WarShip Write-Up: The McKenna Battleship

[Jellico]

Panzerschiffs fill a treaty created gap that wouldn't exist otherwise and really only existed till technology caught up.

Remember we are in a game where rule of cool applies and a lot of ships were created because they sound cool. It just happens if you stare at the classes, dates, and numbers long enough patterns emerges which don't always match the current day.

So yeah. Luxors exist because rule of cool. Heavy cruisers yay. There is huge gap between them and the Aegis refits. The best arguement that I can find is some kind of escort or cheaper supplement to the McKenna, in a similar way to the Riga IIs.

[UnLimiTeD]

I think Luxors are pretty awesome, all stats considered. Well, ok, they make just as much sense as most things in battletech, but I guess we'll just have to swallow that pill sometimes.

[marauder648]

Luxors are basically battlecruisers in all but name, they are better protected than any other preceeding class and if anything they are more like the USN's Des Moines class heavy cruiser, a cruiser class that was bigger, heavier, better armed and protected than any other ever built. 

Role wise they are escorts for the McKenna, and we'd probably see a new generation of Destroyer come out to join the newer wave of ships that came with the McKenna and Luxor classes if there had been more time.  A Luxor can challenge almost anything in a house fleet with ease, save the Tharkad class and the Lyran's don't many of those to risk loosing against a hostile cruiser.

The Luxor was 'only' in production for about 40 years, and lets assume they were presume they were popping out 4 a year (double the McKenna's rate) then that gives you 160 in service at the time of the coup.  Given enough time the Luxor would have replaced all the remaining Aegis in service who would have probably been palmed off to the Houses or mothballed along with the unknown number of Avatar's who were technically unreliable.  Once the cruisers are replaced you can start looking at boondoggles like the Camerons and have them start being decomissioned and scrapped as again, the Luxor just outclasses them.

We can assume that at the time the SL was also working on some new battlecruiser class for where a McKenna and buddies were not needed, to act more as a squadron leader for the Luxor's.  The 'frigate' role is taken by the Sovietski Soyuz whilst we can assume a new destroyer might start being produced as well to replace the aging Lola III's and Essex II's.  Or might we see more widespread production of the then very new Riga II to fill out this role?

[Jellico]

Luxors are basically battlecruisers in all but name, they are better protected than any other preceeding class and if anything they are more like the USN's Des Moines class heavy cruiser, a cruiser class that was bigger, heavier, better armed and protected than any other ever built. 

Let's just step away from WWII here for a bit. The ships that served were artificially constrained which produced some odd outcomes like a bonzai tree. For example the 8" cruiser would probably only have flourished in the USN.

Role wise they are escorts for the McKenna, and we'd probably see a new generation of Destroyer come out to join the newer wave of ships that came with the McKenna and Luxor classes if there had been more time. 

You know about the Riga IIs right? I even mentioned them in my earlier post. And strictly speaking what does a Luxor add to a McKenna TF as an escort? Okay, another 500 point broadside, but with all those twin NAC25s and 30s it can't bracket usefully at long range. It is a brawler with a similar style of weapon load to a Riga II. In that context it is a speed bump to put in between an enemy and the McKenna. Sure it is more expendable than a McKenna, but the Riga II is cheaper with a higher armour ratio.

A Luxor can challenge almost anything in a house fleet with ease, save the Tharkad class and the Lyran's don't many of those to risk loosing against a hostile cruiser.

The Luxor was 'only' in production for about 40 years, and lets assume they were presume they were popping out 4 a year (double the McKenna's rate) then that gives you 160 in service at the time of the coup. 

This number is pure speculation.

Given enough time the Luxor would have replaced all the remaining Aegis in service who would have probably been palmed off to the Houses or mothballed along with the unknown number of Avatar's who were technically unreliable.

p224 TRO3057
Mitchell Vehicles developed the Luxor-class heavy cruiser in response to the
Star League Naval Command’s search for a ship to replace the Avatar-class cruiser.

p222 says Avatars were still in service in 2766.

There were 106 Aegis built (p55 Battlespace) which the Avatars were intended to replace along with the Darts. There simply aren't that many ships for the Avatar to replace and by extension not that many Avatars for the Luxor to replace. Certainly not 280 which would be the aim of a cheaper LF battery capital ship. 

Once the cruisers are replaced you can start looking at boondoggles like the Camerons and have them start being decomissioned and scrapped as again, the Luxor just outclasses them.

