Growing your fleet

[Colt Ward]

An advantage of the Wor was that the almost whole bunch of old SL warships was destroyed/disabled.

Before that the Clans did not have the need for a serious capital ship building program. After the Wor and espeically after the experiences of the batles, wherein capital ships were more than often THE decisive battle factor for victory, I think the Homeclans know they will need a new serious building program for warships.

New warship designs which take account of the lessons of the WoR and the role of the Homeclans as Far-Far-Away interstellar power.

Problem is they do not have the support infrastructure to replace what they lost.  Look at what created the fleet they inherited- those many worlds of the Star League.  Comparatively they have a much smaller- even if you give them more efficient b/c of tech- industrial base than the Terran Hegemony let alone the whole of the League.  It basically comes down to population- a worker doing the standard day/week is still going to create around 40 man-hours of production.  You can use a modifier for the tech level being better, longer shifts and for no weekends (this is doubtful) but even the Clans still have holidays, but you are not going to magically make a single Clan worker to be as productive as 100 or 1000 Star League -era workers.

So all those Star League era ships were lost, and they were a huge reserve of man-hour capital the Clans could use but before did not have to replace.  They are not going to be able to replace the number of ships they lost since they were artificially sourced- they are going to be limited to their own organic growth.

And very likely they will not have a balanced fleet mix, but go battleship mad- it fits with their pre-WoR mindset.

[marauder648]

And during the WoR the Clans lost not only their most knowledgeable ship builders, the Ravens who buggered off to the IS, but the biggest naval facility in all of Clan space at Lum was utterly wrecked.

[rebs]

Once the infrastructure requirements are built up, I could see the clans building a new fleet with a basic level of variety.  IE, some destroyers, some cruisers, some transports, and battleships.  It's the Star Adder mentality that will be guiding the effort.

They have time to do this, and the motivation of that vague genetic deadline mentioned in Wars of Reaving Supplemental.  It's just a matter of when will the new invasion come storming in on their new fleets.   

[Wotan]

They just don't need a fleet as big as the old SLDF. Not even as big as the old exodus fleet. They need less than what was active in the WoR as the IS have not started a real warship program after the Jihad as far as i know.
We can assume that not all battle losses in the WoR were total losses. So there might be some salvage.
We can also assume that even in the WoR not all mothballed ships were activated.
We know that the clans in their high were able to create and produce a massive ship like the Leviathan in relative short time - more so on the Leviathan Prime. So i assume that the clan shipyards are far superior to what we have seen in the Star League era.

Sure i do not expect to see clan fleets with hundreds of warship squadrons. But they can bring much more naval fire power in a new invasion than the IS is able to handle .... as long as the writers want to do so.

[Ruger]

We can also assume that even in the WoR not all mothballed ships were activated.

I believe I remember reading in WoR or the Supplemental that the Clan caches were empty of WarShips.

Ruger

[Gaiiten]

I believe I remember reading in WoR or the Supplemental that the Clan caches were empty of WarShips.

It is mentioned that the naval caches of some Clans (as to the Star Adders) are empty. But it is not mentioned that all naval caches have been depleted.
I think there might have been some left (maybe a dozen or so, and maybe some designs we do not have gotten Clan updates (a Farragut C and/or Soyal C would be very appreciated  :) ).

While they lost the Ravens, the most powerful warship, the Leviathan Prime, was built by the Steel Vipers. They were not a very economic powerhorse, nevertheless they were capable to construct this super ship. If the Homeclans want to have such ships and an effective warship-building industry they will do this.
They will need time but time they have (60 years no contact to the Homeworlds in 3150, the Homeclans could be a military superpower again).

What you may underestimate is the level of automation the Clans`industry has achieved. This level must be very high and advanced, this will help them, either.

[Elmoth]

If you need workers on short order, just iron womb a few hundred thousand of them. In 20 years you have all the construction manpower you want.

[Sjhernan3060]

It is mentioned that the naval caches of some Clans (as to the Star Adders) are empty. But it is not mentioned that all naval caches have been depleted.
I think there might have been some left (maybe a dozen or so, and maybe some designs we do not have gotten Clan updates (a Farragut C and/or Soyal C would be very appreciated  :) ).

While they lost the Ravens, the most powerful warship, the Leviathan Prime, was built by the Steel Vipers. They were not a very economic powerhorse, nevertheless they were capable to construct this super ship. If the Homeclans want to have such ships and an effective warship-building industry they will do this.
They will need time but time they have (60 years no contact to the Homeworlds in 3150, the Homeclans could be a military superpower again).

What you may underestimate is the level of automation the Clans`industry has achieved. This level must be very high and advanced, this will help them, either.

Thumbs up for a Farragut C

[Knightmare]

If you need workers on short order, just iron womb a few hundred thousand of them. In 20 years you have all the construction manpower you want.

Still need to build all those wombs and have the caste members available to oversee the operation. Then, facilities to clothe, feed, care for, etc. your new babies until they can join your workforce. Not impossible, but certainly not on the scale you’re talking about in the time period you’re suggesting. Plus, big population jumps won’t be easy with state of the remaining homeworlds after the WoR.

[dgorsman]

Isn't the iron womb system reserved for the warrior caste?  Things would have to change significantly to expand it to the "working classes".

Also, is anyone aware of any germanium bottlenecks in the homeworlds?  Aside from likely fragmentation between multiple clans, requiring political compromises for trading between merchant castes or repeated trials.  A few Warships wouldn't be a problem but a large scale production effort would certainly bring this to the fore.

[rebs]

The iron wombs would indeed be controlled by the warrior caste.  But washouts happen, and then are assigned to lower castes.  The given touman would have to have enough capacity to accept 1,000 to 10,000 (or more) warriors from a 120k birthing.

