Author Topic: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.  (Read 9451 times)

marauder648

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Monsoon Class Battleship.

Length - 1,108 meters
Displacement -  1,310,000 tons
Crew Complement - 648

Background

By the modern era the Monsoon is an ancient ship, with the first entering service 782 years ago in 2368 (assuming the 3150 time scale is accurate), and whilst this is basically ancient history, these WarShips helped shape the Terran Hegemony and thus, the Inner Sphere.

The history of the Monsoon class starts in the 2300’s the Terran Hegemony had its Dreadnought Class under construction, but other regional powers were starting to build answers.  Namely House Davion with their Defender class Battlecruiser.  On paper this ship seemed and sounded formidable, it was certainly faster than a Dreadnought class and packed comparable firepower.

Unwilling to let their established naval superiority slip the Terran Hegemony began work on the next generation of Battleship to produce a vessel that would exceed the Dreadnought class and very firmly hammer home the Hegemony’s domination in space and that it would not be challenged even my a ‘friendly’ power like the Davion’s.

Three hundred and fifty thousand tons heavier than the Dreadnought and five hundred and ten meters long the new Hegemony Monsoon class was a 1,310,000 ton 1108 meter long monster and improved upon the template of the Dreadnought in nearly every metric and would set the standard for Battleship design for centuries to follow.

The first Monsoon’s entered service in 2368, a mere eight years after the Davion’s had constructed their first Defender class and were struggling to build the second ship of the class.  And, with the industrial muscle of the Hegemony they started to produce the new Battleship in greater numbers than any other power could even begin to compete with. 
The Monsoon class also took advantage of the latest developments in spaceship construction and integrated DropShip collars as well as dedicated hangars for the then newly developed Aerospace fighters, of which eighteen could be carried onboard.  This made the ship far more flexible as they could carry DropShips to land tanks and infantry forces and later, Mechs whilst not having to rely on older, DropShuttles and armed shuttles to move friendly forces or act as fighters.  Indeed, with her six DropShip collars a Monsoon could carry a formidable invasion force by herself. This was mirrored by the Dart class Light Cruiser which could also carry six DropShips and would have been the main escort of the Monsoon until the Aegis class was introduced.

Nor did the Monsoon lack for firepower, and unlike the Dreadnought the newer ship also featured energy weapons for long range work as well as missile launchers which could be used to deploy nuclear warheads.  The Hegemony had moved away from nuclear warheads on its WarShips and instead used kinetic/explosive warheads, but still the capability was there.  The Monsoon’s main punch, like the Dreadnought class came from massed ranks of autocannons with NAC-30 and NAC-35’s giving the Monsoon a lethal punch especially at shorter ranges.

Protection was also impressive for the time period with over 2,300 tons of armour plating the ships hull, making her better protected than the Dreadnought and were the most heavily armoured class of WarShip in active service until the later introduction of the Atreus class by the Free Worlds League.

One major failing of the Monsoon class compared to the Dreadnought and Black Lion classes was its thrust rating, at full roar the Monsoon’s three huge thrusters could only generate 1.5g of sustained thrust compared to the 2.5g the Dreadnought could produce.  But in terms of fleet speed, this wasn’t a major failing. The NBC (Naga, Baron and Carson) Destroyers that were the main destroyer arm of the Hegemony fleet could also only produce 1.5g of thrust at full burn and this was repeated with the Aegis and Dart classes.  Only the big fleet destroyers, the Lola I and II’s could go faster with 3g of thrust and the Black Lion battlecruisers forming the ‘fast wing’ of the battle line were capable of 2.5g sustained thrust.

Unfortunately this low thrust rating also made the Monsoon class sluggish to turn and slow to react if she had to roll to present undamaged sections to a foe.  But the cold hard truth of the matter was that there simply was no other ship in service that could step into the ring with the Monsoon.  The Defender whilst fast was horribly fragile and lightly built whilst also being outgunned by the Monsoon and it wasn’t until 2448 and 2552 when the Farragut and Atreus appeared that a ship could seriously challenge a Monsoon in a stand-up fight.

But the Monsoon lost its battle with age.  The class was heavily engaged in the Age of War and worked hard to preserve the Hegemony’s borders and by the time the Reunification War started the class was over 200 years old and refits could only keep them going so long.
Indeed, the class was refitted several times, at increasing expense as more powerful computers, more modern reactors, newer jump cores and the like were installed, but the Monsoon was falling behind with Hegemony and now SLDF doctrine and technology.  But the classes popularity with the Admirals of the Hegemony, many of whom had served aboard these grand old battlewagons kept the class in service and their popularity with the fleets Leadership made it a political and thus hard task to actually retire the class. 

The Reunification War was the Monsoon’s last hurrah, and although there’s no record of how many were lost but we can assume that 20 years of warfare saw losses and heavy damage to many of the class. 
The aged class would be given one last refit following the Reunification War but budgetary drawbacks and reduced military spending as well as the sheer cost of refitting these now very old ships with the very expensive Lithium Fusion battery system saw it limited to a mere ten vessels.  And even this couldn’t keep the class around and slowly the Monsoons started to be decommissioned and put into mothballs and by 2668 the last of the Monsoons was decommissioned and retired.  No longer would proud names like Barham, Thunderer and Richelieu serve with the SLDF, at least until other ships took their names in service.
But this wouldn’t be the end of the classes service.  Several Monsoons were reactivated and given to the Rim Worlds Republic Navy as gifts of a grateful First Lord Richard Cameron to his true and loyal friend Stefan Amaris. Here these ships would serve as the flagships of the RWN until the Stefan Amaris class battleships entered service. 