We can assume that at the time the SL was also working on some new battlecruiser class for where a McKenna and buddies were not needed, to act more as a squadron leader for the Luxor's.  The 'frigate' role is taken by the Sovietski Soyuz whilst we can assume a new destroyer might start being produced as well to replace the aging Lola III's and Essex II's.  Or might we see more widespread production of the then very new Riga II to fill out this role?

Timelines and numbers.
There is a cluster of LF battery heavy cruisers around 2550 then nothing until 2727. To me that says the heavy cruisers were used as a test platform for LF batteries then after service in the Reunification War a battleship was deemed a better use of the technology in 2652.

There are two clusters of battle cruisers. Firstly the Black Lion and original format of the Quixote around 2350. These ships have totally alien requirements by modern standards. Secondly around 2680 with the Cameron and Black Lion II. Interestingly around the introduction of the McKenna. What do these ships have that the McKenna and heavy cruisers don't? These modern battle cruisers lack LF batteries. I see them as cheap options to get battleship style firepower. Black Lion II is certainly comparable to a Texas or Monsoon in fighting ability. Then look at the numbers. 40 Camerons and 62 Black Lion IIs. 52 Texas. The Texas strikes me as an abreviated class outclassed by the McKenna so never built in numbers. The 280 McKennas give an idea of how many Monsoons and Farraguts needed replacing. The problem is you can't tie LF ships down with standard ships. The Texas, Camerons, and Black Lion IIs effectively become the replacement for the Monsoons while the McKennas become something new.
Outside of those two clusters battlecruisers didin't happen in the SLDF.

Finally your destroyers. The Lola III and especially Essex II are basically brand new. Why would they need replacing? They serve as cheap escorts for standard ships. LF battery ships are expensive, even for the Star League. That is why it pays to think of the SLDF in terms of fast fleet and slow fleet. Riga IIs only exist because of the percieved need to give McKennas space to fight. They have collars to drag even more DropShips along with the LF batteries. Standard ships can hang around with JumpShips. They don't need to extra capacity and cost. And given most transport in the Star League is by JumpShip you again don't want to be tieing down LF battery ships, so there is a role for standard hulls like the Texas, battlecruisers, Sov Soys, Lola III and Essex II for a long time to come.

[marauder648]

Okay so how about this thought then. The SLDF is in essence creating a 'Royal Fleet'.  The McKenna's, Riga II's and Luxors are the QRF, they can move quickly from system to system whilst the main body and bulk of the fleet, the non LF ships can come up behind. 

This does not tie the LF ships to the slower vessels and gives them more tactical flexiblity as they don't have to wait for the non LF ships.  Let the scattered cruisers and destroyers take the initial brunt of any attack and then have the LF ships move in quickly.  With their firepower and fighting strength its more than enough to hold off all but the most massive of threats whilst the rest of the fleet catches up.

[HobbesHurlbut]

Okay so how about this thought then. The SLDF is in essence creating a 'Royal Fleet'.  The McKenna's, Riga II's and Luxors are the QRF, they can move quickly from system to system whilst the main body and bulk of the fleet, the non LF ships can come up behind. 

This does not tie the LF ships to the slower vessels and gives them more tactical flexiblity as they don't have to wait for the non LF ships.  Let the scattered cruisers and destroyers take the initial brunt of any attack and then have the LF ships move in quickly.  With their firepower and fighting strength its more than enough to hold off all but the most massive of threats whilst the rest of the fleet catches up.

I always thought Sovetskii Soyuz was the perfect example of something that may have a royal refit. One that match the original fluff and is meaner and swifter.

[gyedid]

I always thought Sovetskii Soyuz was the perfect example of something that may have a royal refit. One that match the original fluff and is meaner and swifter.

The Luxor matches the Sov Soy's fluff better than the Sov Soy itself.

But this thread is supposed to be about the McKenna. 

cheers,

Gabe

[gyedid]

The Texas strikes me as an abreviated class outclassed by the McKenna so never built in numbers. The 280 McKennas give an idea of how many Monsoons and Farraguts needed replacing. The problem is you can't tie LF ships down with standard ships. The Texas, Camerons, and Black Lion IIs effectively become the replacement for the Monsoons while the McKennas become something new.
Outside of those two clusters battlecruisers didin't happen in the SLDF.

