JumpShip of the Month (May 2011): Aquilla Class Transport

[gyedid]

Simplest thing would be to add the 1000 tons for each collar back to the cargo, and then give them other separate bays of at least 5000 tons each for the "drop-shuttles" described in that book...likely at least one for each DropShip collar they would later have...

Ruger

Yes, but then they suddenly have a whole lot less cargo to play with.  The Monsoon, for example, still faces a net loss of 24,000 tons of cargo.  How much does the 2372 Aegis lose?

Getting back to the subject of the thread, the Aquilla doesn't have any Dropship collars, as appropriate for its timeframe.  But if we assume it could accommodate 2 primitive "drop-shuttles", that leaves it with only 26,000 tons of cargo.  And that drives home just how inefficient the Aquilla was in the early colonization missions.  You might need 2 or 3 of them to establish a colony--at least one to carry the colonists themselves (plus rations for them and the Jumpship's crew), and at least one more to carry the infrastructure needed to start the colony.

cheers,

Gabe

[Ruger]

Yes, but then they suddenly have a whole lot less cargo to play with.  The Monsoon, for example, still faces a net loss of 24,000 tons of cargo.  How much does the 2372 Aegis lose?

The Aegis would lose around 16,000 tons under my scenario...which still gives it more cargo room than the later SL and Clan versions of the same ship...  ;)

Ruger

[Moonsword]

TRO 3057R has known... "issues" It is not a Catalyst "Modern" TRO and we can expect to see errata corrections when we get around to it. :)

As I stated originally, StratOps is quite consistent with at least some of what TRO3057R is getting at when it states that the docking collar had evolved by the twenty-fifth century, but not all of it (the main stand-out being the Dart).  Of course, that statement might be based on TRO3057R itself.

Additional research shows we also have two anecdotal reports in TRO3075 that are consistent with the dates from StratOps and TRO3057R.  The Manatee and the Du Shi Wang both seem to me to be intended to work with the modern concept of DropShips from the get-go and were introduced in 2449 and 2380, respectively.  Note that the Vampire explicitly describes itself as originally predating the K-F boom/drop collar pairing, something that the other two don't.  The Du Shi Wang would be very consistent with StratOps' statement that the technology was originally used with military vessels only.

[Maelwys]

Isn't relying on the Merc Supplemental II numbers sort of silly at this point?  While Merc Supplemental II does state 2470, TacOps should supersede it with its "Early Spaceflight" notation (and yes, that includes the K-F core according to the writeup).

Even if you take the more restrictive view that Strat Ops provides, the dates are still pushed back. The Compact Core was given a date of 2300, and "Shortly after" the K-F Booms were created. The "Modern" docking collar evolved by (indicating before) the 25th Century (2400), so its quite possible to have designs using them before 2400.

2470 is an old number and probably shouldn't be considered anymore.

Heck, even the data provided in StratOps is only provided ICly as far as I can tell so the 2200 date provided by TacOps should be still valid (maybe the University of Tharkad was pulling one over on the Lloyd Marik-Stanley Aerospace school).

[Moonsword]

Isn't relying on the Merc Supplemental II numbers sort of silly at this point?  While Merc Supplemental II does state 2470, TacOps should supersede it with its "Early Spaceflight" notation (and yes, that includes the K-F core according to the writeup).

Keep in mind that same section also refers to older, pre-K-F docking hardpoints which would definitely be appropriate at that point.  Since TacOps is treating them both as the same item (which they are from a construction point of view - the costs for the K-F components are buried elsewhere in the construction rules), that's not really a useful reference for the area under discussion.  StratOps is more authoritative since it's actually talking about the entire DropShip/JumpShip combination.  To argue that it's not binding because it's only an IC date is ignoring the fact that every date is only an IC date.

[gyedid]

Keep in mind that same section also refers to older, pre-K-F docking hardpoints which would definitely be appropriate at that point.

But, as you pointed out earlier, what use would a docking collar be without a K-F boom?  If early Dropships had to take off from a planet and dock to load a Jump/Warship, that would be fine, but how would the Jump/Warship be *un*loaded afterwards, especially if it was colonizing a new world that didn't yet have any infrastructure i.e. no Dropships already at the destination?

So that leaves the following options:

1) Ships that are listed as having docking collars before 2400 actually had something else before (internal "Drop-shuttle" bays), and were later retrofitted with collars and K-F booms.
2) Pre-boom docking collars were useful only for loading a ship at a well-equipped port of call, and would come into use only after enough worlds had the necessary infrastructure
3) The military had access to the docking collar/K-F boom combo well before civilian vessels did.
4) The listed dates are incorrect and we still have no real idea when docking collars were first equipped with K-F booms.

cheers,

Gabe

[gyedid]

To get this back on subject one more time...does anybody in the modern BT age still use the Aquilla?  The Jarnfolk perhaps?

cheers,

Gabe

[snow_fox]

Just wondering is the The Spider and the Wolf comic canon? if so there is a jumpship design in there that looks cool. under the command of Jamie Wolf.