It is unknown if other Monsoons were reactivated during the Amaris Civil War by either side but what is known that at least one Monsoon class ship was seen departing the Inner Sphere with General Kerensky on Operation EXODUS.  This ships fate is unknown, and it is presumed that any survivors would have been destroyed in the fighting in the Amaris Civil War or picked up by the Great Houses and then expended in the First and Second Succession Wars as there is no known Monsoon classes left in service anywhere in the Inner Sphere.

Design

The Monsoon is a brute of a ship, and one that would still probably be quite respectable in a more modern setting.  If you’re looking for a ship that’s comparable to the Monsoon, take a Cameron and go MOAR, the two ships are broadly similar, big NAC batteries, good armour, slow speed and a smattering of energy weapons and missiles for long range work.

Armour wise the Monsoon’s not bad, until the Atreus class comes along in 2552 does something exceed the Monsoon’s armour protection and this is mainly due to nearly 200 years of learning from the Hegemony.

Fore – 187
FL/FR – 160
AL/AR – 160
Aft – 170

Unfortunately you can threshold this armour with a NAC-20 and above or paired NAC-10’s and really is more akin to a Battlecruiser’s scale of protection, but again, for their time of service this armour was heavy and because bracket firing didn’t exist at the time you had to get fairly close to cause significant damage and this is exactly where the Monsoon wants you.

The Monsoon's hull is also pretty solidly constructed with a Structural integrity rating of 90, which is the same as the Dart Class CL, considerably better than the Aegis (75) and even better than the Texas class which came out many years later (85) so the Monsoon's got a lot of structural strength and does not have problems like the Agamemnon does of having a glass jaw.

At an ideal angle with her broadsides to you, a Monsoon can point a grand total of 3 x NAC-30’s, 6 x NAC-35’s and 6 x Medium Naval PPC’s at you, oh and a single White Shark missile that may or may not be carrying a nuke.  That’s a maximum of 357 points of Capital damage if she hits with the full lot.  That will rip apart anything in service in the SLDF’s inventory, even a McKenna couldn't withstand firepower of that magnitude and only the Mjolnir could take that kind of a beating and have some armour left, oh and a Leviathan II but if you're facing that...I forsee doom.

In the Monsoon's case she's got weapons spread out as follows

Bow

1 x NAC-30
4 x Medium Naval PPCs
1 x White Shark missile launcher

Front Left/Right

2 x NAC-30
3 x Medium Naval PPC’s
1 x White Shark missile launcher

Left/Right Broadside

2 x NAC-35
2 x NAC-35
2 x NAC-35

Aft Left/Right

1 x NAC-30
3 x Medium Naval PPC’s

Aft

1 x NAC-30
4 x Medium Naval PPC’s

Which is formidable for almost any period.  Even most of the House ships we see in TRO 3068 don't match that, not bad for a ship that was introduced nearly 700 years prior.

But, this is a short ranged mix of weapons, the NAC-35’s are big heavy guns which only go out to Medium range for capital weapons, and even if you use bracket firing, you’ll only get a -1 for all the gun mounts save the two triple PPC’s which then, along with the missile launchers are your main long range weapons, and not very hard hitting ones either.  With her lack of thrust the Monsoon really can’t catch opponents and must try and manoeuvre into a position where her opponent must come to her. 
And this is where the Monsoon’s obsolescence comes into play as a battleship.  Technology changed, weapons got longer ranged and more accurate and the advent of bracket firing made fitting large numbers of a type of weapon on a ship more desirable.  This is why the Texas class has those huge 12-gun batteries of NL-45’s.  With bracket firing you lose damage, but gain accuracy with the more weapons there are in a battery up to -4 to hit and the damage loss is then offset somewhat by having either large numbers of guns, or hard hitting ones like the McKenna’s with their fearsome quad heavy naval PPC batteries.

Because the armour levels on WarShips in Battletech is actually pretty darn low, really the first ship that gets a major hit in first will be the one that will win (as they really are glass hammers for the most part).  The Monsoon is built to plod forwards, her weapons bellowing away firing as many shots as you can to get a hit or two at the longer ranges, and at short range where your hit numbers are going to be better the real work of kicking your target to death can take place.  Against a ship that can stand off and fire from long range beyond your effective ability to respond, the Monsoon is in trouble.  And a ship like a Texas class could easily cut a Monsoon to ribbons before the Monsoon can bring her autocannons to bare accurately enough to worry the Texas.
Like 95% of the ships in the setting the Monsoon is also vulnerable to fighter attacks but here she’s not that bad off.  With 18 fighters of her own the Monsoon can have an adequate CAP to deal with hostile fighters and those 6 DropShip collars mean you could load up on Assault DropShips or Carriers of your own.  And I’d honestly expect that a Monsoon would carry at least one Titan class Carrier DropShip into action, as well as Achilles or Pentagon class Assault DropShips for self defence when going into a naval engagement against other WarShips, so lobbing fighters at a Monsoon might not be the quick and easy solution to your Battleship shaped problem either.

