Author Topic: Dropship weights and cargo change idea  (Read 3182 times)

Cyclonus13

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Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« on: 27 January 2020, 00:45:32 »
I know this has been discussed in depth before, but I was working on a simple house rule. I doubled the mass of dropship and jump ships and used that space as strictly expanded cargo space. As I’ve been playing in 3025 warships have been a non factor.
Kinda solves the problem of the light weights of the dropship a in general and the low cargo space that would leave most crews starving to death en route to a mission

Thoughts on this? Would this also work for warships or are they ok as is?

AlphaMirage

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #1 on: 27 January 2020, 06:29:52 »
Adding that much cargo to one of the old dropships seems to be a bit much.  The later dropship designs when the rules were more formalized were better with this.  You can resupply mid-mission as well I doubt most operations were longer than 3 months without support during most of BT's history. Those SLDF vintage droppers had warships or abundant merchant vessels to carry their consumables and were little more than the cheap transports sent into the line of fire.

Daryk

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #2 on: 27 January 2020, 20:19:49 »
Bays are the most efficient way to support personnel up to about 90 days in space.  What the old 'mech (and other) carriers don't have is room for the AsTechs.  I'm not sure why.  Honestly, TPTB could up the personnel supported by various transport bays to include the six AsTechs (in addition to the Tech already provided) without much trouble.  Infantry bay quality quarters for six only run about a ton...

Hawkeye Jim

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #3 on: 01 February 2020, 08:27:31 »
I've been toying with the idea of adding an armed supply dropship at the battalion level. In theory, it can carry enough additional cargo to keep the unit in the field for 3-6 months if necessary. You just need bigger dropships to carry the troops in.

idea weenie

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #4 on: 01 February 2020, 13:19:31 »
I've been toying with the idea of adding an armed supply dropship at the battalion level. In theory, it can carry enough additional cargo to keep the unit in the field for 3-6 months if necessary. You just need bigger dropships to carry the troops in.

Mule Dropships are a common cargo carrier, but they have low accel, armor, and weaponry.  But as long as you can keep it safe it has 8 kilotons of cargo capacity.  If you really need capacity aand don't mind putting everything in one Dropship, the Mammoth can carry 40ktons of cargo.

But if you really need capacity, try Cray's Warlord Mk 2.  You will need something to escort it with against ASF attacks while in transit.

Daryk

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #5 on: 01 February 2020, 13:22:56 »
A 100,000 ton DropShip really shows its 2003 provenance...

Hellraiser

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #6 on: 01 February 2020, 22:38:09 »
Bays are the most efficient way to support personnel up to about 90 days in space.  What the old 'mech (and other) carriers don't have is room for the AsTechs.  I'm not sure why.  Honestly, TPTB could up the personnel supported by various transport bays to include the six AsTechs (in addition to the Tech already provided) without much trouble.  Infantry bay quality quarters for six only run about a ton...

Because it wasn't tech teams back then.  Just a single tech that was included with the MW & Mech for every Mech Cubicle.

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Daryk

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #7 on: 02 February 2020, 06:28:03 »
Which is why I pointed out it would be trivial to simply increase the number of people that can be carried.  Bay quality quarters for six run about a ton.  They should have done that when they levied the requirement for AsTechs.

Hellraiser

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #8 on: 02 February 2020, 12:03:43 »
That would be a lot of RS to be corrected.

But I agree with you that one thing all DS should have is at least 1 platoon of "Foot Infantry" to represent the ability to carry passengers be it Astechs or anyone else.

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Daryk

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #9 on: 02 February 2020, 12:08:08 »
The only real complication with doing it is the C-Bill cost for life support.  It's not represented in tonnage beyond the bays/quarters, but it can really crank up the overall cost.  That DropShip price multiplier is a killer.

idea weenie

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #10 on: 08 February 2020, 19:42:18 »
The only real complication with doing it is the C-Bill cost for life support.  It's not represented in tonnage beyond the bays/quarters, but it can really crank up the overall cost.  That DropShip price multiplier is a killer.

