Author Topic: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z  (Read 88755 times)

Xeno426

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #210 on: 25 June 2018, 11:51:01 »
I get the distinct impression that while the Society would have had no problems using drones, that simply wasn't where their effort was focusing.
I think we can agree that during the Wars of Reaving, the Society didn't have drones. Either for lack of resources, lack of effort into that direction, or simply a cultural blind spot, they didn't develop on that technology. I'm personally biased towards the idea that the ones on top didn't feel the project would have been worth their limited resources. I mean, how many named Society leaders do we know? Balzac is the only one that comes to mind, and he was a geneticist. The heavy use of virotherapies and pathogen weapons suggests that a lot of resources went into various biological divisions, which seem to suggest the majority of Society leaders were geneticist or at least more leaning towards the field of biology. That probably led to a resource allocation bias on the part of the Society.

At best, I only think drones would pop up later in some kind of AU where the Society survived wholly or partially the WoR.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #211 on: 25 June 2018, 12:43:02 »
The Society see the Warrior Caste as a tool, and believes that the warriors should know their place, but other then that they both come from the same culture.

Getting OT, but I think there should be much more substantive cultural differences than just which caste gets to lead.  Depending on which canon rumor you believe, the Society has been developing in one form or another since Nicky K's campaign to retake the Pentagon worlds -- nearly as long as Clan culture has been in development.  And the Society is rooted in scientific reason, evidence, and processes, not military axioms. 

If the Society had succeeded, I don't think the Clans would look like the Clans anymore.  I don't think issues of property, privilege, and justice would be decided in might-makes-right trials.  I don't think the Crusader/Warden preoccupation with conquering/saving the Inner Sphere would still drive politics in the Homeworlds.  I don't think there'd even be Clans anymore, as the Society was more loyal to its caste than to a Clan or group of Clans.

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And historically for them the SLDF defeated the best drones ever made,

As important and big as it was, I don't think a battle from 200+ years ago would keep the Society from employing a related weapon or tactical doctrine in the WoR.

It's like saying General So-and-So charged up a hill in the Civil War and was defeated to the last man, therefore, the US Army should never seek to defeat an enemy situated on a hill today.

Military doctrine is employed situationally, not absolutely.

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There might be an argument for remote-controlled suicide drones,

That was the original argument I made, using support vehicles.

But I could see an argument for combat vehicles modified with remote control drone systems given the Society's limited human resources and the costs of maintaining a vehicle crew.

I could also see manufacturing of small remote control drone combat vehicles in a Society cell dominated or mostly composed of weapons developers, instead of genetic engineers.

Due to precedents like CLPS, I could even see a limited number of AI drones based on Caspar/Voidseeker technology that the Society carefully husbanded in secret. 

I think the key to the Society or any BT faction using drones is that they have to lose, as Amaris and the Blakies did.  The "bad guys" in BT universe can flirt with Terminator-type capabilities, but they can't take over the universe with drones.  The MechWarriors always prevail in the end.

I get the distinct impression that while the Society would have had no problems using drones...

I think we can agree that during the Wars of Reaving, the Society didn't have drones.

Yes, I think that's accurate.  There is no canon use of drones by the Society but neither is there anything canonical that keeps the Society from employing drones.

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At best, I only think drones would pop up later in some kind of AU where the Society survived wholly or partially the WoR.

I think there is enough access and plenty of reasons for the Society to resort to drones during the WoR in a home-brewed campaign.

FWIW...

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Maingunnery

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #212 on: 25 June 2018, 14:18:59 »
Getting OT, but I think there should be much more substantive cultural differences than just which caste gets to lead.  Depending on which canon rumor you believe, the Society has been developing in one form or another since Nicky K's campaign to retake the Pentagon worlds -- nearly as long as Clan culture has been in development.  And the Society is rooted in scientific reason, evidence, and processes, not military axioms.
The Society and the scientist caste aren't as isolated from the castes, as you would expect. Not only do they employ people from other castes, they also have quite a few former warriors in their ranks. The shared history and continuous mixing of the castes will ensure some shared cultural opinions. They even shared some of the same excessive confidence that is typical of the Warrior caste.