The Monsoon also has an absolutely cavernous cargo capacity of 295,637.5 tons or if you take the one that had the Lithium fusion battery, this drops to a ‘mere’ 282,537.5 tons.  They also have 6,000 tons of fuel aboard, far more than the horribly short legged McKenna and its pathetic 1,600 tons.  This means that the Monsoon is able to keep in the field for a long time. 

So, fighting with and against a Monsoon is like fighting against an Aegis or Cameron, they are slow, but are nasty at close to medium range with the odd chance of a longer ranged hit coming your way.  Tough, dangerous up close and not something you want to get into a slugging match at close quarters.

Musings

The lore for this ship makes sense, at least for me, but what comes after with other ships does not.  The Texas class came out in 2618 and was an avatar of the bracket firing technology advantages with her big laser batteries and quad NPPC’s.  And yet two major ships that followed, the Sovetskii Soyuz which was more a fat frigate than a cruiser and entered service in 2742, and the Cameron which came out in 2688 still carry on the Monsoon’s issue of guns mounts that are incapable of bracket firing decently.  A Sovetskii Soyuz could have easily had six-gun batteries of NL-45’s and quad or quintuple mountings for her Medium Naval PPC’s to take advantage of bracket firing.  The Cameron can be excused as her fluff paints her as a disaster designed by a committee who didn’t like one another and who communicated through passive aggressive postit notes.  The Congress does the same with her paltry armament.  Instead the Sov soy, Congress and Cameron all have enough cargo space to lose a decent sized passenger ship in it.  *grumbles about strange design choices that could be easily fixed without going into over optimizing territory*
Oh, and one thing I do like about the Monsoon. It’s a bloody handsome ship.  Unlike the generally god awful 3057 redone designs, the Monsoon seems to be an ode to the 2750 artwork for warships.  Which means its basically an angry tube of toothpaste, but it looks good with it!  It looks like a ‘proper’ space ship and looks like it would very much do you harm.




A Monsoon taking part in Operation EXODUS.





I know its been a LONG time since i've done a Warship, but I hope you folks find this article interesting and as always, thoughts and comments are most welcome!


« Last Edit: 08 October 2018, 01:09:04 by marauder648 »
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Ruger

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It is unknown if other Monsoons were reactivated during the Amaris Civil War by either side but what is known that at least one Monsoon class ship was seen departing the Inner Sphere with General Kerensky on Operation EXODUS.  This ships fate is unknown, and it is presumed that any survivors would have been destroyed in the fighting in the Amaris Civil War or picked up by the Great Houses and then expended in the First and Second Succession Wars as there is no known Monsoon classes left in service anywhere in the Inner Sphere.



A Monsoon taking part in Operation EXODUS.


Actually, that image has at least three more Monsoon-class battleships in it...look below the Congress to the aft of that foreground Monsoon, and you will find another...between the aft-starboard quarter Congress and Sovetskii Soyuz and above the Black Lion to the foreground ship's starboard rear is another...and below that immediate aft-starboard quarter (in relation to the foreground Monsoon) Congress is another...and, IIRC, there is another near the McKenna that has been mostly cut off on the left of the picture in this edit...and I think that there may be another in the top center of the picture, but it's been cut off, and only shows the very bottom of the ship, so it's hard to tell...

Unfortunately, artwork such as this is only representative of the events, and not considered actual canon to my knowledge...

As to the Monsoon-class itself, it is a grand old ship, and appears well worthy of her reputation...

Ruger
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I am Belch II

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That is such a awesome photo of that Monsoon during the Exodus.
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Sjhernan3060

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Angery tube of tooth paste!? Ha very true. Thanks for the write up! I have been diving into the warship lore again so this is great.

UnLimiTeD

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Nice to see another of those articles.
I stumbled on a few sentences, but it's a well done review that relates the ship to other designs of its time, capabilities, politics and all.
Nicely done.

Though one has to wonder who thought it would be a good idea to build a ship with short range and low speed - at least on the drawing board, that seems like a bad idea no matter the time frame.
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marauder648

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I guess you could lore explain it away with them saying trying to make larger engines (which in construction terms you can easily fit it you give up I think 1/4 of its cargo) would have been far more stressful on the spaceframe and simulations revealed significant issues with this, so they slowed it down to make it work better without the ship risking shaking herself apart or warping the hull if you tried to turn it too sharply or something.
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Though one has to wonder who thought it would be a good idea to build a ship with short range and low speed - at least on the drawing board, that seems like a bad idea no matter the time frame.

There's a school of thought that Battleships are meant for saber rattling more than combat. Being able to say you had the thickest armor and the strongest broadside is a huge advantage in diplomacy and arms limitation treaties, even if they aren't on the most effective platform. Add in the fact that the Hegemony had a massive fleet, one with enough cruisers to provide a dedicated squadron to escorting a battleship, and the idea of having a sledgehammer to finish off wounded ships might seem like a good concept.
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Nice to see another of those articles.
I stumbled on a few sentences, but it's a well done review that relates the ship to other designs of its time, capabilities, politics and all.
Nicely done.