The way I see it--and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one--the Texas and McKenna have the same relationship that the Monsoon and Farragut did until after the Reunification War.  The Monsoon and Texas are the command ships for whole battlegroups, while the Farraguts and McKennas are the beatsticks that form the linchpins of said battlegroups.  You need more beatsticks than ships that tell said sticks where to go and what to do.

Another thing about the Texas is that it was made by a non-institutional shipbuilder who, if memory serves, only built one other class of vessel for the SLDF (the Kimagure), with a seemingly proprietary technology (lamellor ferro-carbide armour) apparently not used by any other builder that normally supplied the Star League navy.  So those factors could all contribute towards the Texas' relative rarity compared to the McKenna.

cheers,

Gabe

[sillybrit]

Unfortunately we don't have the numbers built for the Monsoon and Farragut to be able to declare one as a flagship and the other the main line unit.

Personally, I see the Farragut as just a technological improvement over the Monsoon, with design features refined by the HAF's experiences in the Age of War. The Monsoon was a peacetime design, with the first built 30 years before the beginning of the Age of War, while the Farragut incorporates 50 years of actual combat experience. The Farragut is a much toothier design, with less of a cargo tail, and even has fewer docking collars, keeping costs low (the Farragut is less than a billion C-Bills more expensive than the Monsoon, despite being so much superior in all bar dropship capacity) and thus reducing the financial impact if lost in battle.

The Texas is the product of the later SLDF's requirements and thus is again a peacetime design. It reverts to the 6-collar, large cargo bay theme of the Monsoon, with a similar relatively modest armament, providing much less raw firepower than the wartime Farragut. There is still technological improvement and the Texas was built to be the most survivable WarShip to date, but it's definitely a product of the SLDF's desire for transportation over combat capability, even allowing a reduction in size compared to the Farragut.

The McKenna is something of a combination of the two themes, spurred by an otherwise unexplained doctrinal change mentioned in the Farragut's fluff: it takes the transportation capability of the Monsoon and Texas and the heavier armament of the Farragut, with the latter enhanced by the bracketing capability seen on the Texas. The need to combine both makes the McKenna much bigger than the preceding battleship classes, which together with the addition of the LF battery makes it massively more expensive too, coming out at nearly double the price of the Texas.

Cost obviously wasn't a concern for the SLDF and they equally obviously preferred the McKenna, hence why they built so many more compared to the slightly older Texas. While this could perhaps be seen as proof of a flagship/ship-of-the-line split, with fewer command vessels needed than the frontline killers, the very fact that the Texas lacks a LF battery argues against that. Quite simply, the Texas was built in fewer numbers because, while usable enough to keep in service, it was less capable than the McKenna.

[Jellico]

I get the impression that the Hegemony ran two strands of battleship to avoid block obsolescence more than anything.

TRO3057R describes the Monsoon (2386-2668) as the result of lessons with the Dreadnought (2300-2602).

Farragut(2448-2766 {production ended 2500}) is to replace the Dreanought which was described as the main battleship of the fleet.

Some important numbers there. Naval Gausses prototyped in 2440 (p39 IO). Gives the impression the Farragut was designed as a gunship to show off the new weapon. Production ends 77 years before the Reunification War. Before Bracketing. Before Lithium Fusion (2529).

Stepping back here it is important to remember that a WarShip spends 99% of its time not shooting at other WarShips. Mostly it is boring stuff. It is easy to imagine a scenario where the Collar heavy Monsoon ends up superior in action in the Reunification War to the better armed Farragut. Throw in that it can't bracket and the Farragut is a dead end.

Jump foward to the Texas (2618). Lessons learnt. Collars, Bracketing. Probably to replace the Monsoon which is due to retire in 2668.

It is important to remember the context here. Dumb ships are being built as the lessons of the Reunification War are being digested. Eg the Congress and Cameron whose armaments really belong to the pre-Bracketing generation. One of the lessons learnt is the Kimigure, Aegis, and Avatar rock. LF batteries are cool.

The Farragut is only 60 years younger than the Monsoons and is unsuitable so probably has a target on it too. So we get the McKenna (2652). LF batteries are cool so the McKenna gets one. Some finance monkey does the maths and realises you get more bank for your buck building McKennas than a cruiser, and bang 280 ships later.

