Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread

[Church14]

The SYD epilogue was silly anyway. Telegraphing the survival of a faction so many years down the line kinda spoiled things for those of us who were enjoying the ride of seeing the metaplot unfolding in real-time.  I'm personally glad it was retconned out of existence, because it had no business existing to begin with.

I agree. I think there’s no positives to the 3250 blurbs in recent TROs. I feel the same about SYD’s ending. I only mentioned it because it contradicts basic assumptions people have about the republic.

Any future glimpses in a setting that isn’t ending/over are a mistake. There’s nothing to be gained from “and then this organization survived!,” because it robs tension from any threat they face until the lore passes that event.

[tassa_kay]

as the 3250 stuff. I'd argue that seemed like attempts by the leading devs and writers to project their favored plans much farther into the battletech future then it should have been.

The 3250 stuff was less about a favored plan and more a road not taken by TPTB, because they were planning a time jump to 3250.

[Knightmare]

Plans change, it happens. A lot of the plans for ending the Blackout have undergone revisions, sometime after products for a previously determined path have hit print. These are small bumps in the road, not the destination.

I like the direction story dev is headed, but I'm an impartial party.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

The 3250 blurbs are pretty much moot anyway. Since we're not doing any more large time jumps, we won't actually get to 3250 until around the same time the 11th Terran Rangers get founded. If they really, really feel the need to do away with them they can always just say "that was just Alaric writing fan fiction about himself" but that decision won't need to be made for another few decades.

[tassa_kay]

I want to like the direction things are going, but between the clear shifts in direction on some things due to changing line developers, to say nothing of the double gut punches of foolery that were HotW and the RasDom half of DD (the first BT book I actually kinda wish I didn't buy), it's a little difficult to maintain optimism for the future. But we'll see how things shake out, I suppose. Definitely gonna wait for a few reviews from posters whose taste I trust before I drop anything on iKEO.

[Minemech]

 I would not look down too much on DD, as it appears that an identity crisis has been forming in background among the Clans for some time. It feels sudden because there was very little in the fiction to point it out. The Clans moving to the Inner Sphere had deep lasting effects in part because their very model of life could only fail in the Inner Sphere. The Clans had relied on a zinger of a platonic noble lie. Of the Clans it appears that the Bears had an apt transition, but one that ate up a lot of their culture that was assumed defining. Still one also that lead to a bloody war. The Mongols had some similar issues in their distinctive Khanates. There was for instance a lot of intrigue between the sinophiles and those who preferred the older ways. There are problems, but covering the identity crisis of the Clans will make them more interesting in the long haul. I think the Wolves have the deepest problems of the bunch.

[tassa_kay]

I would not look down too much on DD, as it appears that an identity crisis has been forming in background among the Clans for some time. It feels sudden because there was very little in the fiction to point it out. The Clans moving to the Inner Sphere had deep lasting effects in part because their very model of life could only fail in the Inner Sphere. The Clans had relied on a zinger of a platonic noble lie. Of the Clans it appears that the Bears had an apt transition, but one that ate up a lot of their culture that was assumed defining. Still one also that lead to a bloody war. The Mongols had some similar issues in their distinctive Khanates. There was for instance a lot of intrigue between the sinophiles and those who preferred the older ways. There are problems, but covering the identity crisis of the Clans will make them more interesting in the long haul. I think the Wolves have the deepest problems of the bunch.

No offense intended, truly, but I really don't need to have DD explained to me for the umpteenth time. I get all that. And I still deeply disliked it to the point where if it were a physical copy, I'd have returned it. If you enjoyed it, awesome, but my comment was about how I felt, and I wasn't asking for a rebuttal on my personal taste.

This poor thread. ;D To somewhat bring it back on-topic, I think the way Church feels about the execution of the Republic's last days is rooted in the same reason I disliked DD so much: it seems like a square peg was shoved into a round hole in order to move the story from Point A to Point B, and the final result was really difficult to swallow.

