Author Topic: Growing your fleet  (Read 73012 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #120 on: 25 October 2018, 12:35:05 »
Ravens had some . . . but I think they had some doctrinal problems with getting Vet let alone Elite crew . . . after all, the lower castes who run the ship are just cogs- another piece of the machine to be replaced when needed.  So would a Clan warship commander spend the time on crew drills?  Reactor shut downs, ship board fires, reloading drills, battlestation drills, damage control, etc?
Colt Ward
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Robroy

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #121 on: 25 October 2018, 13:24:32 »
He would if he wanted his ship to survive a battle.

Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Way (Tao) to survival or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed"-Sun Tzu

"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence"-Sun Tzu

Colt Ward

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #122 on: 25 October 2018, 14:52:15 »
But for most of Clan history they did not fight any Trial with anything approaching battle conditions.  They fought until X amount of hits on armor, maybe hull breach or some other artificial condition designed to test skill of the CO while maintaining the hard to replace asset.  The ONLY times they really fought as warships would have been during Op Klondike and it really did not come up again until the Jags faced the Second League . . . and then, did the Clans learn from what happened to Jaguars- and in one case Bear- warships?  HIGHLY unlikely since, well its the Jags they are obvious failures since they let the Inner Sphere defeat them- besides who was present except maybe Falcons on Huntress to watch?

So yeah, the Ravens and other Clans would have Star League Defense Force FM 6-66, 'How to Warship' and know that they need so many drills a week/month/year to check the boxes . . . but a couple of things.  First, the warriors in command of the ship, piloting/nav, tactical . . . are they really going to care about them outside of 'shooting' for due diligence?  We have plenty of fluff bits of Star Colonels and Galaxy Commanders who advanced on their tactical prowess who were hopeless in leading let alone supporting their clusters- clueless at logistics, reading a strategic map, etc.  "I do not care about anything but firing my Heavy NPPCs, do what you need to feel comfortable Tech Zec, but I want those HNPPCs firing when I press the big red button or you will be out the airlock!"

Second, are they going to try to keep the crews together to avoid constant transfers that hurt team cohesiveness?  does the saKhan (who is in charge of the touman's operations) understand the need to transfer engineering department heads to spread around experience- do they even recognize (or have a deputy/staff) qualified personnel?  especially when they are likely a Mechwarrior or Elemental, and most likely totally unfamiliar with warship operations?

Third, does any warrior officer or their technical subordinate have experience in say damage control, fighting ship fires in zero-g?  MAYBE some in accidents, but during that time any knowledge of damage control operations has long since lapsed . . . all those pros from the Aramis wars were beached along with a lot of other Star League personnel.  They died during the Exodus civil wars or were shuffled off by the proto-Clans and it appears the Ravens were the only ones who ended up with anyone who had a clue about ship operations.  And the Clans really had no period where they really gained any warship combat experience- instead playing simulator battles or tag with weapon systems.

Finally, 'if he wanted his ship to survive a battle' assumes they have institutional knowledge . . . and a manual that is written with a shared history/viewpoint is not going to be completely understood by someone with a dramatically different view as the Clan culture would generate.  The example I know best is look at the artillery topics, I am willing to bet some people scratch their heads over things that Charlie 6 & I have discussed as doctrine even when we have taken time to explain to laymen.  Because from our personal history and viewpoint there are concepts we take for granted (think of any jargon you know as your job)- TOT, hip shoot, masking terrain, danger close, back blast, safety T, and others.  He was a Marine and I was Army but we were both artillery and could discuss those concepts.  If we had a Brit artilleryman, they would be able to drop into the conversation and understand even with the larger cultural background gap.  Not sure if a Russian or Chinese military individual would get the jargon but they would understand the concepts.  But if I were to talk to one of Ghengis mounted warriors, he would be clueless . . . heck, I could talk to a Navy ASW type and even though we both used NATO equipment they are not going to understand all the unspoken information.

