BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Papabees on 06 July 2018, 12:07:30
-
In an effort to move play along with Cluster Hits I'm thinking of incorporating this into my games. As a player would that bother you, bum you out, indifferent. I've found it pretty slick for anything that hits multiple locations. And only for locations not the to hit itself. I just wondered about others opinions on the matter?
-
A couple of our local players already use a custom Android App for cluster hits, and it seems to work pretty well.
This seems like a good optimization, and much less of a noise hazard than the popular "box of death".
-
I would not mind it. I think it would speed things up a little, and because I never bothered getting around to making a box o death.
-
I'd be indifferent if it were being used by a player I knew and trusted.
I'd have a full bore hate on for it at a tournament or even casual play with someone I didn't know and trust. A) It's just "against the spirit" of a game to simulate dice rolls (IMO) but even moreso B) it's too easy to manipulate digital die rolls. Granted physical dice rolls can also be manipulated... but at least in that case you have a reasonable opportunity to spot the cheating.
-
I like for Clusters (what...I hit with 16 LB20X hits! :o)
I could roll 16 times or 1 button push!
-
Its all about prior agreement, if all participating players are amicable to the use of the program.
-
As long as I had no suspicions of the program being rigged or otherwise nonrandom, and the player always kept the device in the open so fellow players could see each roll clearly(no worries about hiding a bad roll or quickly rerolling before others can see), I'd have no issues whatsoever. If you distrust someone enough that this doesn't assuage you, then why are you spending your leisure time with them?
-
If you worry your opponent's dice roller APP is cheaty, suggest to him you use it as well, same with actual dice.
-
My biggest worry is them tapping the roll button again with a bad roll. It is not sanity checked by another player.
Amongst friends I'd allow it, but in a tournament setting I would prefer against it, and if required due to disability would want it face up on the table and rolled with a single touch.
-
i know one BT die roller out there makes noise when 'rolled'. an requires a separate tap of a different button to clear the screen
-
[Boring Old Fart (BOF) hat on]
I can’t say I like the idea. As far as I’m aware there is no such thing as a truly random number generator and would rather trust dice I can see bounce accross the table.
Though to be fair I’ve played against guys with weighted dice which isn’t much fun either.
Challenger
-
[Boring Old Fart (BOF) hat on]
I can’t say I like the idea. As far as I’m aware there is no such thing as a truly random number generator and would rather trust dice I can see bounce accross the table.
Though to be fair I’ve played against guys with weighted dice which isn’t much fun either.
It doesn't need to be the Platonic ideal of randomness - physical dice aren't. It just needs to be random enough that there's no bias that anyone can be aware of, and any half-decent RNG manages that. I wouldn't use them to encode national security material, but I'm perfectly happy using them for a game.
-
It doesn't need to be the Platonic ideal of randomness - physical dice aren't. It just needs to be random enough that there's no bias that anyone can be aware of, and any half-decent RNG manages that. I wouldn't use them to encode national security material, but I'm perfectly happy using them for a game.
Yes.
Any inked & tumbled gaming die is likely to have a measurable bias. You have to go out of your way to get really high quality, random dice. (i.e. with very tight tolerances on their rolling balance)
-
In an effort to move play along with Cluster Hits I'm thinking of incorporating this into my games. As a player would that bother you, bum you out, indifferent. I've found it pretty slick for anything that hits multiple locations. And only for locations not the to hit itself. I just wondered about others opinions on the matter?
I'd prefer it actually. Maybe have a larger tablet, and let everyone share it in case someone has some rather extreme worries about cheating. Its far more likely you'll come across someone with biased dice than someone manipulating a dice roller. I'd be ok with all dice rolls being replaced, including to hit and initiative.
I hink an optimal setup would be a wall mounted display, or something else easily visible. Random is random, who cares if its dice or from a mouse click?
-
I'd be indifferent if it were being used by a player I knew and trusted.
