Trying to do something with the Elemental II

[RevenVrake]

The Elemental II is a much maligned clunker of a Battle Suit. Its so heavy it can't use anti-mech swarm attacks, which negated the very nice Myomer Booster which should have made its melee attacks devastating. So it can't swarm and its noticeably slower than its Benchmark making older sibling.

Is there anything we can do with the Elemental II?

How about trying to make it the biggest pain in the ass to get rid of?

Code: [Select]

Elemental II "Improved"
Base Tech Level: Experimental (Clan)
Level          Era
-------------------
Experimental    - 
Advanced        - 
Standard      3144+
Tech Rating: F/X-X-X-E

BV: 502
Cost: 3,600,000 C-bills

Movement: 3/3/1

Internal: 5
Armor: 70 BA Stealth (Improved)
           Internal  Armor   
------------------------------
Trooper 1         1     14   
Trooper 2         1     14   
Trooper 3         1     14   
Trooper 4         1     14   
Trooper 5         1     14   

Weapons                                                Loc   Heat 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Gauss Rifle [Anti-personnel Gauss Rifle] (Right arm)  Point    1   

Equipment                                      Loc   
-----------------------------------------------------
BA Manipulators [Armored Gloves] (Left arm)   Point 
BA Manipulators [Armored Gloves] (Right arm)  Point 
Single-Hex ECM (Body)                         Point 
Mechanical Jump Booster (Body)                Point 

So it uses the best BA weapon the Clans have got, the AP Gauss Rifle. And that's it. It does have two Armored Gloves so in theory it can use other weapons too, but I didn't include them in this sheet.

It moves at an usual pace of 3/3/1. Instead of the Myomer Booster this clunker instead runs with Mechanical Jump Boosters.  ???
This gives it the dubious advantage of being able to hop 30 meters in a single bound for crossing obstacles or running at 31kph to generate a targeting modifier.

Speaking of Targeting Modifiers...notice the Armor. That's right, Improved Stealth Armor. And there is 14 points of it. Only a Gauss Rifle hit or ER PPC will kill this thing outright. It can withstand two Medium Pulse Laser hits, and considering that's usually considered a pretty good way to kill BA, that's a relief.
The crown jewel of this suit, possibly, is the ECM system fitted. Using optional rules for Ghost Targeting, this means the suit can be rather...hard...to hit in the first place. And if the enemy lets it get underfoot, it starts screwing with their fancy electronics.

I'd still consider this a clunker though (Heavy Battle Armor and only a single 3 point hit at range?) but maybe its the annoying clunker you just can't hit reliably unless you start dedicating artillery to the job.

[Daryk]

3.6M?  That's simply too expensive.  You can get two 3025 'mechs for that, and I give them better than even odds due to their superior mobility.  If you allow custom designed opponents, I guarantee I can get an AOE attack (via an Artillery Cannon) for less (again with superior mobility to dictate range).

[Retry]

3.6M?  That's simply too expensive.  You can get two 3025 'mechs for that, and I give them better than even odds due to their superior mobility.  If you allow custom designed opponents, I guarantee I can get an AOE attack (via an Artillery Cannon) for less (again with superior mobility to dictate range).

That 3.6M is for the entire point of elementals.

Keep in mind that normal elementals cost roughly 3.5M for a whole point, while the original Elemental II cost 3.85M per point...

[Daryk]

I was figuring that, and still give the odds to the 'mechs.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

What about to just replace an AP Gauss by some SRMs? If they have an SRM1, they can carry 17 normal rounds. With SRM2 they can carry 6 rounds each. You can't jump with it, though.

Well, other than that, still it is sure that AP Gauss is a solid weapon, that provides good range even for battle armors.

[Daryk]

AP Gauss aren't to be sneezed at, but compared to a Medium Laser they just can't hang.

[Retry]

I was figuring that, and still give the odds to the 'mechs.

Okay.  Then what would be good enough for a BA suit while still remaining cheap?  An armored Clan medium point with jump jets and no weapons is already at 3.3 Million...

3025 'Mechs that cost 1.8 million or less are basically limited to 25-ton mechs and under (and the Urbie), which usually use SRMs and lasers which only match the range of the APGR.  A Wasp or Stinger would do much better to use its speed to stay away from these BA rather than choosing the range brackets, since they're not going to get better to-hit numbers against these "fast" Improved Stealth BA.  Artillery Cannon Shenanigans would be a much better choice to kill BA(although they're actually surprisingly expensive compared to regular Artillery).