[Frabby]

Just wondering is the The Spider and the Wolf comic canon? if so there is a jumpship design in there that looks cool. under the command of Jamie Wolf.

The comic as such is canon, but its graphical depiction(s) and details are not. This was previously discussed regarding the "Hornet" 'Mech that rather looks like a pimped Stinger. If the weird WD JumpShips are canon then they're not of any known class.
Interestingly, pretty much the same JumpShip type makes an appearance in the (apocryphal) Blackthorne BattleForce comic #2 - where previously, a standard Invader was also featured. So the artist knew how JumpShips normally look like...

[Moonsword]

But, as you pointed out earlier, what use would a docking collar be without a K-F boom?

Exactly what the description in TacOps and I both said it was - transferring cargo (and passengers, for that matter) between vessels, particularly without the aggravation of pulling one entirely inside it.  That's not a useless thing unless you're talking about moving through hyperspace.  It's what they're still used for on space stations when encountered.  TacOps strongly states that this evolved early on for those purposes and that it was later modified with the K-F boom.  We know that the modern docking collar doesn't predate the K-F core, after all, and ES includes time periods before Kearny and Fuchida's work was even reexamined.

I would note that ships are generally described in terms of DropShip capacity, not docking points.  The Vincent has no DropShip capacity but it certainly has the ability to dock with one and transfer cargo.

[I am Belch II]

Nice write up, the Aquilla is pretty nice for it being one of the first.

[glitterboy2098]

the Aquila seems to be the Btech answer to the question "what ship can i use to create a firefly type game?"

it's old enough to fit the "tramp freighter" trope, it's small enough that a player group can fill the main "command crew" positions and still seem plausible, and with it's large fuel capacity and (albiet weak) in system drive, you can justify leaving the jump point to go to a planet in the course of a story plot.

the reduced jump range might be a bit annoying from a story telling perspective, but it would open up option like "souped up drive" type tropes where custom mods by the engineering staff could eke out an extra couple of light years per jump.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Yep.  I'm digging the idea of an Aquillaas Tramp freighter: even at 100 kilotons, it's old and decrepit enough to be less desired, and underestimated.

Another ship that almost works in that role is the Explorer, since that can be run by as few as 3 people, though you need to use onboard shuttles to go dirtside or in-system.

[Wrangler]

The comic as such is canon, but its graphical depiction(s) and details are not. This was previously discussed regarding the "Hornet" 'Mech that rather looks like a pimped Stinger.

Not get too side tracked, the Hornet image unfortunately was actually Robotech Alpha Fighter in battleliod mode.  Which could get people thinking, that could been LAM design too... ::)

Anyways...I doubt anyone is actively using one these puppies.  Won't a ship that exclusively uses fusion engine to charge its KF drive be on the side of heavy maintence to keep going? Fusion engines that size could last nearly 600+ years (2400-3085).   With fiction, though you could see if possible they retrofitted Jump Sails on the ship that would been used on WarShips.  The sails themselves are super complicated to fold all that.

If it was salvaged, there was only ONE primitive Jumpship that was found.  It was in a short-story battlecorp wrote up while ago.  It would be interesting see if made to a museum orbit somewhere.

[gyedid]

Yep.  I'm digging the idea of an Aquillaas Tramp freighter: even at 100 kilotons, it's old and decrepit enough to be less desired, and underestimated.

Thing is, is the Aquilla still serviceable in the current timeframe?  It seems to me a Warship-capable yard would be necessary for maintenance--like Warships, the Aquilla has both a jump core and a transit drive--and a lot of the parts and subsystems may no longer be available.  We also don't know whether its primitive construction precludes retrofitting with later innovations like jump sails.
Unlike the case with 'Mechs and vehicles, the Aquilla looks like one piece of RetroTech that won't be making a comeback.

cheers,

Gabe

[Gryphon]

How cheap are sails? You could rig it so it doesn't have to furl them, just latches on to them, charges, unlatches from them, and jumps to a new site with another set of waiting sails. This might work for a periphery use before the resurgence of naval construction. Never takes the sails any closer to a planet than needed either. Deep space for long term charging, near space for fast term but potentially damaged sails. Feasible?

