free to use them or not, certainly don't have to agree with my viewpoint(s). There's lots of ways to work things.

Its discussions like these that add depth not only to your game but also to others games as well as they use your ideas to flesh out there campaigns.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Warship on 10 February 2017, 11:34:53
You run into the issue that PWS's weren't even a thought yet after the Burrock Absorbtion, and the group that did develop the idea was the WoB during the Jihad. If they did go the nuke-em-all route I think it would have been in use with aerospace fighters launching warheads at warships in mass numbers. Have a real Macross Missile Massacre over York. Lot cheaper in construction as aerospace fighters are just plain cheap in comparison to dropships much less PWS's and you can make a whole lot more of them too. And any Clan can produce nuclear warheads its just that there not a normal weapon of war for the Clans. I could see the Blood Spirits using them to defend York though and even striking at Star Adder warships and jumpships elsewhere with unmarked fighters.

Hmm, fighters deploying nukes.  That would be cheaper.  Of course, now I am wondering what if they loaded nukes onto their extant warship fleet.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 10 February 2017, 11:50:06
Hmm, fighters deploying nukes.  That would be cheaper.  Of course, now I am wondering what if they loaded nukes onto their extant warship fleet.

Not considered honorable warfare in the times of the Clans. A nuke is such a messy weapon that doesn't show off a warriors skill and elan. Yes, they probably all have them in storage but loaded on there warships probably not. But if they wanted they could easily do so. Nukes on fighters I could see being justified with the warriors bidding on there use before hand. "I bid one nuke and a small laser!"
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 10 February 2017, 14:23:46
Nothing beats the Small Laser of Doom ...
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 13 February 2017, 10:24:28
I am looking for the Blood Kite of the skies to fill out my Spirit ASF a current contender is:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gotha

Other suggestions welcome
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 13 February 2017, 12:56:41
The Gotha is nearly perfect as a second line ASF. That's the reason it is already taken for my Star Adder force. ;)
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 14 February 2017, 21:45:16
Chippewa IIC

Close enough to the Blood Kite.

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 15 February 2017, 15:23:00
I can see the Blood Spirits having lots of Tyre Aerospace fighters.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 15 February 2017, 20:17:00
I ordered both the Chippewa and the tyre. Now to find the time to paint them...
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 07 March 2017, 10:03:19
While re reading twilight of the clans I noted that in the first naval battle of huntress a soviet soyuz crusier of the jags was knocked out of commishion but not destroyed. What was its name and what happened to its hulk?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 07 March 2017, 14:22:19
While re reading twilight of the clans I noted that in the first naval battle of huntress a soviet soyuz crusier of the jags was knocked out of commishion but not destroyed. What was its name and what happened to its hulk?

Pouncing Fury. I think the SLDF destroyed it after the battle.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 07 March 2017, 14:45:39
Not in MY timeline! : )
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 07 March 2017, 14:53:13
Not in MY timeline! : )

You asked, I answered. Have you considered the Canon Warship List?
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1791.0
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 07 March 2017, 16:29:49
Stormlion THANK you for that great resource!

I am of course kidding with you. But to give context to my statement - I have been kicking around a campaign idea for years that would have the Spirits who DID NOT get wounded by jumping into the Burrock absorption and instead jump into the Battle for Huntress.

I asked about the scuttled Soyez cruiser because my campaign would have the Spirits seeking to scoop up as much Warship assets as they could
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 08 March 2017, 09:51:28
Battle Taxis for elementals to board ships,  a few questions:

•   There is no model for them right?
o   Suggestions on counts as model?
•   Any clans specific types?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 11 October 2018, 20:15:21
Stormlion THANK you for that great resource!

I am of course kidding with you. But to give context to my statement - I have been kicking around a campaign idea for years that would have the Spirits who DID NOT get wounded by jumping into the Burrock absorption and instead jump into the Battle for Huntress.

I asked about the scuttled Soyez cruiser because my campaign would have the Spirits seeking to scoop up as much Warship assets as they could

Circling back to this as my son is now old enough to attempt a game. Going with the idea that the blood spirits scramble their fleet to “ help” the jags again so to recap the spirits are bringing their original flagship say a McKenna or farrgut and a kimagure ( hey a guy can dream!) if the spirits knocked out and or capture serpent warships they get to keep them as isorla right?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 12 October 2018, 15:58:06
McKenna?  Fairyguts (dismantled btw)?  both are more warship than the Spirits have at the time.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 12 October 2018, 23:04:15
McKenna?  Fairyguts (dismantled btw)?  both are more warship than the Spirits have at the time.

I am using the idea that their unknown flagship was either of those
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 13 October 2018, 09:25:18
Both of those are really way way more than a Black Lion could handle, even were they in somewhat poor condition - a Black Lion was what canonically destroyed the Spirit Flagship.  And yes, the last canon Farragut was dismantled in 2766.  I would suggest using either a Cameron, Liberator, or Sovetskii Soyuz as their flagship, with probably a destroyer-sized warship as the last, 6th warship (any of them or any of the corvettes would work).  If I were to pick one, I'd probably opt for a Liberator, though it has some significant armor flaws, ignoring them it's the most well rounded of the suggestions.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 13 October 2018, 09:41:12
Both of those are really way way more than a Black Lion could handle, even were they in somewhat poor condition - a Black Lion was what canonically destroyed the Spirit Flagship.  And yes, the last canon Farragut was dismantled in 2766.  I would suggest using either a Cameron, Liberator, or Sovetskii Soyuz as their flagship, with probably a destroyer-sized warship as the last, 6th warship (any of them or any of the corvettes would work).  If I were to pick one, I'd probably opt for a Liberator, though it has some significant armor flaws, ignoring them it's the most well rounded of the suggestions.

A number of people have correctly pointed out that the black lion which took out the carmine Justice should have struggled to do so. I am curious if once the spirits jumped in the burrocks and adders threw a lot of fire power at it and if was the lion who should simply finished it
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Ruger on 13 October 2018, 10:21:43
Both of those are really way way more than a Black Lion could handle, even were they in somewhat poor condition - a Black Lion was what canonically destroyed the Spirit Flagship.   

Then again, the Smoke Jaguars lost a McKenna to a Du Shi Wang...granted, Clan Mongoose had increased the Quicksilver Mongoose's firepower and heat dissappation...but it was still far inferior to its enemy (of course, we have no real idea how much help they had in that battle either)...

Ruger
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Easy on 13 October 2018, 10:49:59
cleanup
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 15 October 2018, 09:00:42
Then again, the Smoke Jaguars lost a McKenna to a Du Shi Wang...granted, Clan Mongoose had increased the Quicksilver Mongoose's firepower and heat dissappation...but it was still far inferior to its enemy (of course, we have no real idea how much help they had in that battle either)...

Ruger

[Yoda] You will. [/Yoda]
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 15 October 2018, 09:49:38
Did warship construction essentially halt until the gear up to the invasion? Was the mongoose absportion the biggest space battle in the home worlds until the burrocks got absorbed?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 October 2018, 10:09:16
You want big . . . especially with the Spirit's initial colonization push . . . go with a Monsoon.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 15 October 2018, 10:20:33
Did warship construction essentially halt until the gear up to the invasion?

No, there were a few new classes introduced prior to the 31st century.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 October 2018, 11:04:24
To expand on my earlier answer . . .

It would, IMO, have made sense for the early Spirits to claim a Monsoon out of the mothball fleets if any survived.  They went into colonization in a big way in the early era, and its collars along with the huge cargo capacity would give a great start to any new Spirit colonies.  It would not have been a highly sought after ship like the latest in Star League Navy designs such as the McKenna or Avatar.  It should have very good command facilities for operating a fleet or even coordinating planet-side actions.  Finally, it should already have a LF Battery, which will be a strategic asset.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: AlphaMirage on 15 October 2018, 11:22:36
Did warship construction essentially halt until the gear up to the invasion? Was the mongoose absportion the biggest space battle in the home worlds until the burrocks got absorbed?

With so many vessels in mothballs and with such a "small" sector of space to work in I don't see why the Clans would need more Warships.  The Raven's Lum Shipyards probably were just busy keeping Jumpships in good repair in exchange for additional barter material from all the clans.  I doubt most of the Warships besides those of the Ravens (and one of the Fire Mandrill Kindraa I believe lived on one) were deployed frequently outside their capital systems. 

Doesn't really keep with the make no waste philosophy of the Clans if they were frequently in combat (though were always likely ready for it due to paranoia).
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 October 2018, 11:35:35
If you look at the ships that were built, most were task specific . . . the Nightlord was designed by the 'pros' and unlike the SL ships could drop mechs directly to the planet.  The Fredasa?  Small patrol ship better than the Vincent . . . might have been used to explore since it would not been as expensive to operate on the fringes- I think it had a DS while SL corvettes lacked?  The Conquerer & Leviathan had been planned once the return started being discussed but not built until after the invasion.  The other ships we know were new designs were mothballed- I am willing to bet they are going to have problems rookie designers will have made- quirks like, Difficult to Maintain, Uncomfortable Quarters, or other of the quirks having to do with designs.  Think of some of the problems the IS had when designing ships- like the Impavido which is bad for crews.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 15 October 2018, 13:01:40
To expand on my earlier answer . . .

It would, IMO, have made sense for the early Spirits to claim a Monsoon out of the mothball fleets if any survived.  They went into colonization in a big way in the early era, and its collars along with the huge cargo capacity would give a great start to any new Spirit colonies.  It would not have been a highly sought after ship like the latest in Star League Navy designs such as the McKenna or Avatar.  It should have very good command facilities for operating a fleet or even coordinating planet-side actions.  Finally, it should already have a LF Battery, which will be a strategic asset.


Thanks for adding context on why you would choose a monsoon that’s very interesting. Besides the not so small notion that they were taken or all destroyed wouldn’t a Texas or Farragut meet or exceed the monsoon?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 October 2018, 14:33:30
I am not in a position to look at the stats at the moment, but I do not know if their cargo space is as large.  I also do not think the Texas were set up as flagships to the same degree as Monsoons.  Finally, you also want to look at a ship that can be defeated by whatever took out their flagship- after all Clan Mongoose, a aerospace Clan, had a Capellan ship as their flagship . . . and the Wolves have a SoySov, so it does not have to be a great ship lol.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 15 October 2018, 16:34:01
and the Wolves have a SoySov, so it does not have to be a great ship lol.

More surprising, when you consider that the Wolves also had access to a McKenna and a Texas at the same time.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Ruger on 15 October 2018, 17:01:03
More surprising, when you consider that the Wolves also had access to a McKenna and a Texas at the same time.

And in 3145, their flagship was said to be CWS Rogue, a Congress-class frigate...smallest of their 5 WarShips...

Ruger
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 21 October 2018, 10:05:26
The massive losses of the Wars of Reaving may start a construction of new ship classes among the Home Clans.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 21 October 2018, 10:45:21
Or they could look into the Old Naval caches... There might be some left over from Pentagon Wars, mothballed or what not.

There's still that Jade Falcon design, one of their first, without stats... I think a light class Frigate?

Maybe they'll use more jumpers but with safecon? And use naval stations at each end? Who knows... Brent might  ::)! He knows everything... so does Ray! (sometimes)

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 21 October 2018, 11:02:45
As far as i know when the homeworlds lost contact to the IS they knew the IS was building new warships and knew the way to the homeworlds. It would be crazy not to build something for protection against that tainted barbarians.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 21 October 2018, 11:16:43
Then my next question should be, who has a working yard? And can you trust them enough to repair yours and finally, would they share new builds and stuff in the face of a second invasion? Would you do the same if they came knocking??

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 21 October 2018, 11:49:40
We don't know how much of a leading force the Star Adders will be and if they can establish something like team work within the remaining clans. There are enough damaged yards around the homeworlds and enough time to rebuild sufficient output.

We know that the Ravens build warships for other clans in the past. And that in time of constant trials and competition. Why not similar deals after the WoR? It is unlikely that one clan alone will have the resources to do so soon. And it is more unlikely that the other clans will sit back and watch while one clan in their mid will build new warships alone.
But they all have to realize that they are in need of new warships.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 21 October 2018, 19:01:30
Put it this way,

I play Stone Lions. I know I have a York-class DD/CV, and two Lola III-clan light DDs. I also have a limited number of Jumpers, were I to rely on Odyssey, Comitatus, Hunter and any old Star League version still around... I have no choice to field anything else. But if we were to meet on the ground, that's a different matter.

So again, jumpers with safecon sounds more appropriate, quiaff?

TT

Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 22 October 2018, 00:43:58
So again, jumpers with safecon sounds more appropriate, quiaff?

Neg - as you know the tainted IS surats will never grant you safecon. And more so, when you have to defend your homeworld, when they come with their own warships. Thats the scenario the homeworlds have to prepare to.

If the IS hadn't received the homeworld navigation route, the homeworlds would be safe and the clans could play with each other (ignoring the fact, that a IS ship once alrady stumbled over the homeworlds).
If the homeworld clans know that the IS is in bad shape and the warlords have other problems than to hunt claners in the homeworlds, it might be different. But as far as i understand the homeworlds cut contact much earlier.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 22 October 2018, 01:11:22
I was referring to Home World tactics, IF the IS does come a-knocking... I believe a unified HW clan strike would be available... capturing any WS as fast as can be... Most likely it'll be IS Clans doing the invading to bring back their " ancestral " homes... not House led. Though RAF would seem the most prudent...

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 22 October 2018, 05:50:43
Then my next question should be, who has a working yard? And can you trust them enough to repair yours and finally, would they share new builds and stuff in the face of a second invasion? Would you do the same if they came knocking??

TT

The Coyotes do have a working Naval Yard (Kirin Yards) for producing Jumpships.
Further we know that the Adders did capture the gigantic Leviathan Prime Yard from the Vipers, dismantled it and were busily working to rebuild it in their Home System Hoard. The Priori Yards were reported as being damaged in the WoR but a have been under repair since.

So IMHO it is very likely that the Home Clans do have capabilities to build new warships in future.

I think there can be even some mothballed warships left, so TPTB could use them for new Clantech refits, improving them.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 October 2018, 09:05:31
I think there can be even some mothballed warships left, so TPTB could use them for new Clantech refits, improving them.

Monsoon IIC!
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 23 October 2018, 17:58:59
Monsoon IIC!

Lots of monsoon love! I need to look into this ship..,
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 23 October 2018, 18:23:47
 Oops prob In the wrong thread!


 To boost your fleet numbers we also have the example of what the ravens did the scorpions during the wars of reaving. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sagitta

Now do we think that this was a sign of the crazy times or something that a small but elite clan like the mandrills or spirits could have tried?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 25 October 2018, 06:28:18
Salvage from destroyed and disabled ships could be another source.

If possible you could even rapair ships and get them back in use.
If not, you could salvage any parts which can be used or even recycled. Maybe the Clans could construct unique "Frankenstein" ships, made of parts taken from different warship types.

At least, given the highly sophisticated Level of Recycling the Clans possess, I think they could reuse almost all what they salvage from the naval battlefields of the WoR.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 25 October 2018, 08:40:51
Salvage from destroyed and disabled ships could be another source.

If possible you could even rapair ships and get them back in use.
If not, you could salvage any parts which can be used or even recycled. Maybe the Clans could construct unique "Frankenstein" ships, made of parts taken from different warship types.

At least, given the highly sophisticated Level of Recycling the Clans possess, I think they could reuse almost all what they salvage from the naval battlefields of the WoR.

Good points!

With regards to building up your cadre of ship captains is it easier to trial for a respected captain or the actual heritage?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 25 October 2018, 09:25:29
Eh . . . the Ravens are the only ones who IIRC separate out the Aero bloodnames into warship specialists.  Otherwise you are also looking at the Cobras being capable . . . good luck trying to Trial either one for a respected naval commander.  For the Spirits, due to current (Arcadia DS) and past (warships for mechs) cooperation it might be possible to take a aero ristar and send them to train with/against the Ravens.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 25 October 2018, 11:19:47
If they follow old SLDF tactics you don't need finesse and skill as long as you have numbers.
Even in time when the clans hadn't knowledge about declined IS naval warfare abilities their own naval personal wasn't trained that hard. At least i'm not aware of elite or veteran rank of naval crews.
So i assume they just follow old doctrine and use whatever is available to crew their ships.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 25 October 2018, 12:35:05
Ravens had some . . . but I think they had some doctrinal problems with getting Vet let alone Elite crew . . . after all, the lower castes who run the ship are just cogs- another piece of the machine to be replaced when needed.  So would a Clan warship commander spend the time on crew drills?  Reactor shut downs, ship board fires, reloading drills, battlestation drills, damage control, etc?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Robroy on 25 October 2018, 13:24:32
He would if he wanted his ship to survive a battle.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 25 October 2018, 14:52:15
But for most of Clan history they did not fight any Trial with anything approaching battle conditions.  They fought until X amount of hits on armor, maybe hull breach or some other artificial condition designed to test skill of the CO while maintaining the hard to replace asset.  The ONLY times they really fought as warships would have been during Op Klondike and it really did not come up again until the Jags faced the Second League . . . and then, did the Clans learn from what happened to Jaguars- and in one case Bear- warships?  HIGHLY unlikely since, well its the Jags they are obvious failures since they let the Inner Sphere defeat them- besides who was present except maybe Falcons on Huntress to watch?