By 2680 we are expanding the Fast Fleet. Unfortunately the Texas program has been cut short at 52. Why waste the money?The surviving Farraguts ARE getting old and are unsuitable. All those JumpShips aren't getting enough protection. Queue the Cameron (2688 {faults not found till 2694}) and Black Lion II (2691).


gyedid described the difference as beatstick and command ship. All of the battleships are described as command ships at one time or another. What changes is the doctrine around them. The Monsoon and Farragut were built in an age of short range combat where the utility of the DropShip was unsure. The Texas was built before the strategic mobility of the LF battery was fully digested*. Heck it is arguable whether the Hegemony could have considered an additional fleet of LF battleships without the resources of the reunified Inner Sphere. The 2700s were an age of maturing the doctrine. Giving the fast fleet escorts heavier than a DropShip. A cruiser basically designed for police and asymetric warfare.




*It is facinating to look at the compare the Texas and McKenna to something like the USN Standards and HMS Hood. WWII (especially the extra years and refits the USN got), the Treaties, etc cloud the issue. In popular history the all or nothing Standards are considered visionary compared to the Hood. In truth the USN of the 1920s rightly expected the Hood (and RN cruisers) to kill their scouts, blind them, and take them to pieces. Mobility is a big deal to a mature navy.

[gyedid]

So yeah. Luxors exist because rule of cool. Heavy cruisers yay. There is huge gap between them and the Aegis refits. The best arguement that I can find is some kind of escort or cheaper supplement to the McKenna, in a similar way to the Riga IIs.

Actually we can do better than that.  OOC, the Luxor was introduced for the same basic reason as the -1A1 Charger, to justify the existence of a particular piece of equipment--in this case, the medium Naval Gauss Rifle.  I'm pretty sure it's the only Star League-vintage Warship that mounts them. 

After TR:3057 introduced Naval Gauss technology and retconned it onto several Star League-era designs, we got hulls with light and heavy N-Gauss, but no medium.  Then the modern Successor State Warships are introduced, and at least one (the Avalon) sports medium N-Gauss.  TPTB of the time look over the SLDF ships, and realize there's no hull from that era with a medium N-Gauss.  There's mention of this cruiser called the Luxor that needs to be statted out...

Now back to the McKenna.

cheers,

Gabe

[mbear]

I wonder if one of the McKenna's duties was to transport and support an independent regiment or two. Six Overlords would carry two regiments, and a McKenna arriving in system would definitely be a statement to the local population to quit screwing around. Even units that had their own WarShips would think twice about stirring up trouble when faced with one of these. Deliver an independent regiment or two to investigate a suspected bandit base, then act as high cover for them too.

It'd be a horrible waste of resources for any other state, but the Hegemony could do it.

[mikecj]

That would give an RCT some teeth.

4 x McKenna's and 2 escorts carrying an RCT of Dragoon Regiments

[DoctorMonkey]

That would give an RCT some teeth.

4 x McKenna's and 2 escorts carrying an RCT of Dragoon Regiments

"We have reason to believe someone on this planet mugged a Star League official..."


"Meep..."

[Stormlion1]

I have never beaten a Mckenna except for one time. And I used a Dreadnought to do it in a pick up game. And I still don't know how I did it. I have used massed Foxes, three Avalons, two Texas's and not once have I beaten a Mckenna decisively.

[Hellraiser]

There were 106 Aegis built (p55 Battlespace)

There is a cluster of LF battery heavy cruisers around 2550 then nothing until 2727. To me that says the heavy cruisers were used as a test platform for LF batteries then after service in the Reunification War a battleship was deemed a better use of the technology in 2652. 

Small point of order.
It was 106 Aegis that were left & got pulled out of Mothballs to be Refit or Given to the Houses.
Not 106 total made.

I like your thought on the Cruisers as test platforms.

I was more thinking of the Cruisers & Rigas as being escorts for a few select McKenna groups.

They McKennas were deployed in 3 ways.

Massive Battle Line group  (Including non LFB equipped big gunships)

Single Ships  (As mentioned in the fluff, they can act as a 1 ship taskforce)

Rapid response Flotillas  (A couple of McKennas backed up by some LFB Cruisers/Rigas, to allow you to drop 6 ships onto a target w/ a load of firepower on them at twice the range of everyone else.)

This would allow you to make sense of the 280 ships which is more than almost any other single class.
  (IIRC only the Vincent, Lola, & SovSoy were higher)

[Colt Ward]

Do any still even exist in 3145?

[Hellraiser]

Do any still even exist in 3145?

Homeworld clans IIRC is the only place.
And mothballs around the old TH.

[sillybrit]

I don't see the LF battery being tested on heavy cruisers - and the 10 Monsoons that were retrofitted, don't forget them - before finally being fielded on the McKenna once the concept was proven. I instead see it as purely economics and political demands.