The only way I can think of to reduce that is by listing certain items as internal only, and others as external-capable.  Anything listed as internal only only has the SS or WS cost modifier, but is destroyed by any hit of Battlemech-grade (or higher) weapons fire.  Anything listed as external-capable gets the DS cost multipliers, but can take a hit or few.  Items would be listed if they can be internal-capable, and if not listed as internal-capable, they can only use the external price

So living quarters would be internal only, while heat sinks would have the external requirement.  The Bridge would be listed as internal only, while weapons would be listed as external (unless you don't want to use them in a fight).

A cargo hauler would have its structure listed as internal only, while a combat Dropship would have its structure listed as external capable, so it doesn't crumple when anything gets past the armor.

Daryk

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #11 on: 08 February 2020, 19:49:26 »
That strikes me as a giant loophole for costing...  :-\

Atarlost

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #12 on: 13 February 2020, 15:00:38 »
There's nothing to justify dropships having a higher multiplier than warships anyways.  Either the former are massively over-priced or the latter are massively under-priced. 

Daryk

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #13 on: 13 February 2020, 17:55:56 »
Heck, it could be both... the difference is that large.

Fallen_Raven

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #14 on: 13 February 2020, 21:56:41 »
Bays are the most efficient way to support personnel up to about 90 days in space.  What the old 'mech (and other) carriers don't have is room for the AsTechs.  I'm not sure why.

Because Mechwarriors were knights and Astechs were unskilled laborers. If you're a knight out on campaign do you bring your own peasants to do menial labor, or do you pick some up when you get there? In the earliest material that was still a guiding principle of the setting, and Battletech doesn't redo rules to match the background changes nearly as often as some games.
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idea weenie

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #15 on: 15 February 2020, 11:44:58 »
There's nothing to justify dropships having a higher multiplier than warships anyways.  Either the former are massively over-priced or the latter are massively under-priced. 

Dropships have to be able to deal with a variety on atmospheres, that includes both their hull and the engine bells being able to adjust to an outside pressure that ranges from 0 to sometimes over 15 psi.  Warships only have to deal with 0 psi environments.

But I do think that a purely internal item (i.e. MASH unit) shouldn't need to be designed to deal with the different environments and would get a lower cost multiplier.  It may be a way to game the system to get cheaper gear, but if that unit gets into combat and internal hits occur, anything not vacuum-rated gets destroyed immediately.

Atarlost

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #16 on: 16 February 2020, 19:49:01 »
Dropships have to be able to deal with a variety on atmospheres, that includes both their hull and the engine bells being able to adjust to an outside pressure that ranges from 0 to sometimes over 15 psi.  Warships only have to deal with 0 psi environments.

There are a couple problems with that line of argument. 

First, not all dropships can enter atmosphere, but all pay dropship prices. 
Second, entering an atmosphere of less than 2 bars actually reduces the pressure differential because the ship itself is pressurized to 1 bar. 

idea weenie

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #17 on: 22 February 2020, 10:14:24 »
First, not all dropships can enter atmosphere, but all pay dropship prices.   

Unfortunately true.  We'd have to redo the rules to allow for Dropships that cannot land, and give them a cost discount.  But that gets into the fun areas of monitors.

Second, entering an atmosphere of less than 2 bars actually reduces the pressure differential because the ship itself is pressurized to 1 bar. 

Also true, but a space-only platform has to only work with a 15 psi different between exterior and interior pressure.  An atmospheric-capable platform will have variable pressures between inside and out, and varying atmospheres it has to deal with.  So instead of just designing airlocks to keep interior air in, the airlocks have to b able to handle potentially greater exterior pressure, varying temperatures, and the materials have to be able to handle different types of atmosphere.  This applies to anything that could poke out from the Dropship (sensors, windows, landing legs, engines, weapons, heat sinks, armor support systems, etc).