So yeah, the Ravens and other Clans would have Star League Defense Force FM 6-66, 'How to Warship' and know that they need so many drills a week/month/year to check the boxes . . . but a couple of things.  First, the warriors in command of the ship, piloting/nav, tactical . . . are they really going to care about them outside of 'shooting' for due diligence?  We have plenty of fluff bits of Star Colonels and Galaxy Commanders who advanced on their tactical prowess who were hopeless in leading let alone supporting their clusters- clueless at logistics, reading a strategic map, etc.  "I do not care about anything but firing my Heavy NPPCs, do what you need to feel comfortable Tech Zec, but I want those HNPPCs firing when I press the big red button or you will be out the airlock!"

Second, are they going to try to keep the crews together to avoid constant transfers that hurt team cohesiveness?  does the saKhan (who is in charge of the touman's operations) understand the need to transfer engineering department heads to spread around experience- do they even recognize (or have a deputy/staff) qualified personnel?  especially when they are likely a Mechwarrior or Elemental, and most likely totally unfamiliar with warship operations?

Third, does any warrior officer or their technical subordinate have experience in say damage control, fighting ship fires in zero-g?  MAYBE some in accidents, but during that time any knowledge of damage control operations has long since lapsed . . . all those pros from the Aramis wars were beached along with a lot of other Star League personnel.  They died during the Exodus civil wars or were shuffled off by the proto-Clans and it appears the Ravens were the only ones who ended up with anyone who had a clue about ship operations.  And the Clans really had no period where they really gained any warship combat experience- instead playing simulator battles or tag with weapon systems.

Finally, 'if he wanted his ship to survive a battle' assumes they have institutional knowledge . . . and a manual that is written with a shared history/viewpoint is not going to be completely understood by someone with a dramatically different view as the Clan culture would generate.  The example I know best is look at the artillery topics, I am willing to bet some people scratch their heads over things that Charlie 6 & I have discussed as doctrine even when we have taken time to explain to laymen.  Because from our personal history and viewpoint there are concepts we take for granted (think of any jargon you know as your job)- TOT, hip shoot, masking terrain, danger close, back blast, safety T, and others.  He was a Marine and I was Army but we were both artillery and could discuss those concepts.  If we had a Brit artilleryman, they would be able to drop into the conversation and understand even with the larger cultural background gap.  Not sure if a Russian or Chinese military individual would get the jargon but they would understand the concepts.  But if I were to talk to one of Ghengis mounted warriors, he would be clueless . . . heck, I could talk to a Navy ASW type and even though we both used NATO equipment they are not going to understand all the unspoken information.

So while the Clan warship commander may have a perfectly preserved set of manuals and even simulator programs in their warship memory banks, and they use a Star League built ship & equipment . . . they are not going to understand the underlying meaning in any of the material they inherited.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Robroy on 25 October 2018, 18:13:30
I get where you are coming from. A am Navy myself, damage control / repair. I am saying I can not picture even the Clans neglecting damage control drills. Accidents happen. Small craft botched landing, hope smash and crash crew gets it under control fast. Heck, with some of the light armor on some SLDF ships I would be worried about a micro meteor thresholding. My ship never got hit by anything but I lost count the fires I fought. Things are going to go wrong even when not in combat, and the first time it does and that trueborn is faced with the fact that a trial of grievance will not save him from sucking vacuum, he is going to really hope the crew know what they are doing.

Like I used to start my damage control class. You have to put out the fire and stop the flooding, the alternative is seeing how long you can tread water.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 25 October 2018, 23:17:04
Yeah, the signs & notices on BB-35 from WWII were interesting in that regard.

I just do not think they are going to care enough to get it right.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 26 October 2018, 08:47:25
As i see clan life it is far more space born than that of regular IS military. There is much more interstellar traffic within the homeworlds than in the IS. That said i can't believe the crews do not know how to handle a ship.

But regular daily business is not large scale naval combat. There is a difference between a dropship with ASF fighting through a ASF defense screen and warship flotillas fighting each other.

The clans of the old days are much limited to ground combat. But latest with the WoR they had their share on naval battles. And they know that the IS can build new warships and know to use them, too. I don't see the clans ignoring that fact. They have to look for ways to increase their fleets and train their crews accordingly.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Tegyrius on 26 October 2018, 17:38:44
Like I used to start my damage control class. You have to put out the fire and stop the flooding, the alternative is seeing how long you can tread water.

All bleeding, fires, and flooding will eventually stop on their own.  It's just that you may not like the end state...
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Robroy on 27 October 2018, 10:04:53
True. The point is not to let it get to that point. There is a very different mind set between Navy and Army, not bad, just different. I asked a friend of mine awhile back, who was Army infantry, about the then current army tag line "an army of one". Apparently the Army is very individually focused, you are responsible for your weapon, your armor. In the Navy it is very team oriented, the ship is the crew's weapon, the armor, and, well everthing. The ship's mission came first before anything else.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 27 October 2018, 10:52:44
True. The point is not to let it get to that point. There is a very different mind set between Navy and Army, not bad, just different. I asked a friend of mine awhile back, who was Army infantry, about the then current army tag line "an army of one". Apparently the Army is very individually focused, you are responsible for your weapon, your armor. In the Navy it is very team oriented, the ship is the crew's weapon, the armor, and, well everthing. The ship's mission came first before anything else.


Interesting and culturally that just does not mesh well with most clans mindset...
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 27 October 2018, 10:58:48
Oops prob In the wrong thread!


 To boost your fleet numbers we also have the example of what the ravens did the scorpions during the wars of reaving. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sagitta

Now do we think that this was a sign of the crazy times or something that a small but elite clan like the mandrills or spirits could have tried?

Would this have been a viable option before the Wars of reaving?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Robroy on 27 October 2018, 11:35:43

Interesting and culturally that just does not mesh well with most clans mindset...

Generally speaking, yes. Individually, it can vary by clan IMHO, the Ravens being at one end of the scale, then there are some clans that barely have a warship fleet of devote the bare minimum to maintain it. Something to take into account when determining crew quality.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 27 October 2018, 12:53:57
Getting back to the OP, I have not seen the Comitatus mentioned.  Before they start adopting pocket warships, the Comitatus is about as close to a warship (really a carrier) as the Clans got without actually building a new warship.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Comitatus

The Comitatus has a thick hide for a jumpship, a substantial anti-fighter weapons array, and carries 20 fighters and five small craft internally.  Throw a Titan-C on its single dropship collar, and a Comitatus can project 50 fighters and five NL-42s (or other boarding craft) and their 50 elemental marines.

No naval-grade weapons and the lack of a system drive means it's best used defensively.  But if fully loaded, a Comitatus and a Titan are a substantial threat to many warships.  Double them, and most warships don't stand much of a chance.

For the Blood Spirits, the question is whether they can field that many fighters.  But if they can, getting some Comitati in trade with the Falcons or through trials is probably the Spirits' best option for projecting naval-ish power or neutering incoming warships in Spirit systems.

One other thought is ground-based, naval-grade missiles and energy weapons.  If the concern is defending the Spirits' precious few planets against warship attack, that's also an option short of building/buying/stealing warships.

Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 October 2018, 15:45:18
With the way the Spirits are fluffed we never know what their ASF forces are like- since Nic never included them in his original cluster design!  Which is also one of those things that messes with the ground force count for the Spirits.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 28 October 2018, 16:28:43
TRO3067 entry for the Tyre indicates that the Spirits are low on OmniFighters. But is assume that is no surprise.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 29 October 2018, 10:35:28
Sure . . . Omnis, just like they are low on them in their touman.  But that does not say how many standard Clan ASF they have nor SL leftovers.  If you go by the indicators of their grounds forces, that is going to be the bulk of what their field for ASF.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 29 October 2018, 14:40:01
The Spirits probably didn't build there own aerospace fighters but got them through trade. Look to there allies production to make a good guess what they would have fielded besided Star League rebuilds.

Something to note for a possible Blood Spirit Flagship idea.  Unlike the Texas or the Liberator Classes which we can account for all the known ships there were several Mckenna's unaccounted for after the Amaris Coup. In fact 18 survived to go with Kerensky but we only have what? Eight known and named ships? Maybe one or two were stripped for parts after the war or lost in the Pentagon Wars but there is a good chance a few might be lost in Fleet Caches somewhere for Clan's that hadn't used them or were annihilated but never fielded them. I could also see Nicky K or even his father parking them as well as other ships in secret caches for a rainy day. In Nicky's case, not assigned to a Clan but as part of a General reserve.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 29 October 2018, 15:46:13
Eh, no matter the Clan all of them seemed to build the equipment for the four basic branches- mech, armor, BA and ASF.  Only top tier or specialists could build jumpships & dropships (hence why the Ravens & Spirits collaborated for the Arcadia) and especially warships.  So while the Spirits may not have designed their own fighters, or even rarely even variants, they did seem to build them after trading or Trial'ing for rights.  The fluff on the Tyre Michiko to me makes it sound like it was a conversion that was generally adapted- perhaps a change to the factory producing it as well.  The Tyre in general was 'a staple of all Clan secondline forces' due to the introduction of the Omnifighter, but that does not mean as much among the Spirits with their low Omni count overall.

The Issus, another standard ASF, is produced by one of the Spirits trade partners and is one of the 'most common second-line ASF' according to the fluff.  While not named among the top 3 users of the design it does fit with what appeals to the Spirits- SFE and ERLL . . . in fact, their unique Tyre mimics some of the layout of the Issus with the SSRM and 20/24 points of energy damage in the nose.

Another possibility was the Jag's Xerxes which spread to all the Clans after its introduction.  It again has a favorite weapon of the Spirits, the ERLL.  Same for another design the Jaguars gained was the Chippewa IIC (Xerxes uncle?) which had ERLL & LRMs, and aside from the TC and Artemis IV is something that fits the Spirits.

If the Sharks were selling them to the Spirits . . . I could see them liking the new Ammon.  Just not sure what the Sharks would have traded for it . . . protos?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 05 November 2018, 07:30:22
If the Sharks were selling them to the Spirits . . . I could see them liking the new Ammon.  Just not sure what the Sharks would have traded for it . . . protos?
Keeping the Star Adders distracted .. especially when the Sharks had to run for their life in the WoR, something you should have taken serious.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 05 November 2018, 08:45:04
The horses were noted for having a small fleet did they secure any more naval assets before they attacks the wolf OZ?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 05 November 2018, 09:11:19
They got a compact mobile shipyard (HH-1), built by the Ravens.

During the Ice Hellion Incursion they captured the York-class Pack Leader (now Stampede)
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 05 November 2018, 21:18:46
We got the Armageddon Potemkin, Bucephalus Congress, Stampede York, possible Sleipnir Cameron and one more I can't seem to find.

I do know they lost the three Lola III's to Zeta's Defense, aka Clan Stone Lion.

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 05 November 2018, 21:50:10
If your need was fast and cost effective shipping and raider defense would mass producing Congress”s be a way to go? As written they seem pretty great...
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Ruger on 05 November 2018, 21:55:03
We got the Armageddon Potemkin, Bucephalus Congress, Stampede York, possible Sleipnir Cameron and one more I can't seem to find.

I do know they lost the three Lola III's to Zeta's Defense, aka Clan Stone Lion.

TT

Last I heard, in 3145, Clan Hell's Horses is down to three WarShips...the Bucephalus, the Stampede and the Armageddon...

Ruger
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 06 November 2018, 20:42:47
When the burrocks were absorbed the mandrills captured some of their enclaves “ before control was fully established” could cached warships have been targeted in the sane way or would that be a no no?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 06 November 2018, 20:58:32
Burrock enclaves would have been more " outposts " than naval caches...

Think of Colonies and factory / mine cities.

More so than just a hull depot...

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 06 November 2018, 21:30:41
Burrock enclaves would have been more " outposts " than naval caches...

Think of Colonies and factory / mine cities.

More so than just a hull depot...

TT

Are a clans caches of warships common known ledge?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 06 November 2018, 21:49:20
Most were parked before the Pentagon Wars, some were removed by then, but most should still be there. Now after the Reavings, I wouldn't bet on anything salvageable to be put back into service without major reworking.

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 07 November 2018, 06:22:21
I'm betting poorer Clans without shipyards spent the centuries stripping parts from parked warships to keep there fleets operational. Lot easier to pull turrets from a parked ship then to bargain depot time from another Clan.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 07 November 2018, 09:06:37
I'm not aware of individual clans having naval caches. There were individual fleets and then the collective Clan cache.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 07 November 2018, 09:11:26
I'm not aware of individual clans having naval caches. There were individual fleets and then the collective Clan cache.

It is mentioned in WoR for Star Adders and Diamond Sharks, as far as I remember.

I'm betting poorer Clans without shipyards spent the centuries stripping parts from parked warships to keep there fleets operational. Lot easier to pull turrets from a parked ship then to bargain depot time from another Clan.
Possible alternative.

Do you know if it is possible to recycle KF-drives? At least some of the material (especially the Germanium)?

Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 07 November 2018, 10:39:29
I'm betting poorer Clans without shipyards spent the centuries stripping parts from parked warships to keep there fleets operational. Lot easier to pull turrets from a parked ship then to bargain depot time from another Clan.

Not really . . . its how the Ravens survived, they rented out their expertise.  Viper fluff talks about how they had a harder time with their fleet than nearly any other Clan due to Raven animosity, I think it gets hinted at in the Mercer DS fluff along with other places.

As Kit pointed out the caches, probably 6- one for each Pentagon world where the SLDF put ships and one for Strana Mechty where Nik put ships from his mini-exodus- were Clan wide property and MAYBE some of the stronger Clans had their own, which would be where things like Widowmaker/Mongoose/Burrock salvaged ships went (Wolf/Jag/Adder), merchant-powerful Clans put temporarily unneeded JS or transport CC ships (Sharks & Cats), or Clans that built their own warships parked them after mothballing their under performers (Wolf/Falcon/one other?).  IIRC the Conqueror fluff talks about how the project was started in the 3040s and then put on hold when the Ravens figured out they would have no part in the Invasion, it was restarted later in the 50s.

We have never found out what it takes to pull a ship out of the communal pool . . . which is interesting since we have (and will) never be given a exact run down what is in the caches though we know a few things (like a few more Kimagures were present).  We CAN say that whatever was present, there were no more really useable Yorks since the Clans built quite a few new ones after refitting all the viable hulls.  We can also say that whatever else is present, the Fredasa does a better job or was easier/better for some reason that anything that remained because the Fredasa was designed & built and put into production to spread among the Clans.  Whatever JS are still in the caches, building the new Hunter/Odyssey/Comitatus was deemed a better choice for the Clans that designed & produced them (GB/?/SR).

So does getting a ship out have to pass a Grand Council vote?  Which would ultimately lead to a Trial of Refusal involved the party that wants a specific warship against the Clans that do not want the ship given out?  Fight a Trial of Possession against the Elementals of the Ebon Keshik?  Wander out and take the ship?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Maingunnery on 07 November 2018, 13:03:44

Could it be like this?:

1. All ships started out in a General Naval Cache.
2. some are transferred to a Clan (Active duty).
3. When retired or too damaged, they are placed in that Clan own Naval Cache.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 07 November 2018, 13:14:48
Could it be like this?:

1. All ships started out in a General Naval Cache.
2. some are transferred to a Clan (Active duty).
3. When retired or too damaged, they are placed in that Clan own Naval Cache.

That’s how I thought it was as clan specific caches were noted many times
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 07 November 2018, 13:58:33
That’s how I thought it was as clan specific caches were noted many times

Could you cite a few?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 07 November 2018, 15:04:43
Honestly, I do not think its ever really specified though the Conqueror fluff might since I know work started in the 40s and then was halted.  We MIGHT get details with TRO Golden Century since the Falcon & Wolf new warships were put in mothballs for speculated reasons.  The other place that might have something about it would be the earlier cite about the Quicksilver Mongoose as recovered by the Jags.  Maybe some early fluff like WCSB talking about pulling Widowmaker ships out of mothballs for the invasion.

With that said, Clans like the Mandrills, Hellions and Spirits would not have a cache IMO because their assets are so small.  I would expect the Invading Clans plus Ravens, Coyotes & Adders . . . maybe the Cobras being a aero Clan would have their own caches.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 07 November 2018, 15:44:37
Do you know if it is possible to recycle KF-drives? At least some of the material (especially the Germanium)?

Great source of parts for jumpship construction. Probably could build several for the cost of scrapping one light warship.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 07 November 2018, 16:03:57
Could you cite a few?