Though one has to wonder who thought it would be a good idea to build a ship with short range and low speed - at least on the drawing board, that seems like a bad idea no matter the time frame.

Because you can't hit a damn thing at long range without bracketing which isn't a thing until the end of the Reunification War (2577-2597).

The Congress predates bracketing.

The Cameron is a stuff up.

Cruisers use NACs over NLs and NPPCs because of the more favorable damage to weight ratios. Clusters of 3 NAC20s are adequate because the best damage ratio at long range is achieved with a minimum of 3 guns.

In space speed isn't the issue. Any ship can get very fast and without terrain close distances very quickly. The issue is acceleration which limits how quickly a ship can react to tactical changes.


The Monsoons were decommissioned by 2668. The Pentagon and Titan date from the mid 2600s making their use unlikely. Achilles date from 2540s. I don't have my DropShip list handy but I will find out.

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Unfortunately this low thrust rating also made the Monsoon class sluggish to turn and slow to react if she had to roll to present undamaged sections to a foe.  But the cold hard truth of the matter was that there simply was no other ship in service that could step into the ring with the Monsoon.  The Defender whilst fast was horribly fragile and lightly built whilst also being outgunned by the Monsoon and it wasn’t until 2448 and 2552 when the Farragut and Atreus appeared that a ship could seriously challenge a Monsoon in a stand-up fight.


Given that the Monsoon and Farragut served the same masters, it's extremely unlikely they would face off against each other unless another power captured or salvaged one of either hull and pressed it into service in their own navy.  As I pointed out in the thread on the Farragut, it's more likely that once the later ship entered service, you would likely see them together in Terran flotillas, with the Farragut as the beatstick and the Monsoon as the command element.


It is unknown if other Monsoons were reactivated during the Amaris Civil War by either side but what is known that at least one Monsoon class ship was seen departing the Inner Sphere with General Kerensky on Operation EXODUS.  This ships fate is unknown, and it is presumed that any survivors would have been destroyed in the fighting in the Amaris Civil War or picked up by the Great Houses and then expended in the First and Second Succession Wars as there is no known Monsoon classes left in service anywhere in the Inner Sphere.

In the Prime universe. no.  Interestingly, in the Empires Aflame setting, the DCA somehow ended up with one Monsoon active in its fleet as of 3095.  The Terran Supremacy (successor to the Star League/Hegemony in that setting) doesn't seem to have any, at least not active.

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 Its a ship that the fluff forces you to respect off of sheer service life. Though, the same fluff indicates that much of that service life was due to officers reliving their service, and not service needs.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #10 on: 08 October 2018, 16:27:13 »
Its a ship that the fluff forces you to respect off of sheer service life. Though, the same fluff indicates that much of that service life was due to officers reliving their service, and not service needs.


Actually, they might make sense to operate as fleet flagships rather than front line units - you don't want to mess with one and turning up in one gets you attention; you have plenty of cargo space/DropShip collars to make room for the command staff. That sounds like a good plan for a flagship to me


Oh, in terms of long service lives, look up HMS Prince (1670) - she served from 1670 to 1813 and was made of wood!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Prince_(1670)
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #11 on: 08 October 2018, 16:48:10 »
The remaining Monsoons are a question mark- and I am OK with that situation . . .

We know that a set amount were refit with LF Batteries.  We also know that some were mothballed and some where given/sold to SL 'allies' like other TH/SL ships (Aegis comes to mind).  We do not know what happened to the ones in mothballs at the time of the Aramis uprising.  We do not know what happened to the Monsoons in Aramis fleet.

They would make good colonization ships for Aramis war survivors to go beyond the periphery . . . which would also be why IMO Kerensky would have taken them along, take out any wrecked weapons and you get a pretty big interstellar freighter.
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marauder648

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #12 on: 09 October 2018, 00:35:13 »
Aye and with a cargo capacity of nearly 300,000 tons (which you for real world banana for scale means you could fit the equivalent weight of nearly 3 nimitz class carriers into one) you've got a lot of cargo room to play with already.
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #13 on: 09 October 2018, 06:22:11 »
I like these girls.  Its too bad couple couldn't have been sprinkled into the Great Houses fleets after the Exodus happened. God knows most of them were lacking large warships.  Aside from Free Worlds League, no one seem to had a Battleship. 

Its too bad art work can't count as nugged of possiblity for the ship's extended life.  Monsoon's dropship capacity, would been useful for the Exodus fleet, though she maybe bit short legged, she had cargo hold for the expedition into deep space.  Who knows.

Nice article, Marauder!
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #14 on: 09 October 2018, 07:31:14 »
I'm just glad the Word of Blake didn't have one of these things in their fleet. Somehow I could see them equipping them to be controlled by the Naga Caspar II control ship and slapping a bunch of Dragaus or Tiamats into the docking collars. That would ruin the Coalition's day PDQ.
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #15 on: 09 October 2018, 14:48:52 »
Meh. A Monsoon has the combat capability of a modern cruiser.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #16 on: 09 October 2018, 17:15:28 »
Given there maybe less of handful of "cruisers" left by the Dark Age, Monsoon is better than nothing at all.  xp

I still wish they had filled up the earlier eras when Monsoon was out that she had rival fleets to clash with.  Since there hardly any fleets in pre-Star League era that clashed.  Concordat was just building fleet, but had not never clash with anyone until Reunification War really.