I'd have a full bore hate on for it at a tournament or even casual play with someone I didn't know and trust. A) It's just "against the spirit" of a game to simulate dice rolls (IMO) but even moreso B) it's too easy to manipulate digital die rolls. Granted physical dice rolls can also be manipulated... but at least in that case you have a reasonable opportunity to spot the cheating.
:this:
-
I'd be indifferent if it were being used by a player I knew and trusted.
I'd have a full bore hate on for it at a tournament or even casual play with someone I didn't know and trust. A) It's just "against the spirit" of a game to simulate dice rolls (IMO) but even moreso B) it's too easy to manipulate digital die rolls. Granted physical dice rolls can also be manipulated... but at least in that case you have a reasonable opportunity to spot the cheating.
Same. I'd be ok with it in home games, if it was done by someone i knew and trusted, but would NOT trust it in any tournament game..
-
It's a really good idea considering the #1 issue many have is die roles but people have a built in mistrust of in random number generators. Considering how often my table changes out dice (as often as a craps table at the casino) and Hellbie infamously melting his die down in a parking lot after a legendary bad number of rolls, it's fair to say our mistrust in any one RNG, physical or digital, boarders on pathological.
That said; it's really a tool that needs to be accepted to bridge the gap between table top and digital gaming, spirit of the game be damned. It will need to be vetted to hell and back to be excepted at the table. I remember a few people posting they used Megamek on a laptop for GMing large games so community may already have a golden standard for BT community.
-
I would be upset and insist that I be allowed to use my death box, as shown below. It is like an adult rattle.
-
No, I don't even like the idea of people using dice that are "exclusives" much. If the dice seem to be as horrible as they are good, then it helps gain acceptance. If they are always rolling high, then that is going to invite criticism. At one point it actually got 2 people to go out and buy a block of dice in the hopes that everyone would agree to use them.
The most criticism that any of my dice has received were the official BT dice that came out the other year. "I can't see what the numbers are." Was the main complaint, well the only complaint received several times. But, when I'm calling out misses on shots that needed a measly 5+ to hit, it's hard for anyone to feel as though the design is helping me in any way possible, other then to hide just how horrible the rolls are!
Regarding RNGs, I know to much about psychology and sadistics to feel comfortable with them. Its not about not trusting the other person, its about knowing not to trust the other person. People will try to roll dice without declaring what it's for, then act like they were "getting the bad rolls out before making their shot", but next time they roll well they will declare a hit and act as though they did declare or forgot and if you don't trust them then you are the questionable one. I can deal with a lot of fresh fertilizer, but I want everyone at the table to not only have a fair game, but to also have the perception of a fair game on top of it. A lot of fragile egos, short child like tempers, and mistrust can ruin a game fast.
If someone rolls really well on an RNG but nobody declared or saw if it was a single button push then that opens a can of worms. Making sound when one pushes the button? Cute, but that volume can be turned down. Someone can "accidentally" tap it again while trying to show you the results. You might be able to trust someone with a grand sitting on the table, but not trust them to not panic and try to reroll. RNGs are flawed, but so are dice, right? Sure, but I can always have you use my biased dice instead, or have you swap yours out, or I use yours, but I cannot modify your RNG. I cannot modify the perception of a 3rd player by telling you to change RNGs, or reroll the RNG.
In the end its a lot easier to mess with an RNG result then it is to change a roll of dice that is observable by all parties and anyone else that you want to ask to observe as a neutral party. If you are going to be rolling clusters like crazy, you better have several pairs of dice of various designs. Hell, even if you have a lot of them I could just say "roll the dice and write them down and we'll get back to you in a minute". While you could try to fudge the dice rolls someone else is going to be watching out of interest which helps to check anyone that is trying to cheat. Their responses, verbal or body language will give me a means of observing your dice results to some degree. Things are just a lot easier if people can see it.
Playing MM is to agree upon using it's RNG, but it also locks individuals out by doing the dice roll one time. It would be a lot harder to cheat that way then with an RNG on a phone or tablet at a table, especially in a noisy game store where one could turn the sound down.
