Author Topic: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?  (Read 10391 times)

Psyckosama

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How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« on: 02 May 2018, 08:56:08 »
Just wondering what changes you'd do to the Aerospace rules to make them make more sense to you?

Note, this includes rewriting/retconning the units so feel free to go wild.

Alsadius

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #1 on: 02 May 2018, 10:07:14 »
Oh god, what wouldn't I do? I tend to think more of JS/WS than fighters, so that'll skew this, but here's my short list:
- AMS is totally broken right now, and needs a major nerf.
- Armor values are stupidly low, as are weapon damages - the capital:standard ratio should probably be 100:1, not 10:1.
- Fire control weight is a terrible patch to try to fix the above.
- DropShip collars costing more than new ships is really odd. I'd probably make the mass of the DS count towards the jump drive's mass cap, instead of having the KF drive just take up 96% of the ship, and use that to limit parasite ships.
- FASAnomics is as much of a problem as ever.
- There's no reason for any ship to be anything other than a generalist. You should always throw a few fighters and a few DS collars and a few big guns and a few little guns on everything. The big ships have too much mass to allow for the design limits of Mechs(i.e., the fact that you can only mount a few main guns) to force them into roles. Give us reasons to specialize instead.

SeeM

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #2 on: 02 May 2018, 10:25:37 »
I am still playing on gravity boards from Aerotech 1 boxes. Gravity arrows make Aerotech different from other space sims and adds many challenges for slower, or damaged vessels.
- Armor values are stupidly low, as are weapon damages - the capital:standard ratio should probably be 100:1, not 10:1.
I like when a Warship have some faster companion, for example Essex with Achilles. Even if Achilles is somewhat useless against Warship even at 10:1 ratio, 100:1 would make it a paperweight.
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Alsadius

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #3 on: 02 May 2018, 10:29:54 »
I am still playing on gravity boards from Aerotech 1 boxes. Gravity arrows make Aerotech different from other space sims and adds many challenges for slower, or damaged vessels.

Yeah, I like BT's orbit mechanics. That's genuinely good.

I like when a Warship have some faster companion, for example Essex with Achilles. Even if Achilles is somewhat useless against Warship even at 10:1 ratio, 100:1 would make it a paperweight.

Not if DropShips got the 10:1 ratio.

AlphaMirage

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #4 on: 02 May 2018, 11:53:54 »
I'd first figure out what elements you want to keep as part of the main game.  As much as I like Warships it is tough to design such beasts without them becoming overwhelming.  I'd prefer they keep the Aerospace rules for Dropship, Aerospace fighters, and Space Stations/Asteroid bases only.  Jumpships are setting we don't need sophisticated rules for them.

Kidd

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #5 on: 02 May 2018, 11:59:21 »
feel free to go wild.
Create a new ruleset that totally converts weapons and equipment to a new "Space-scale" that can scale up to handle massive naval fleet battles

Throw the entirety of Dropships and Jumpships, TRO: 3057r and TechManual out the window - make up new stats AND construction rules where the only thing preserved would be general unit flavour - an Invader still has 3 collars, a Black Lion still NAC-murders almost everything, Leviathans are still nearly gamebreaking god devices, etc.

Look, space warfare has minimal interaction with classic BT tabletop. Its the one part of the BT game suite that can and should be utterly retconned.

Nemesis

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #6 on: 02 May 2018, 12:35:23 »
Range.
Completely eliminate the TW rule about aero ranges being standardized, and use the normal ground weapon ranges. IIRC that may be an optional rule somewhere, but it should be the official rule.

Why? Because the BV system wasn't designed for it.

Unless every weapon gets a separate AeroBV to take into account the new weapon stats, it completely breaks any battle between Clan and IS forces. With flat range brackets IS and Clan weapons get the same ranges without paying the BV for them, resulting in IS designs that cost a fraction of a Clan aero while having the same capabilities.

Take the Small Pulse Laser for example. Under aero rules both IS and Clan versions are 2 heat, 3 damage, short range. The IS version is 12 BV while the Clan version is 24, meaning with completely identical designs the Clan fighter will be at a 2:1 disadvantage in numbers.