No books in front of me but in the field manuals and source books like wars of reaving, numerous examples of clan so and so activating ships from “their” caches exist
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 08 November 2018, 20:08:34
What is the actually process for repairing a defeated but salvageable ship? Is a repair team sent to make it jump worthy and is it then taken to a ship yard for full repair?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: AlphaMirage on 09 November 2018, 06:39:10
What is the actually process for repairing a defeated but salvageable ship? Is a repair team sent to make it jump worthy and is it then taken to a ship yard for full repair?

That is how I would fluff it.  If it's not then you need to bring in a Yardship or mobile repair station to bring the core online or crack it open to rebuild it.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 09 November 2018, 09:20:48
No books in front of me but in the field manuals and source books like wars of reaving, numerous examples of clan so and so activating ships from “their” caches exist

I found one mention of the Snow Ravens finding a Brian Cache that included Warships in FM: Warden Clans but that was all outside of the WoR. The WoR has about a half dozen mentions, mainly about the Vipers.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 18 November 2018, 15:57:06
So through an odd set of events I will soon have three Farragut’s! I am
A clan player primarily blood spirits and horses. Any fluffy story suggestions on how to use this unexpected bounty?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 18 November 2018, 19:09:13
What's the rest of your fleet look like?

Got a TO&E... ?

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 18 November 2018, 19:50:20
What's the rest of your fleet look like?

Got a TO&E... ?

TT

So this all started with my obsession with the Carmine Justice the lost Flagship of the Blood Spirits. I love the story behind the plucky ( or crazy) small but fierce Blood Spirit Navy. You can read about them here:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naval_Reserve_(Clan_Blood_Spirit)

 The Justice was lost during the Burrock Absorption and its type has never been revealed. I considereds a number of different sweet designs for the role of my fleet flagship such as a Texas or Mckenna. Texas's have all been officially been accounted for and the Mckenna is almost too good... As someone who likes the Spirits precisely because they can do win while using second line or even SL era tech I started to warm to the idea of a Farragut. Its an old school bruiser of a ship . I have all the other ships of the Naval Reserve on hand and added a Kimagure as the 2nd lost ship.

So again I went from 0 to 3 Farrguts and I want to use them well!   
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 19 November 2018, 01:45:53
Take one of them aside of a Dreadnought and paint something for the reunification war.  ;)
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 19 November 2018, 22:37:38
Take one of them aside of a Dreadnought and paint something for the reunification war.  ;)

Alas I am only an invasion era guy
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 19 November 2018, 22:44:56
Olive Grey with some three white and black markings to show Invasion ship on the mid nose section!

Oh and a large clan logo in the middle of the fore section, with the W/B covering the lower half of logo...

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 20 November 2018, 15:02:25
Alas I am only an invasion era guy

Ask the periphery guys, they will name the reunification a kind of invasion.  ;)
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 05 December 2018, 14:23:41
IMHO given the need for interstellar patrolling to protect the Sphere of Interest of the HomeClans, what ship classes will the Adders build when they are capable to construct new warships?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 05 December 2018, 14:50:24
Depends on what they took intact . . . IIRC shortly before '67 the Ravens finished a York to be delivered to the Coyotes.  Who got the Fredasa yard from the Jaguars as well?

And who needs warships?  You are looking for a picket & patrol ship . . . a Comitatus JS with 20 ASF, 5 SC and a Drop collar, so a PWS or assault ship can be docked.

Of course if the shipyard building the Comis was taken from the Falcons in shape enough to be put back into operation.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 05 December 2018, 16:42:35
Definitely a ship that has HPG and can warn the homeworlds without the need to make a jump back.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 06 December 2018, 14:10:22
We have been told that the Adders did destroy a Cloud Cobra warship (Sovjetzky Soyus-Class) deep in the Periphery which wanted to attack the Inner Sphere. So I think they need something with firepower and endurance in battle.

Maybe a cruiser?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 06 December 2018, 14:35:00
More than likely they chased it down just like what happened to the Wolverines.

Bluntly there is no way they could picket enough space (not even getting into 3D, just going off BTU's 2D maps) to draw a line.  What they would likely do is picket the most likely approaches, G class stars that could support planets that would have air/water (like Serpent searched for) or fast recharging stars.

IMO a bigger question is if they took over Noveau Paris or somewhere like it as their naval station for the interdiction patrols.  Or is that system too close to the Taint.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 07 December 2018, 17:44:36
More than likely they chased it down just like what happened to the Wolverines.

Bluntly there is no way they could picket enough space (not even getting into 3D, just going off BTU's 2D maps) to draw a line.  What they would likely do is picket the most likely approaches, G class stars that could support planets that would have air/water (like Serpent searched for) or fast recharging stars.

IMO a bigger question is if they took over Noveau Paris or somewhere like it as their naval station for the interdiction patrols.  Or is that system too close to the Taint.

It would make sense to take over former Exodus Road worlds. There locations are known, fully mapped out and would have facilitys already in place. The fact though is that they would have to garrison invading clan holdings as well. The Wolves or Falcons would be more likely to go back using known routes to them rather than following another Clans.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 08 December 2018, 11:35:09
Those worlds could be declared as being "Tainted".

Maybe installing tripwires here n case of Spheroid incursions, but no bases due the "Taint".
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 09 December 2018, 11:49:53
Post wars of reaving in the HW who controls the bulk of ship repair and construction sites?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 09 December 2018, 17:54:15
iirc Star Adder
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 10 December 2018, 00:19:37
Question:

What's the most commonly transport Jumper of the clans?

Ex-SLDF

Scout
Invader
Explorer ( retcon'd 2703 built date, while no collar it did had a HPG variant )
Merchant
Tramp
Star Lord
Leviathan ( retcon'd 2468 built date, Primitive but has 8 collars )
Monolith

Clan
Hunter
Odyssey
Comitatus


Reason for asking, is most of the Ex-SLDF has to be really old and barley operational, only Merchant and Technical Caste would ever fix one up... Is better with a recycled newer one or an older model?

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 10 December 2018, 11:01:06
Missing I think the Liberty class?

The Clan designed JS are specialized and for the most part pickets with a single DS & maybe ASF.

To really figure it out you might have to go parse the phone books to extrapolate.  I know I have the WCSB fleet on a spreadsheet at home.  From my memory I will say the Star Lord might be the most common Clan touman JS.  What might be in the Clan merchant fleets is however a different story.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 10 December 2018, 14:51:22
Odyssey carries 4 collars... which would serve in a better role than a Star Lord / Tramp. Also the Odyssey has a LF battery, armed with better weapons and while heavier, doesn't have as much of the frilly stuff aka Passenger Quarters that a Trueborn would ever use.

BUT on the other hand, a Star Lord / Tramp carries 6 collars...

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 10 December 2018, 15:05:46
First IIRC the Odyssey was Jaguar created (or stolen considering their MO) and we do not know how widespread it became among the Clans- did we ever see it in fiction or SB cites?  Also, they were created to be exploring JS IIRC.

Second, some of the Clan Star Lords had LF batteries though we have not gotten a RS for them IIRC.

Finally, passenger quarters turned out to be useful for marines traveling the Exodus Road- which I do not remember any specifics about the JS Trent traveled the Exodus Road in but it had quarters for the Elemental leader.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 21 December 2018, 23:02:48
So through an odd set of events I will soon have three Farragut’s! I am
A clan player primarily blood spirits and horses. Any fluffy story suggestions on how to use this unexpected bounty?

How’s this for fun? The stone lions fleet consists of three destroyers only how about one of my extra Farraguts becomes their new flagship?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 21 December 2018, 23:38:39
How’s this for fun? The stone lions fleet consists of three four destroyers only how about one of my extra Farraguts becomes their new flagship?

One of them is a CV... York -class Brimestone!

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 22 December 2018, 08:05:30
One of them is a CV... York -class Brimestone!

TT

Nice!

If the lions did want a new flagship what would their options be? Are there post reaving wrecks left to fix up? Or would it have to a new build?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 22 December 2018, 14:29:26
That's an unknown...

I'm afraid to even speculate on this... too many chances / choices.

TT

In hindsight, I'd take an old upgraded Avatar aka Liberator as the classic flagship if one was to go this route. Needs something heavier and more powerful to lead destroyers into battle and all...

Strength thru diversity and all...

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 08 April 2019, 17:06:09
Post wars of reaving in the homeworlds who has the capacity to build new warships? Is it the cobras?

I know the adders have the numbers but do they have the construction yards?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 08 April 2019, 17:16:47
What Snewsom2997 suggests is what I was thinking.  The clans will certainly use warships if another clan is attempting to attain control over an active warship.  But mothballed warships are another story, they are of little use to most clans in the short term, and most clans have trouble looking to the long term when they would be useful.  This, plus the idea that the clans don't think much of their warship forces, indicates to me that many clans will use smaller forces.  Now, there may very well be a warship nearby which could spoil an attack - this would become more and more likely if the attacks are targeting the dedicated defending forces.


Circiling back to this FM crusader clans and FMU Updates states that the ravens we’re alarmed by the adders big jump in naval strength. To blunt their new found power and to avoid obvious blame could the ravens supported the spirits and their naval
Focused friends kindraa mick kreese?

The mandrills and spirits could do the dangerous work of trialing for adder ships and the ravens could offer generous technical assistance and repair work.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 08 April 2019, 18:32:19
We got a slip over Niles and Bearclaw does have those factories in orbit that could make the items needed to make a WS... best bet would be another Lola III or even another York, but it'll take a few years of production with only one slip...

Our best option is to produce more PWS like a Outpost version of the Polaris... maybe we have the plans for the Outpost Defender? But with Barracudas instead of more Arrow...

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 09 April 2019, 08:55:10
Post wars of reaving in the homeworlds who has the capacity to build new warships? Is it the cobras?

I know the adders have the numbers but do they have the construction yards?

No none of the Homies can build Warships as far as I know.  Some of them can repair existing warships, but none can build them. Even the Adders have no yards of their own. 

But that was many years ago, now.  I expect all of them will be building warships by this point.  But that's just my speculation. 
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 09 April 2019, 10:58:58
The Adders have secured the Leviathan Prime yard from the annihilated Steel Vipers and have being been in the process of moving this huge facility from the New Kent system to Hoard system.

We will have to wait and see if there are still old Inner Sphere warships left (maybe updating them) or if they will construct new designs.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 09 April 2019, 11:17:38
I was thinking the same thing as Gaiiten about new designs.  I would not be surprised at all to see new, never before seen designs when they do show back up. 

The Wars of Reaving were incredibly destructive, but they weren't quite to the lostech levels of the Succession Wars.  The Clans will take their tech base in a new direction.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 18 April 2019, 20:06:14
Goofy question if a khan got it into his or her head to sink a bunch of resources into a “ fleet of a thousand “ warships can the clan council veto that or can only a trial of grievance stop a Khan’s wishes?

To clarify I meant could anyone internally in the clan veto this
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 19 April 2019, 08:08:07
I don't think anyone could stop that outside of just taking their WarShips in trials, but it's not like any of the Clans had the resources to do such a thing. There would be even less to do that with if a Clan is sinking most of their resources into stuff that won't be done for years and they start running out of forces they could actually use in defending their stuff.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 April 2019, 09:40:24
For warship, jumpship and dropship fleets the Clans are living off the 'capital' of the Star League.  While they did make a few new dropships, jumpships and warships they did not even come close to building enough to completely replace what came with them let alone a significant portion of what the SLDF brought.  For example, the Leviathans, Nightlords, new build Yorks, Fredasas and the retired ships from the Golden Century are a drop in the bucket compared to the McKenna, Texas, Black Lion, Aegis, etc from the SLDF in exile.  And we know there were still ships in the caches (3 Kimi per the fluff) going into the 3060s.  Jumpships?  I do not recall reading anywhere the Clans were building any of the standard jumpships like the Monolith, Star Lord, Invader, Tramp, Merchant or Scout.  They build some small ones like the Hunter, Odyssey,and Comitatus but only a few of these designs compared to how many they ended up with from the SLDF.  Dropships is probably the closest they come to matching what they inherited- new build Overlord Cs, Union Cs, Sassanids, Carriers, Miraborgs, Mercers, Arcadias, Broadsword, and Outpost might match some of the numbers of what they inherited.  But most of their transportation comes from the Star League- the Clans as a whole, even pre-Reaving do not have the support structure to build what they currently use.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 19 April 2019, 13:15:10
Right - but for all the time until WoR there was no need to build new ships en masse. They could maintain all the active ships and could build enough to replace regular losts. There was just no need to do more.
But we also need that the clans were able to design and build new ships in short time. The Noruff was a direct answer to the new naval battles the clans had to fight. The Miraborg is new too, but we dont know how long they needed to design it as it was first planned with a different name. Arcadia, Mercer and Outpost are more examples of the '60s. And the Steel Vipers were able to build such a monster like the Leviathan Prime in secret.
Sure the WoR wasn't good for all the naval yards. But the clans still have all the needed knowledge to build new yards and ships. Whether they want to do so or what other priorities they have is another question.

Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 19 April 2019, 13:18:59
There's a world of difference between a few ships, no matter how big they might be, and hundreds of WarShips.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 April 2019, 13:20:31
Noruff!  I knew I was forgetting a dropship!

And you are citing dropships . . . which is where I said it was possible they had replaced/added a significant number next to what they inherited.  The Clans lack the economic/industrial base to do like the Star League and churn out 400 SovSoy for a building program- such a build program is like a pyramid, it needs a huge base to get to the point.  I listed what warships the Clans built from scratch, pretty sure the number was lower than 50 and probably lower than 30.  Was the combined Clan warship fleet even reaching the number of just SovSoy the Star League produced?

Never denied they lacked the knowledge, afaik no one except Falcons really ran around killing scientists.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 19 April 2019, 14:39:27
1000 warships eh?  **3D prints 1000 miniature warships from various eras of history**

Hopefully by that point the khan realizes he/she was a moron, and only kills whoever had the 3D printing idea - then takes it as a win, since his order was technically carried out.

I counted the number of warships the clans built from scratch and the total number is, at minimum, 43 with a total tonnage of a somewhere in the vicinity of 30,000,000 tons.  Most of these seem to have been built during the earlier part of the Political and the Golden centuries, but we don't know the specifics for sure.  This means that the entirety of the clans produced roughly 120kt of warships per year, it could be argued that 500kt could be produced per year continuously, but I doubt they could produce more than that, and would likely peg the number closer to ~300kt.  Using the 500kt number as a starting point, and a growth factor based partially on their available population, they are still looking at decades or even centuries to produce 1,000 warships.

It would be vastly more reasonable to upgrade and overhaul the warship forces of the clans to more effective vessels - look towards marauder648's FRAM program for a potential first couple of steps in this situation.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 April 2019, 15:09:31
43?

How many did that break down by class?

I know . . .

Leviathan-  3
Nightlord-  9?
York-  we know of only 1 absolute new build
Fredasa-  13
Peregrine- 'only a few built during the Golden Age' @ 200kt and 'lightly armed'
Molynir-  Singleton?

So yeah, barely 30
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 19 April 2019, 15:17:13
The description of York destoyers indicated abatch of them were built during what would be the Political Century. 

And don't forget the 2 Conquerors.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 19 April 2019, 15:33:39
43?

Fredasa       14+
Peregrine      2-4+ (stated as "a few")
Carrack        2+ (unknown number but SO states they were the first warships built by the Diamond Sharks and Nova Cats)
Molniya        1+ (first warship built by the Wolves according to SO)
Corone         1+ (first warship built by the Snow Ravens according to SO)
York          13+ (Warden clans page 46, a dozen were built, and a new one commissioned by the Coyote which appears in their fleet in FM:Updates)
Nightlord      8+
Leviathan      3


So that's actually 44 - I had forgotten about the extra new York-class the Coyotes had built, and when I did my count before I was primarily looking at before the invasion, so while I had 2 Leviathan's listed, the Leviathan Prime wasn't included, nor was the above mentioned York.

The Conquerors don't count as they were overhauls of an existing ship - while the overhauls are absolutely massive, they weren't technically scratch-built.  If we were to include major overhauls, then you could probably add roughly another dozen (spit-balling here, it could be a fair bit less).
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 April 2019, 16:02:50
Problem is the Yorks started off as conversions and we know of only 1 absolutely new build.  For the Fredasa, I dropped one named ship from Sarna's list because I thought it had been what the Blues had formerly been called- but none of those names worked out.  How many Fredasa were lost when their creating Clan, Jags, were destroyed- the FMU listing?

As far as the Carrack, I forgot about the transports . . . but the Carrack was a Star League design, so unfortunately it falls into the same problem category as the York.  So at least two were Clan built, but not a Clan design.  I stretched the point with the York b/c the Clans did a massive redesign- the like cruisers that became carriers for WWII.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 19 April 2019, 16:36:13
Problem is the Yorks started off as conversions and we know of only 1 absolutely new build.  For the Fredasa, I dropped one named ship from Sarna's list because I thought it had been what the Blues had formerly been called- but none of those names worked out.  How many Fredasa were lost when their creating Clan, Jags, were destroyed- the FMU listing?
There are 14 Yorks listed in FM:U, per TRO3057 only 6 Rigas survived the exodus civil war, at minimum this means 8 were new builds.  Though "Though new Yorks have not been built since a dozen were produced more than a century ago..." (FM: Warden Clans, pg 46) suggests those dozen were built, not retrofitted.