Only one time i remember Age of War, was when the Hegemony struck Free Worlds League fleet at Oriente, prevent trigger happy Captain-General unleashing his fleet against the Hegemony.
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #17 on: 09 October 2018, 17:47:38 »
Slightly off topic...

Combat in the Age of the Hegemony

Extreme Range

Gunnery 4 + Angle of Approach 2 + Extreme Range 6 = 12. I hope I make the ECCM roll. Hey wait. Why are you evading +2.

Long Range

Okay base 10. And you are still evading +2. Plus your ECM.

Medium Range

Okay. You have stopped evading. Base 8 plus ECM. Whale on each other with NACs.

Combat in the Age of the Star League

Extreme Range

Gunnery 4 + Angle of Approach 2 + Extreme Range 6 = 12. ECM and you are evading +2. See that Hellcat II? She just made your ECM go away. Dial bracketing to -3. And I need a 11 to hit you and you can't hit me. Oh I am using lasers and PPCs. I can do this all day.

Long Range

You really want to do this? You are going to stop evading and take a shot with your long ranged NACs?
Gunnery 4 + Angle of Approach 2 + Long Range 4 = 10. So you need 10 + my ECM.
I need 7s. In fact I will do more damage more consistently if I dial bracketing back to -2 and roll for 8s. Oh. You want to evade again. I guess I will just shoot you at 9s.

Medium Range

Oh you made it. Good on you. And you managed to chase away my Hellcat II.
So you need 8s plus my ECM.

I need 8s plus you ECM. But I get to adjust my level of bracketing after my ECCM roll. So while your To-Hit may jump out to 11. I can keep mine at 8. Alternatively if I roll well I can increase my accuracy to -3. But statistically at this range I am best of using -1 so expect me to hang around 7.


I hope this illustrates the difference between the Monsoon/Farragut and the Texas/McKenna. Note the Houses operated without Bracketing up to the Jihad which is why all their ships are essentially brawlers.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #18 on: 09 October 2018, 20:47:17 »
What does ECM give you as modifier?  I'm afraid i'm one those players who just used basic space combat rules.
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #19 on: 09 October 2018, 21:21:50 »
I like these girls.  Its too bad couple couldn't have been sprinkled into the Great Houses fleets after the Exodus happened. God knows most of them were lacking large warships.  Aside from Free Worlds League, no one seem to had a Battleship. 

Its too bad art work can't count as nugged of possiblity for the ship's extended life.  Monsoon's dropship capacity, would been useful for the Exodus fleet, though she maybe bit short legged, she had cargo hold for the expedition into deep space.  Who knows.

Nice article, Marauder!
I remember a discussion on these boards where an objection stated by a few people was that the Atreus never had an era where it was the ship. This appears to have been rectified, with the Atreus as the primary battleship of the Succession Wars. I also think that the Monsoon could have remained as a strategic transport, but the costs of operating it would have been high. Those Monsoons in the Exodus picture make sense within that context.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #20 on: 09 October 2018, 22:49:08 »
What does ECM give you as modifier?  I'm afraid i'm one those players who just used basic space combat rules.

1 per hex. A To-Hit gets +1 for every hex of ECM it goes through to get to the target. Even if it it isn't the targets ECM. So you can shield a ship with another crafts ECM.

Small craft get 1 hex of ECM in the hex they are sitting in. It is also small craft ECM and large craft ignore it. It can be boosted to 2 hexes by an ECM Suite. ASF with an ECM get 1 hex.

DropShips get 2 hexes of large craft ECM. Think a circle like splash damage. The hex the DropShip is in and those immediately around it. This makes any shot +2.

JumpShips, Space stations, and WarShips get 3 hexes.

An ECCM roll removes a certain amount of ECM that the shot passes through. I forget the numbers but it is reasonably common to knock it down by 3.

An Active Probe carves out holes in ECM bubbles. You can set it to either be a circle around the probe in the standard weapon short range bracket or a cone (eg the nose firing arc) reaching out to medium range. Active probes are very powerful and can swing large craft battles if you can get one in the right place.


ECM makes for a more dynamic game. For example ASF have to close to medium range to be able to hit a DropShip. Spotters have value. Nose crits get interesting because they can disable ECM.
Combined with bracketing you are forever adjusting your firing pattern as you never get the same ECCM roll twice. Think of it like changing gears driving a hilly road.

ECM makes large craft safer vs small craft, encourages combined arms, and adds terrain to otherwise empty space meaning more tactical options.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #21 on: 10 October 2018, 04:34:48 »
Which is all just a ridiculously long-winded kludge to compensate for the shortcomings of the first-generation Warships by making them ridiculously hard to hit.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #22 on: 10 October 2018, 04:39:01 »
I remember a discussion on these boards where an objection stated by a few people was that the Atreus never had an era where it was the ship. This appears to have been rectified, with the Atreus as the primary battleship of the Succession Wars. I also think that the Monsoon could have remained as a strategic transport, but the costs of operating it would have been high. Those Monsoons in the Exodus picture make sense within that context.