-
As long as the player or players put their phone on the table so everyone can see the result and nobody can get up to shenanigans, go for it. I’m in favor of anything that speeds up play. It makes me wonder if CGL couldn’t create an official app for offloading the dice rolling and to-hit calculations to help new players along. I *think* the Fantasy Flight games have similar companion programs.
-
No problem for me. It's a game. No ones life depends on it. It would be fun to see if whatever gremlin I gave that gives me such terrible dice luck can make the upgrade to electronic dice??.. 😁 But for me, I like the noisy rattle of dice rolling and ruining my cunning strategy!! 😂
Seriously, all the concern here about cheating and angsty bitterness makes me think it's way more likely to be a player issue than a game mechanics issue. I've never sat down to a game saying "now, what's the best way to insure I don't get cheated..." that just sounds like a real buzz-kill. 😕
-
As stated, this is the one I have used in the past for HOME GAMES:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.boredrobot.btdice
And below is a screen shot of the 'main' screen.
As you can see, it is all there, visible. And is tracked, and only goes away when cleared. If you really distrust your opponent, tap the button your self for a roll, and then tell him, he can have the next roll to count so there is a 'marked roll'
So, in the picture, you can see, the person is shooting at a mech into it's front arc. The top 4 rolls are standard 2d6 to hit rolls. The app does not know what you need to hit, just that rolled the dice.
Next two rolls ould be using the large HIT LOCATION button on the left side of the screen.
Below is an LRM 20 with Artemis (hence the 9+2), which then rolls for location.
On older tables you can even use the Hit Location and Floating Critical rules out of TAC OPS, but I don;t know if the programmer has change the access for newer devices.
Second image is the CLUSTER TABLE, allowing good things like, rolling for them pesky LB20X :D
-
It doesn't need to be the Platonic ideal of randomness - physical dice aren't. It just needs to be random enough that there's no bias that anyone can be aware of, and any half-decent RNG manages that. I wouldn't use them to encode national security material, but I'm perfectly happy using them for a game.
Agreed, but I’d still rather accept the physical limitations of a ‘real’ dice than accept the ‘invisible’ calculations of a computer.
I’m not going to pretend my position is particularly logical, but I’d be very unhappy to allow my opponent to use an app rather than actual dice. I prefer to see the dice tumble.
Challenger
-
...
Seriously, all the concern here about cheating and angsty bitterness makes me think it's way more likely to be a player issue than a game mechanics issue. I've never sat down to a game saying "now, what's the best way to insure I don't get cheated..." that just sounds like a real buzz-kill. 😕
I guess it depends on how often you're facing the WAAC mindset across the table. Between having lived through the introduction of the Clans in BattleTech to playing a few editions of 40K to seeing die rolling apps with programmed functions purposely made to cheat the die rolls in hidden windows so the app can stand up to dubious opponents' scrutiny... I'm hesitant to initially trust strangers' sense of fair play when it comes to wargaming.
Call me a pessimist. If I don't know my opponent, I assume he's WAAC until evidence indicates otherwise.
-
As stated, this is the one I have used in the past for HOME GAMES:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.boredrobot.btdice
I've this one too. Love it.
-
It's an interesting idea. I don't think I'd have a big problem with it. I don't think I'd really be playing with someone I didn't trust not to cheat in the first place.
It's a total pipedream but I would totally be into something like a TT Battletech app. One that tracked and rolled multiple aspects of the game. Basically a digital record sheet that tracked heat and movement with a dice roller for attacks. That would be pretty neat.
-
If my opponent needs to cheat in order to enjoy a casual game... ok? I’m not going to stress about an app. If it’s over a series of games I’ll catch onto the dishonesty.
-
I worry less about outright dishonesty than my fudgy fingers accidentally re-rolling or erasing the roll.
“Oh, sure—pass me your phone and I’ll write it down?”
“You bet. Here—“ (finger slip) (re-roll) “Uh...”