Space is harsh, but it is a relatively identical harsh environment.

kato

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #18 on: 30 March 2020, 13:33:42 »
The only real complication with doing it is the C-Bill cost for life support.  It's not represented in tonnage beyond the bays/quarters, but it can really crank up the overall cost.  That DropShip price multiplier is a killer.
There's an easy rules-legal way around it: You put the quarters/bays inside vehicles which are carried in bays onboard a dropship.

This way the dropship multiplier only applies to the cost of the bay and the bay crewspace. As a result you can in theory pack up to 173 people in 50 tons for only 1,781,563-2,061,563 C-Bills - including the extra bay.

For fluff think of it as a flexible cargo deck into which a mobile preconfigured flatbed bunk container system is rolled.

Daryk

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #19 on: 30 March 2020, 18:51:14 »
That could work, but would require a complicit GM...

Hawkeye Jim

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #20 on: 30 March 2020, 23:28:44 »
I've been using designs from this board. Combat mech droppers carry two companies plus infantry and go about 18,000 tons. More heavily armed combat supply ships  weigh in at 25,000 tons and carry 12,000 tons of cargo. Think that would do it? If necessary an aero dropper can be added.

Atarlost

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #21 on: 02 April 2020, 15:14:46 »
Unfortunately true.  We'd have to redo the rules to allow for Dropships that cannot land, and give them a cost discount.  But that gets into the fun areas of monitors.

It really doesn't.  The monitor argument was about warships.  Dropships, even with subcapital weapons are not warships.  And the PTB were silly to not provide a compromise, because we know from small craft and dropshuttles that KF cores or booms are not required for realspace mobility. 

Also true, but a space-only platform has to only work with a 15 psi different between exterior and interior pressure.  An atmospheric-capable platform will have variable pressures between inside and out, and varying atmospheres it has to deal with.  So instead of just designing airlocks to keep interior air in, the airlocks have to b able to handle potentially greater exterior pressure, varying temperatures, and the materials have to be able to handle different types of atmosphere. 

I present exhibit A: the battlemech and tracked vehicle price formulas.  They are identical.  Battlemechs are able to operate in any environment a dropship can land.  Vehicles (without additional sealing expense) can only operate in human livable atmospheres.  The ability to handle a variety of surface environments is baked into the equipment prices.  An autocannon incapable of handling exotic atmospheres might cost less than one that can, but it doesn't matter because nobody manufactures such a thing. 

Reentry heating countermeasures depend on mass and to some extent volume, not on price and only to some components.  Projecting structures must be retracted behind covers for aerodynamic reasons if nothing else.  This potential reentry penalty does not apply to all surface equipment.  Heatsinks, for example, are mounted flush in Battletech.  This does not mean reentry capable dropships require more expensive heatsinks.  Heatsinks are heatsinks.  I present Exhibit B: the conventional fighter and ASF price calculations.  They are identical apart from conventionals not having an optional omnitech multiplier.  Anything that can be mounted flushed (which due to the absence of turrets on fighters is most everything) is, again, only available in reentry capable versions.  As the cost of retractable turrets and covers for weapon bays depends on the number and weight of weapons it would be part of the gunnery control system costs, not a multiplier applying to anything else.  If sensors and comms equipment require retractable covers (ASF sensors don't seem to) that would be part of the sensor cost or bridge cost. 

The only things that can justify a cost multiplier that includes interchangeable components like weapons and heatsinks are labor costs.  If anything these should be lower for atmosphere capable spacecraft because they can be built either on a planet with gravity and an atmosphere or in microgravity, whichever is cheaper, while void only spacecraft can only be built in microgravity.  Things like infantry bays might justify a sealing and life support premium on spacecraft and submersibles, but that would be a difference in component price not a justification for a general price multiplier. 

Daryk

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Re: Dropship weights and cargo change idea
« Reply #22 on: 02 April 2020, 18:18:01 »
I'd think there are at least a few components that would be useful in a gravity well that could only be manufactured in micro-gravity.  Manufacturing tends to require more controlled environments than operations, after all.

 

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