The Star League didn't have the cash available to allocate to such an expensive WarShip as the McKenna after the LF battery debuted, or to role out across the fleet or introduce in additional lesser classes. At first the SLDF will be busy organizing itself into a singular whole instead of the mixed bag that fought the Reunification War, then there's the need to rebuild the Periphery, deliver the economic promises to the Member States, colonize new worlds, allow everybody to enjoy the peace dividend, etc.

The Star League economy really starts to take off with the introduction of the Star Dollar in 2623, so the financial potential for the McKenna is in place. Then there's the political scare of 2650 when the Rim Worlds were found to have greatly expanded their military, with some fearing the possibility of a second Reunification War. That issue gets dealt with, but it would only be reasonable that the military purse strings are then loosened, allowing the SLDF to finally achieve the dream of a large class of LF battery-equipped battleships.

Not every decision is made due to doctrinal or technological reasons.

[Colt Ward]

One other thing I note missing in the original article is that the capital missile launchers have a few different options if using the bearings launch rule.

[Stormlion1]

I wonder what the Ghost Bears did with the Blakes Sword? Probably the only Clan that might have been able to salvage the ship or strip it and rebuild a new ship using the parts.

[Jellico]

Small point of order.
It was 106 Aegis that were left & got pulled out of Mothballs to be Refit or Given to the Houses.
Not 106 total made.

TRO3057 has 30 going to the Houses and 70 to the Hegemony. The 106 number come from Battlespace.

[Liam's Ghost]

So yeah. Luxors exist because rule of cool. Heavy cruisers yay. There is huge gap between them and the Aegis refits. The best arguement that I can find is some kind of escort or cheaper supplement to the McKenna, in a similar way to the Riga IIs.

I assume inertia. "We cannot afford a Heavy Cruiser gap!"

[DoctorMonkey]

I assume inertia. "We cannot afford a Heavy Cruiser gap!"

And apparently the Admiral who shouted "but I kills it with my McKenna" was stifled

[Liam's Ghost]

And apparently the Admiral who shouted "but I kills it with my McKenna" was stifled

Well, the thing is that the Luxor was actually built to replace the Avatar, which was itself intended to replace the Aegis and Dart. The entire concept dates back to a time when "I kills it with my battleships" wasn't yet viable as the primary national defense strategy. I suspect the battleship admirals weren't even consulted, and the ship was ordered because the SLDF just figured that heavy cruisers were something a fleet was just supposed to have.

[DoctorMonkey]

Well, the thing is that the Luxor was actually built to replace the Avatar, which was itself intended to replace the Aegis and Dart. The entire concept dates back to a time when "I kills it with my battleships" wasn't yet viable as the primary national defense strategy. I suspect the battleship admirals weren't even consulted, and the ship was ordered because the SLDF just figured that heavy cruisers were something a fleet was just supposed to have.

A fleet is balanced if it has an even number of McKennas...

[gyedid]

Well, the thing is that the Luxor was actually built to replace the Avatar, which was itself intended to replace the Aegis and Dart. The entire concept dates back to a time when "I kills it with my battleships" wasn't yet viable as the primary national defense strategy. I suspect the battleship admirals weren't even consulted, and the ship was ordered because the SLDF just figured that heavy cruisers were something a fleet was just supposed to have.

They also wanted for things that a McKenna would've been overkill for.  IIRC, the Luxors' first assignments tended to be guarding convoys going to and from the Periphery.  Not something you waste a McKenna on, but OTOH more than what a ship of the Luxor's capabilities should be assigned to.  But remember, this is the same organization whose idea of crowd control was the Magi.

cheers,

Gabe

[Weirdo]

Do any still even exist in 3145?

McKenna's Pride(Clan Grand Council), Sovereign Right(Clan Star Adder), and Lei Kung(Escorpion Imperio). Unless someone goes the usual route of finding a hulk and refitting it, that's it.

[UnLimiTeD]

Fluff-wise, if someone found a usable husk somewhere, would they even still get the necessary parts?
I mean, sure, by the rules everything's available, more or less, but I would assume things like the jump drive and this particular brand of weapons haven't been produced in a while and might be startlingly out of spare parts.

[Weirdo]

Yeah, aside from the missile tubes and their ammo, just about everything would have to be hand-made, or yoinked from the Ravens. And I could think of free things that would piss them off faster than raiding the stocks they need to maintain their own fleet.