I’ve had similar problems with MTG life-tracker apps, both when I’ve used them and played against those who did. It was far too easy to accidentally finger-fudge one too many or one too few life off. That led to debates about what life totals were before the change, etc. The “convenience” of an app ended up costing more time than just the pen and paper I always use now.
But, anything is better than the shake-box. I encountered it for the first time at a local game maybe six months ago, and it was instant Excedrin time.
-
I looked at the BT dice roller app after it was linked here. Accidentally deleting roles with it isn't exactly easy. So you should be save there.
Nice app, btw
-
Agreed, but I’d still rather accept the physical limitations of a ‘real’ dice than accept the ‘invisible’ calculations of a computer.
I’m not going to pretend my position is particularly logical, but I’d be very unhappy to allow my opponent to use an app rather than actual dice. I prefer to see the dice tumble.
Challenger
Yep. this is the one if I go this route. Pretty slick and hard to screw up.
-
Something about rolling dice is very satisfying to me personally. If I am going to use a computer for dice rolls then I would likely just play a computer game. But that is just me.
-
Something about rolling dice is very satisfying to me personally. If I am going to use a computer for dice rolls then I would likely just play a computer game. But that is just me.
I totally get it. It's the main reason I was thinking of only using the app for cluster (amount of cluster/locations). So all the to hit rolls would still be die but when you hit with your LB20x you push a button on the app.
-
To be honest, I'd just rather not play if I was so worried my opponents were such likely cheaters that I couldn't trust them to use a dice roller app.
-
You know another thing about this is people don't trust computers. I am going to use the HBS BattleTech game as an example. People screamed the AI was cheating on head hits. A few people decided to track rolls turns out it isn't but when a computer rolls numbers people don't like they blame the computer. Which is kind of funny because almost nobody uses truly balance dice in gaming.
-
I wrote one of those for my calculator about 25 years ago, mostly to deal with massive cluster hits. Everyone I played with was okay with me using it, but one guy absolutely refused to use it himself. Of course, his average roll for 2d6 was somewhere around 10, so I think his issue was more about the fact that the program was too honest.
The very first time I used that program in a game, one of my previously undamaged units got hit with LB-X rounds from multiple Clan 'Mechs. I can't remember how many individual hits there were, but I think four or five were TAC chances. We didn't use a floating crit rule, so both engine and gyro ended up trashed.
I still used it, because that's how random (or pseudorandom) numbers work.
-
To be honest, I'd just rather not play if I was so worried my opponents were such likely cheaters that I couldn't trust them to use a dice roller app.
To echo General308, it’s not the player I would be worried about. I instinctively don’t trust computers and the discomfort I’d feel trying to trust the computer would take way from my enjoyment of the game.
I’m not sure why the app is so useful to be honest. We started rocking up to games with multicoloured dice, made rolling for cluster hits far faster.
Challenger
-
The app also tells you which location got hit and, even when you use multiple dice, as I do myself, it still requires multiple rolls, because no one really has as many dies as he would need to deal with multi LB 20 hits
-
if you're worried about someone fat fingering the app, why not have one person (the GM) make all the app rolls? Hold it up so all players can see the results (or put on a big screen somewhere).
-
I for one would have no problem with someone using an app, as long as all the people involved use the same app on the same device, giving everyone the same odds, no random number generator program is truly random (neither is any means of generating random numbers, including die, specially ones with rounded edges and corners)
-
I would be upset and insist that I be allowed to use my death box, as shown below. It is like an adult rattle.
Hehe... actually that's *my* death box...
But, anything is better than the shake-box. I encountered it for the first time at a local game maybe six months ago, and it was instant Excedrin time.
It still surprises me that the small amount of noise created by one of the boxes compared to the noiselevel in the typical gaming room at a game store bothers people, but we have a local player who is the same way. If I'm using my box, I have to shake it under the table when he's playing.
-
As long as everyone is sharing the tablet I see no real problem with it. Keeps it honest.