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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #7 on: 02 May 2018, 21:42:51 »
Internal Structure is actually made of two types: Thrust Structure and Armor Structure
Thrust Structure - used to hold the ship together when performing maneuvers or bringing the engine to Overthrust.  You can install more structure, in case your ship takes damage
Armor Structure - determines threshold rating of armor, not armor tonnage alone

Armor pts per ton is based on a ship's surface area.  The more components you install over a certain amount, the more surface area the ship has, and the less armor points per ton you get.  You essentially take the surface area, convert that through an equation to get armor points per ton, and multiply that by tons of armor to get armor points.  You then allocate normally.

Instead of chart break points, you use equations.  Mass determines tons of fuel per burn-day, so no designing a ship 1 kton below the break point.  Due to Docking Collars having a limit of 1 per 50ktons, there will still be ships built near those values.

Give a reason for the civilian drives to be used.  Perhaps they only have a Thrust rating, but not Overthrust?  The advantage is that they might be smaller than military engines, about 5% of the ship's mass per Thrust point.  (So a 3/5 ship needs 19.5% of the ship's mass, but a civilian drive only needs 15%.  A 2/3 engine only needs 13%, so we would have to figure out what multiplier to fuel usage would be best so civilian ships would prefer to use Thrust 3, instead of going around at OverThrust on a 2/3 engine.)

Non-capital weapons cannot damage capital armor.  They can try for critical hits, and they can be used for damaging internal structure.  This makes fighters have to carry antishipping weaponry to harm Warships, but if the Warship's armor is gone from one location, expect enemy fighters to swarm that location.

Fighter squadron armor is based on the highest three locations, but the threshold is based on the average of the lowest 3 locations.  I also want to make it where fighters in a squadron are more effective than single fighters.  Perhaps a penalty based on the number of fighters less than 4?

Nicoli

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #8 on: 02 May 2018, 22:23:23 »
Armor pts per ton is based on a ship's surface area.  The more components you install over a certain amount, the more surface area the ship has, and the less armor points per ton you get.  You essentially take the surface area, convert that through an equation to get armor points per ton, and multiply that by tons of armor to get armor points.  You then allocate normally.
Most likely armor on an object like a warship would not be uniform across the ship. Only the "important" parts would have any serious armor on them with the rest allowed to be damaged or destroyed. An example would be like most armored naval ship. Only the core or "Citadel" areas of a ship mostly the engine rooms and magazines get real armor. the rest can be as much as a 1/30th the thickness of the citadel armor.

Flameblade

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #9 on: 02 May 2018, 23:46:08 »
My changes have no basis on physics or anything stupid like that.  I would desire to make things more fun.

I would change that non-capital weapons would have to do 10 points of base damage in order to do 1 point cap damage and it would round down.  No more large group of ML to strafe cap armor.

I would allow turrets to be placed on warships.  Allowing big guns to have many different facings.  And I would have more locations on a ship in general with random hit location like battlemechs.  These turrets would of course need to have their own armor like with Vee's. 

I would allow fighters to target specific locations.

I would have a shotgun like round for NAC's that would deal non-capital damage to all units in a particular hex or group of hexes.  Possibly a "wide angle lens" for lasers to do the same. 

I have a decent number of systems on a Cap ship that could damaged.  Targeting controls, drive, life support, bridge, engineering, doors, docking collars etc.  Damaging or destroy these system would impart penalties on the ship.   I would also be requiring different systems for non-combat operations.  So if you would want to do find units from orbit you would need to have systems in place to detect units from orbit.  If you wanted to detect ship's far away in space you would need systems in place to detect said units. Something like locations from mechs.  With things like engines must be located in the rear and bridge in a "center torso"  location. 

ColBosch

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #10 on: 03 May 2018, 00:17:59 »
Throw out everything and start over. As Kidd said, keep the basic feel while ruthlessly making sure I'm making a fun game that isn't just 'Mechs in space.
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marcussmythe

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #11 on: 03 May 2018, 10:41:23 »
If were throwing out and starting over, FASA published a decent space warship game once upon a time.  It was a bit over-simplified but the bones of what Im sure were a really cool precursor that was abandoned for the simplified version could still be seen.

Kidd

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #12 on: 03 May 2018, 12:17:43 »
I would allow fighters to target specific locations.