Edit: 2 Fredasas were captured by the Star League during their assault on the Smoke Jaguars, so there's 14 which are actually listed in FMU.

As far as the Carrack, I forgot about the transports . . . but the Carrack was a Star League design, so unfortunately it falls into the same problem category as the York.  So at least two were Clan built, but not a Clan design.  I stretched the point with the York b/c the Clans did a massive redesign- the like cruisers that became carriers for WWII.

As far as construction potential, where the design originated from doesn't matter, all that matters is the industrial capability of the clans.  That 2 (or more) Carracks were built indicates there was industrial capability to build them, thus that capacity could be used to build other types of warships - with some re-orientation of infrastructure.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 19 April 2019, 16:47:31
Honestly though Colt, you and I are just nitpicking here, while agreeing on the idea that the premise of building 1000 warships is absurd. 

Even using my upper end limit of 500kt/yr (which I admitted straight out was a stretch), the clans still need 200 years (assuming industrial stagnation) to create 1,000 100kt warships.  And this is the entire aerospace industrial might of the clans being focused on this - not a single clan.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 April 2019, 16:59:06
Oh, sort of now I am curious about the off the top of my head number.  Sarna lists 14 named, none were Jag . . . I also want to say a Fredasa bought it at Huntress would would not have been listed in FMU- so 16?  16+?

Either way, its not a lot of warships for nearly 250 years- even throwing in the refits to keep the worker's skills sharp.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 19 April 2019, 22:42:48
Oh, sort of now I am curious about the off the top of my head number.  Sarna lists 14 named, none were Jag . . . I also want to say a Fredasa bought it at Huntress would would not have been listed in FMU- so 16?  16+?
That does appear to be the case... not that an extra 360kt is going to throw off my expectations much.

Either way, its not a lot of warships for nearly 250 years- even throwing in the refits to keep the worker's skills sharp.
On the other hand, this comment got me thinking.  The Ravens put together the first (only?) Corone-class in 2915, with most of the other  clans' "First Warships" being built in the 3rd part of the same century.  The first Nightlord was introduced in 2932, while the first York and Fredasa were introduced in 2947 and 2962 respectively.  This suggests to me that the entirety of the warships that were actually built from the ground up started in roughly 2913 (+/- a year or two), leaving the construction window to be (and I'm stopping with the Leviathan Prime) roughly 160 years - it also means that all the Yorks were built over the course of about 15 years.  If just this time span is used that averages out to close to 180kt per year, a 50% increase over my previous estimation.  I'm still not willing to push the yearly sustained maximum production to more than about 600kt, but even with that number you are still looking at nearly 2 centuries (assuming industrial stagnation, of course).
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 April 2019, 23:19:47
But where some of those numbers run into problems would be . . . how many of those weapon systems were stripped off ships in the caches?  How much of the systems were stripped from the ships?

A interesting question would be does the jump core on any of the 'new' ships correspond to the size of a old SL or TH ship?  Basically could the Molnyia, which for some reason I remember being given around 400kt?, be built using a stripped down Vincent jump core?  Sure, its a bit oversized and thus inefficient for the mass of the core to the ship but . . .

Additionally, before the new ships were constructed I would expect the work was done on the Avatar-to-Liberators, fixing the Camerons, upgrades to compact core cargoships, working on SovSoys (Wolves extra collar on Dire Wolf), and other refits.  Heck, adding the LF batteries to the existing JS fleet would still be steady activity.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 20 April 2019, 01:02:13
But where some of those numbers run into problems would be . . . how many of those weapon systems were stripped off ships in the caches?  How much of the systems were stripped from the ships?

My guess (and all it is is a guess), is that very few if any weapons would have been stripped off the caches.  With the clan's emphasis on live-fire training and combat, there's going to be significant enough wear and tear to see a need for either new built or virtually new built weapons - what I mean by virtually built is that there's manufacturing able to replace all parts of the weapon and over time everything gets replace (I liken this to the favorite axe story, the shaft splinters so you replace the shaft, a year later the blade cracks so you replace the blade - is it still the same axe?).

A interesting question would be does the jump core on any of the 'new' ships correspond to the size of a old SL or TH ship?  Basically could the Molnyia, which for some reason I remember being given around 400kt?, be built using a stripped down Vincent jump core?  Sure, its a bit oversized and thus inefficient for the mass of the core to the ship but . . .
First, I don't expect any of the 3 unknown ship types to be larger than 500kt, but I also didn't include them in my calculations for yearly output at all, if there's only 5 warships between the three classes it's not going to make a difference, if there's much more than that then I'm probably going to need to rethink the warship industrial potential of the homeworlds.  I have the Peregrine stuck in my head as being ~200kt (that's probably a carry-over from Dragon Cat's AU though), and have the idea of a small carrier for the Corone (but I don't have a reason for that other than the Ravens built it) and think it could be based on the Samarkand-class carriers, the Peregrine could be based on the Mako.  If the Molniya is about the size of a Vincent, that certainly could have been where the design originated.  But all that is speculation, I'm pretty sure there's been no canon references to the actual sizes of these classes.

Additionally, before the new ships were constructed I would expect the work was done on the Avatar-to-Liberators, fixing the Camerons, upgrades to compact core cargoships, working on SovSoys (Wolves extra collar on Dire Wolf), and other refits.  Heck, adding the LF batteries to the existing JS fleet would still be steady activity.
I actually forgot about the LF battery refits  :-[.  But had figured that more normal refits and the major class changing refits would have been the first things to happen.  Like you mentioned earlier, this would allow them to continue having experience in working with warships, while at the same time giving them a reason to build the surrounding infrastructure to support the creation of warships.  This might have been why there seemed to be a boom in warship construction in the 3rd quarter of the 30th century - the infrastructure was finally there to start thinking about building warships again... then they realized how quickly such a resource intensive project could be lost to another clan, so virtually stopped producing new ones - just a hypothetical.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: marauder648 on 20 April 2019, 02:35:10
Re refits and updates I kind of went into this with my FRAM stuff here

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61404.0

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61530.0
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 20 April 2019, 12:20:20
An advantage of the Wor was that the almost whole bunch of old SL warships was destroyed/disabled.

Before that the Clans did not have the need for a serious capital ship building program. After the Wor and espeically after the experiences of the batles, wherein capital ships were more than often THE decisive battle factor for victory, I think the Homeclans know they will need a new serious building program for warships.

New warship designs which take account of the lessons of the WoR and the role of the Homeclans as Far-Far-Away interstellar power.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Knightmare on 20 April 2019, 20:10:40
Enjoying this thread. Keep it coming fellas...
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 April 2019, 22:39:15
An advantage of the Wor was that the almost whole bunch of old SL warships was destroyed/disabled.

Before that the Clans did not have the need for a serious capital ship building program. After the Wor and espeically after the experiences of the batles, wherein capital ships were more than often THE decisive battle factor for victory, I think the Homeclans know they will need a new serious building program for warships.

New warship designs which take account of the lessons of the WoR and the role of the Homeclans as Far-Far-Away interstellar power.

Problem is they do not have the support infrastructure to replace what they lost.  Look at what created the fleet they inherited- those many worlds of the Star League.  Comparatively they have a much smaller- even if you give them more efficient b/c of tech- industrial base than the Terran Hegemony let alone the whole of the League.  It basically comes down to population- a worker doing the standard day/week is still going to create around 40 man-hours of production.  You can use a modifier for the tech level being better, longer shifts and for no weekends (this is doubtful) but even the Clans still have holidays, but you are not going to magically make a single Clan worker to be as productive as 100 or 1000 Star League -era workers.

So all those Star League era ships were lost, and they were a huge reserve of man-hour capital the Clans could use but before did not have to replace.  They are not going to be able to replace the number of ships they lost since they were artificially sourced- they are going to be limited to their own organic growth.

And very likely they will not have a balanced fleet mix, but go battleship mad- it fits with their pre-WoR mindset.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: marauder648 on 20 April 2019, 23:09:14
And during the WoR the Clans lost not only their most knowledgeable ship builders, the Ravens who buggered off to the IS, but the biggest naval facility in all of Clan space at Lum was utterly wrecked.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 20 April 2019, 23:33:08
Once the infrastructure requirements are built up, I could see the clans building a new fleet with a basic level of variety.  IE, some destroyers, some cruisers, some transports, and battleships.  It's the Star Adder mentality that will be guiding the effort.

They have time to do this, and the motivation of that vague genetic deadline mentioned in Wars of Reaving Supplemental.  It's just a matter of when will the new invasion come storming in on their new fleets.   
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 21 April 2019, 06:52:23
They just don't need a fleet as big as the old SLDF. Not even as big as the old exodus fleet. They need less than what was active in the WoR as the IS have not started a real warship program after the Jihad as far as i know.
We can assume that not all battle losses in the WoR were total losses. So there might be some salvage.
We can also assume that even in the WoR not all mothballed ships were activated.
We know that the clans in their high were able to create and produce a massive ship like the Leviathan in relative short time - more so on the Leviathan Prime. So i assume that the clan shipyards are far superior to what we have seen in the Star League era.

Sure i do not expect to see clan fleets with hundreds of warship squadrons. But they can bring much more naval fire power in a new invasion than the IS is able to handle .... as long as the writers want to do so.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Ruger on 21 April 2019, 07:32:22
We can also assume that even in the WoR not all mothballed ships were activated.

I believe I remember reading in WoR or the Supplemental that the Clan caches were empty of WarShips.

Ruger
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 21 April 2019, 07:55:35
I believe I remember reading in WoR or the Supplemental that the Clan caches were empty of WarShips.
It is mentioned that the naval caches of some Clans (as to the Star Adders) are empty. But it is not mentioned that all naval caches have been depleted.
I think there might have been some left (maybe a dozen or so, and maybe some designs we do not have gotten Clan updates (a Farragut C and/or Soyal C would be very appreciated  :) ).

While they lost the Ravens, the most powerful warship, the Leviathan Prime, was built by the Steel Vipers. They were not a very economic powerhorse, nevertheless they were capable to construct this super ship. If the Homeclans want to have such ships and an effective warship-building industry they will do this.
They will need time but time they have (60 years no contact to the Homeworlds in 3150, the Homeclans could be a military superpower again).

What you may underestimate is the level of automation the Clans`industry has achieved. This level must be very high and advanced, this will help them, either.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Elmoth on 21 April 2019, 12:02:44
If you need workers on short order, just iron womb a few hundred thousand of them. In 20 years you have all the construction manpower you want.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 21 April 2019, 12:42:41
It is mentioned that the naval caches of some Clans (as to the Star Adders) are empty. But it is not mentioned that all naval caches have been depleted.
I think there might have been some left (maybe a dozen or so, and maybe some designs we do not have gotten Clan updates (a Farragut C and/or Soyal C would be very appreciated  :) ).

While they lost the Ravens, the most powerful warship, the Leviathan Prime, was built by the Steel Vipers. They were not a very economic powerhorse, nevertheless they were capable to construct this super ship. If the Homeclans want to have such ships and an effective warship-building industry they will do this.
They will need time but time they have (60 years no contact to the Homeworlds in 3150, the Homeclans could be a military superpower again).

What you may underestimate is the level of automation the Clans`industry has achieved. This level must be very high and advanced, this will help them, either.

Thumbs up for a Farragut C
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Knightmare on 21 April 2019, 14:23:17
If you need workers on short order, just iron womb a few hundred thousand of them. In 20 years you have all the construction manpower you want.

Still need to build all those wombs and have the caste members available to oversee the operation. Then, facilities to clothe, feed, care for, etc. your new babies until they can join your workforce. Not impossible, but certainly not on the scale you’re talking about in the time period you’re suggesting. Plus, big population jumps won’t be easy with state of the remaining homeworlds after the WoR.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: dgorsman on 21 April 2019, 14:57:43
Isn't the iron womb system reserved for the warrior caste?  Things would have to change significantly to expand it to the "working classes".

Also, is anyone aware of any germanium bottlenecks in the homeworlds?  Aside from likely fragmentation between multiple clans, requiring political compromises for trading between merchant castes or repeated trials.  A few Warships wouldn't be a problem but a large scale production effort would certainly bring this to the fore.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 21 April 2019, 15:17:02
The iron wombs would indeed be controlled by the warrior caste.  But washouts happen, and then are assigned to lower castes.  The given touman would have to have enough capacity to accept 1,000 to 10,000 (or more) warriors from a 120k birthing.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 21 April 2019, 15:32:58
Isn't the iron womb system reserved for the warrior caste?  Things would have to change significantly to expand it to the "working classes".

True - but the clans also have to increase their breeding rates to bolster their depleted warrior ranks. So with every increase on the warrior side, you automatically increase the number of washedouts and bolster your labor caste.

With all the damage from the WoR is still don't see the homeworld clans devastated like the IS after the 1st and 2nd SW. The clans still have their scientists and knowledge. They still have many factories and mining facilities, even some naval yards. Sure they need time to restructure, repair and rebuild. But if they don't face the next internal conflict and focus on a new invasion, they have time to build a force (in space and on the ground) that can endanger the whole IS.
And if the Adders are still in the lead they will not attack without a plan and without confidence that it will work.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 01 May 2019, 14:10:04
So I am really getting into kindraa mick kreese which is noted as a Crusader minded and aero focused faction. They control two warships but if they wanted to increase their fleet with their limited resources what would make more sense? Trialing for a mothballed ships or saving up to buy new?

If the ship in question was a destroyer or escort ship vs a cruiser would that change your answer?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 01 May 2019, 14:58:58
Question is, who will they have repairing or building that new (to them) ship?

Does no good to get a ship from the Caches when its unable to do anything . . . IMO that would be like throwing blood in the water after they went to that difficulty.  Would the Cobras, Sharks, Ravens or Vipers like a new ship?



If we are talking about getting a ship out of mothballs, my answer is always Kimigure.  Maybe a side of LF Monsoon for a 'transport.'
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 10 May 2019, 18:59:10
Question is, who will they have repairing or building that new (to them) ship?

Does no good to get a ship from the Caches when its unable to do anything . . . IMO that would be like throwing blood in the water after they went to that difficulty.  Would the Cobras, Sharks, Ravens or Vipers like a new ship?

If we are talking about getting a ship out of mothballs, my answer is always Kimigure.  Maybe a side of LF Monsoon for a 'transport.'


Is there a difference between cached and mothballed ships?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 10 May 2019, 19:13:03

Is there a difference between cached and mothballed ships?

No, the only difference is nomenclature in use.  Cached warships are mothballed, mothballed ships are cached...
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 10 May 2019, 19:25:09
No, the only difference is nomenclature in use.  Cached warships are mpthballed, mothballed ships are cached...

Got it thanks.

And many ships which were cached were in fine working order right? After the adders absorbed the burrocks they cached several warships that they did not need
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 10 May 2019, 19:34:43
Got it thanks.

And many ships which were cached were in fine working order right? After the adders absorbed the burrocks they cached several warships that they did not need

That depends.  If any of them were damaged and no one could take the time and resources to repair them, they may have been put into mothballs in a damaged state for repair at a latter time.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Ruger on 10 May 2019, 20:23:34
Got it thanks.

And many ships which were cached were in fine working order right? After the adders absorbed the burrocks they cached several warships that they did not need

There were a few instances at least of cached ships not being able to be brought back up to snuff. IIRC, for instance, the Cloud Cobras tried to reactivate a New Samarkand (II?) - class carrier, and couldn't get it in working order.

Ruger
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 10 May 2019, 21:20:19
There were a few instances at least of cached ships not being able to be brought back up to snuff. IIRC, for instance, the Cloud Cobras tried to reactivate a New Samarkand (II?) - class carrier, and couldn't get it in working order.

Ruger

I am going to say that is a economic/feasibility angle . . . they probably could not do it at a reasonable cost.  If you willing to spend 10x the original cost of the ship you could probably do it.  But why when you could get the Ravens (before Reavings anyway) to build a brand new York?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Knightmare on 12 May 2019, 19:07:44
Exactly.

And why build a York when you can build, supply, field, etc. galaxies of ground troops, DropShips and JumpShips that can hold assets, win trials and cover themselves in glory?

Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 17 May 2019, 17:31:36
Exactly.

And why build a York when you can build, supply, field, etc. galaxies of ground troops, DropShips and JumpShips that can hold assets, win trials and cover themselves in glory?

