WarShip of the Week: Defender

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Are you sure about that?  They had ferro-carbide, yes, but lamellor was used sparingly even by the Terran Hegemony--only on two ship classes (Kimagure and Texas), both made by the same manufacturer IIRC.  The FSN of the post-Clan Invasion has lamellor, yes (used magnificently on the Avalon).

I do agree the Defender could have received an armour upgrade (even IFA would make a substantial difference), but the other things would've required structural changes on the order of turning the 2372 Aegis into the SLDF/Clan Aegis (ha ha).

It still boggles my mind why the FSN kept this clearly obsolete ship in service for so long, as flagships no less.

cheers,

Gabe

Oops you are right Gabe. They had ferro-carbide during that time. Still an improvement over IFA or standard though.

[gyedid]

If retiring them was no guarantee that you'd be able to obtain replacement hulls that you wouldn't have otherwise, would you?

It's not just keeping the ships themselves in service, but the Dropshuttles too, when everyone else has gone to standard Dropships and docking collars (and all the other ship classes in your fleet use those), and the need to keep around maintenance facilities just for those idiosyncracies, and to keep training maintenance crews to service those features no other ship retains, and the need to be able to manufacture obsolete parts...etc., etc.  Shipyards just wouldn't consider it worth the expense and headache...kind of like that story Cray used to tell about the backup diesel engines on American subs.

So, despite the fact that Defenders may have had a prestige attached to them in the FSN much like that attached to Monsoons by the Terran/SLDF navy, at some point the FS admiralty should've come to realize that the supply and maintenance chain needed to keep those ships serviceable just wasn't worth it.

cheers,

Gabe

[Weirdo]

They did. Remember, the Defender's description says they spent most of their time in mothballs, only brought out when they were truly needed.

[nerd]

It's not just keeping the ships themselves in service, but the Dropshuttles too, when everyone else has gone to standard Dropships and docking collars (and all the other ship classes in your fleet use those), and the need to keep around maintenance facilities just for those idiosyncracies, and to keep training maintenance crews to service those features no other ship retains, and the need to be able to manufacture obsolete parts...etc., etc.  Shipyards just wouldn't consider it worth the expense and headache...kind of like that story Cray used to tell about the backup diesel engines on American subs.

You mean the Fairbanks-Morse ND 38 8-1/8, opposed piston two stroke diesel generator? That old thing, but the Auxiliary Division guys who ran it swore by it (or at it).

[Diablo48]

It still boggles my mind why the FSN kept this clearly obsolete ship in service for so long, as flagships no less.

Honestly, if you are going to press a large, obsolete ship into service, a flagship is a good use for it because it gives your commander a nice ride to keep him safe while freeing up your capitol ships to engage as needed without risking fleet cohesion.

[gyedid]

Honestly, if you are going to press a large, obsolete ship into service, a flagship is a good use for it because it gives your commander a nice ride to keep him safe while freeing up your capitol ships to engage as needed without risking fleet cohesion.

A nice safe ride for the commander, eh?  Well I think I'd want something a bit more durable than a Defender for that purpose.
And as for freeing up capital assets, the Defender, despite its great age, was still the heaviest class in the FSN when the 1st SW broke out, was it not?

cheers,

Gabe

[FedSunsBorn]

I don't mind that they kept bringing them back into service but why not make a Block II version somewhere down the line of hundreds of years of use? They did it for the Davion class Destroyer so why not this ship?

[Arvanna]

Considering how quickly it was rendered obsolete you would have expected them to have worked up a Block II version rather then simply sit by while the other Houses fielded newer , big ships. I mean they retired the Block I Davions and replaced them with the Block IIs as well as fielding other new classes. Just getting by with Terran left overs for heavies is stupid, building your own capital ships then was a matter of national pride and with the Capellans fielding their own battleship I can't see the Suns not fielding at least a modernized battle cruiser to offset that.

[gyedid]

Considering how quickly it was rendered obsolete you would have expected them to have worked up a Block II version rather then simply sit by while the other Houses fielded newer , big ships. I mean they retired the Block I Davions and replaced them with the Block IIs as well as fielding other new classes. Just getting by with Terran left overs for heavies is stupid, building your own capital ships then was a matter of national pride and with the Capellans fielding their own battleship I can't see the Suns not fielding at least a modernized battle cruiser to offset that.

Technically they did.  It's called a New Syrtis.  ;)  Seriously, basing a new class off of the New Syrtis, dropping all the fighters and small craft for other things (extra guns, armour, drop collars) would've been a quick way to come up with a new battlecruiser rather than keep an obsolete hangar queen like the Defender around.  But, such a ship wouldn't be able to dogfight (in Warship terms) the way a Defender can.  It would be much more conventional, like a Black Lion (II) or Tharkad.

cheers,

Gabe

[Welshman]

I don't mind that they kept bringing them back into service but why not make a Block II version somewhere down the line of hundreds of years of use? They did it for the Davion class Destroyer so why not this ship?

As has been discussed in this thread before, making a Block II of pre-Drop Collar WarShips is not very practical. Since one of the first things someone would want to do is change out the bays for collars. The most you could do is upgrade the weapons and maybe the armor.

[Dragon Cat]

As has been discussed in this thread before, making a Block II of pre-Drop Collar WarShips is not very practical. Since one of the first things someone would want to do is change out the bays for collars. The most you could do is upgrade the weapons and maybe the armor.

I think what is meant by the Block II in this case is a ground up redesign using the technology as it progressed not a refit but new hulls

Now considering the FSN shipyards were pumping out Davion II, New Syrtis and Robinsons by that point maybe the admiralty didn't see the need to spend a mountain on what would effectively been a new design based around a hill that was considered to be a failure

[gyedid]

As has been discussed in this thread before, making a Block II of pre-Drop Collar WarShips is not very practical. Since one of the first things someone would want to do is change out the bays for collars. The most you could do is upgrade the weapons and maybe the armor.