I have a decent number of systems on a Cap ship that could damaged.  Targeting controls, drive, life support, bridge, engineering, doors, docking collars etc.  Damaging or destroy these system would impart penalties on the ship.   I would also be requiring different systems for non-combat operations.  So if you would want to do find units from orbit you would need to have systems in place to detect units from orbit.  If you wanted to detect ship's far away in space you would need systems in place to detect said units. Something like locations from mechs.  With things like engines must be located in the rear and bridge in a "center torso"  location. 
I like this.

In my rules ASFs would only be nuisances but carry short ramged capital missiles (ie torpedoes) which can potentially destroy a medium sized ship in about 5 successful hits. At "Squadron" scale (medium battles) they would form squadrons of 6 to 10 and fight like BA squads - weapons aggregated into 2 to 3 individual attacks each, dealing random damage until structure points are gone or fatal crits are inflicted.

At "Fleet" scale (for really big battles) they would form in wings of 18 to 30 and fight more like infantry platoons, with more abstracted difference in damage and armour.

AMS, EW and ECM would be an integral part of the game, and installed on most if not all Warships. The map would have satellites of various kinds as "cover", cause action would mostly take place near the planet of course. Chaff would be deployable at a short and medium distance and last for about 2 turns, but take a turn to expand and fill the hex - so preplanning would be required.

Lasers would be weak and hot. Missiles the best ranged damage dealers, but vulnerable to ECM and AMS. ACs, highly inaccurate at long range.

Heading changes would not be as instantaneous as it is now. Naturally different designs and weapons would optimise different arcs. So the tactical challenges would be manoeuvreing into better firing positions/ranges using obstacles, planning chaff barrages to provide cover, using ASF-delivered capital weapons effectively, and using EW/ECM well... or just run up close and batter each other to death Age of Sail style, works too!

Optional rule - use levels to simulate 3d combat!

Starfox1701

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #13 on: 12 May 2018, 01:42:22 »
 oh boy where to begin? let's see first off as time has gone on the BattleTech universe has advanced except warships. the naval autocannons you used a day are the same Naval Auto cannons used in the 24th century that means the weapon system has remained essentially unchanged for 800 years. that's BS. there's also a question of scale. Originally a space hex was 6500 km. currently they are only 18 km. that is a humongous difference in range and speed for warships and drop ships. Lastly as originally envisioned warships in BattleTech or more like pre dreadnought ironclads and early Cruisers and battleships. Currently they are equipped more like age of sail frigates and Men of War. both analogies actually lend two very different Construction and play styles. I find it highly unlikely that advanced space combat ships would be constructed similarly  to wooden sailing warships.

Development of space weapons technology and advancements in Naval Construction and Naval architecture has stagnated in the BattleTech universe and this is something that the game developers do not seem to have an interest in changing at this time even though it's pretty clear that a properly developed and supported BattleTech universe space combat simulator could and would sell well.

 in making changes  to the aerospace systems of this game the first thing needs to be making the ships actually work the way the written in the fluff. The second thing is technology must move forward. There are a large number of mechs scale advances that could be applied to spaceships.  Unfortunately they have missed a massive opportunity in the clan invasion to do this and while there was some progression during the jihad it was mainly aimed at rendering warships impotent or obsolete.

This leaves us in the following position, the year is 3150 and the whole of human civilization has an ageing fleet of warships most of which are 100 or more years old. Fewer than a handful are constructed each decade and by all appearances little or no effort is being made to rectify this state of affairs. To make matters worse humanity is more divided then they have been at any time in the last 1000 years.

However all is not lost. This so-called dark age is not like the self inflicted collapses of the past. The last 120 years has seen a technological revival that has seen mankind surpass the heights of the starleage era. The stage is set for the age of battleships to truly dawn if we have the courage to stay the course.

In my mind this will require a multidrectional approach. Obviously a rules overhaul is long overdue but I am unable to speculate on exactly what because I'm finding that getting a handle on the current rules set is very frustrating because of how they are divided up.  A single unified book is a must for aerospace players; something like the BattleMech Manual. The current setup doesn't suffer so much from rules blote so much as from just being really inefficient in its arrangement. After a several years long break from the game forced by real life I am appalled by how not user friendly this setup is. I think this was something that might have looked good on paper but in execution has become a nightmare for new players as they try to make heads or tails of everything. The rules don't need simplified or streamlined, they need rearranged to make stuff easier to find and use.