I think that was 100% true until jags died and esp in the WOR, clans with big fleets had a huge advantage that was damn hard to overcome
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 May 2019, 09:09:02
Restoring a mothballed ship to function can take just as long or longer than going with a new build for the simple reason of you have to GET to the components that are being replaced.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 20 May 2019, 15:18:20
And many ships which were cached were in fine working order right? After the adders absorbed the burrocks they cached several warships that they did not need

In fact the Adders mothballed them because they couldn't maintain all the ships of their increased fleet at once. Their new yards were damaged in the trial and needed some repair before maintenance could be covered for all ships.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 20 May 2019, 18:17:11
Would it be possible to set up a lease to own deal? Say the buying clan would promise x percent of production of a certain unit plus whatever down payment they could make
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 21 May 2019, 05:59:00
Everything is possible as long as both sides agree
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Knightmare on 23 May 2019, 12:51:21
I think that was 100% true until jags died and esp in the WOR, clans with big fleets had a huge advantage that was damn hard to overcome

True, but the WoR were such an unexpected deviation from the Clan "norm." The phrase, "well that escalated quickly" is an apt description of the WoR, with a rinse and repeat component. 
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 13 August 2019, 22:28:26
For a resource poor clan like the spirits and or kindraa mick kreese would the military grade carrack be a good option to bulk up their fleets?

Can someone point me to the warship of the week article for the carrack if there is one?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 15 August 2019, 08:27:21
True, but the WoR were such an unexpected deviation from the Clan "norm." The phrase, "well that escalated quickly" is an apt description of the WoR, with a rinse and repeat component.
Well, does war not ever escalate quickly?
And the more pwerful weapons you have the quicker this happens.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 17 August 2019, 07:16:44
It was the first full war in centuries within the homeworlds. An event not known for generations. Everything else before was done via trials. Even the fights on York between Star Adders and Blood Spirits while no longer bound to zellbriggen weren't evolved to that stage of full war.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 17 August 2019, 07:29:21
It was the first full war in centuries within the homeworlds. An event not known for generations. Everything else before was done via trials. Even the fights on York between Star Adders and Blood Spirits while no longer bound to zellbriggen weren't evolved to that stage of full war.

Yep which is why once fleets got unleashed clans, which could concentrate naval power did way better
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 17 August 2019, 13:33:11
The Homeworld Clans pretty much threw out the rulebook by this point.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 21 August 2019, 12:33:39
Did the clans have the specs blue prints to build any warship from the sldf and house fleets?

For example if the clans wanted to build say a robinson transport iic could they do that?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Ruger on 21 August 2019, 12:49:24
Did the clans have the specs blue prints to build any warship from the sldf and house fleets?

For example if the clans wanted to build say a robinson transport iic could they do that?

They apparently built more York-class destroyer/carriers based on the numbers. The original versions of these ships were refitted Riga II-class WarShips.

Edit: They also seem to have built more Carrack-class transports as well.

Ruger
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 August 2019, 13:23:17
You also run into things like the rebuild of the Avatars into Liberators and IIRC they 'fixed' their Cameron's power supply problems.  Taking a ship apart to that point means you should be able to build something like it.  I thought they did make new . . . Whirlwinds? from the Davion IIs.

But did they have specs for ships they did not take with them?  Doubtful- first the Robinson as you suggest belonged to another House, you could maybe make a case for a for something like the Luxor or McKenna since they were SL designs.  BUT . . . here is where certain data core information bites you in the butt, while the New Dallas and other memory cores have provided plans for mechs, armor and weapons they have NOT included designs for warships (b/c, duh they are wiping them out) . . . closest you got was the Helm Core or other source bringing the FedSuns closer to being able to produce warships.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 21 August 2019, 14:16:26
You also run into things like the rebuild of the Avatars into Liberators and IIRC they 'fixed' their Cameron's power supply problems.  Taking a ship apart to that point means you should be able to build something like it.  I thought they did make new . . . Whirlwinds? from the Davion IIs.

But did they have specs for ships they did not take with them?  Doubtful- first the Robinson as you suggest belonged to another House, you could maybe make a case for a for something like the Luxor or McKenna since they were SL designs.  BUT . . . here is where certain data core information bites you in the butt, while the New Dallas and other memory cores have provided plans for mechs, armor and weapons they have NOT included designs for warships (b/c, duh they are wiping them out) . . . closest you got was the Helm Core or other source bringing the FedSuns closer to being able to produce warships.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 21 August 2019, 16:10:27
If the official plot needs them to have plans for the Robinson, they will surely have them and be able to build as much as they need.  ;)

Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 22 August 2019, 11:16:56
IMHO the Home Clans do have other premises for using their warships than the Star League.
This they will have to bear in mind in designing their new ships.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 August 2019, 11:38:44
IMHO the Home Clans do have other premises for using their warships than the Star League.
This they will have to bear in mind in designing their new ships.

Premises?

They would not have the same level of plans on any House ship as they did TH/SL ship- and again, none of the canon data cores that were 'found' had that information AFAIK.  As far as non-SL ships all I can think of is the Davion Block IIs that became Whirlwinds and the Mongoose battleship (Silver Mongoose?) that got wrecked.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: dgorsman on 22 August 2019, 12:18:37
Pretty sure SLIC members who went along with the rest of the SLDF brought intel data cores with all sorts of things.  Now those may be quietly data rotting in the bottom of some empty Brian Cache (habits die hard; information is kept compartmentalized, but those in the know didn't make the second Exodus).
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 August 2019, 13:10:07
Sure, but even stolen plans are not actual production blue prints (and still leaves out Institutional Knowledge) . . . I can sketch out the internal workings of my old M-16, but you cannot go grab your molds & drill presses to make a M-16 off of the drawings I give you.  You will still have to re-invent the weapon.  The advantage is you know it can be done, problem is HOW.

My point with the data cores is a factor of canon, in that none of the data cores we are told about ever include warship specs.  Which I pointed out was for OOC reasons b/c they were intent on wiping out the warship fleets.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 26 August 2019, 11:44:23
I was re reading the info on the cached warship “ quicksilver mongoose” after the mongoose absorption it was cached in the strana mechty system, I was curious why it would have been stored there rather than say huntress or Atreus?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 August 2019, 11:53:33
Got wrecked
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 26 August 2019, 12:03:19
Got wrecked

Lol yes but that happened in the circe system
And not strana mechty. So why haul it all that way?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 03 September 2019, 14:40:42
So kindraa mick kreese is crusader aero focused kindraa known for its warship commander bloodlines and kick butt marines.

In canon they control a Potemkin and a Lola iii looking for ideas to leverage these strengths and grow their fleet.

What first comes to mind would be to become the caravan of the mandrills: using the Potemkin to haul raw materials/troops for a nice price with their marines attached for an additional charge.

For convoy protection what would be good additions to their tiny fleet? The Riga? Mako? York?

Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Maingunnery on 03 September 2019, 15:19:46
York if you can afford it.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 September 2019, 15:57:55
IIRC, no indications a Mako ever went on the Exodus.

Need to be a bit more careful with the words you are using, you make them sound mercenary quineg?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Ruger on 03 September 2019, 16:44:58
IIRC, no indications a Mako ever went on the Exodus.

There were three Mako-class corvettes controlled by the bandit caste in the Homeworlds during the Wars of Reaving, quiaff?

Ruger
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 September 2019, 17:00:21
Sorry, let me clear it up . . . the 2nd statement was how he was making the Monkeys sound merc.

And I must have forgot Reavings or overlooked it.  All that ever impressed one about it was, too bad none of the little fast ships had survived the SWs.  I LOVED the design and description- must have fixed the entry.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 03 September 2019, 17:27:42
Sorry, let me clear it up . . . the 2nd statement was how he was making the Monkeys sound merc.

And I must have forgot Reavings or overlooked it.  All that ever impressed one about it was, too bad none of the little fast ships had survived the SWs.  I LOVED the design and description- must have fixed the entry.

No offense taken it was a valid point but what else would you leverage those naval forces?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 September 2019, 18:38:47
You would never suggest they were mercenaries . . . you might have auxiliary forces that are bargained into it, or a pair of carefully arranged Trials . . .

The first is what Vlad did to get the Horses in- simplest terms, they merc'd . . . but its not fitting with Clan honor.  Second is what happened with some of the Omni trials- or even use the Nova Cat trial for a world that went down to a coin toss, and the warrior called out 'Edge!'  It was more about the words you used rather than the actions.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 04 September 2019, 07:32:29
Lol yes but that happened in the circe system
And not strana mechty. So why haul it all that way?

Call it a core charge to the Clans for withdrawing more WarShips from their central reserve.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 04 September 2019, 07:46:26
Call it a core charge to the Clans for withdrawing more WarShips from their central reserve.

I recognize we are guessing here but would a clan have to exchange it for something of equal or lesser value?


Also the final naval battle was said to have been large, safe to assume other mongoose ships also got placed in the boneyards?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 23 October 2019, 21:56:56
With few exceptions all clan warships were refits pulled from caches. Would that also be true for dropships? I would think with all the wear and tear would cause a constant demand for new ones
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 13 November 2019, 20:38:13
Or they could look into the Old Naval caches... There might be some left over from Pentagon Wars, mothballed or what not.

There's still that Jade Falcon design, one of their first, without stats... I think a light class Frigate?

Maybe they'll use more jumpers but with safecon? And use naval stations at each end? Who knows... Brent might  ::)! He knows everything... so does Ray! (sometimes)

TT


If a clan pre wars of reavings stumbled upon a forgotten cache of ships would they have to “ register” them with the grand council?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Deadborder on 15 November 2019, 18:35:33
I'd presume so, given how many cases there are of disputes over resources going to the Grand Council
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 15 November 2019, 19:55:30
I'd presume so, given how many cases there are of disputes over resources going to the Grand Council

I am surprised by this. the clans seemed to operate under the “finders keepers “ paradigm.

Why would they need to register them?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Warship on 17 November 2019, 15:30:36
I am surprised by this. the clans seemed to operate under the “finders keepers “ paradigm.

Why would they need to register them?

After the Wolverine debacle, I would assume registration to be the norm.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 17 November 2019, 18:14:27
After the Wolverine debacle, I would assume registration to be the norm.

I gotta disagree. We have examples like spirits and raven warship trade which was secret, the building of New York’s and the leviathans were all secret until they were revealed right?

I must think the clans esp post reaving do not have a 100% account of warships
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 17 November 2019, 18:21:23
The biggest secret build of all is the Perigard Zalman.  No registration there...
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 18 November 2019, 09:48:04
The biggest secret build of all is the Perigard Zalman.  No registration there...
Well, the other registrated the Perigard Zalman, when this ship attacked. This is the Way of the Clans, is not it?  ;)
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 18 November 2019, 10:11:01
Well, the other registrated the Perigard Zalman, when this ship attacked. This is the Way of the Clans, is not it?  ;)

Aff.  That was its Trial of Position. 
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: dgorsman on 18 November 2019, 10:17:28
Such a fine line it is with the Clans.  You keep things by defending them in trials, not hiding them.  If the other Clans don't bother looking that doesn't count as hiding it.   :fine_print:
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 23 November 2019, 16:01:23
The biggest 'forgotten' caches are ones controlled by extinct Clans like the Mongoose or the Widowmakers when all there warriors were killed who knew the locations of those caches. Others like the Wolverines may have left ships behind and hidden that are lost but the Clans overall may have general caches that have been the primary source of warships. But remember there is a reason why many were cached to begin with. Damage that could not be repaired easy, damaged components, not enough trained crews. Things like that.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 24 November 2019, 09:39:19
IIRC, the Star-League-in-Exile did mothball their ships in caches in the 5 star systems of the Pentagon worlds.
Given the text I got the idea that many Clans did have small naval caches of their own (given the ships distributed to them after the success of Operation Klondike), but there were still the great caches of the SLiE.
Certain Clans are mentioned of being responsible for or having exceptional large naval caches (Snow Raven, Diamond Shark/Sea Fox, Nova Cat, Star Adder).
So I think these Clans did have access to more warships than others.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 29 November 2019, 18:51:40
IIRC, the Star-League-in-Exile did mothball their ships in caches in the 5 star systems of the Pentagon worlds.
Given the text I got the idea that many Clans did have small naval caches of their own (given the ships distributed to them after the success of Operation Klondike), but there were still the great caches of the SLiE.
Certain Clans are mentioned of being responsible for or having exceptional large naval caches (Snow Raven, Diamond Shark/Sea Fox, Nova Cat, Star Adder).
So I think these Clans did have access to more warships than others.

Post Klondike I have to think the big caches were hit up for the choicest ships and those were activated as needed and the second tier of those activated ships were then cached again for a rainy day.

As navies quickly seemed to have fallen out of favor in the golden century except for notable exceptions like the mongoose absorption I would think that any mothballed ship were in pretty good shape.

For example FM Warden clans stated that the cloud cobras had all their warships on active duty but post wars of reaving they busted open a cache that had two soyez in it.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 30 November 2019, 11:42:59
Do we know if all warships from the Exodus fleet have been accounted yet?

Or are there still missing a number?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 30 November 2019, 16:17:19
Do we know if all warships from the Exodus fleet have been accounted yet?

Or are there still missing a number?

As plot device most caches that specific clans controlled are pretty empty. So as a plot device we would need to discover lost ones or request one from the big caches if those are not tapped
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 01 December 2019, 04:23:49
As far as i know we still don't have exact numbers of any ship class in the exodus fleet. We have a total number and we have details on some ship classes. So we have a lot of space for speculation. Mostly empty caches have still some ships to surprise us all.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 December 2019, 11:30:15
What solid numbers we do have (like McKennas, Avatars and Kimigure) can be offset by the Exodus Civil War infighting- we know ships were lost as the polities battled among themselves.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Wotan on 02 December 2019, 11:44:36
Sure, but we also have no hard number on the numbers of lost ships. In few examples we have specific ships mentioned that are lost.
So overall we have a huge contingent of ships with unclear class and status. Enough for the writers and players to reactivate almost any ship if needed. ;)
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: wolfcannon on 02 December 2019, 15:33:51
we have a solid number of 402 warships in the Exodus,  Aegis is the most numerous class of 35 ships, Lola III is second most numerous class of 32 ships, 29 Potemkin class are the only hard numbers i can definitively say.    we don't know how many house warships aside from the 3 Makos, 1 Dui Shi Wang and 1 Samarkand.   if you add all the know Clan warships existing before the Refusal war, abjuration of the Nova Cats and the War of Reaving, it totals 286 warships. 
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 December 2019, 10:42:37
The McKenna, Kimigure (5), Riga/York and Avatar/Liberator numbers are also known . . . to the point it is canon the Ravens were building brand new Yorks now instead of refitting old SL ships into that class.

The 286 number therefore gets problematic b/c . . . new built York, new ship classes in use like the Nightlord and Fredasa, and finally we know more Clan originals ended up in mothballs like the Molyina and Peregrine.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 04 December 2019, 14:19:50
There are far more Mckennas unaccounted for then ones we know the status of.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 04 December 2019, 16:16:00
I thought the problem with the McKennas is there was 1 more than was said to have survived the retaking of Terra . . . so 16 were left to head off with Kerensky.

Quick look gives me-
SLS Zughoffer Wier      Blake
CGS Lei Kung         Goliath Scorpion
CSR James McKenna      Snow Raven
CW Werewolf         Warden Wolves
CSJ Obsidian         Smoke Jaguars, lost in Golden Century to Mongoose
CCC Second Coming      Cloud Cobra
CIH Cage’s Pride      Ice Hellions
McKenna’s Pride              Clan flagship, Aleksandr’s tomb
CSA Sovereign Right      Star Adders
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 04 December 2019, 16:54:45
This still doesn't answer how many Pinto and Wagon Wheels went after being captured during the Reunification War, also while there isn't any known examples, a single Winchester could be another example of Kerensky to hide in plain site. And further examples are if any Athena class cruisers went along as well, that class is MoC exclusive.

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 07 December 2019, 12:22:07
I thought the problem with the McKennas is there was 1 more than was said to have survived the retaking of Terra . . . so 16 were left to head off with Kerensky.

Quick look gives me-
SLS Zughoffer Wier      Blake
CGS Lei Kung         Goliath Scorpion
CSR James McKenna      Snow Raven
CW Werewolf         Warden Wolves
CSJ Obsidian         Smoke Jaguars, lost in Golden Century to Mongoose
CCC Second Coming      Cloud Cobra
CIH Cage’s Pride      Ice Hellions
McKenna’s Pride              Clan flagship, Aleksandr’s tomb
CSA Sovereign Right      Star Adders

Eighteen left with Kerensky after the Amaris Coup. Which means half are unaccounted for officially. I think one or two May/Likely have been destroyed during the Pentagon Wars and others stripped for parts to keep others running but a few more had to survive in some form or another being a stripped hulk or sitting forgotten in a general Clan cache. 
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 08 December 2019, 11:55:29
I think the missing McKennas are mothballed and can be reactivated.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 08 December 2019, 12:22:49
I think the missing McKennas are mothballed and can be reactivated.