Despite the fact that it's over 1 million tons, the Atreus has the fittings of a battlecruiser, rather than a battleship.  Stats-wise, the only other non-Hegemony/SLDF ship that comes close is the Tharkad.  And maybe the Soyal, if you take away its mass driver.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #23 on: 10 October 2018, 08:16:41 »
 It all comes down to the strategic significance of cargo.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #24 on: 10 October 2018, 08:43:22 »
I recall the Monsoon's fluff said something about ten hulls being refitted with LF-batteries.  Why not go the extra mile and do an armour refit, increasing protection for the same weight?  Even ferro-carbide would've made the Monsoon competitive with the Farragut and McKenna.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #25 on: 10 October 2018, 09:56:51 »
 While the armor upgrade may have made sense for a heavy transport, as it did not need to be a fast ship, it still would have needed a radical recalibration of firepower to provide some defense in the era of bracketing and Naval Gauss Rifles; no more NAC 35 bubble broadsides for one example. :'(

 At that time, duct tape was likely struggling to keep them together, so they may have needed to be rebuilt. They also likely needed the types of upgrades not in the TROs, such as wiring.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #26 on: 10 October 2018, 11:19:03 »
Yeah . . . you run into real world service lifetime problems that conflict with BT's 'it works forever' motif.  Honestly, I would expect part of the LF battery refit's cost would be rebuilding the ship period . . .

Dismantle it down to the keel spine, which coincidentally tends to be the Compact KF core.  Then structural frames replaced with new materials, etc . . . its the 'old' ship but is it really since its all new parts?
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #27 on: 10 October 2018, 11:33:42 »
Yeah . . . you run into real world service lifetime problems that conflict with BT's 'it works forever' motif.  Honestly, I would expect part of the LF battery refit's cost would be rebuilding the ship period . . .

Dismantle it down to the keel spine, which coincidentally tends to be the Compact KF core.  Then structural frames replaced with new materials, etc . . . its the 'old' ship but is it really since its all new parts?


That would be a matter for the finance committee - refits are fine but new hulls are seen as warmongering or new hulls are creating jobs and stimulating the economy while refits are polishing a [naughty word]
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #28 on: 10 October 2018, 11:43:46 »
Well, the only thing that came to mind was the B-52 . . . service life extended into the 2020s, and now they are talking 2040s.  Modernized avionics, modernized computers, some structural replaced with new composites (more radical suggestions were to replace large portions of the wings's frame with modern composites further extending the life), upgraded weapons pylons to carry the heavier weapons externally, rotary launchers, and more to take the BUFF from its original design in the 50s/60s to now.  Already its been mentioned grandchildren of original crew are (can?) serve on a B-52 . . . extend that to the 40s and you are talking at least another generation.
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #29 on: 10 October 2018, 13:28:59 »
 Theseus's Ship. :)

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #30 on: 10 October 2018, 17:08:45 »
There is a long tradition of ships-of-the-line being rebuilt from quite decrepit states.

The effectiveness of these rebuilds has varied. Probably the key takeaway is that you can't rebuild for frontline service. But you can make secondary service work.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #31 on: 10 October 2018, 17:24:23 »
It's hard to argue a Monsoon couldn't be rebuilt for front line service with the Aegis still hanging around almost eight hundred years after it was first launched and almost six hundred years after it was rebuilt for front line service.
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #32 on: 10 October 2018, 18:45:15 »
Exception that proves the rule.

The initial Aegis rebuild was an emergency measure to get hulls into service. Note immediately afterwards the SLDF didn't build a heavy cruiser for 200 years. The type was superceded by the McKenna.

And then the Star League fell and no one built a WarShip for 300 years. In a world of blind men the one eyed man is king. The only rebuild was what the Clans did to them.

I have never seen a official or fan ship designed for the modern era mimic the Aegis' paradigm of slow speed, short range, and low armor.

Could the Aegis be rebuilt? Of course. I would have to check if a CSF base ship is an ex Aegis. Is it worth it? If you can build a new ship? Probably not.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #33 on: 10 October 2018, 19:53:05 »
I thought the Free Worlds League rebuilt a couple.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #34 on: 10 October 2018, 20:21:39 »
Exception that proves the rule.

That's not actually how exceptions or rules work.

I totally agree that the Hegemony/Star League had no reason to rebuild the Monsoon. I mean, the fluff says it outright, it wasn't worth the effort. And I have no doubt the only other user (the Rim Worlds Republic) lacked the industry or resources to do so.

"Wouldn't" is still not quiiiiite the same as "Couldn't" though.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #35 on: 10 October 2018, 21:37:38 »
 The Terran Hegemony should have sold some rebuilt Monsoons to the Lyrans, who sorely needed the cargo capacity. 

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #36 on: 10 October 2018, 23:51:57 »
I thought the Free Worlds League rebuilt a couple.

Yes, but my understanding is that they were rebuilt to the 2372 specs.  Perhaps an odd mixture of the TR:3057 appearance, but the 2372 armament?  (I prefer the older look, myself.)

Perhaps we need to revive the Aegis thread?  This is supposed to be about the Monsoon...