-
if you're worried about someone fat fingering the app, why not have one person (the GM) make all the app rolls? Hold it up so all players can see the results (or put on a big screen somewhere).
If i was to allow it, that's how i would handle it. One person does the rolling using the app for everyone..
-
The app also tells you which location got hit and, even when you use multiple dice, as I do myself, it still requires multiple rolls, because no one really has as many dies as he would need to deal with multi LB 20 hits
Ok, I can see the value in that, I think it steals half the fun of playing a board game, but each to their own :thumbsup:
Challenger
-
It still surprises me that the small amount of noise created by one of the boxes compared to the noiselevel in the typical gaming room at a game store bothers people, but we have a local player who is the same way. If I'm using my box, I have to shake it under the table when he's playing.
Oh, there was an aggression of shaking at play--this wasn't me being triggered by nails on a chalkboard, this was X-Wing players from across the busy, noisy game room looking up like, "...the heck...?"
-
Ok, I can see the value in that, I think it steals half the fun of playing a board game, but each to their own :thumbsup:
Challenger
Great way to speed things up and just adding an app to a game seems to get more people interested nowadays. ;)
-
It still surprises me that the small amount of noise created by one of the boxes compared to the noiselevel in the typical gaming room at a game store bothers people, but we have a local player who is the same way. If I'm using my box, I have to shake it under the table when he's playing.
Maybe line the compartments with some of that press on felt you can get at craft stores. That would dampen the sound.
-
Maybe line the compartments with some of that press on felt you can get at craft stores. That would dampen the sound.
That, and NOT using it like maracas in a heavy metal band.
-
It still surprises me that the small amount of noise created by one of the boxes compared to the noiselevel in the typical gaming room at a game store bothers people, but we have a local player who is the same way. If I'm using my box, I have to shake it under the table when he's playing.
Actually had a similar situation a couple of month go, a player at the next table politely ask us to stop using the dice box when it start triggering headache. Guess it's not the noise level as much as the type of noise it make that just triggers some people inner ear.
-
Actually had a similar situation a couple of month go, a player at the next table politely ask us to stop using the dice box when it start triggering headache. Guess it's not the noise level as much as the type of noise it make that just triggers some people inner ear.
If dice noise bothers someone maybe they have the wrong hobby?
-
If dice noise bothers someone maybe they have the wrong hobby?
Have you heard someone aggressively use one of those boxes with >12 pairs of dice in it? And I mean, aggressively use it, not a reasonable shake to generate random numbers?
I had to fight down the instinctual toddler-parent reaction to take it away and put it on top of the fridge and tell them we're going to play with a different toy now.
-
Have you heard someone aggressively use one of those boxes with >12 pairs of dice in it? And I mean, aggressively use it, not a reasonable shake to generate random numbers?
I had to fight down the instinctual toddler-parent reaction to take it away and put it on top of the fridge and tell them we're going to play with a different toy now.
Are you saying the box of doom is the BattleTech version of the vuvuzela?
-
Are you saying the box of doom is the BattleTech version of the vuvuzela?
Basically accurate.
-
Have you heard someone aggressively use one of those boxes with >12 pairs of dice in it? And I mean, aggressively use it, not a reasonable shake to generate random numbers?
I had to fight down the instinctual toddler-parent reaction to take it away and put it on top of the fridge and tell them we're going to play with a different toy now.
I award this comment one Internet Cookie.
-
Roll the BONES! We do it old school! :D
-
I've traditionally gone the small-dice-in-the-clear-plastic-compartment-box route for when I've had to do lots of rolling at once, but I wouldn't be entirely against someone wanting to use that app. At the very least we don't need to worry about dice rolling off the table.
...but then again, I've not until living in Japan bothered with getting a smart phone. Data prices are bat-turd crazy in the oligarchic mobile market of Ottawa.
-
I normally use both. My Steiner dice for init and individual rolls (PSR, single attacks, etc) and my phone app for cluster attacks.