Mothballed ones are likely but the question is there condition at the time they were mothballed. I could see the Clans keeping in service the best ones available and leaving the damaged ones behind. Many could be badly damaged, broken keeled, or stripped hulls. Or they could be like new which begs the question why some smaller Clans like the Burrocks or the Blood Spirits had not pulled one for there own use.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 08 December 2019, 13:23:48
Maintaining these behemoths could be far too expensive for these Clans or this ship class did not fit their philisophy of warfare.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: dgorsman on 08 December 2019, 13:25:06
Or a trial of possession is required, and they could not/did not win.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 08 December 2019, 13:32:08
Eighteen left with Kerensky after the Amaris Coup. Which means half are unaccounted for officially. I think one or two May/Likely have been destroyed during the Pentagon Wars and others stripped for parts to keep others running but a few more had to survive in some form or another being a stripped hulk or sitting forgotten in a general Clan cache.

16 was the sourced number, and I just hit the Clan toumans I remembered as having one- might have been more I missed.  The SLS Michigan MIGHT have been a McKenna, though likely was not.  Due to building Nightlords, rather than refurbishing McKennas I would say any that remained were in the same or worse shape than the Quicksilver Mongoose.  Did we ever get a break down of the Widowmaker & Wolf fleet losses during that Absorption?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 09 December 2019, 08:57:32
The SLS Michigan MIGHT have been a McKenna, though likely was not.

Probably a Texas class. I seem to recall a few Texas class ships being named after states and cities.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 09 December 2019, 12:53:57
Yeah, IIRC it discussed firing its guns and sending off missiles . . . some conjecture said it was a Black Lion, but for flying into the midst of Nicki's pursuit fleet I lean towards a BB.

McKenna's naming conventions seemed to be more about legacy names.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 09 December 2019, 14:40:18
I recall all the ships of Wolf's Dragoons came from the Widowmaker cache...

Leading to a certain Blood named Star Colonel of Widowmaker ancestry to lead the charge.

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 07 January 2020, 18:45:45
As I am building up my kindraa mick kreese which in canon has a Lola and Potemkin I had a question:

In my AU I going to have the mandrills and spirits attempt to seize Albion the former burrock capital including the shipyards and cached ships.

For kindraa mick kreese what would be more advantageous the yards or the ships?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 09 January 2020, 11:45:24
As I am building up my kindraa mick kreese which in canon has a Lola and Potemkin I had a question:

In my AU I going to have the mandrills and spirits attempt to seize Albion the former burrock capital including the shipyards and cached ships.

For kindraa mick kreese what would be more advantageous the yards or the ships?
IMHO the yards.
So they can better maintain their ships and offer maintainance to others for good a profit.

BTW something I have wondered is that the Clans seem to have no info about naval caches left in the Inner Sphere by Kerensky and the SLDF.
They should have known about Gabriel, Luyten and others.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 09 January 2020, 11:51:53
Well, Alex Kerensky may have known about them . . . and the information could be in the Katyusha City databases but most of the Clan founders were ground pounders, which means it may not have been transferred to each Clan's own computer banks.  I THINK you can assume the Ravens know about it- after all they were digging around Quatre Bell and in the OA area as part of their move to the IS . . . and IMO they had to choose that area for a reason, b/c it put a decent amount of space between them and their best buds the Bears.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: dgorsman on 09 January 2020, 13:01:07
And to be honest the early to mid Clans weren't big on history, aside from heavily romanticized versions like all the variations of the Rememberance.  Lots of information would have been left behind in old data centers rather than being migrated.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 11 January 2020, 08:55:50
IMHO the yards.
So they can better maintain their ships and others for a profit

I think so as well. As with so many things warships were a touchy subject with the mandrills and a very delicate had to be maintained. In their quest to become the main naval kindraa having a yard they controlled and perhaps one additional ship would cement their naval superiority and also benefiting the mandrills as a whole new if played smart *

* I recognize that is usually not how they did things 😀
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 18 January 2020, 15:48:00
With resources like ship yards what do we think was more common in terms of payment? Barter such as I will trade you a star of mechs for yard time, purchase such as raw materials for repair or trialing for said services?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 18 January 2020, 17:53:15
Trialing for minor repairs I would think would work but usually scant rescources I would think would be the main medium for repairs.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Vition2 on 28 January 2020, 19:44:01
With resources like ship yards what do we think was more common in terms of payment? Barter such as I will trade you a star of mechs for yard time, purchase such as raw materials for repair or trialing for said services?

My thoughts are that most clans (but not all), would maintain very minor shipyards where basic maintenance could be carried out.  This would keep a ship operational, and would be able to perform low-level armor repair.  More major overhauls, such as upgrading major ship systems, or replacing weaponry, or upgrading armor, would have to be done in more well-equipped yards.  At these yards a clan would more likely trial for a position on the repair/overhaul queue. 

As for the materials used to repair/overhaul, those would likely be supplied by the ship-owning clan in question or available for barter or separate trial (you lose, you pay more for the materials).  In my opinion, most clans would probably be fine with just putting their ship at the end of the queue and barter for the materials, while only particularly aggressive clans would trial for an earlier slot or for materials - it's never a good idea to piss off the people who run the docks.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 29 January 2020, 13:16:58
Stone Lions have a single slip yard over Niles, I'm assuming they would contest anyone for their usage. If it was an ally, bargaining for either salvage, sibkos or materials would seem logical.

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 09 February 2020, 22:54:44
I have no doubts that the Home Clans have built up some more naval yards in the time that has passed.  The only thing stopping us from knowing about it for sure are the authors and developers.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 10 February 2020, 15:50:57
Well, knowing about it and it happening are rather linked with that group of people....
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 10 February 2020, 19:46:25
I know...  but my heart is in the coreward Deep Periphery. 

And with the writers.  There's so many things that could happen, might happen, not to mention what will happen,  that it can't be an easy job. 
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 11 February 2020, 19:23:32
Just wanted to give a shout out to ravenstar studios for their awesome ship yard which I just https://www.ravenstarstudio.com/store/p429/Port_Montgomery_kit.html
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 15 March 2020, 15:15:46
The biggest 'forgotten' caches are ones controlled by extinct Clans like the Mongoose or the Widowmakers when all there warriors were killed who knew the locations of those caches. Others like the Wolverines may have left ships behind and hidden that are lost but the Clans overall may have general caches that have been the primary source of warships. But remember there is a reason why many were cached to begin with. Damage that could not be repaired easy, damaged components, not enough trained crews. Things like that.


The nova cats had one of the biggest clan navies so a couple questions:

Recognizing their leaving of the homeworlds was under fire could isolated convos have been seized? Or by that point were all gloves off? Meaning would the cats have defended any convoy with all warships on hand?


Also if they had any ships cached that had to be left behind what do you think they would have been?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 26 April 2020, 18:03:26
What defense would a shipyard have? Defense sats  or turrets?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: AlphaMirage on 27 April 2020, 06:29:46
What defense would a shipyard have? Defense sats  or turrets?

I'd think dropships and Aerofighters actually with a ring of surveillance sats to provide advance warning to the garrison.  Defense sats are not really very effective in game, too slow, not able to carry enough armor to protect their SI they would get chewed up fast.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 27 April 2020, 09:47:54
Your best bet is to dig through FMU & TRO3067 . . . maybe '60, and check out details of the Viper's campaign to put forces on the ground at Lum.  Lum had the Raven's primary shipyard and there was no way they were/would grant safcon to the Vipers.  The Vipers knew that fact and planned accordingly- they built the Mercer specifically to penetrate the Raven's naval defense cordon.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 27 April 2020, 18:42:18
I'd think dropships and Aerofighters actually with a ring of surveillance sats to provide advance warning to the garrison.  Defense sats are not really very effective in game, too slow, not able to carry enough armor to protect their SI they would get chewed up fast.

Lol then I guess I cannot justify buying more stuff from ravenstar studios... they have amazing space stations etc
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 14 June 2020, 09:17:34
Are there any examples of IS warships being captured and held by clan forces?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 14 June 2020, 11:25:57
Bears took a Kiri during the 1st war and the Warden Wolves had a Mjolnir for a bit before giving it back.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: ravensword on 14 June 2020, 13:00:44
The Ravens have a Thera.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 14 June 2020, 19:18:54
The Ravens have a Thera.

Now I really want to see this painted up in Beta's Galaxy colors.

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 25 February 2021, 15:02:11
When the adders absorbed the burrocks they are noted to have “ rushed”a number of ships into mothballs due to their severely strained naval support arm at the time. My question is:

If a clan had an excess of warships and a rival clan who they had beef with attempted to trial for them would the adders have fought very hard to keep the ships?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 25 May 2021, 17:16:40
If he has shown talent, why should he have not begun a training?

----------

BTW I would have liked to see some more Clan updates of old warship classes (Kimagure, Baron, Farragut, Du Shi Wang et cetera)

I love a farragut and a Barron! But it would wishful thinking to suppose any are still chilling in the caches right?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Nibs on 25 May 2021, 18:04:15
Clan Burrock 2.0 used a Riga, a Kimagure, and two Mako-class WarShips, among others. The first two were most likely the missing ships from Depot MKSC-2. A Baron-class ship operated by the Dark Caste was also destroyed by the Star Adders at the cache.

I like the idea of bandits at the controls of ancient and rare WarShips.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 25 May 2021, 18:22:29
Clan Burrock 2.0 used a Riga, a Kimagure, and two Mako-class WarShips, among others. The first two were most likely the missing ships from Depot MKSC-2. A Baron-class ship operated by the Dark Caste was also destroyed by the Star Adders at the cache.

I like the idea of bandits at the controls of ancient and rare WarShips.

Right?! For my own kindraa mick kreese force I have them flying their freak flag from a Robison warship
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Metallgewitter on 26 May 2021, 09:45:22
Clan Burrock 2.0 used a Riga, a Kimagure, and two Mako-class WarShips, among others. The first two were most likely the missing ships from Depot MKSC-2. A Baron-class ship operated by the Dark Caste was also destroyed by the Star Adders at the cache.

I like the idea of bandits at the controls of ancient and rare WarShips.

The question would be how long they can operate said Warship. WoR stated that there were only two bandit groups that were operating a Warship (I think one of them was the Osis Pride) and that those ships are not in a good state. Of course the woR left a lot of salvage in space so maybe some samrt bandit group was able to bring a ship back to life.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Nibs on 26 May 2021, 11:47:21
The question would be how long they can operate said Warship. WoR stated that there were only two bandit groups that were operating a Warship (I think one of them was the Osis Pride) and that those ships are not in a good state. Of course the woR left a lot of salvage in space so maybe some samrt bandit group was able to bring a ship back to life.

Post-Abjurement, the Snow Ravens were barely able to field a fraction of their WarShips (even with a naval repair yard and the resources of a small interstellar nation). Given that they lack any support whatsoever, any Dark Caste ships would fall apart in short order due to a lack of maintenance. Their appearance in the Wars of Reaving were short-lived, anyway, before most were destroyed.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 08 June 2021, 19:08:02
For wacky infighting clans like the mandrills who had a small and divided navy would each kindraas watch monitor the navies of each other kindraa?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Nibs on 10 June 2021, 20:20:51
For wacky infighting clans like the mandrills who had a small and divided navy would each kindraas watch monitor the navies of each other kindraa?

I would imagine so. There aren't heaps of opportunities for WarShips to do much at all, so the space Mandrills need to keep busy. WarShip Tag?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 04 January 2022, 18:59:36
Clan Burrock 2.0 used a Riga, a Kimagure, and two Mako-class WarShips, among others. The first two were most likely the missing ships from Depot MKSC-2. A Baron-class ship operated by the Dark Caste was also destroyed by the Star Adders at the cache.

I like the idea of bandits at the controls of ancient and rare WarShips.

Did any of the burrock fleet escape the WoR?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Nibs on 04 January 2022, 21:08:31
Did any of the burrock fleet escape the WoR?

I'll break out the book later tonight and do some research. I seem to recall thinking that not every ship was accounted as destroyed, but there is not a comprehensive list of what occurred (escaped/destroyed). I'll look for mention of each ship's confirmed destruction. I bet the fate of a few was left ambiguous.

What I do recall at the moment:

There were seven (7) ships. The Wars of Reaving sourcebook is 'written' by Diamond Shark Loremaster Semi Kalasa, which leaves the possibility of ships that were never accounted for by the other Clans. A story possibility if you like, but I think the named seven make for a reasonable count.

The Ingrid Bucherev arrived in the Tanis system and its oft-repaired jump system was destroyed in the process. I'll check the book to see if there was confirmation of its destruction, but there was no way that it could have escaped.

Update to come. I'm curious now too.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Metallgewitter on 05 January 2022, 09:19:24
I think the Burrock fleet was wiped out. The majority died fighting against the Adders over the length of the WoR The last ship was the Streaking Mist (or the Osis Pride not sure which one) and this ship was destroyed when the Adders cornered the Jaguar aka Rossou Howell
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Nibs on 05 January 2022, 13:19:50
Clan Burrock WarShips

Rebirth: Likely involved in Battle of Priori. Fate unknown.

Hetherington: Destroyed in Battle of Salonika.

Tremor: Involved in Battle of Nouveaux Paris. Fate unknown.

Admiral Russell Nga: Involved in Battle of Salonika. Likely involved in Battle of Priori. Fate unknown.

Stone Crab: Involved in Battle of Salonika. Likely involved in Battle of Priori. Fate unknown.

Ingrid Bucharev: Stranded in Tanis system. Possibly destroyed in Battle of Tanis (3074)

Second Coming: Salvaged from Clan Cloud Cobra after Battle of Tanis (3073). Possibly destroyed in Battle of Tanis (3074)


Allied Society/Bandit WarShips

Prinz Eugen: Destroyed in Battle of Tanis (3073).

Osis Pride: Joined Connor Rood and Clan Ice Hellion in 3072. Dismantled for parts.

Streaking Mist: Involved in Second Battle of Waypoint 531. Involved in Battle of Priori. Likely destroyed in a misjump.

Nikolai Tesla: Suffers crippling damage during an attack on Clan Diamond Shark in 3072. Galaxy Commander William Gastopiv reports that it was destroyed during a misjump.

Fuchida: Destroyed by Clan Goliath Scorpion at First Battle of Waypoint 531.

Unknown Baron-class Vessel: Stolen from Star Adder cache (along with, presumably, the Hetherington and the Admiral Russell Nga) and destroyed there by Adder forces at end of 3072.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Nibs on 05 January 2022, 13:22:04
There you go. Four Burrock WarShips were unaccounted for after the Wars of Reaving. While three were involved in the Battle of Priori, it should be made clear that the Burrock fleet retreated. The fourth, the Tremor, did specifically escape from the Battle of Nouveaux Paris.

So, where are they now?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 05 January 2022, 18:04:13
Clan Burrock WarShips

Rebirth: Likely involved in Battle of Priori. Fate unknown.

Hetherington: Destroyed in Battle of Salonika.

Tremor: Involved in Battle of Nouveaux Paris. Fate unknown.

Admiral Russell Nga: Involved in Battle of Salonika. Likely involved in Battle of Priori. Fate unknown.

Stone Crab: Involved in Battle of Salonika. Likely involved in Battle of Priori. Fate unknown.

Ingrid Bucharev: Stranded in Tanis system. Possibly destroyed in Battle of Tanis (3074)

Second Coming: Salvaged from Clan Cloud Cobra after Battle of Tanis (3073). Possibly destroyed in Battle of Tanis (3074)


Allied Society/Bandit WarShips

Prinz Eugen: Destroyed in Battle of Tanis (3073).

Osis Pride: Joined Connor Rood and Clan Ice Hellion in 3072. Dismantled for parts.

Streaking Mist: Involved in Second Battle of Waypoint 531. Involved in Battle of Priori. Likely destroyed in a misjump.

Nikolai Tesla: Suffers crippling damage during an attack on Clan Diamond Shark in 3072. Galaxy Commander William Gastopiv reports that it was destroyed during a misjump.

Fuchida: Destroyed by Clan Goliath Scorpion at First Battle of Waypoint 531.

Unknown Baron-class Vessel: Stolen from Star Adder cache (along with, presumably, the Hetherington and the Admiral Russell Nga) and destroyed there by Adder forces at end of 3072.

This is great info! I really like the lore around the baron so I gotta hope some are floating around in a cache
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Nibs on 05 January 2022, 19:10:07
I imagine that there are significant pockets of Burrocks, Dark Caste, and Society who remain in the Homewards. They may play a significant part in the evolution of the Homeworlds Clans from 3085 until the day that they return to canon relevancy. Especially any loose ends like Burrock WarShips.

Also, having re-read the excellent Wars of Reaving sourcebook again and on the topic of "Growing your fleet" - the Wars of Reaving have some amazing naval battle scenarios that can be played out on the tabletop.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 12 January 2022, 18:34:48
I know the steel vipers had their secret warship yard which built their death star like Levithan prime, but did that yard build anything else new or did the vipers reactivate any cached ships?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 13 January 2022, 18:11:31
The Steel Vipers had a pretty big fleet of WarShips.  It suggests to me that they had already used up any naval caches that they had.

Also, building new suggests the same. 

And no, they didn't build anything after the Leviathan Prime.  At least we were not told about such.