[Minemech]

No offense intended, truly, but I really don't need to have DD explained to me for the umpteenth time. I get all that. And I still deeply disliked it to the point where if it were a physical copy, I'd have returned it. If you enjoyed it, awesome, but my comment was about how I felt, and I wasn't asking for a rebuttal on my personal taste.

This poor thread.  ;D

It is all good. I was not trying to rub it in, just play up the goodies that could come from it. I agree that a black hole is robbing the Republic from influence.

[tassa_kay]

It is all good. I was not trying to rub it in, just play up the goodies that could come from it.

I did enjoy seeing all of the different groups that make up the RasDom and them getting "airtime", so to speak. That's really the only positive I have to say about it, but it was an especially big positive because we really haven't seen much attention paid to them, much less the RasDom as a whole. Universe-building is always welcome in my book. I just wish it felt more organic and logical and less "ripped from American headlines", but it is what it is.

[Cannonshop]

I would not look down too much on DD, as it appears that an identity crisis has been forming in background among the Clans for some time. It feels sudden because there was very little in the fiction to point it out. The Clans moving to the Inner Sphere had deep lasting effects in part because their very model of life could only fail in the Inner Sphere. The Clans had relied on a zinger of a platonic noble lie. Of the Clans it appears that the Bears had an apt transition, but one that ate up a lot of their culture that was assumed defining. Still one also that lead to a bloody war. The Mongols had some similar issues in their distinctive Khanates. There was for instance a lot of intrigue between the sinophiles and those who preferred the older ways. There are problems, but covering the identity crisis of the Clans will make them more interesting in the long haul. I think the Wolves have the deepest problems of the bunch.

I'll look down on it, and without hesitation, because they didn't do the background work that makes the story consistent.

In some ways, it's right there with the same reason Church doesn't like what happened with the Republic.  the event itself wasn't the issue, it was dumping it out on the page and then being surprised when the audience didn't groove with it, it was "Hey, lets toss all the development we did that made this faction have fans at all!! Yeah, that'll work!!"

With DD, they went so far as to completely forget all the factors that were actually already present, and invent some totally new strawman to drive the action.

In the case of the RoTS, it's worse.  (yeah, I said 'worse') because none of it really holds together beyond retreading "Clanner more powerful you lose!!" mixed with "Yet another Steiner-Davion scion."

Really, the strategy was that bad, bad enough that trying to explain it looks like bagging on the Republic-because to get that level of incompetent and explain it, you end up having to bag on the Republic.

Pardoe's claimed model was "Downfall"-where the 3rd Reich ended.  The problem is, that downfall was driven by the fact that the 3rd Reich was so absolutely corrupt right out of the gate, and that's not the characterization of the Republic in all the material leading up to it.

The Republic didn't have an officer class driven to becoming so cynical they lied about their conditions, or a leadership so monofocused that they would kill someone for delivering bad news, the republic did NOT have units reading the writing on the wall and deserting their posts to surrender en-masse to one ally in order to avoid fighting the other.  The Republic didn't have conscripted children in front line formations because they'd used up their military age men to such a degree that was practical, the Republic didn't have death camps that had higher priority than line combat units in the middle of a ****** rout on the front lines.

His scenario basis was wrong, which made the product feel forced.  The same applies in many respects to Dominions Divided, because the events were grossly out of character and a time skip doesn't cure that.

Human nature: people tend to settle into patterns of behavior that work for them, and are seen as working for those with whom they, in turn work.  There were no precursors or indicators that the events in Dominions Divided was in any way, shape, or form, consistent with what was clearly (before it was published) working well enough to mud-stomp the Draconis Combine twice between the Jihad and Gray Monday.

the amount of cheap epoxy between the steel parts is visible and obvious.

This goes for both products.

[Minemech]

 The Fall of the Republic was a pellucid plot device. I do not think that the writers have tried to hide that but have focused on what can be built from it like a lot of new mercenary commands.