Fluff wise 2 major things need to be done. First the question of how the weapons are arranged on these ships must be settled. Are we dealing with fixed carronades like age of sail ships of the line or turrets, sponsons, and barbets like on warships at the dawn of the 20th century. A mixture of both is feasible but needs to be expressly stated so that the rules can then be written accordingly.  This means both an expansion of the fireing arc rules and going over every single cannon hull to apply them. Second the post jihad period and the early dark age needs the appropriate fluff to cover the new technology that will be added and be coming of age in this time period. This isn't really a retcon so much as just filling out the fluff since in game we only learn what each government or organization wants us to know when they want us to know it so its not like the writers haven't left the door open for this.

Construction rules that need to change are a quite a few. 1st off are jump cores. While having the core take up a fixed percentage of mass is neat and tidy its not very realistic from a in universe physics stand point. A given drive of a given mass should be able to produce a field of a given volume. There's also the fluffy factoid that early jumpships need to carry big transit drives, huge hangers, and massive cargo facilities as well as the huge fule tankage needed to feed these drives. Yet we are supposed to believe they did all this with ships. A half million tons or less and jump cores taking up 95% of the ships mass. You ever tried to build one of those things? It can't be done with the current rules yet we know they existed so something doesn't add up. There's also the fact that listed mass of the ship is not the actual limit of mass the core can actually move. Take the Leviathan iii, she has a core rated for 2.3 million tons but in actual fact will move 3.3 million tons under full drop load.  That's not a small difference. There's also the case of the Newgrange yardship that jumped a whole monitor to Tau Ceti from Sol. That was at least 450000 extra tons. So if the core can jump that much extra mass what is the actual limit? This component needs a complete rework because the rules don't line up with the history.

The second thing is weapons. To put it simply we need more variety in all sup cap and full cap weapons. It is also time to add super capital weapons and I don't mean mass drivers. Plasma cannons gauss and ppcs added to sub caps list. Capital plasma is also a must. At this point every weapons innovation made on mechs scale weapons should be evaluated to see if a sub capital and capital scale counterpart is feasible. Super capital weapons should include torpedos, ie big slow guided missiles, and at least one each of the following autocannon, ppc, gauss rifle. Naval lasers already do so little damage individually that I doubt scaling them up would provide damage on the same level as other super capital weapons. Autocannon, ppcs, and gauss are much easier to scale up. Especially autocannon.

Third time to add a new component of sorts. This is the citadel. Warships are big and expensive but the construction rules don't include all the logical viable options to enhance there survivability. The armored citadel would function basically like armored components on a battlemech except this would encompass multiple internal components like the jump core reactors and internal main drive components .

Fourth turrets. These are going to come in multiple types but need to be divided into three eras. To reflect the different weapons arrangements. Era one, traditional weapons bays which are arranged like ships of the line. Pros - traditional weapons setup essentially unlimited weapons in the traditional arc arrangement. Cons - these weapons require weapons ports. These compromise the armor integrity. These ships have a lower threshold. Era two, predreadnought ironclad type. These sweapons are arranged in barbets, sponsons, and small turrets. Pros - wider fields of fire than weapons bays. Traditional threshold levels. Cons - Barbets are litely armored. They take damage easily. All three require some extra equipment which means extra weight.  Era three, Dreadnought/Battleship type. All turret gun battery. Divided into 3 types of turrets. Main battery turrets, secondary battery turrets, and anti-aerospace turrets.  Pros - higher threshold due to improved armor integrity. Main battery is only type of turret that can mount super capitals. Secondary battery can have dule firecontrol. AA turrets get bonus to hit on small craft. Turrets have best foreign arcs and are the most efficient use of tonnage for weapons. Cons- main and secondary turrets can be truly massive constructs. Wide fields of fire open up turrets to equally wide counter batter fire making them more likely to get hit. AA turrets useless against capital ships due too a lack of firepower.