So while the Clan warship commander may have a perfectly preserved set of manuals and even simulator programs in their warship memory banks, and they use a Star League built ship & equipment . . . they are not going to understand the underlying meaning in any of the material they inherited.
Colt Ward
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Robroy

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #123 on: 25 October 2018, 18:13:30 »
I get where you are coming from. A am Navy myself, damage control / repair. I am saying I can not picture even the Clans neglecting damage control drills. Accidents happen. Small craft botched landing, hope smash and crash crew gets it under control fast. Heck, with some of the light armor on some SLDF ships I would be worried about a micro meteor thresholding. My ship never got hit by anything but I lost count the fires I fought. Things are going to go wrong even when not in combat, and the first time it does and that trueborn is faced with the fact that a trial of grievance will not save him from sucking vacuum, he is going to really hope the crew know what they are doing.

Like I used to start my damage control class. You have to put out the fire and stop the flooding, the alternative is seeing how long you can tread water.

Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Way (Tao) to survival or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed"-Sun Tzu

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Colt Ward

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #124 on: 25 October 2018, 23:17:04 »
Yeah, the signs & notices on BB-35 from WWII were interesting in that regard.

I just do not think they are going to care enough to get it right.
Colt Ward
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Wotan

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #125 on: 26 October 2018, 08:47:25 »
As i see clan life it is far more space born than that of regular IS military. There is much more interstellar traffic within the homeworlds than in the IS. That said i can't believe the crews do not know how to handle a ship.

But regular daily business is not large scale naval combat. There is a difference between a dropship with ASF fighting through a ASF defense screen and warship flotillas fighting each other.

The clans of the old days are much limited to ground combat. But latest with the WoR they had their share on naval battles. And they know that the IS can build new warships and know to use them, too. I don't see the clans ignoring that fact. They have to look for ways to increase their fleets and train their crews accordingly.

Tegyrius

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #126 on: 26 October 2018, 17:38:44 »
Like I used to start my damage control class. You have to put out the fire and stop the flooding, the alternative is seeing how long you can tread water.

All bleeding, fires, and flooding will eventually stop on their own.  It's just that you may not like the end state...
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Robroy

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #127 on: 27 October 2018, 10:04:53 »
True. The point is not to let it get to that point. There is a very different mind set between Navy and Army, not bad, just different. I asked a friend of mine awhile back, who was Army infantry, about the then current army tag line "an army of one". Apparently the Army is very individually focused, you are responsible for your weapon, your armor. In the Navy it is very team oriented, the ship is the crew's weapon, the armor, and, well everthing. The ship's mission came first before anything else.

Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Way (Tao) to survival or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed"-Sun Tzu

"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence"-Sun Tzu

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #128 on: 27 October 2018, 10:52:44 »
True. The point is not to let it get to that point. There is a very different mind set between Navy and Army, not bad, just different. I asked a friend of mine awhile back, who was Army infantry, about the then current army tag line "an army of one". Apparently the Army is very individually focused, you are responsible for your weapon, your armor. In the Navy it is very team oriented, the ship is the crew's weapon, the armor, and, well everthing. The ship's mission came first before anything else.


Interesting and culturally that just does not mesh well with most clans mindset...

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #129 on: 27 October 2018, 10:58:48 »
Oops prob In the wrong thread!


 To boost your fleet numbers we also have the example of what the ravens did the scorpions during the wars of reaving. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sagitta

Now do we think that this was a sign of the crazy times or something that a small but elite clan like the mandrills or spirits could have tried?

Would this have been a viable option before the Wars of reaving?

Robroy

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #130 on: 27 October 2018, 11:35:43 »

Interesting and culturally that just does not mesh well with most clans mindset...

Generally speaking, yes. Individually, it can vary by clan IMHO, the Ravens being at one end of the scale, then there are some clans that barely have a warship fleet of devote the bare minimum to maintain it. Something to take into account when determining crew quality.

Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Way (Tao) to survival or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed"-Sun Tzu

"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence"-Sun Tzu

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #131 on: 27 October 2018, 12:53:57 »
Getting back to the OP, I have not seen the Comitatus mentioned.  Before they start adopting pocket warships, the Comitatus is about as close to a warship (really a carrier) as the Clans got without actually building a new warship.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Comitatus

The Comitatus has a thick hide for a jumpship, a substantial anti-fighter weapons array, and carries 20 fighters and five small craft internally.  Throw a Titan-C on its single dropship collar, and a Comitatus can project 50 fighters and five NL-42s (or other boarding craft) and their 50 elemental marines.

No naval-grade weapons and the lack of a system drive means it's best used defensively.  But if fully loaded, a Comitatus and a Titan are a substantial threat to many warships.  Double them, and most warships don't stand much of a chance.

For the Blood Spirits, the question is whether they can field that many fighters.  But if they can, getting some Comitati in trade with the Falcons or through trials is probably the Spirits' best option for projecting naval-ish power or neutering incoming warships in Spirit systems.

One other thought is ground-based, naval-grade missiles and energy weapons.  If the concern is defending the Spirits' precious few planets against warship attack, that's also an option short of building/buying/stealing warships.

« Last Edit: 28 October 2018, 19:20:39 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Colt Ward

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #132 on: 28 October 2018, 15:45:18 »
With the way the Spirits are fluffed we never know what their ASF forces are like- since Nic never included them in his original cluster design!  Which is also one of those things that messes with the ground force count for the Spirits.
Colt Ward
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Wotan

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #133 on: 28 October 2018, 16:28:43 »
TRO3067 entry for the Tyre indicates that the Spirits are low on OmniFighters. But is assume that is no surprise.

Colt Ward

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #134 on: 29 October 2018, 10:35:28 »
Sure . . . Omnis, just like they are low on them in their touman.  But that does not say how many standard Clan ASF they have nor SL leftovers.  If you go by the indicators of their grounds forces, that is going to be the bulk of what their field for ASF.
Colt Ward
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Stormlion1

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #135 on: 29 October 2018, 14:40:01 »
The Spirits probably didn't build there own aerospace fighters but got them through trade. Look to there allies production to make a good guess what they would have fielded besided Star League rebuilds.

Something to note for a possible Blood Spirit Flagship idea.  Unlike the Texas or the Liberator Classes which we can account for all the known ships there were several Mckenna's unaccounted for after the Amaris Coup. In fact 18 survived to go with Kerensky but we only have what? Eight known and named ships? Maybe one or two were stripped for parts after the war or lost in the Pentagon Wars but there is a good chance a few might be lost in Fleet Caches somewhere for Clan's that hadn't used them or were annihilated but never fielded them. I could also see Nicky K or even his father parking them as well as other ships in secret caches for a rainy day. In Nicky's case, not assigned to a Clan but as part of a General reserve.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #136 on: 29 October 2018, 15:46:13 »
Eh, no matter the Clan all of them seemed to build the equipment for the four basic branches- mech, armor, BA and ASF.  Only top tier or specialists could build jumpships & dropships (hence why the Ravens & Spirits collaborated for the Arcadia) and especially warships.  So while the Spirits may not have designed their own fighters, or even rarely even variants, they did seem to build them after trading or Trial'ing for rights.  The fluff on the Tyre Michiko to me makes it sound like it was a conversion that was generally adapted- perhaps a change to the factory producing it as well.  The Tyre in general was 'a staple of all Clan secondline forces' due to the introduction of the Omnifighter, but that does not mean as much among the Spirits with their low Omni count overall.

The Issus, another standard ASF, is produced by one of the Spirits trade partners and is one of the 'most common second-line ASF' according to the fluff.  While not named among the top 3 users of the design it does fit with what appeals to the Spirits- SFE and ERLL . . . in fact, their unique Tyre mimics some of the layout of the Issus with the SSRM and 20/24 points of energy damage in the nose.