[tassa_kay]

Because that's what BattleTech needed instead of the Republic: more mercenaries!

::)

(not rolling my eyes at you, FYI, but the situation)

[Cannonshop]

Because that's what BattleTech needed instead of the Republic: more mercenaries!

::)

"Yeah, they have nice gear, no way to replace or supply it, and didn't these guys run like a bitch while their nation fell? Offer a quarter what they're asking, and don't expect them to fight."

Reputation is critical, the Dragoons could rebuild quickly between Misery and subsequent events, and got offered Outreach based on their reputation.

Most REpublic units are going to have shit for rep, especially if how the fall of Terra really happened gets out.

[Minemech]

 One of the old problems with mercenary units was how they outclassed house units. It was overdone. I have argued in past threads the the Wolf's Dragoons were the storyline for much of the early history of Battletech. I did not hold the same objection to all powerful mercenary commands.

[Minemech]

MadCap kinda agreed:

If the property owned by your unit constitutes one or more planetary surfaces.......your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your merc unit's solo operations can accurately described as a "front" in an interstellar war.....your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your merc unit's custom 'Mech design is now a made-to-order product of a major manufacturing firm.....your mercs might be a little out of control.
If your counter-intelligence team's training manual is the target of a major ROM operation.....your mercs might be a little out of control.

[Cannonshop]

MadCap kinda agreed:

good point.

[Croix129]

The 3250 stuff was less about a favored plan and more a road not taken by TPTB, because they were planning a time jump to 3250.

True, but in that case, they should be removed from the publications if they are now non-canon. Same as the epilogue for SYD was.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Just because we're not having a time jump from 3150 to 3250 doesn't mean that they're not canon.  And I don't know why anyone is acting like just because Herb's planned time jump was canceled means that Battletech will never see another time jump again: Battletech has had plenty of time jumps before so there's no reason to assume they're never going to do so again.

[Croix129]

I really do feel bad for OP at this point, but if we're gonna talk about DD again, I wanna share my own opinion on that one. Of the four ilclan sourcebooks, it was by far the weakest and the most "plotty". Like, sooo many things for the RasalDom takes place because the plot calls for it, not because they make any sense. Very much like HotW, TBH. Now, maybe if the Bears had gotten their own novel or two BEFORE this mess came out, the RD stuff would have felt more natural. As it was, it felt like tons of tension was magically pulled out of knowwhere to explain away the events necessary for the plot (ie the destabilization of the Dominion, the vote to join the Third SL, the social crises and the decision to go to war with the Dragons). I'm hoping that DD was an aberration, and the next sourcebook will return to the high of EA, but I am a bit concerned.

[Croix129]

Just because we're not having a time jump from 3150 to 3250 doesn't mean that they're not canon.  And I don't know why anyone is acting like just because Herb's planned time jump was canceled means that Battletech will never see another time jump again: Battletech has had plenty of time jumps before so there's no reason to assume they're never going to do so again.

The issue, for me at least, isn't the cancelled timejump, but the events that are "hinted" at after said timejump. As it sits now, keeping the 3250 stuff canon means a limitation on the future writers and devs, as they are forced to deal with an (apparent) large ilClan that rules a very significant part of the Inner Sphere. As the century timeskip has been confirmed abandoned, then the potential millstone should be removed.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't recall any of the hints confirming anything beyond there being an ilClan.

[Croix129]

I don't recall any of the hints confirming anything beyond there being an ilClan.

Several things were mentioned in the 3250 stuff. From Sarna's page on the "third" Star league:

"While the exact makeup of this Star League's government is unknown, it did include an ilKhan and a Loremaster.[1] Territory-wise, the League excluded as least part of the Periphery.[4]

Dissenting forces such as the Lost Command and "Renegades" had emerged as opponents to the League by 3250. Units known as Auditor Clusters were tasked with seeking out unauthorized industry and military manufacturing throughout both the League and the Periphery, in part to forestall these dissidents' efforts."