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If the Society had succeeded, I don't think the Clans would look like the Clans anymore.  I don't think issues of property, privilege, and justice would be decided in might-makes-right trials.  I don't think the Crusader/Warden preoccupation with conquering/saving the Inner Sphere would still drive politics in the Homeworlds.  I don't think there'd even be Clans anymore, as the Society was more loyal to its caste than to a Clan or group of Clans.
Yes if the Society had won, there would have been big changes, the Warrior Caste would likely be reduced to competing bloodhouses, with little or no influence over the other castes.


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As important and big as it was, I don't think a battle from 200+ years ago would keep the Society from employing a related weapon or tactical doctrine in the WoR.

It's like saying General So-and-So charged up a hill in the Civil War and was defeated to the last man, therefore, the US Army should never seek to defeat an enemy situated on a hill today.
Tactics can be discredited, for example what would a soldier say if you suggest they form an infantry square (Napoleonic) on the modern battlefield? 


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Yes, I think that's accurate.  There is no canon use of drones by the Society but neither is there anything canonical that keeps the Society from employing drones.
The best odds for that will after WoR, as during that conflict the geneticists won't stop fighting and thus be more likely to be killed off.
It would also help if they can get some agents in the RotS drone program.
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Crow

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #213 on: 28 September 2018, 05:46:44 »
Anyone have any ideas for support vees for a Sept which is geared for asymmetric warfare?

Generic support fee to drop remote sensors
Generic support fee to lay mines
Generic support fee to put spray oil slick over a given area

Can anything else think of other dirty tricks in addition to those above? Would you suggest combining these functions into a single vehicle or keep each role separate?
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Crow

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #214 on: 28 September 2018, 05:55:42 »
Also, what would you prefer to use for a cheap TAG?

1) A point of custom Erinyes with 6pts of armor 6/9(12) with Proto MASC and Light TAG
2) Clan Hover Infantry with 16x Mauser IICs and 4x Infantry Support TAG?
3) Something else
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wantec

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #215 on: 28 September 2018, 08:28:10 »
I'd go with an Asshur Arty Spotter, a Donar (recon variant), or a Saytr 4 (7/11, AP Gauss, & a Light TAG).
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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #216 on: 28 September 2018, 08:51:55 »
Anyone have any ideas for support vees for a Sept which is geared for asymmetric warfare?
Vehicle Annex has all you need.
Quote
Generic support fee to drop remote sensors
Cortez Explorer, Mosquito Radar Plane, Jonah Submarine
Quote
Generic support fee to lay mines
Fulmar Patrol WiGE, Mosquito Radar Plane, Torrent Heavy Bomber
Quote
Generic support fee to put spray oil slick over a given area
Saurer-Bucher Fire Engine, Cellco Ranger, Corx Mobile Tunnel Miner, Lama-Deux VTOL, Dixon Law Enforcement Airship, Dixon Firetender Airship, Pompier FireMech, Vampyr SalvageMech
Quote
Can anything else think of other dirty tricks in addition to those above? Would you suggest combining these functions into a single vehicle or keep each role separate?
Go redundant whenever you can. Most support vees die almost the instant the enemy decides they're worth diverting weapons fire from combat targets.

Rule 1 of support vees: Make sure there's always something more important for the enemy to shoot at.
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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #217 on: 28 September 2018, 09:01:02 »
Come to think of it...

Can anything else think of other dirty tricks in addition to those above?

Searchlights. Go through Vehicle Annex and look closely at how many units mount searchlights. Now take a few of these to a night ambush, light up your enemy, and let your combat units retain their darkness modifiers. You'll definitely want redundancy here, those floodlight units will attract a lot of fire. Find something crazy fast if you can, knowing that lighting someone up does not actually require a to-hit roll, so you don't care how many modifiers you put on yourself.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #218 on: 28 September 2018, 11:50:31 »
Anyone have any ideas for support vees for a Sept which is geared for asymmetric warfare?

Generic support fee to drop remote sensors
Generic support fee to lay mines
Generic support fee to put spray oil slick over a given area

I'd mount this stuff on the Flatbed Truck from TRO:3060. 

It's built to combat vehicle standards, so it doesn't suffer the vulnerabilities of the support vehicle rules.

It's 5/8 speed, so it has reasonable movement against Clan heavy cav.

BV starts at 34, so it's cheap and can be fielded in numbers.

It's on the HW Clan General list in the MUL, so the Society should have ready access to it.