The Adders had the Leviathan slip dismantled and shipped to one of their planets.  Not sure exactly where.  But the Adders had a lack of orbital repair yards after the Wars of Reaving.  I would think they have remedied that and have perhaps began building more.  But we won't know for sure until we get an update about the Home Worlds. 

Could be a loooong time.   
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 15 January 2022, 12:31:52
The Steel Vipers reactivated an Aegis-class cruiser in 3073 from their naval cache in 3073.

---

The Lhuge Naval yard of New Kent was moved by the Star Adders to Hoard system. Due to their other naval yards, the Albion yards was probably destroyed and the Priori yards damaged.

There is much to repair.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 15 January 2022, 13:25:01
The big question is the Clans that left the Homeworlds but left untapped and hidden naval caches behind. There will also be dropships and jumpships left behind as well.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 15 January 2022, 13:35:35
There were large naval cache in the systems of each of the Pentagon worlds. So far we do not know how many ships are still mothballed there.

----

I wonder how many ships disabled in the WoR might get repaired.
And of the destroyed ships there could be much material taken from the hulks and used again or recycled.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: rebs on 15 January 2022, 14:21:43
The Home Clans also have had many decades of time in which to possibly construct new yards, expand older yards, and repair the damaged yards.

I thought it was stated that pretty much all the naval caches are tapped out.  But then again, a lot has changed since TWoR was released.  New leadership might have different ideas in store for us.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Maingunnery on 15 January 2022, 15:25:12
The big question is the Clans that left the Homeworlds but left untapped and hidden naval caches behind. There will also be dropships and jumpships left behind as well.
The Clans that left the HWs transferred local assets to remaining Clans for favors, so I would assume that most caches have been emptied during WoR, with only a few lost Caches remaining.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Metallgewitter on 17 January 2022, 08:28:43
The WoR mentions that the Adders emptied their last cache during the war after the Burrocks had already salvaged ships from it. The Adders only managed to activcate one of the left over ships and scrapped the rest. The Sharks also emptied their last cache when they returned for a short while. They also activated only one and scrapped the rest due to damage sustained from an asteroid decades earlier. The book mentioned that the Lions had one last cache left that contains 2 ships but they will need help from the Cobras to bring those ships back to service. The Coyotes don't seem to have any cache left. The only Clan that seem to have more left are the Cobras. they activated two Sovyetski Soyus ships from their reserves after the war but their attempt to reacxtivate a Samarkand carrier resulted in failure delegating that ship to target practice. Of course we don't know what the Non Homeworld Clans left behind (except the Horses and maybe the Scorpions)

Though tbh I would wager that the HW clans would first concentrate on repairing infratructure before even dreaming of rebuilding their fleets.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 17 January 2022, 17:55:29
If you where to look at the Homie Civi-Fleets:

What ship types would they still have accesses to?

Odyssey
SLDF Tramp
Comitatus
Hunter
Hunter-LF
Monolith-C

Am I  missing someone?

While the Invader and Merchant classes are common in the Inner Sphere, I'm pretty sure there not used, being scrapped for better versions : Odyssey and Monolith-Cs. ( Though of note: Monoliths are even scarcer in Homie space than before... )

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 09 February 2022, 14:18:33
The Steel Vipers had a pretty big fleet of WarShips.  It suggests to me that they had already used up any naval caches that they had.

Also, building new suggests the same. 

And no, they didn't build anything after the Leviathan Prime.  At least we were not told about such.

The Adders had the Leviathan slip dismantled and shipped to one of their planets.  Not sure exactly where.  But the Adders had a lack of orbital repair yards after the Wars of Reaving.  I would think they have remedied that and have perhaps began building more.  But we won't know for sure until we get an update about the Home Worlds. 

Could be a loooong time.

Wait so those yards built one ship and then got wrecked?!
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 09 February 2022, 20:29:30
Horses have a naval slip above Niles, but I think it's just for them...

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 13 February 2022, 14:23:34
We have examples of the ravens building new ships for others but where they only clan to do so?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 February 2022, 14:03:59
We have examples of the ravens building new ships for others but where they only clan to do so?

No . . . the Bears built the Leviathans in conjunction with the Ravens, and built one over Alshain.  The Vipers would never be provided a ship from the Ravens- part of why they had a larger DS fleet like Mercers- so they would have built their own.  The Jaguars built the Fredasas which ended up widespread, the Wolves built four-ish Molniyas, and the Falcons built the Peregrines.  The surviving Molys were retired after a botched Trial against the Ravens.  The Falcons used their Peregrines as up-gunned escort jumpships it seems, but their supply situation had to really suck- 1 DS and a little over 1kt of supplies?

The Falcons, Jaguars, and a few others built new JS too.

You would think Ulric had the two damaged Molys repaired to move supplies forward during the Invasion . . . it would be interesting to hear they were, though perhaps light on weapons.  The ship would honestly be really useful moving down the Exodus Road up until Vlad pulled out of the Homeworlds.  Heck, the Ravens or Sharks taking the ships would make sense too- 10k supplies, 20 ASF, and 5 drop collars would be welcome in either fleet.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 15 February 2022, 17:52:35
Got a message from Speck. Defender is finished.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 16 February 2022, 14:39:50
Got a message from Speck. Defender is finished.

I dont know what this means but I am interested
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 February 2022, 14:57:12
Old FedSuns ship IIRC.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 03 March 2022, 18:10:57
Did the post ilclan trial wolves Salvage any wrecked warships?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 03 March 2022, 20:05:13
Did the post ilclan trial wolves Salvage any wrecked warships?

No real info but going from the book most of the Republics ships were destroyed.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Metallgewitter on 04 March 2022, 08:31:23
Did the post ilclan trial wolves Salvage any wrecked warships?

And even if they managed to salvage them how could they bring those ships back online? If the Wolves are locked behind the wall they have to make do with the Terran facilities. Uhm, the Titan Yards are basically closed and I am not sure if the Belts have yards that can handle reconstruction work.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 04 March 2022, 11:37:03
And even if they managed to salvage them how could they bring those ships back online? If the Wolves are locked behind the wall they have to make do with the Terran facilities. Uhm, the Titan Yards are basically closed and I am not sure if the Belts have yards that can handle reconstruction work.

Right?! And wasn’t the wolf fleet pretty much wrecked? Did the exiles bring their warships with them?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Metallgewitter on 04 March 2022, 12:45:27
Right?! And wasn’t the wolf fleet pretty much wrecked? Did the exiles bring their warships with them?

The Exiles don't have Warships. Their impressive fleet was destroyed during the Jihad (except one Potemkin IIRC and a Potemkin isn't a real Warship imho). the Wolves will have toi make do with Pocket Warships as those can still be produced in the Terran system (Interdictor and Tiamat for example) If they would use those is another question though.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 04 March 2022, 16:11:02
The Exiles don't have Warships. Their impressive fleet was destroyed during the Jihad (except one Potemkin IIRC and a Potemkin isn't a real Warship imho). the Wolves will have toi make do with Pocket Warships as those can still be produced in the Terran system (Interdictor and Tiamat for example) If they would use those is another question though.

What did the Dire wolf bite the dust too?!
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Ruger on 04 March 2022, 20:01:40
What did the Dire wolf bite the dust too?!

The Exiles never had the Dire Wolf.

Ruger
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 06 March 2022, 08:26:06
Dire Wolf is still active I think. And it was at Terra most likely so it probably took damage in the fighting.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Ruger on 06 March 2022, 08:50:49
Dire Wolf is still active I think. And it was at Terra most likely so it probably took damage in the fighting.

The Wolves lost two ships (one destroyed outright, the other they latter scuttled). The other four were reported as under repair at the Titan yards in IlClan as best I could find.

Ruger
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Metallgewitter on 06 March 2022, 09:27:28
Might be better posted in the Ilclan thread but how many ships do the Wolves have left if we include the Falcon ships? Are we in the double digits or below? And repairing / maintaining ships is costly. The Titan yards might be enough to keep them operable but building new ones is simply not possible unless they rebuild the yards which might be an option after the dust has settled
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 07 March 2022, 08:56:07
Why are they always scuttling ships? They can't build more so they should be doing everything possible to save them. Yes the Republic and Falcons both built ships in the Dark Age era but it was massive investments for both!
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 07 March 2022, 13:49:36
The Exiles don't have Warships. Their impressive fleet was destroyed during the Jihad (except one Potemkin IIRC and a Potemkin isn't a real Warship imho).

The Potemkins are IIRC armed to a battlecruiser level . . . but yeah, the Werewolf, Ulric Kerensky, Implacable, White Paw, Black Paw, and two Vincents were all destroyed because  No Warships Allowed . . . and the Winter Wolf/Yggdrasil disappeared on it's way back to the Lyrans.  When Warden Wolf fans asked after the the Full Moon, their Potemkin it was . . .

'Ooops . . . uh, it was destroyed too after the Jihad.'

Why are they always scuttling ships? They can't build more so they should be doing everything possible to save them. Yes the Republic and Falcons both built ships in the Dark Age era but it was massive investments for both!

As for the warship being scuttled taking the Titan Yards . . . WHY?  Unless you are driving it into the sun, it is not scuttled in the traditional sense- scuttling was done after naval battles to deny the ship to enemy forces when you were not in control of the area.  The ship was sunk b/c it generally removed it as a navigation hazard and kept it from being captured.  You cannot 'sink' a ship in space.  The Crusader Wolves were going to end up controlling the Titan Yards- you know a place that could repair it.  OR if the ship was going to be written off, it could have been scrapped at Titan . . . all sorts of bits could have been reused, or even the alloys go recycled for other uses.

But, blow the ship up . . . afaik, nothing in BTU is like say Star Trek's warp core breach that blows a ship to atoms.  Blowing up a BT warship can cause navigational hazards with debris getting into the shipping lanes . . . or even flying about to damage the Yards or other Galilean system habitats.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Metallgewitter on 08 March 2022, 10:51:36
The Potemkins are IIRC armed to a battlecruiser level . . . but yeah, the Werewolf, Ulric Kerensky, Implacable, White Paw, Black Paw, and two Vincents were all destroyed because  No Warships Allowed . . . and the Winter Wolf/Yggdrasil disappeared on it's way back to the Lyrans.  When Warden Wolf fans asked after the the Full Moon, their Potemkin it was . . .


'Ooops . . . uh, it was destroyed too after the Jihad.'

Well imho you can't exactly use a transport ship as a battleship even if it is armed to the teeth. Unless you fill it's docking collars with Pocket Warships then you might use it as your command ship to control your pseudo fleet. Oh and the Ygdrassil is still active but in the Lyran navy. funny that though: the Invincible should have survived the battle at Terra. Did it got written of "off screen" as well? Or was it mothballed and never been heard of again? Kinda sad the Blakist gave that ship a good overhaul for the Jihad.

The question will be if the titasn Yards can support more then basic repairs. Could they repair a cracked KF core or destroyed maneuvering drive? The FM 3145 make it sound as if the Yards can't undertake the construction of massive ships due to the never repaired damage to the compact drive construction facilities.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 08 March 2022, 11:00:06
Actually, IIRC the surviving Mjolnir was renamed to that . . . pretty sure the Galacti-Invincible is a museum ship over Tharkad now.

Damaged or whatever, you want to talk about the place to take critical damage?  It is a shipyard- not like TF Serpent out in the deep black.  Like I said, even if the ship had to be written off, you would scrap it salvaging what components you could.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: MDFification on 08 March 2022, 12:17:30
They might have figured they didn't have the personnel to man those ships, and couldn't afford to assign the forces to guard them and stop someone from making off with them. Imagine if a whole flotilla of ex-RoTS showed up on Galatia with hijacked WarShips. Suddenly, the RoTS would be "in exile" rather than deceased.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Metallgewitter on 08 March 2022, 17:25:11
Actually, IIRC the surviving Mjolnir was renamed to that . . . pretty sure the Galacti-Invincible is a museum ship over Tharkad now.

Damaged or whatever, you want to talk about the place to take critical damage?  It is a shipyard- not like TF Serpent out in the deep black.  Like I said, even if the ship had to be written off, you would scrap it salvaging what components you could.

Just checked the FM: 3145. The sole Warship of the Commonwealth is the Yggdrassil. They kept the name (well it is a curse for sapcers to rechristen a ship). Too bad the Invincible is not there any more. Now that would be a sign of rbirth: reactivate the Invincible and use it to spearhead an attack into occupied territory. As if that is possible with the Commonwealth having just one naval yard left.

Yeah you are right ripping of working parts from to be scuttled ships is more reasonable then crashing them into the sun. Or maybe use them as a poor man's defense station if need be.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Ruger on 08 March 2022, 20:59:15
Just checked the FM: 3145. The sole Warship of the Commonwealth is the Yggdrassil. They kept the name (well it is a curse for sapcers to rechristen a ship). Too bad the Invincible is not there any more. Now that would be a sign of rbirth: reactivate the Invincible and use it to spearhead an attack into occupied territory. As if that is possible with the Commonwealth having just one naval yard left.

Yeah you are right ripping of working parts from to be scuttled ships is more reasonable then crashing them into the sun. Or maybe use them as a poor man's defense station if need be.

Last I heard, the LCS Invincible still exists, but its jump drive failed after arriving back at Tharkad.

Ruger
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Colt Ward on 09 March 2022, 00:32:20
Tis a museum ship . . . which is why I made the Galactica reference.

Flip side . . . is if it was in anyway functional, it would have shot up the Wolves and Falcons back in the mid 3140s.  Need a meme of someone pounding on a inop fire countrol panel, lol.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 10 March 2022, 14:23:06
They might have figured they didn't have the personnel to man those ships, and couldn't afford to assign the forces to guard them and stop someone from making off with them. Imagine if a whole flotilla of ex-RoTS showed up on Galatia with hijacked WarShips. Suddenly, the RoTS would be "in exile" rather than deceased.

The fact that some units are still out there and Jonah Levin still is on the run makes me think a RoTS in Exile might actually be a possibility.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Metallgewitter on 14 March 2022, 05:08:35
The fact that some units are still out there and Jonah Levin still is on the run makes me think a RoTS in Exile might actually be a possibility.

Now I am imagining that the McKenna's Pride becomes PRincess Peach of Battletech: getting kidnapped by whatever force sets it's eyes on it. I mean the Wolves stole it right from under those nose of the remaining Homeworld Clans now we need Levin to pull the same stunt
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 15 March 2022, 20:32:55
Now I am imagining that the McKenna's Pride becomes PRincess Peach of Battletech: getting kidnapped by whatever force sets it's eyes on it. I mean the Wolves stole it right from under those nose of the remaining Homeworld Clans now we need Levin to pull the same stunt

Nah, I fully expect the Homeworld Clans to reappear and there first act would be to destroy the Pride because it would be inconceivable that the ship still exists and Kerenskys body isnt on Strana Mechty.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 29 July 2022, 18:33:33
With the devastation of fleets in the wars of reaving how many “ destroyed” ships were recalled and repaired?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 30 July 2022, 13:06:50
I can say that Clan Stone Lions has three, using their single slip repair yard above Niles to good effect, pair Lola III and a York. How much damaged durning the Reaving, I don't know but by 3150 or so they should be almost fully repaired...

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Metallgewitter on 31 July 2022, 10:35:21
From what I understood is that the Homeworld Clans seem to have emptied all remaining Naval caches they had left from the Exodus. I would assume that the Yards they still have could theoretically construct new Warships but that is most likely pushed WAAAYYYY down the priority list due to the extensive damage the infrastructure took in the Kerensky cluster (not to mention the devastating losses each touman took)
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 10 November 2022, 17:33:39
From what I understood is that the Homeworld Clans seem to have emptied all remaining Naval caches they had left from the Exodus. I would assume that the Yards they still have could theoretically construct new Warships but that is most likely pushed WAAAYYYY down the priority list due to the extensive damage the infrastructure took in the Kerensky cluster (not to mention the devastating losses each touman took)

In that vein did the civilian jump ship fleet also get mauled during the reavings as well?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Maingunnery on 10 November 2022, 17:40:48
In that vein did the civilian jump ship fleet also get mauled during the reavings as well?
There was almost no restraint in shooting civilian JS during the reavings.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 10 November 2022, 17:47:28
There was almost no restraint in shooting civilian JS during the reavings.

Right… thanks for the reminder so I imagine all new builds were focused on non warships
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 27 January 2023, 22:15:23
Recognizing that their fleet needed beefing up after the absorption war debacle and you could add only two ships to the 4 in the cannon fleet as seen here:


https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Blood_Spirit_Touman

What two ships would you add and why? I am thinking a fredrasa as a quick and fast raider but what in your opinions makes the most sense for those two slots?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 28 January 2023, 19:05:44
There was almost no restraint in shooting civilian JS during the reavings.