Adittional notes on turret weapons. Barbets lack fully in closed armor casemates. This is a weight saving measure but makes them very fragile especially when attacked by small craft. Sponsons are fully armored. Both amounted on a particular facing of the ship and have q maximum of 180 degree arc. Both have magazines inside the ship but these can be inside an armoured citadel. Small, main, secondary, and AA turrets are fully in closed self contained gun emplacements. They utilize maglev frictionless rotation and electromagnetic gforce compensation. All magazines are internal to the turret. Main battery and secondar guns habe multiple armor facings. I could go on for a while but this is turning into a book so ill come down off the sole box now.

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #14 on: 12 May 2018, 12:46:31 »
Throw out everything and start over. As Kidd said, keep the basic feel while ruthlessly making sure I'm making a fun game that isn't just 'Mechs in space.

Basically.  Plus lots more.  There have been all kinds of ideas floated here, but whatever gets decided it needs to be consistent, well-reasoned, and written in stone.  Frankly, it seems so unlikely, I'd expect it to be part of a fan-driven effort to reboot the game rather than an official product.  A pipe dream, even if such an effort appeals to the masochist in me.  And that's before TPTB start howling and lawyers start getting involved.  I don't think it would end well.
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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #15 on: 12 May 2018, 13:53:28 »
Just wondering what changes you'd do to the Aerospace rules to make them make more sense to you?

Note, this includes rewriting/retconning the units so feel free to go wild.

Both of my changes would be in the construction rules area and both result in more cargo space for Jumpships.

1.  I would change the KF Drives to be 90% & 45% respectively.
Both free up a small amount of room & they are a standard 2-1 size ratio like SFE/XL are.
This allows L1 jumpships to match the early DS/JS fluff of larger cargo bays along the spine.
Something can support an small taskforce w/o having to pack a Mammoth in every fleet.

2.  Allow Compact Cores in Jumpships.   Creating a Hybrid Jumpship/Space Station with massive cargo space for fleet support/colonization, etc etc.
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Andras

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #16 on: 12 May 2018, 22:53:37 »
If were throwing out and starting over, FASA published a decent space warship game once upon a time.  It was a bit over-simplified but the bones of what Im sure were a really cool precursor that was abandoned for the simplified version could still be seen.

If you are talking about Renegade Legion: Leviathan, I'm sorry to report it's probably more broken then Aerotech. In that game, fighters and missiles ruled supreme, and a flight of 6 fighters could cut a battleship in half in one turn.

Small craft took up that same construction units (bay factors) as a fighter, but you could design and carry small craft that each carried 12 fighters, giving you 12x as many fighters in the same space.

marcussmythe

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #17 on: 13 May 2018, 00:49:36 »
As I said, there was the bones of a cool, and more complex, precusor under the published, over-simplified and somewhat buggy version.

Having only gotten one edition, it never got a chance to get fixed (and fighters were one of the things that badly needed fixing.  As were breakpoints for ship size.  And the FASA exponential engine size brainbug, and and and...

But, to take this back to battletech...  the real genius of BTech, IMHO, is heat.  It allows another resource to be managed, with pros and cons, allowing for more interesting decisions in combat rather than ‘shoot all the guns all the time.’

Heat is an even more pressing constraint for a space going vehicle.

If I did a ground up redesign, Id do a warship scale game with warship design and a rigid discontinuities between capital and non-capital scale.  Asrospace Fighters shoot at mechs and dropships and vice versa, so we probably cant change them.  Just do a game at warship scale and leave the fighters and droppers alone, with some rules for converting them into ‘warship scale’ behavior, much like mecha and vehicles are converted and standardized to function at a battleforce scale.

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #18 on: 14 May 2018, 19:15:42 »
Both of my changes would be in the construction rules area and both result in more cargo space for Jumpships.

1.  I would change the KF Drives to be 90% & 45% respectively.
Both free up a small amount of room & they are a standard 2-1 size ratio like SFE/XL are.
This allows L1 jumpships to match the early DS/JS fluff of larger cargo bays along the spine.
Something can support an small taskforce w/o having to pack a Mammoth in every fleet.

2.  Allow Compact Cores in Jumpships.   Creating a Hybrid Jumpship/Space Station with massive cargo space for fleet support/colonization, etc etc.