[Wrangler]

How cheap are sails? You could rig it so it doesn't have to furl them, just latches on to them, charges, unlatches from them, and jumps to a new site with another set of waiting sails. This might work for a periphery use before the resurgence of naval construction. Never takes the sails any closer to a planet than needed either. Deep space for long term charging, near space for fast term but potentially damaged sails. Feasible?

As far i know, sails are NOT cheap.  JumpShips themselves are nearly lost tech by end of the Jihad, with handful of manufactures out there.  Having ability produce sails is largely unknown, but i would assume their would almost never be mass produced nearly enough to leave trail of jumpsails for Aquilla or another primitive ship boot strap on.

A Charge Station is another question though, i haven't read enough about them to know if the primitive ships would be compatible with thoses.

[Gryphon]

I thought the greatest expense was the core itself, not the sails. My understanding is that damage is a common, constant concern, but that patching is possible, and replacement is also fairly doable too. This might be harder to do in the periphery, but it must be something they do, otherwise all of their ships are kaput. After all, for something so fragile, it is inconceivable that the jumpships active in 3050, or even 3025, would be using the same sails, sort of like how a sailing ship needs to repair, and replace, all of its sails from time to time.

Also, another option is to use recharging stations, though this is likely to be well beyond the capabilities of most periphery states, so I can't really say how useful that idea is.

Another idea, build 10-12,000 ton mini recharging stations, each with a an attached sail, and set them in a predetermined jump point. Each charges up, and when needed, flushes its charge to a jumpship via laser, cable, whatever. I can even see a mini industry for this, using power exoskeletons or even fuel cell, space use, industrial mechs to maneuver the heavy cables around. I couldn't guess how much this would cost, but it would seem to be cheaper than a recharging station since it too is solar powered, much like jumpships.

[Moonsword]

The core and the K-F support systems are far and away the most expensive components while the sails are not terribly expensive at all.  The sail on a Merchant is only 2.3 million C-Bills vs. 246.05 million for the rest of the K-F components and the 120 million K-F drive support system.  They're not the cheapest component in the drive system, mind you, but they're not expensive.

I'm not going to get involved in commenting on the rest of this exercise.

[Gryphon]

I am inclined to say that even being cheap by comparison, a multi-million credit component still makes most of these ideas unlikely. It seems to me it would be better strategically to just incest in a real jumpship, rather than try to get any real use out of an outmoded jump capable transport instead. More expensive in the short term yes, but long term its both cheaper and far more flexible really. Though I am still amused by the mini jump recharge station idea, since it isn't dependent on the Aquila, but would work for all jump capable ships.

[Moonsword]

I should note those figures don't include the 1.25 cost multiplier, so 2.875 million vs. 307.5625 and 150 million for your final prices on components for a Merchant.  Please keep in mind that the Aquilla does not have a sail and wasn't designed to use one, nor do I have any insight on what pricing for such a thing would be.  Rules for that are presumably going to be in Interstellar Operations (which may also wind up causing errata on the Aquilla design - we don't have access to the rules that were used to design this thing yet!).

[Psyckosama]

I love this thing and hope Interstellar Ops comes out sometime in the next DECADE or so...

[oldfart3025]

Hm yes, I took a look at that little picture.  Cute.  However, the ship shown on the record sheet looks different from the one in the TRO writeup.  In particular, the nose(?) looks more boxy.

cheers,

Gabe

Doesn't anyone else, considering the book the pic appeared in, find it ironic that the ship is named the TAS Philadelphia?

[Moonsword]

*snorts*  I hadn't even made the connection but you're right.  Someone was working overtime on that one.

[sandstorm]

*snerk* Except I think Philadelphia experiment gets its name from location it allegedly happened... Not the ship involved. But it's tricksy connection anyway. :D

[Ruger]

*snerk* Except I think Philadelphia experiment gets its name from location it allegedly happened... Not the ship involved. But it's tricksy connection anyway. :D

Correct...the original Philadelphia Experiment supposedly took place about the destroyer escort, USS Eldridge...

Ruger

[HobbesHurlbut]

Wait, that ship in the art show the 'struts' you normally see for those JumpShips that have sails.

[Weirdo]

It's a Terran ship, they can afford to do refits like that, even if nobody else can.

[Moonsword]

It's a Terran ship, they can afford to do refits like that, even if nobody else can.

Refitting something with a sail may not require the sort of major rework of the core involved with a lithium-fusion battery or getting modern performance out of it, too.

[HobbesHurlbut]

Refitting something with a sail may not require the sort of major rework of the core involved with a lithium-fusion battery or getting modern performance out of it, too.

Yeah that's what I figured, you just need a power converter for the core's system to accept the charge from the sail.