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #37 on: 11 October 2018, 02:10:48 »
I think the problem with refitting a battleship is that each change needs more costs.  You want more energy weapons, you're going to need new reactors, oh and the wiring/power systems will have to be replaced. Which needs new computers.  Replacing the hull plating with new types probably means replacing a fair bit of the internal supports (get rid of all those age weakened ones whilst you're at it) and this would be a big and expensive job.

Its like going "Reactivate the Iowas".  Problem is, we don't have the capability to make their engine parts any more, nor the experience, so you either have each part built to order (expensive, time consuming) or you replace the engines.  And that sounds simple.  If you're willing to strip off the ships superstructure down to the armoured deck, cut holes in that and lift the engines out before putting in new ones.  You've then got to re-wire the whole ship, remove the asbestos etc etc etc, and its all hugely expensive, to the point that you'd save money by making a new ship.

Same with the monsoons, if you really went for a full rebuild/modernization, you'd proably end out saving money by building a new ship instead of almost gutting a monsoon and rebuilding her from the keel up.
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #38 on: 11 October 2018, 03:38:05 »
Maybe the Monsoons were being secretly replaced.  :D
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #39 on: 11 October 2018, 04:28:33 »
I think the problem with refitting a battleship is that each change needs more costs.  You want more energy weapons, you're going to need new reactors, oh and the wiring/power systems will have to be replaced. Which needs new computers.  Replacing the hull plating with new types probably means replacing a fair bit of the internal supports (get rid of all those age weakened ones whilst you're at it) and this would be a big and expensive job.

Its like going "Reactivate the Iowas".  Problem is, we don't have the capability to make their engine parts any more, nor the experience, so you either have each part built to order (expensive, time consuming) or you replace the engines.  And that sounds simple.  If you're willing to strip off the ships superstructure down to the armoured deck, cut holes in that and lift the engines out before putting in new ones.  You've then got to re-wire the whole ship, remove the asbestos etc etc etc, and its all hugely expensive, to the point that you'd save money by making a new ship.

Same with the monsoons, if you really went for a full rebuild/modernization, you'd proably end out saving money by building a new ship instead of almost gutting a monsoon and rebuilding her from the keel up.

With the Iowa's - isn't there also the problem that noone makes STS steel or the armor steel anymore?
If you were to rebuild them the only sane power plant would be a nuke - they'd burn WAY too much oil otherwise.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #40 on: 11 October 2018, 06:10:34 »
Meh. A Monsoon has the combat capability of a modern cruiser.

Which may or may not have been available to the Coalition. If the Monsoon was left behind in an SLDF/TH shipyard, refitting it should be possible for the WoB. If nothing else, as an engineering exercise in how to refit WarShips.

With the Iowa's - isn't there also the problem that noone makes STS steel or the armor steel anymore?

No, it's more the guns that are the problem. The 16" barrels only last for about 350 rounds and then need replacement/refurbishment. The manufacturer destroyed the molds and parts for making those barrels though.

The STS and armor steel you mention may not be available, but there are other comparable formulations that can be produced with relative ease.
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #41 on: 11 October 2018, 08:39:20 »
Has anyone actually tried pitting a Monsoon against one of the modern cruisers like, say, an Avalon? 

A Mjolnir has more than enough armour to simply outlast a Monsoon, I think.
A Kirishima can simply dictate terms with its speed.
Only the Agamemnon is fragile enough that a Monsoon could actually carry that matchup.

EDIT:  more to the point, how does the Monsoon stack up against the Atreus, New Syrtis, and Tharkad?  The former two were already fielded at the beginning of the Star League era, but the Lyrans don't launch their first Tharkad until the later 2600s, when the SLDF already has the Texas and McKenna.

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« Last Edit: 11 October 2018, 23:49:12 by gyedid »
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #42 on: 12 October 2018, 12:05:53 »
Although I share the interest of some in this thread for real-world naval vessels, there's a thread for that in Off-Topic.

This thread is about fictional space battleships.  Stay on that topic, please.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #43 on: 12 October 2018, 15:27:19 »
Compairing her to her neighbours lets have a looksee

Monsoon vs New Syrtis

The New Syrtis is at the short end of the stick here, she's got far less armour and isn't as structually strong as the Monsoon.  Her weapons are impressive, but, like the Thera, if you was the Captain of a New Syrtis class ship and you suggested going into a gunfight with your ship, the XO would probably order you to step down.  With 120 fighters the New Syrtis can simply drown a Monsoon in fighters before the Monsoon can get close. And the New Syrtis is capable of double the amount of thrust a Monsoon can pump out so can dictate the range.  In reality the New Syrtis' guns are there to keep any enterprising Destroyer or Corvette's away, or closing in to finish off badly crippled foes.  If a Monsoon somehow caught a New Syrtis alone, without any fighters or escorting WarShips then the Monsoon would probably cripple the carrier in a salvo or two.  But if the Syrtis was able to keep the range open and had her fighters, then the Monsoon is dead.

Monsoon vs Tharkad (Article on the Tharkad here - https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=51500.msg1188158#msg1188158 )

In reality these ships are a bit similar.  Both have six dropship collars, although the Tharkad has the far larger air wing (36) and they have similar armour although the Monsoon has somewhat more as well as a more solid hull.  Firepower wise the Tharkad is very well armed with a real mix of weapons, NAC's, PPCs, Gauss rifles and lasers as well as having a heavy anti-fighter armament of Mech scale weapons.  The Tharkad is also faster and able to generate more thrust more quickly. 