And it has plenty of cargo space for adding these kinds of support weapons to, along with up-armoring, a supercharger, fire control, or other mods.

It's really the BT universe's version of real-world "gun trucks" (which you can wiki).

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Can anything else think of other dirty tricks in addition to those above?

Paint/obscurant ammo for fluid guns/sprayers.  Negates gunnery skill advantages of Clan phenotypes and technology.  A close-range/low-tech way to get some of the same effects as IMP ammo on Society iATMs.

Smoke also comes to mind, especially on vehicular grenade launchers.

Bola ammo also comes to mind, but it's a Spheroid invention for the Narc launcher, so the Society would probably have to independently develop the same idea.

Quote
Would you suggest combining these functions into a single vehicle or keep each role separate?

With the exception of remote sensors, I think you could go either way.  I could see an Un of seven Flatbed Trucks each carrying a fluid gun, two tons of ammo, two minelayers, and two vehicular grenade launchers.  Or I could see an Un of three Flatbed Trucks with two fluid guns each, two Flatbed Trucks with lots of minelayers (if space allows), and two Flatbed Trucks with lots of vehicular grenade launchers (if space allows).  It's when you get down into the smaller support vehicle trucks weighing only a few tons that you can't make these tradeoffs.

The key is to use these support vehicles en masse, as their thin armor/vulnerabilities, inaccurate firing systems, and limited weapons tonnage require a lot of bites at the apple to have a significant effect.  Some will never make a hit.

I may have already linked to this upthread, but here's my take on modifying a few BT support vehicles to act as low-tech technicals, gun trucks, and portees:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=41700.msg961572#msg961572

These are all single-purpose, but again, with the exception of the smallest ones, they don't have to be that way.

Hope this helps.

P.S. I'll also plug the drone/boobytrap concept from upthread again.

"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

truetanker

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #219 on: 28 September 2018, 22:49:57 »
Anyone have any ideas for support vees for a Sept which is geared for asymmetric warfare?

Generic support fee to drop remote sensors
Generic support fee to lay mines
Generic support fee to put spray oil slick over a given area

Can anything else think of other dirty tricks in addition to those above? Would you suggest combining these functions into a single vehicle or keep each role separate?

How dirty is dirty?

I can think of many ideas:

Headhunter Elementals
Resgate PA(L) variants
Hover APC, Sensor - we have had this since the beginning of the franchise

Vali - for Arrow launched FASCAM aka Thunder Arrow,
Ballista - same
Chaparral - same, most likely the MG variant to boot
Huitzilopochtli - same
Padilla - same, has TAG

Mobile Long Tom - for LT launched FASCAM aka Thunder Shell
Thor C - for Thumper launched FASCAM aka Thunder Shell
TAV-1 Thumper-ICE - for Sniper launched FASCAM aka Thunder Shell
Marksman C - same

TT
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Maingunnery

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #220 on: 26 November 2018, 17:51:23 »

This hurts, but now I have more use for captured Inner Sphere Unions....   ;D
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62244.0
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Xeno426

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #221 on: 26 November 2018, 18:34:04 »
This hurts, but now I have more use for captured Inner Sphere Unions....   ;D
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62244.0
That's a shame. A damn shame.

Now I want a mech cubicle that mirrors the light vehicle ones, i.e. mechs 50t or less can fit in. This would allow the packing of more ultraheavy protos.

wantec

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #222 on: 03 December 2018, 14:10:04 »
Can you ask a follow up question just to make sure I'm clear on things? Can a point of Ultra-Heavy Protos fit in a single 'Mech bay?
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Maingunnery

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #223 on: 03 December 2018, 14:32:21 »
Can you ask a follow up question just to make sure I'm clear on things? Can a point of Ultra-Heavy Protos fit in a single 'Mech bay?
I will ask.
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Xeno426

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #224 on: 03 December 2018, 15:07:53 »
Well, can a point of regular protos fit in a single mech bay? If not, that'll be your answer.

truetanker

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #225 on: 03 December 2018, 21:50:30 »
Well now... looks like any Outpost 3070 refit dropper can now carry 3 Points of Protos, a Star of Tanks and double BA Stars as well...

Oh... juicy!