Looking at the Merchant Fleet losses and the lack of raw materials the Homeworlds are known for and the destruction of Shipyards it could take century's to rebuild to pre-Reaving levels. Even salvage, extensive salvage might not get even one Clan to pre-Reaving levels. Which means lots of trials to claim jumpships from other surviving Clans or raiding outside the Homeworld space.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 28 January 2023, 20:23:16
Looking at the Merchant Fleet losses and the lack of raw materials the Homeworlds are known for and the destruction of Shipyards it could take century's to rebuild to pre-Reaving levels. Even salvage, extensive salvage might not get even one Clan to pre-Reaving levels. Which means lots of trials to claim jumpships from other surviving Clans or raiding outside the Homeworld space.

So you would recommend more transport capacity Pre WOR and forgoe warships altogether?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 29 January 2023, 02:16:29
While I don’t think any are cannocial stated as being amongst the clans the Dart light cruiser seems perfect for the spirits
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 31 January 2023, 11:22:09
The Home Clans have the best chance to design some new warship classes. And do not forget, if they think they need them they will do anything to get them.
They are Clan.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 31 January 2023, 12:07:10
So you would recommend more transport capacity Pre WOR and forgoe warships altogether?

Honestly yes. Warships don't move troops or raw materials. Jumpships do and at a much lower cost. The Jumpship fleet needs rebuilding more than they need warships. By the Dark Age era they can start construction of warships and even then the best option would be to focus on small warships rather than Heavy Cruiser and Bovs designs.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 31 January 2023, 13:57:22
Honestly yes. Warships don't move troops or raw materials. Jumpships do and at a much lower cost. The Jumpship fleet needs rebuilding more than they need warships. By the Dark Age era they can start construction of warships and even then the best option would be to focus on small warships rather than Heavy Cruiser and Bovs designs.

But those jump ships need protection so perhaps a York? A great fighter carrier…
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 31 January 2023, 16:44:16
But those jump ships need protection so perhaps a York? A great fighter carrier…

Dropships can serve as CV's. A dedicated carrier is in a lot of ways massive overkill. Especially among the Clans where trials serve to restrict damage.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: CJC070 on 01 February 2023, 22:11:44
Looking at the Merchant Fleet losses and the lack of raw materials the Homeworlds are known for and the destruction of Shipyards it could take century's to rebuild to pre-Reaving levels. Even salvage, extensive salvage might not get even one Clan to pre-Reaving levels. Which means lots of trials to claim jumpships from other surviving Clans or raiding outside the Homeworld space.

That could be a good reason why the Homeworlds haven’t emerged yet is the low number of jumpships.  And if they raided outside their territory from a weaker state it could invite an invasion they cannot defeat. 
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 02 February 2023, 17:39:50
How many Cargo jumpers are there left in the HW? Vs. Cargo Warships?

Because " A total of nearly six million personnel, a third of which were soldiers and the rest civilians, were carried in 1,349 JumpShips, 402 WarShips and over 5,000 DropShips. ".

The Star League, p. 96
The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, p. 7

I'll bet if we flip from posted Clan Warships and the various cargo classes of Jumpships, going for cargo and collar capacities, we can pretty much ensure what would be left. I hypothesis that the clans built thier Odyssey and Hunter classes from the more useless and numerous smaller classes, like Aquilla, Lola I and II, the few III's that were damaged during the fighting, I suspect a Newgrange went along, as well as a Huges Yard. Possible Snowdens, for mining and Alliance for general use.

But nothing is shown. The clans have no official spacestations, but it is implied that they do.

TT

PS: Of note, a Hughes-like station is what the Dragoons and the CGS - Empiro are said to operate.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 02 February 2023, 21:20:27
How many Cargo jumpers are there left in the HW? Vs. Cargo Warships?

Because " A total of nearly six million personnel, a third of which were soldiers and the rest civilians, were carried in 1,349 JumpShips, 402 WarShips and over 5,000 DropShips. ".

The Star League, p. 96
The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, p. 7

I'll bet if we flip from posted Clan Warships and the various cargo classes of Jumpships, going for cargo and collar capacities, we can pretty much ensure what would be left. I hypothesis that the clans built thier Odyssey and Hunter classes from the more useless and numerous smaller classes, like Aquilla, Lola I and II, the few III's that were damaged during the fighting, I suspect a Newgrange went along, as well as a Huges Yard. Possible Snowdens, for mining and Alliance for general use.

But nothing is shown. The clans have no official spacestations, but it is implied that they do.

TT

PS: Of note, a Hughes-like station is what the Dragoons and the CGS - Empiro are said to operate.

The Clans had plenty of time to build up there fleets in the century's after Nicholas Kerensky died. It was rescources and need that would have kept new construction down. If a Clan needs a new Nightlord there gonna not build that fleet of merchant jumpships that the Merchant Caste is screaming for.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 06 February 2023, 00:59:08
Yes, while that may be true, most Clans prefer SafeCon to achieve victory, as the rare Warship would seem to be an overkill. And as such, most warships are said to be older models that happen to be built, or refurbished, right around or just before OP: Klondike took place. As Nicky K only took several with him before leaving the Pentagon Cluster for the harsher planets.

And since then, for almost 200 years or so, the few others that were either rebirthed and/or cached for the time, for OP: Revival. Which happened another hundred years later. And then the few clans that did involve their Warship fleet(s) found out that the IS didn't have any as they had fought for the SL Throne during their Exodus.

So while that Nightlord for the Warrior Caste could be made, enough clot and resource savvy Scientist / Laborer Caste members would have stalled the construction for more collars. And every clansman would want that, quiaff? As more collars meant more boots on the ground, equaling more glorious honor and isola taken from the enemies of the clan.

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 17 February 2023, 19:56:59
If the official plot needs them to have plans for the Robinson, they will surely have them and be able to build as much as they need.  ;)

For those who are unfamiliar check out the Robison it’s pretty cool! Do the clans have anything similar?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 19 February 2023, 17:45:57
For those who are unfamiliar check out the Robison it’s pretty cool! Do the clans have anything similar?

A Robinson copy would be doable but the Robinson was a Great House ship. Not a former SLDF design. I could see the Potemkin being the 'Go to' design the Clans would go for as a new build.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Jellico on 20 February 2023, 04:59:15
For those who are unfamiliar check out the Robison it’s pretty cool! Do the clans have anything similar?
It is called a Nightlord.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Metallgewitter on 20 February 2023, 05:26:35
A Robinson copy would be doable but the Robinson was a Great House ship. Not a former SLDF design. I could see the Potemkin being the 'Go to' design the Clans would go for as a new build.

Well lore wise there could be the use of Samarkands as a go to measure for copying transport ships. Several Clans seemed to have Samarkands in their caches (probably remnants from either material transfer to the SLDf or even spoils of war from the Combine). Though IIRC they were all reactivated and then lost during the Wars of Reaving. In other cases I would say Potemkins or perhaps even Carracks as transport ships
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Sjhernan3060 on 20 February 2023, 07:28:39
It is called a Nightlord.

Nah way too big and pricey for a budget minded clan
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Jellico on 20 February 2023, 14:33:17
Someone writing TRO 3057 decided Warships carrying battalion of Mechs was a good idea. Hence the Kyushu and Nightlord.
The Robinson is an extension of that.

If that isn't enough, go check out the Corone.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 21 February 2023, 12:25:34
Someone writing TRO 3057 decided Warships carrying battalion of Mechs was a good idea. Hence the Kyushu and Nightlord.
The Robinson is an extension of that.

If that isn't enough, go check out the Corone.

Pretty much what a Fox was designed for. Transport your invasion force and give it cover after it hits the ground. Hopefully not with the Fox itself.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 22 February 2023, 12:06:14
So could carriers be the future of CBT warships (carrying dropships (standard and pocket warships) and aerospace fighters)?

Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: AlphaMirage on 22 February 2023, 12:13:41
So could carriers be the future of CBT warships (carrying dropships (standard and pocket warships) and aerospace fighters)?

I think carriers probably actually would have been a better start but I don't think that would be the best choice for the ilClan era. Pocket Warships probably are unfortunately because they are capable of ground pounding and decent in a universe without many other proper warships
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Jellico on 22 February 2023, 14:26:36
Ask what do WarShips do that other platforms don't? Essentially they are a properly armored jump core. So yes. Carrying stuff into hostile environments is probably what they are best for.

The problem is capability comes with size. A Fox isn't very survivable so gigantism is inevitable. Gigantism encourages ather capabilities and suddenly your WarShip is a narrative problem.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Gaiiten on 22 February 2023, 14:44:14
But is in a game of domination gigantism of weapons a neccessary tool?
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Stormlion1 on 24 February 2023, 19:32:30
Building that Fox with its multiple Docking Collars and armor and guns of course creates the need to create something to kill that Fox. A Destroyer or a Cruiser and of course the builders of said counter will want to add everything and the kitchen sink. It's how Arms Races start and continue. We saw that in the Star League. We even saw it in the 3050's once warships were on the table again.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Cannonshop on 25 February 2023, 00:49:00
Ask what do WarShips do that other platforms don't? Essentially they are a properly armored jump core. So yes. Carrying stuff into hostile environments is probably what they are best for.

The problem is capability comes with size. A Fox isn't very survivable so gigantism is inevitable. Gigantism encourages ather capabilities and suddenly your WarShip is a narrative problem.

Your warship becomes a narrative problem the moment you hyper-focus on a single role and forget that interstellar distance can't be spanned by walking, or even interplanetary distances, and when you persist in ignoring that even inside a solar system Space is Big, depending on orbital period a trip from earth to mars can run anywhere from a month, to nine months or more.

Earth. To. Mars.

at newtonian speeds, months to get Anywhere.

means your dropships have to be pushing physics-breaking speeds to be adequate for anything but immediate orbital control over a planet.

For that mission, smaller warships become a lot more pragmatic, as does any situation where you need to make maximum use of a limited pool of trained personnel, such as patrol and coverage missions. (If you can't shit out a thousand Potemkins a week, and staff them, you might wanna consider something..smaller for your recon and flank security needs.)

Dropships don't work to monitor 'deadspace' systems pirates and smugglers will use to get around your border security, don't work for collecting intelligence ahead of your offensive, counter-offensive or antipiracy roles, don't have the ability to get a message to fleet when there's a big-damned-invasion just hit a planet and the HPG's are still down, don't move messages on a strategic level to let you coordinate SOME KIND OF RESPONSE to a probing attack...

there's a lot more uses than "Bus for battlemechs" or "Flying atrocity factory".

Droppers work...in close orbit or when linked to a jump-capable ship near a stable point.  They don't have the legs or the time to be much use anywhere else, which is fine, because the current state of the game doesn't really ALLOW for strategic scales, every tabletop is by definition a fixed position battle.
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 25 February 2023, 01:04:50
Question:

What would a " Fleet " should look like?

I mean I was watching the AHC history channel the other night about assigning a CVE with 4 DDEs and a Liberty or two to act as long range refuelers for the Convoy fleets " Support ".

What would this translate to in BTverse?

TT
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: Cannonshop on 25 February 2023, 01:55:39
Question:

What would a " Fleet " should look like?

I mean I was watching the AHC history channel the other night about assigning a CVE with 4 DDEs and a Liberty or two to act as long range refuelers for the Convoy fleets " Support ".

What would this translate to in BTverse?

TT

DO you love paperwork?   does the prospect of spending hours upon hours doing paperwork excite you?

Does the prospect of having to work up multiple databases the size of a mid-eighties urban phone-book get you all a-tizzy?

Navies operate on Details.  Details like logistics trains, allocation of resources, fuel, and personnel rotation, food...because you can't just pop out the airlock and go grab a to-go-order of eats at midnight in the middle of a patrol.

And warships, dropships, and jumpships don't generate their own food supplies...or air, or water.

Or fuel.  (at least, not without equipment carried specifically to do it, and trained personnel who can identify the right cometary content...)

everything is finite.  You have your ship, the air in that ship is all the air you get to have, your life support scrubbers and recycling are all that stand between you and turning bluish-purple as you suffocate.

water? same thing.  Storage tanks and what recycling equipment you have, is all that keeps your tongue from swelling and spliting in your dry mouth as you die of dehydration.

which is one of the nastier ways you can die, just in case you're wondering.

Imagine your environment.  You have 'inside the ship' (or station) and that's only safe and healthy as long as you have the power and the maintenance slack to keep it safe and healthy.

Outside, is millions to billions to infinite kilometers of one atom per cubic meter, which will kill you if you go out there without a suit.

This is a very different paradigm to 'mech combat, where being outside your mech is risky, but not instant death without full life support in most cases.

To build your navy, then, is to build a force that is operating in a supremely hostile environment, where mistakes or negligence will kill you faster than enemy action.

You're going to want to start with your logistics-the movement, and distribution of things like air, water, food, fuel, and spares.

It doesn't matter how many guns you have, if your crew is dead.  Feel me here?

Everything is finite, everything must be actively maintained, or your crew dies and your ships become worthless.

SO, you begin with Logistics, but what you REALLY begin with, is training and selection, because while Petey-the-huge might be amusing when he mistakes the side of the barracks for an outhouse since he didn't grow up with running water, he'll kill himself and everyone else if he tries to go outside for a quick piss on the side of the ship (and leaves the door open).

automatics can solve some of that-if they're maintained.  That's part of your training AND your logistics. (If you can't fix the door seals because you don't have the stuff, you can't fix the door seals and you'll run out of air pretty fast with a leak.)


Supply chain also counts as a Navy mission, since if your supplies can be easily destroyed or hijacked, you can't maintain a navy.

This is a critical-to-your-survival thing.

In general terms, you either want lots of colliers per active combat ship to provide those supplies, or you want big ones that can service several combat ships simultaneously.  Either way, "Bulk Dropships are your friend", because you don't strictly NEED a warship to carry them, and lots of civilian jumpships can haul those supply mules around, or chain them forward for quicker resupply.

Now, you can't have your ships constantly on deployment.  the lesson of the Kuznetsov is worth learning: if you have to run your power while docked, you're going to wear out your power generation gear, and end up breaking down when you actually go to sea. 

Stations aren't invulnerable fortresses.  They're highly vulnerable supply points and targets.  Treat them accordingly, and protect them accordingly.

What you saw in 'Ilclan' or Kerensky's march on Terra? is what happens when a ground general (and political appointee) designs your Naval defenses and fails to understand that space is not only big, but three dimensional.

With vERy, very, very, long distances where you can be seen, but you might not see if you're not looking the right way.

Because competent spacers don't fall out of the womb pre-trained and grown in large lots, you're going to want to maximize your available officers to give the best coverage you can get.

This tends to NOT mean an emphasis on dropships, unless that's all you can build, in which case, your dropships are subordinate in value to the jumpship that hauls them.

Doesn't sound fair, right? the dropships/pocket warships have all the guns, after all...

but they lack the ability to go anywhere in a timely fashion, which is something you critically NEED with a Navy.

To put it in perspective for you, a 'hexmap' covering the earth/moon system alone, just itself, at 18,000 meters per inch hex?

You're getting into "cover the basketball court with one inch hexes" territory.

18,000 Kilometers and you're still exceeding the size of most large dinner tables (or living room floors!)

Space, is Big.

adequate patrol in just the Sol system would pretty much require jumpships to cover it, or jump-capable combat ships.  Most of whom will need 1 to 2 weeks each between hops.

BUT, a jump-capable force sitting at Titan's L1 can respond to an incursion or assault at earth/luna L1 weeks before a non-jumping ship can make the transit at closest orbital approach.

Hours instead of weeks.

Minutes instead of Hours for going from Earth/luna L1 to either close orbital Earth, or close orbit Luna-which is where your dropship shines, but if you don't protect that jumpship?

that's where your Dropships must remain until you can find a replacement-they're not going to be able to respond in a reasonable amount of time to a second force hitting the base at Titan after the diversion force has either left , or been defeated.

Jump capable with an LF battery can actually do that-that is, react and deliver some power and violence upon the intruders in a reasonable span of time.

Up from there, is the offensive role...which is NOT hanging in low orbit to be shot down (FSS Lucien DAVION!!).

Offense roles include, but aren't limited to:

1. Recon-going to other places to look around before you risk your expensive ground units on a raid or attack.

2. Moving info: this is both an offense, and defense, function.  HPG's down, you need to know about an attack? it's unlikely that the Dragaus or Overlord C or A3 or other PWS is going to be much good here, it can't leave the system on its own.  a gunless jumpship CAN.  Even an explorer class rich-people-yacht is more useful in this role than a thousand pocket warships.

3. Raids and spoiling attacks, strikes and commerce raiding.  These are bread-and-butter missions on the offense, and require strategic mobility to be of any value at all...even if both sides are in the same system on different moons or planets.

4. Ground forces/ Invasion insertion or extraction: the transport mission.  "Bus-driver for BAttlemechs".  This usually works better if you have good intel and scout ahead.


with the roles figured out, the equipment should be self-evident.

a few things to contemplate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSDtGXW7J7I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSDtGXW7J7I)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgIJEWv7Hdw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgIJEWv7Hdw)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aX3fXVcQ-Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aX3fXVcQ-Q)
Title: Re: Growing your fleet
Post by: truetanker on 26 February 2023, 01:23:54
I got book one thru seven read...

Unto the twenty others...

TT