What if dropship collar cost and mass was related to Core Size?  For example: For Compact Cores, only the first 2-4 would be "Standard", capable of being tied in to the Core with no difficulty, but any more would be "Extended" requiring extensive linkages and workings to tie the Collars in to the Jump.  For Standard Cores, there would be no limit due to its massive size generating a larger radius.  Extended Collars would cost as now, but the Standard Collars would be 1/3 to 1/2 the price (both C-Bill and mass) of what they are now?

Then add a Quirk for the Potemkin like a Collar Network which would treat its Collars like a Standard Core.
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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #19 on: 14 May 2018, 20:25:27 »
What if dropship collar cost and mass was related to Core Size?  For example: For Compact Cores, only the first 2-4 would be "Standard", capable of being tied in to the Core with no difficulty, but any more would be "Extended" requiring extensive linkages and workings to tie the Collars in to the Jump.  For Standard Cores, there would be no limit due to its massive size generating a larger radius.  Extended Collars would cost as now, but the Standard Collars would be 1/3 to 1/2 the price (both C-Bill and mass) of what they are now?

Then add a Quirk for the Potemkin like a Collar Network which would treat its Collars like a Standard Core.

Interesting idea, but, instead, I'd rather just completely revamp the C-Bill costs for KF ships so that the Docking Collars were not so ridiculously priced to add on.

I'd like to the the Collars be a much smaller price increase, like 1/4 of what they are now, and instead see a SIZE multiplier for KF ships the same way Ground Units & ASF do it.

IDK, call it 5% per 50KT or something like that.

LFBs should still be pricey given what they do, but I'd like to see them cheaper by 25-50% or so.
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Charistoph

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #20 on: 14 May 2018, 21:09:05 »
Interesting idea, but, instead, I'd rather just completely revamp the C-Bill costs for KF ships so that the Docking Collars were not so ridiculously priced to add on.

I'd like to the the Collars be a much smaller price increase, like 1/4 of what they are now, and instead see a SIZE multiplier for KF ships the same way Ground Units & ASF do it.

IDK, call it 5% per 50KT or something like that.

LFBs should still be pricey given what they do, but I'd like to see them cheaper by 25-50% or so.

Both can still be done.
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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #21 on: 15 May 2018, 09:54:35 »
Go to a movement/maneuver system similar to that seen in X-Wing and Armada, keep the combat system.
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And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Charistoph

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #22 on: 15 May 2018, 10:54:54 »
Go to a movement/maneuver system similar to that seen in X-Wing and Armada, keep the combat system.

That doesn't really work.  Battletech doesn't have the gear to do repulsor lift tech, or whatever the heck it is, that allows for ships to operate in vacuum like they were in air.  It operates more on the physics we know in terms of thrust vectoring, and that doesn't work with the Wings of Glory system very well.  It's a lot more convenient to operate on that system, not doubt, but currently the fluff just doesn't support it at all.
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Nicoli

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #23 on: 15 May 2018, 14:07:33 »
That doesn't really work.  Battletech doesn't have the gear to do repulsor lift tech, or whatever the heck it is, that allows for ships to operate in vacuum like they were in air.  It operates more on the physics we know in terms of thrust vectoring, and that doesn't work with the Wings of Glory system very well.  It's a lot more convenient to operate on that system, not doubt, but currently the fluff just doesn't support it at all.
depends on how you do the turns. If you do it so that you place the model sideways at the end of a turn you get fairly close. Would it be perfect no, but near enough to be functional.

ColBosch

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #24 on: 15 May 2018, 14:25:15 »
I would be perfectly fine with changing the canon to fit new rules. It's been done before.
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Charistoph

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #25 on: 15 May 2018, 17:58:38 »
depends on how you do the turns. If you do it so that you place the model sideways at the end of a turn you get fairly close. Would it be perfect no, but near enough to be functional.

Not really.  How you do the turns has nothing to do with it.  If you are not taking inertia and momentum in to account, it stops being newtonian physics and becomes something else entirely.  X-Wing can work like Wings of Glory because their ships fly like they have resistance in turns and top speed to help them through their maneuvers.  Armada isn't much different, as they are still using engines which allow them to ignore those netwonian physics.  Battlespace is based on having to pay attention to those newtonian physics as much as the Honorverse game does.