Curious...just how large, and how modern, a craft could the Dropshuttle bays accommodate?  Were they limited to Dropshuttles in use when the Defender was first built, or could they take on Dropships built at later times?  Aerodynes maybe, if not spheroids?

cheers,

Gabe

[DarthRads]

How much do DropShuttle bays weigh? Is it the full 20 000t of the capacity or is it like 10% of the mass of the ship to be transported? Anone know?

[Arvanna]

No clue but after imputing everything else in I had 9,038.5 tons left over for the four bays if that tells us anything?

[Jellico]

I think what is meant by the Block II in this case is a ground up redesign using the technology as it progressed not a refit but new hulls

Now considering the FSN shipyards were pumping out Davion II, New Syrtis and Robinsons by that point maybe the admiralty didn't see the need to spend a mountain on what would effectively been a new design based around a hill that was considered to be a failure

Or a new design at all.

Davion IIs, Congresses, Robinsons and New Syrtis. Just where is the need for a battle cruiser again?

[Arvanna]

The Hegemony already had the Texas why the need to design and build the McKenna?

[BrokenMnemonic]

Because the Hegemony was driven by the desire to utterly dominate everybody else when it came to WarShip actions. Why else did the Star League have a WarShip fleet 40 times the size of their next nearest competitor?

For all we know, the FedSuns was concentrating on ships up to Congress class because the Defender was outclassed so quickly, making large ships unpalatable, or maybe they were more concerned about the threat from the Draconis Combine - with their carriers and high-powered fast destroyers - than they were either the handful of heavy Capellan ships or the odds of the SLDF going to war with them.

[Welshman]

Curious...just how large, and how modern, a craft could the Dropshuttle bays accommodate?  Were they limited to Dropshuttles in use when the Defender was first built, or could they take on Dropships built at later times?  Aerodynes maybe, if not spheroids?

Rules for Drop Shuttle bays will be in Interstellar Operations.

I'm not sure we've covered DropShips trying to use a DropShuttle bay. One thing for certain is Spheroids wouldn't be able to use them. Just not the right shape or maneuverability.

[Weirdo]

To my knowledge, no rules for DropShuttles or their bays have been published whatsoever.

[Dragon Cat]

Or a new design at all.

Davion IIs, Congresses, Robinsons and New Syrtis. Just where is the need for a battle cruiser again?

Bingo, it failed once no need to waste the resources on more.  Instead build designs that are useful.  I'm guessing the only reason the Defenders were ever pressed back into service was because a) the FSN needed every hull and b) Admirals in the FSN had served on them and couldn't bear to see them be broken up

[Wrangler]

Bingo, it failed once no need to waste the resources on more.  Instead build designs that are useful.  I'm guessing the only reason the Defenders were ever pressed back into service was because a) the FSN needed every hull and b) Admirals in the FSN had served on them and couldn't bear to see them be broken up

As a side note, alot of the older 1st generation WarShips made for the Great Houses seem to been basis for later WarShips.  Making improved "Block IIs" or more importantly new designs using the 1st generation design as the basis.   The Defender seems to have been on the exceptions of being not being used as template for later designs.   Considering the ship is a chain saw against other ships with its speed and Naval autocannons, I'd hope they would have made least better vessel based on it. 

[gyedid]

I'm not sure we've covered DropShips trying to use a DropShuttle bay. One thing for certain is Spheroids wouldn't be able to use them. Just not the right shape or maneuverability.

Let me be a bit more clear:  there is a particular Dropship I'm thinking of, one known to be used by the AFFS in an aerospace deployment role...

cheers,

Gabe

[gyedid]

Let me be a bit more clear:  there is a particular Dropship I'm thinking of, one known to be used by the AFFS in an aerospace deployment role...

Alright, I see need to be pretty direct here.

Is it possible, even in theory, for a Defender to accommodate a Vengeance in one of its Dropshuttle bays?

cheers,

Gabe

[Weirdo]

To be equally direct:

We don't know, and cannot know until DropShuttle bays are published.

[Arvanna]

Yep they haven't put out the rules yet, though the bays on the Defender are rated as 20k bays. It would be neat if you could pack 8 Vengeance s into those 4 bays or a lot of Achilles and  Avengers  >:D

[gyedid]

Yep they haven't put out the rules yet, though the bays on the Defender are rated as 20k bays. It would be neat if you could pack 8 Vengeance s into those 4 bays or a lot of Achilles and  Avengers  >:D

And if you can, then suddenly the FSN's decision to keep the Defenders around suddenly seems like the most remarkable foresight :P

cheers,

Gabe

[Weirdo]

Yep they haven't put out the rules yet, though the bays on the Defender are rated as 20k bays. It would be neat if you could pack 8 Vengeance s into those 4 bays or a lot of Achilles and  Avengers  >:D

Or it could be that each bay can only hold a single ship ever, and each of those bays can handle ships up to 20 kilotons, kinda like vehicle bays. We just don't know.

And if you can, then suddenly the FSN's decision to keep the Defenders around suddenly seems like the most remarkable foresight :P

Yeah, on top of the numerous other extremely good reasons! O0

[Scotty]

New quirk: Compact Dropship. ^-^

[Wrangler]

If the DropShip is less than 5k, it should fit without problem if you go by what little we know about Dropshuttle bays.

[DarthRads]

Yep they haven't put out the rules yet, though the bays on the Defender are rated as 20k bays. It would be neat if you could pack 8 Vengeance s into those 4 bays or a lot of Achilles and  Avengers  >:D

If they can, that would be...nasty!