Another possibility was the Jag's Xerxes which spread to all the Clans after its introduction.  It again has a favorite weapon of the Spirits, the ERLL.  Same for another design the Jaguars gained was the Chippewa IIC (Xerxes uncle?) which had ERLL & LRMs, and aside from the TC and Artemis IV is something that fits the Spirits.

If the Sharks were selling them to the Spirits . . . I could see them liking the new Ammon.  Just not sure what the Sharks would have traded for it . . . protos?
Colt Ward
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Gaiiten

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #137 on: 05 November 2018, 07:30:22 »
If the Sharks were selling them to the Spirits . . . I could see them liking the new Ammon.  Just not sure what the Sharks would have traded for it . . . protos?
Keeping the Star Adders distracted .. especially when the Sharks had to run for their life in the WoR, something you should have taken serious.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #138 on: 05 November 2018, 08:45:04 »
The horses were noted for having a small fleet did they secure any more naval assets before they attacks the wolf OZ?

Gaiiten

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #139 on: 05 November 2018, 09:11:19 »
They got a compact mobile shipyard (HH-1), built by the Ravens.

During the Ice Hellion Incursion they captured the York-class Pack Leader (now Stampede)
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truetanker

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #140 on: 05 November 2018, 21:18:46 »
We got the Armageddon Potemkin, Bucephalus Congress, Stampede York, possible Sleipnir Cameron and one more I can't seem to find.

I do know they lost the three Lola III's to Zeta's Defense, aka Clan Stone Lion.

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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #141 on: 05 November 2018, 21:50:10 »
If your need was fast and cost effective shipping and raider defense would mass producing Congress”s be a way to go? As written they seem pretty great...

Ruger

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #142 on: 05 November 2018, 21:55:03 »
We got the Armageddon Potemkin, Bucephalus Congress, Stampede York, possible Sleipnir Cameron and one more I can't seem to find.

I do know they lost the three Lola III's to Zeta's Defense, aka Clan Stone Lion.

TT

Last I heard, in 3145, Clan Hell's Horses is down to three WarShips...the Bucephalus, the Stampede and the Armageddon...

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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #143 on: 06 November 2018, 20:42:47 »
When the burrocks were absorbed the mandrills captured some of their enclaves “ before control was fully established” could cached warships have been targeted in the sane way or would that be a no no?

truetanker

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #144 on: 06 November 2018, 20:58:32 »
Burrock enclaves would have been more " outposts " than naval caches...

Think of Colonies and factory / mine cities.

More so than just a hull depot...

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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #145 on: 06 November 2018, 21:30:41 »
Burrock enclaves would have been more " outposts " than naval caches...

Think of Colonies and factory / mine cities.

More so than just a hull depot...

TT

Are a clans caches of warships common known ledge?

truetanker

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #146 on: 06 November 2018, 21:49:20 »
Most were parked before the Pentagon Wars, some were removed by then, but most should still be there. Now after the Reavings, I wouldn't bet on anything salvageable to be put back into service without major reworking.

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Stormlion1

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #147 on: 07 November 2018, 06:22:21 »
I'm betting poorer Clans without shipyards spent the centuries stripping parts from parked warships to keep there fleets operational. Lot easier to pull turrets from a parked ship then to bargain depot time from another Clan.
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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #148 on: 07 November 2018, 09:06:37 »
I'm not aware of individual clans having naval caches. There were individual fleets and then the collective Clan cache.
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Gaiiten

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #149 on: 07 November 2018, 09:11:26 »
I'm not aware of individual clans having naval caches. There were individual fleets and then the collective Clan cache.

It is mentioned in WoR for Star Adders and Diamond Sharks, as far as I remember.

I'm betting poorer Clans without shipyards spent the centuries stripping parts from parked warships to keep there fleets operational. Lot easier to pull turrets from a parked ship then to bargain depot time from another Clan.
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