So that's a not insignificant amount of hints. Moreover, I'd argue that establishing that an ilClan exists in 3250 is by itself a problem. Its the same same issue of SYD's epilogue establishing a surviving Republic in the 3150s.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That's hints that something his happening, but assuming what it is is like making assumptions based on the minute bits of lore that were included with the Mechwarrior: Dark Age starter box.  You know, the ones that when we finally actually got a good look at the Dark Age turned out to be wildly different from what people actually thought they were going to be because we didn't have the big picture.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Just because we're not having a time jump from 3150 to 3250 doesn't mean that they're not canon.  And I don't know why anyone is acting like just because Herb's planned time jump was canceled means that Battletech will never see another time jump again: Battletech has had plenty of time jumps before so there's no reason to assume they're never going to do so again.

I said that they weren't doing any large time jumps, and the reason that I think that is because Ray outright said that they weren't and identified the huge jump from Jihad to dark age as a major mistake during a live stream.

To that end, I can't imagine them doing a jump larger than a decade or two ever again, because forcibly retiring everybody's characters is kind of lame.

True, but in that case, they should be removed from the publications if they are now non-canon. Same as the epilogue for SYD was.

I think I should point out that the difference is that the ilClan is a plot device that CGL's writers came up with, whereas the Republic is a piece of furniture they inherited from a different company. They may be more interested in keeping some form of the idea that they had around then the thing they never wanted in the first place.

[Church14]

The Fall of the Republic was a pellucid plot device. I do not think that the writers have tried to hide that but have focused on what can be built from it like a lot of new mercenary commands.

It was a plot device to enable a story about another faction who has no thematic relation to the RotS. That’s a bad plot device. Look at the Jags. Jags died because they were representative of the worst parts of the clans, and their death slammed shut the clan invasion. RotS just died for the ilClan to be born.

So, on a high level, I was okay with the Republic falling. I think killing a major faction in a wargame is generally a bad idea, but it can be done. But if you do, a few things should happen:
1) It should be done with a sober respect of what is happening.
2) It should really be because of the actions of the faction itself.
3) The plot of that storyline should be focused on that faction.
4) The faction should get to extract a cost from those who end it.

None of that occurred. That’s why the fall feels bad. The author openly hated the faction and compared them to the third reich, a the story was about the wolves, the RotS died because it was in Alaric’s way, and it achieved 0 - count them - zero victories and inflicted functionally zero losses on either clan. All that in half a novel where they weren’t even Alaric’s real obstacle. It was a damn insulting way to end the faction. Which, somehow, was supposed to actually be worsenifnyou read about the removed bits of the book that were so bad even they were abandoned (where the RAF immediately and gleefully shacked up with Alaric to curbstomp the horses).

The fall of the republic would have been easier to accept if they’d just died at the end of Shattered Fortress with “and then Alaric took Terra” and no details offered.

And while canonshop looks for an in universe explanation for the whole sequence… I have given up trying because it really isn’t possible. It doesn’t make sense, they shouldn’t have lost, and Wolves as ilClan in the way they achieved it isnt justifiable with preexisting in universe logic. You can’t even reconcile HotW’s story inside HotW. The numbers inside the novel make no sense.

So yeah. That’s my issue. As Tassa put it. Square peg, round hole.

[Metallgewitter]

Does Alaric even have overwhelming numbers at present?

Alaric has a handful of Warships (most of them need service now) and I think he has 29 clusters left on Terra. His empire raised 2 Galaxies out of what they had If my memory serves me right and those are currently getting kicked around or even absorvbed by the Dragoons and the Free worlds. Yes alaric offered all bonded RAf troopers a chance to fight for him but from what I understood is that a good portion of the Ilclan trial survivors told him to shove it because they didn't want female Hitler to rule Terra. And I am pretty sure 29 clusters who are probably not at full strength is not enpugh to stop the confederation even of they lost some line units due to the wall and ifghting against the Fedsuns. And let's not forget just like Amaris abandoned his home realm Alaric did the same and is now paying for it. He is very reliant on the good graces of the foxes to keep Terra's military production running and it seems as if the foxes are extracting a hefty price for it.