It could be implemented, but it would change the game to being something completely different.
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Nicoli

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #26 on: 16 May 2018, 06:56:49 »
Not really.  How you do the turns has nothing to do with it.  If you are not taking inertia and momentum in to account, it stops being newtonian physics and becomes something else entirely.  X-Wing can work like Wings of Glory because their ships fly like they have resistance in turns and top speed to help them through their maneuvers.  Armada isn't much different, as they are still using engines which allow them to ignore those netwonian physics.  Battlespace is based on having to pay attention to those newtonian physics as much as the Honorverse game does.

It could be implemented, but it would change the game to being something completely different.
First, stop thinking you have to drop in a rule set in its entirety. When ever you apply thrust in aerospace you will always end up in the same location for that combination of initial speed and thrust. That means you can use x-wing style templates instead of calculating it every time. So we pull in the speed dial from Armada, ditch the movement dial from X-wing, make the facing of the ship separate from the direction of travel like the rotating turret arc in X-wing. Now your movement rules end up like this. Each turn you can spend a point of thrust to: Increase or decrease your speed by 1, increase your turn by 1(which determines your facing at the end of the move), or change your facing by 1 hex side after you move. One sentence and you can do everything you can do in the current rules except no math for the players.

Charistoph

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #27 on: 16 May 2018, 10:28:28 »
First, stop thinking you have to drop in a rule set in its entirety.

I will when that is the suggestion given without any modifiers.  Beachhead1985 literally stated using the X-Wing/Armada "movement/maneuver SYSTEM".

When ever you apply thrust in aerospace you will always end up in the same location for that combination of initial speed and thrust. That means you can use x-wing style templates instead of calculating it every time. So we pull in the speed dial from Armada, ditch the movement dial from X-wing, make the facing of the ship separate from the direction of travel like the rotating turret arc in X-wing. Now your movement rules end up like this. Each turn you can spend a point of thrust to: Increase or decrease your speed by 1, increase your turn by 1(which determines your facing at the end of the move), or change your facing by 1 hex side after you move. One sentence and you can do everything you can do in the current rules except no math for the players.

The problem is that either A) makes the templates pointless, or B) ignores the conservation of momentum that is currently in place in the game.  X-Wing templates don't work for conservation of momentum at all, save for maybe the bootleg.  The Armada template is clunky and still won't take CoM in to full account.

If you're willing to get rid of the conservation of momentum to just have it considered to be accounted in the maneuver, that's fine, but call it for what it is, and that is dropping the current system completely in favor of another.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

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Nicoli

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #28 on: 16 May 2018, 14:11:36 »
I will when that is the suggestion given without any modifiers.  Beachhead1985 literally stated using the X-Wing/Armada "movement/maneuver SYSTEM".

The problem is that either A) makes the templates pointless, or B) ignores the conservation of momentum that is currently in place in the game.  X-Wing templates don't work for conservation of momentum at all, save for maybe the bootleg.  The Armada template is clunky and still won't take CoM in to full account.

If you're willing to get rid of the conservation of momentum to just have it considered to be accounted in the maneuver, that's fine, but call it for what it is, and that is dropping the current system completely in favor of another.
Just as a heads up, current aerotech rules do not account for conservation of momentum. Because as is every person on a battletech warship dies the instant it fires its engines as the burn time for any maneuver is instantaneous. As for my suggestion it does keep conservation of momentum in place. If your trucking at 6 speed and you spend 3 thrust left or right your still burning at 6 speed. Just now in different direction. You want to cut tighter turn, you'd have to spend thrust to slow down and turn which is exactly what you have to do now. All this does is eliminate the weird hex movement system, and sacrifices some of the requirement to spend thrust to turn to apply thrust.

Sabelkatten

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Re: How would you change the Aerospace Rules?
« Reply #29 on: 16 May 2018, 16:03:04 »
Instant burn time is arguably a reasonable sacrifice to keep the play area from needing to be 200x200 hexes minimum...

My personal goal is to get rid of WarShips, followed by uniform construction rules for all space vessels and (somewhat) realistic fuel consumption. I'll see if I can dig up my old outline for a new construction system.

 

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