What about to just replace an AP Gauss by some SRMs? If they have an SRM1, they can carry 17 normal rounds. With SRM2 they can carry 6 rounds each. You can't jump with it, though.

Well, other than that, still it is sure that AP Gauss is a solid weapon, that provides good range even for battle armors.

What would be the purpose of swapping the APGR with a SRM1?

AP Gauss aren't to be sneezed at, but compared to a Medium Laser they just can't hang.

On which platform?

On BA, it's the same range and 3 damage for 1 crit and 200 kg, with anti-infantry capability.  The Medium is 500 kg and 5 damage for 3 crits and 500 kg, but lacks decisive anti-infantry capability.  The APGR effectively makes the Medium Laser obsolete for BA use (as well as virtually every other BA weapon except for some missiles).

[Daryk]

I mean an APGR can't hang against a Medium Laser on a 'mech or Combat Vehicle.

And a Thumper Cannon is only 200,000 C-Bills.  You can fit one on a 4/6/4 'mech with max armor (and two tons of ammo) for ~2.4M C-Bills.  One would only have to hit the hex the elementals are in three times to kill them all.  And hexes are notoriously hard to miss.

Even better, you can fit one on a 30-ton 4/6 vehicle for less than 500K...

[Retry]

I mean an APGR can't hang against a Medium Laser on a 'mech or Combat Vehicle.

And a Thumper Cannon is only 200,000 C-Bills.  You can fit one on a 4/6/4 'mech with max armor (and two tons of ammo) for ~2.4M C-Bills.  One would only have to hit the hex the elementals are in three times to kill them all.  And hexes are notoriously hard to miss.

Even better, you can fit one on a 30-ton 4/6 vehicle for less than 500K...

On a 'Mech, no, the APGR's explosiveness is too painful.  Not true on a Combat Vee though, you can grab 4 rifles and a ton of ammo for 3 tons and a decent punch (12 points total vs 15 for a Medium Laser array when neglecting heat sinks).  The heat sinks on the Medium lasers start to add up real fast.

Yeah, you can mount the Thumper Cannon on a decently-cheap Mech (or a very cheap Vee).  I've done so myself.  But it's very specialized.  Good at eating Infantry or BA, but only if it's outside of a hardened building or lacks reactive armor (even worse if the BA/Infantry has a long-ranged field gun or a clan-spec ER Medium Laser).  Otherwise, 5/2 splash damage isn't going to do much against other Vees or 'Mechs, even when exploiting the hex-targeting shenanigan to gain an automatic hit.  Also, I'd like to point out that 3 turns is actually quite a long amount of time to kill a Squad of these (or a regular Elemental) for a unit that's specifically specialized to do so.

So I'm not exactly convinced that a BA unit which is, in fact, about typical in price for its weight class (actually on the cheap side), is too expensive or obsolete because you can build a super-specialized mech or tank (using a weapon that wasn't even in mass production until 3080) that can specifically cheese its rather narrow speed and range advantage on perfectly flat terrain in a 1 vs 1 situation.

(On a side note: the Sniper Cannon and Long Tom Cannon are far more expensive (475k and 650k IIRC) than the Thumper Cannon.  In each case, the heavier full-fledged Artillery Piece is actually cheaper than the less powerful sawn-off versions.  Go figure.)

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

What would be the purpose of swapping the APGR with a SRM1?

Because you can take the other equipment on the spare weight.

For example, you can take a SRM1 with nine normal/Inferno missiles, and also have a Light Machine Gun and you have 5 kg spare weight that can be used for Anti-Personnel Weapon Mount or something else. Since they are clanners they don't want a Tag on the mount, though. Anyway, with these, they can threaten the enemy mechs and vehicles by Inferno, then with Walk 3 they may close up and unleash the fury with Rapid-Fire LMG as well.


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Well, I think that the only usable Cannon is Long Tom Cannon, therefore Artillery Cannon is ineligible for mechs. The other Cannon weapons are both too heavy and also too short. Just for clearing Battle Armor, Mine Clearance LRMs will do the same with much lighter weight.

Although its effective accuracy is very good and it can be a niche weapon, though, but if I can choose I just choose a tank with a Long Tom Cannon or two.

edit: I must be careful that the armor is for clanners.

[Rockjock]

The APGR is a great direct fire BA weapon, no doubt about that.  Heavy BA fits that weird space of lacking the versatility of a medium, or the stand and hold a hex ability of an assault, which is the problem with the original Elemental II to begin with.

All that being said your fix is a good anti BA/ anti PBI suit, and not horrible against armor.  I doubt I would take it too often, but it does the job.