[Wotan]

Isn't the iron womb system reserved for the warrior caste?  Things would have to change significantly to expand it to the "working classes".

True - but the clans also have to increase their breeding rates to bolster their depleted warrior ranks. So with every increase on the warrior side, you automatically increase the number of washedouts and bolster your labor caste.

With all the damage from the WoR is still don't see the homeworld clans devastated like the IS after the 1st and 2nd SW. The clans still have their scientists and knowledge. They still have many factories and mining facilities, even some naval yards. Sure they need time to restructure, repair and rebuild. But if they don't face the next internal conflict and focus on a new invasion, they have time to build a force (in space and on the ground) that can endanger the whole IS.
And if the Adders are still in the lead they will not attack without a plan and without confidence that it will work.

[Sjhernan3060]

So I am really getting into kindraa mick kreese which is noted as a Crusader minded and aero focused faction. They control two warships but if they wanted to increase their fleet with their limited resources what would make more sense? Trialing for a mothballed ships or saving up to buy new?

If the ship in question was a destroyer or escort ship vs a cruiser would that change your answer?

[Colt Ward]

Question is, who will they have repairing or building that new (to them) ship?

Does no good to get a ship from the Caches when its unable to do anything . . . IMO that would be like throwing blood in the water after they went to that difficulty.  Would the Cobras, Sharks, Ravens or Vipers like a new ship?



If we are talking about getting a ship out of mothballs, my answer is always Kimigure.  Maybe a side of LF Monsoon for a 'transport.'

[Sjhernan3060]

Question is, who will they have repairing or building that new (to them) ship?

Does no good to get a ship from the Caches when its unable to do anything . . . IMO that would be like throwing blood in the water after they went to that difficulty.  Would the Cobras, Sharks, Ravens or Vipers like a new ship?

If we are talking about getting a ship out of mothballs, my answer is always Kimigure.  Maybe a side of LF Monsoon for a 'transport.'

Is there a difference between cached and mothballed ships?

[rebs]

Is there a difference between cached and mothballed ships?

No, the only difference is nomenclature in use.  Cached warships are mothballed, mothballed ships are cached...

[Sjhernan3060]

No, the only difference is nomenclature in use.  Cached warships are mpthballed, mothballed ships are cached...

Got it thanks.

And many ships which were cached were in fine working order right? After the adders absorbed the burrocks they cached several warships that they did not need

[rebs]

Got it thanks.

And many ships which were cached were in fine working order right? After the adders absorbed the burrocks they cached several warships that they did not need

That depends.  If any of them were damaged and no one could take the time and resources to repair them, they may have been put into mothballs in a damaged state for repair at a latter time.

[Ruger]

Got it thanks.

And many ships which were cached were in fine working order right? After the adders absorbed the burrocks they cached several warships that they did not need

There were a few instances at least of cached ships not being able to be brought back up to snuff. IIRC, for instance, the Cloud Cobras tried to reactivate a New Samarkand (II?) - class carrier, and couldn't get it in working order.

Ruger

[Colt Ward]

There were a few instances at least of cached ships not being able to be brought back up to snuff. IIRC, for instance, the Cloud Cobras tried to reactivate a New Samarkand (II?) - class carrier, and couldn't get it in working order.

Ruger

I am going to say that is a economic/feasibility angle . . . they probably could not do it at a reasonable cost.  If you willing to spend 10x the original cost of the ship you could probably do it.  But why when you could get the Ravens (before Reavings anyway) to build a brand new York?

[Knightmare]

Exactly.

And why build a York when you can build, supply, field, etc. galaxies of ground troops, DropShips and JumpShips that can hold assets, win trials and cover themselves in glory?

[Sjhernan3060]

Exactly.

And why build a York when you can build, supply, field, etc. galaxies of ground troops, DropShips and JumpShips that can hold assets, win trials and cover themselves in glory?

I think that was 100% true until jags died and esp in the WOR, clans with big fleets had a huge advantage that was damn hard to overcome

[Colt Ward]

Restoring a mothballed ship to function can take just as long or longer than going with a new build for the simple reason of you have to GET to the components that are being replaced.

[Wotan]

And many ships which were cached were in fine working order right? After the adders absorbed the burrocks they cached several warships that they did not need

In fact the Adders mothballed them because they couldn't maintain all the ships of their increased fleet at once. Their new yards were damaged in the trial and needed some repair before maintenance could be covered for all ships.

[Sjhernan3060]

Would it be possible to set up a lease to own deal? Say the buying clan would promise x percent of production of a certain unit plus whatever down payment they could make

[Wotan]

Everything is possible as long as both sides agree

[Knightmare]

I think that was 100% true until jags died and esp in the WOR, clans with big fleets had a huge advantage that was damn hard to overcome

True, but the WoR were such an unexpected deviation from the Clan "norm." The phrase, "well that escalated quickly" is an apt description of the WoR, with a rinse and repeat component. 

[Sjhernan3060]

For a resource poor clan like the spirits and or kindraa mick kreese would the military grade carrack be a good option to bulk up their fleets?

Can someone point me to the warship of the week article for the carrack if there is one?

[Gaiiten]

True, but the WoR were such an unexpected deviation from the Clan "norm." The phrase, "well that escalated quickly" is an apt description of the WoR, with a rinse and repeat component.

Well, does war not ever escalate quickly?
And the more pwerful weapons you have the quicker this happens.

[Wotan]

It was the first full war in centuries within the homeworlds. An event not known for generations. Everything else before was done via trials. Even the fights on York between Star Adders and Blood Spirits while no longer bound to zellbriggen weren't evolved to that stage of full war.