-
Well, I see nothing wrong with using that dice roller. But it's just my opinion. Just wanted to share it here, guys, sorry for bumping the thread.
-
Oh, there was an aggression of shaking at play--this wasn't me being triggered by nails on a chalkboard, this was X-Wing players from across the busy, noisy game room looking up like, "...the heck...?"
not quite BT level of cluster hits, but my love of Yahtzee and shaking dice died sometime in my late teens. 7-12 me? loved that loud plastic on plastic on shaking. (now it causes eye twitches)
-
not quite BT level of cluster hits, but my love of Yahtzee and shaking dice died sometime in my late teens. 7-12 me? loved that loud plastic on plastic on shaking. (now it causes eye twitches)
Hardened leather is your friend for a dice cup. Plastic...hell no.
But leather would be an impossibility for a box of doom.
-
I saw this thread was bumped and wanted to share my 2 cents too. So, about the BT dice roller app - I think it's pretty cool. It's a great option for folks who prefer digital dice rolling, especially for online games. I don't see any issue with using it, as long as everyone playing is cool with it. And hey, if anyone's interested, I found this other dice roller website called flipsimu.com (https://flipsimu.com/dice-roller/) that's got some pretty interesting features. Just a thought.
-
You know another thing about this is people don't trust computers. I am going to use the HBS BattleTech game as an example. People screamed the AI was cheating on head hits. A few people decided to track rolls turns out it isn't but when a computer rolls numbers people don't like they blame the computer. Which is kind of funny because almost nobody uses truly balance dice in gaming.
The vanilla HBS game did cheat on hits, just in the players favor. Each missed short increased the odds of the next one connecting.
-
I don’t have particularly strong feelings on dice rollers. Like others have said, I don’t generally play with people who I suspect of cheating. It really accelerates large numbers of cluster munitions, SRMs, etc..
I also have experienced the racket of a vigorously shaken “box of death”, and was not a fan. I don’t doubt that it is possible to do with restraint, but I’m not sure I’ve encountered it.
-
The only problem I have with Dice Rollers is that your not seeing the roll and the results that are so better way to hid the results.
I just see this a lot with rollers for DnD.
It might speed up the game, and that always helps.
-
The only problem I have with Dice Rollers is that your not seeing the roll and the results that are so better way to hid the results.
I just see this a lot with rollers for DnD.
It might speed up the game, and that always helps.
Your playing with the wrong people if you need to constantly be on guard for cheating, a phone can be Sat on the table in view of other players.
-
Or, you know, regularly playing with the various folks who show up to the meetups the FLGS hosts. The opportunity to choose who you play with is often more of a luxury in wargaming than RPGs.
-
It's ok if it is publicly aviable app however it takes lot away from classic BT feeling same with flex sheets.
-
I've used a classic game as my die roller: Trouble's Pop-o-Matic bubble.
It's easier to travel, simple to operate and no chasing die around when dropped.
Just a Pop sound as the die are rolled in the dome.
I mean, it's weird at first and if you have multiples, you can paint / mark the base color for different " Box O'Doom ' effect...
TT
-
Casual play sure if both players agree.
Tournament, absolutely not! Too easy to cheat with the digital dice and if people can bring the mechs, they can bring dice and roll so everyone can see the result. Tournament dice should also only be pip dice, with nothing else on the die.
-
Casual play sure if both players agree.
Tournament, absolutely not! Too easy to cheat with the digital dice and if people can bring the mechs, they can bring dice and roll so everyone can see the result. Tournament dice should also only be pip dice, with nothing else on the die.
Well, I hope you allow any if the official CGL dice at keast.
-
Casual play sure if both players agree.
Tournament, absolutely not! Too easy to cheat with the digital dice and if people can bring the mechs, they can bring dice and roll so everyone can see the result. Tournament dice should also only be pip dice, with nothing else on the die.
Too true. Some dice have a special symbol for the '1', others have it for the '6'. Mixing them up is an invitation for arguments.