Also who said Terra can run on Auto pilot? You know what was lost during the trial? Geneva, the nerve center of Terra (thanks to the Falcons no less) Yes Alaric is rebuilding Unity City but try to rule a planet of 10-12 billion people who might live through some very serious shortages right now without proper ministries. Alaric can't pull the "I destroy you for being uppity" card often lest he turns the entire planet against him. After all there are still a lot of ex-RAF soldiers on the planet (not to mention special forces or Phantoms). They don't forget how to use simple weapons just because their employer is gone. Heck we don't even know if Japan has told the Wolves to suck it and come get them either. For all we know they might still be playing "Fortress Japan" since they were never beaten. And coming to my first point: alaric doesn't have reinforcements. No new Wolf warriors are coming. IF there is only a slight resistance movement on the planet that manages o kill some warriors that sting is felt.

[Church14]

Alaric has a handful of Warships (most of them need service now) and I think he has 29 clusters left on Terra. His empire raised 2 Galaxies out of what they had If my memory serves me right and those are currently getting kicked around or even absorvbed by the Dragoons and the Free worlds. Yes alaric offered all bonded RAf troopers a chance to fight for him but from what I understood is that a good portion of the Ilclan trial survivors told him to shove it because they didn't want female Hitler to rule Terra. And I am pretty sure 29 clusters who are probably not at full strength is not enpugh to stop the confederation even of they lost some line units due to the wall and ifghting against the Fedsuns. And let's not forget just like Amaris abandoned his home realm Alaric did the same and is now paying for it. He is very reliant on the good graces of the foxes to keep Terra's military production running and it seems as if the foxes are extracting a hefty price for it.

I haven’t checked to see what Capellan units near Terra are just mech or which ones are RCTs. But Capellans should have something like 25-30 regiments spread across a dozen worlds near Terra. If we still believe for some reason than a cluster can fight a regiment, Capellans should have a little more strength near Terra than Capellans. Falcons and Jags don’t meaningfully affect that.

With initiative, Alaric could try to quickly hit worlds, inflict casualties while trying to achieve defeat in detail. So he doesn’t have overwhelming numbers overall, but could try to concentrate force for overwhelming numbers right that moment. That said, all it takes is Alaric’s Intel to be wrong once for that to backfire and he suffers casualties amongst his forces. Or Capellans are set up to respond faster than Alaric anticipated.

So, not really overwhelming force in the typical way.

[Minemech]

 The Capellans by nature make extensive use of combined arms, RCTs are a concept that was always weird in-universe. I will keep the RCT rant out of it, assume the Cappies have extensive armor and infantry concentrations. The aerospace arm was traditionally their weakness.

[Wrangler]

Question is will Alaric be fighting alone or will he have his allied force fight with the Wolf touman?   Something appears to have happened or been suggested on Northwind with Falcons with what gleam of promo stuff I've seen.  I do think the rebuilding Clans Smoke Jaguar & Falcons would be assisting with the fight.

As for others (not counting the Hell's Horses or possibly Sea Foxes)   I'd expect the Ghost Bears in some degree and Ravens would be involved as well.

[Minemech]

Question is will Alaric be fighting alone or will he have his allied force fight with the Wolf touman?   Something appears to have happened or been suggested on Northwind with Falcons with what gleam of promo stuff I've seen.  I do think the rebuilding Clans Smoke Jaguar & Falcons would be assisting with the fight.

As for others (not counting the Hell's Horses or possibly Sea Foxes)   I'd expect the Ghost Bears in some degree and Ravens would be involved as well.

The Bears are supposed to be heading for a war against the Combine at a horrible time to do so. Expect a massacre, the DCMS will have achieved a clawing if you will.