But the Monsoon still has one advantage.  By the time the Tharkad comes out, any surviving Monsoon's would have had their fire control upgraded so they can bracket fire.  Basics are you can have up to -4 to hit depending on the number of guns in a mounting.  So the dual NAC-30's can do -1 to hit, or a Texas's 12-gun NL-45's get the full -4.  But this comes at a reduction in the damage done when you hit.  And this tech, cannonically was NEVER shared with the Great Houses and was SLDF/Hegemony propriatary tech forever and always.  Even modern 3067 IS ships cannot bracket fire.

So the Tharkad commander, if he or she is smart, won't just rush in to overwhelm the Monsoon at close range, because they will take a serious hammering or possibly be destroyed whilst doing so.  Instead they have to use their higher thrust to control the engagement and pick away at the Monsoon. They have more guns and generally, longer ranged ones (gauss rifles, lasers and PPCs) and you'd have to sit off and pick away with those weapons, hoping for a hit before closing the range and finishing him off with your NAC's and other weapons in a short range barrage.  But the Monsoon, assuming she's upgraded, might well be able to land the odd hit on you at longer range thanks to the bracket firing on its guns.  So its not a one way street. 
If the Tharkad did opt to close in and turn it into a brawl, then really, who ever gets the first good solid hit will win here, they are very evenly matched once the range drops.

Monsoon vs Du Shi Wang

Here the Du Shi Wang is comically outgunned, she's a battlecruiser at best, with the throw weight of a heavy cruiser.  A Lola III outguns a Du Shi Wang.  The Cappie ship has the advantage of very thick armour and a very solid level of structural integrity, and they did build a very handsome ship.  But they then forgot to put the guns on it.  To use her big guns, the Du Shi Wang MUST point her nose at you and charge, which is BAD.  This brings you closer to the Monsoon, and exposes your vulnerable nose, a sensor hit could cripple the DSW before she causes major damage.  The Du Shi Wang is best off bullying cruisers, and even then she's not good at it. 

Monsoon vs Atreus.

If both Captains want a fight then this will be over quickly as both ships are built for close quarters punch ups.  The Atreus is faster and has 6 more fighters, as well as having thicker protection that would help her against any long range hits whilst returning them with her own guns.  But up close, who hits hardest first here will probably win.  The Monsoon does outgun the Atreus though and both ships can easily bulldoze through the others armour in a very short space of time.  An Atreus captain could control the fight better due to her higher thrust rating, but its still going to come down to a very close, gut punching fight. 

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #44 on: 12 October 2018, 16:06:18 »
New Syrtis?  Well consider the Hegemony's fighters were better and the Monsoon had 6 DS . . . how many was the FedSuns ship packing?
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #45 on: 12 October 2018, 20:21:37 »
New Syrtis?  Well consider the Hegemony's fighters were better and the Monsoon had 6 DS . . . how many was the FedSuns ship packing?
One carries 120 fighters, and two dropships.  She has the largest fighter compliment of any other Star League Era Warship. Not until 31st Century, even the Clans didn't have that many fighters on one warship.

I can't imagine she would end up playing one v one situation. She carrier, with maybe light cruiser's weaponry. Though she more modern than Monsoon is.
« Last Edit: 12 October 2018, 20:27:22 by Wrangler »
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #46 on: 12 October 2018, 21:02:02 »
Well the Monsoon has 18 internal. Scratch two collars as identical to the New Syrtis. That leaves four collars.

So... from 18+160 ASF (Vengeance)at one extreme to 18+72 (Titan) the other.

The Monsoon has 300,000 tons of cargo vs 100,000 tons so it can maintain a much higher rate of operations.

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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #47 on: 12 October 2018, 21:10:38 »
I can't imagine she would end up playing one v one situation. She carrier, with maybe light cruiser's weaponry. Though she more modern than Monsoon is.

Honestly, if we're going to talk about battlegroups, the Syrtis would be doomed. The Monsoon wouldn't be operating alone either, and the Hegemony has a whole lot more screens to give it. 
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #48 on: 13 October 2018, 01:04:36 »
Oh indeed, but in a testing environment with no outside factors IE escorts etc is how I was looking at this.
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #49 on: 13 October 2018, 16:22:45 »
The TH would win every fight because they might as well send debris into the fight, they just got so much of it.
Then they have more and better fighters, and dropships, and...
In a ship vs. ship comparison, yes, the monsoon has more dropships.
Chances are, if they actually faced off, they'd be part of small task groups that have a ground element, and there's so many variables it's hard to compare.
It can be argued that carriers are more flexible than battleships, but it's really hard to compare them without a fleet as they usually bring one with them.
In that regard, the New Syrtis is certainly poor.

Usually we don't factor in dropships when comparing battleships. Guess it's hard to ignore them here.
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Re: Warship of the…blimey its been a while. Monsoon Class Battleship.
« Reply #50 on: 14 October 2018, 06:02:29 »
Arguably Drop Collars is what defines a SLDF battleship.

0 Collars for Destroyers
2 Collars for Frigates
4 Collars for Cruisers
6 Collars for Battleships

The exceptions are usually misfits or mishaps.

 

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