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Maingunnery

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #226 on: 04 December 2018, 11:58:41 »
Can you ask a follow up question just to make sure I'm clear on things? Can a point of Ultra-Heavy Protos fit in a single 'Mech bay?
We got an answer, it is nly one per bay.

I am so going to use the house-rule for using the spare space for cargo.
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(SMD)MadCow

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #227 on: 04 December 2018, 13:38:27 »
We got an answer, it is nly one per bay.

I am so going to use the house-rule for using the spare space for cargo.

Makes sense, they're in the same weight range as ultra light battlemechs...and there's a thought brewing around that. I dunno what it is right now, will get back to you.

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #228 on: 14 December 2018, 21:35:36 »
So wait, Ultra-Heavy Protos can only be transported in Mech Bays? There's no Ultra-Heavy ProtoMech Bay? Can Ultra-Heavy Protos use Light Vee Bays at least? 150 tons for a Mech Bay seems pretty steep, for one Sprite.
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truetanker

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #229 on: 14 December 2018, 22:29:50 »
I know, right?

But alas, no Light Vee Bay...

Bright side is you can now Combat Drop them, from close to near Orbit! And if your using a Broadsword, you can now drop off a Point of Svartalfa!

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
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Crow

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #230 on: 16 December 2018, 09:41:59 »
I know, right?

But alas, no Light Vee Bay...

Bright side is you can now Combat Drop them, from close to near Orbit! And if your using a Broadsword, you can now drop off a Point of Svartalfa!

TT

That's garbage. We need an Ultraheavy ProtoMech Bay which is 100 tons.
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truetanker

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #231 on: 16 December 2018, 17:45:44 »
Crow~

Your Clan is ToPing for whatever... standard clan practices is to batchall for the item(s). You don't need to tell them every little unit your carrying. Let's assume you asked for SafeCon and they agreed, now your unit is using a Union C, a captured Outpost and a old Broadsword.

To the enemy, your bearing down with 30 Mechs, 25 BA, 10 Tanks and 4 Aero.

What this means, your really carrying 20 Mechs, 25 BA, 10 Tanks, 4 Aero and 10 Ultra Heavy Protos being carried by the Outpost!... funny thing too the 3070 upgrade carries 10 standard Protos as it's upgrade.... also 10 Mechs -> 2 points of Ultra! No need for Arcadias...

I'm trying to show you that 10 tons is the absolute minimum requirements to use a standard mech bay... all the way up to 100 tons... it'll use less designs, that to be honest, CGL and the new TPTB want to reuse. Meaning very absolute no new designs, including warships and such... their happier when the last are gone...

In a nutshell, it makes perfect sense to carryout a raid without a dedicated bay, which means truthfully, not having to redesign an official recordsheet, when one is already created. Say that it is garbage, just makes no point, even if validated.

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Crow

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #232 on: 26 January 2019, 06:05:52 »
What forces are my Scientist comrades using for their Society Cells these days?
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Maingunnery

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #233 on: 26 January 2019, 06:34:47 »
What forces are my Scientist comrades using for their Society Cells these days?

Whenever I am allowed, this (with proxies): https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63829.0

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Crow

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #234 on: 26 January 2019, 18:10:41 »
Whenever I am allowed, this (with proxies): https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63829.0

Stunning work. Also nice to know that you used the Nixe B config I designed. Neat.  8)

One issue I have here is that there was a missed opportunity to flesh out a Society Glider Protomech!  :'(
« Last Edit: 26 January 2019, 18:28:43 by Crow »
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Crow

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #235 on: 12 July 2019, 04:54:40 »
Does anyone else think that there could be a viable combat use for any of the Resgate variants in Society forces, or am I just smoking too much necrosia?
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Maingunnery

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #236 on: 12 July 2019, 04:57:29 »
Does anyone else think that there could be a viable combat use for any of the Resgate variants in Society forces, or am I just smoking too much necrosia?
Resgate?
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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #238 on: 12 July 2019, 05:20:40 »
Oh dear.

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Now I am thinking about using them as spotters in easily combustible battlefields (infernos+heavy woods or oil-fields).
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Weirdo

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Re: The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z
« Reply #239 on: 12 July 2019, 06:46:02 »
Just imagine a raid on a major petrochemical refinery, especially since tiny suits like that are much easier to conceal(or disguise as actual civilian suits) and sneak in to a place...
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