Author Topic: Wyvern Omni-Helicopter  (Read 2165 times)

Retry

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Wyvern Omni-Helicopter
« on: 14 May 2018, 22:43:01 »
The Wyvern is the first Omni-Helicopter ever designed.

Following the destruction of the FedCom Civil War, the Federated Suns required more machinery to replace their decimated military capacity. One of the regions that needed rebuilding was the Sun's VTOL fleet, and sent contracts for several new VTOL designs to supplement and ultimately replace current VTOL designs. Michaelson Heavy Industries, however, submitted only one.

The original prototype was called the MHI Standard Helicopter, which itself was developed from an old MHI helicopter prototype developed as a less maintenance-intensive alternative to classic cargo helicopters like the Cobra and Karnov, and in fact shares the 100 SFE with the Cobra.  The old MHI prototype cargo helicopter was modified to combine Omni-technology with an experimental three-ton chin turret, capable of carrying 10 of its 12 free tons. The vehicle of a typical VTOL construction with a main rotor/tail rotor arrangement, a good quantity of armor plating and a decent 100 SFE engine to propel the helicopter to decent speeds. The base cost of the MHI Standard Helicopter was projected to be around a million C-Bills before considering pod-mounted equipment.

While not particularly impressive in any single area, the Standard Helicopter prototype showed itself to be very reliable and the variants were projected to be able to fill just about every single role the Federated Suns would ever have. MHI factories were provided additional funding in 3067 by the Suns in order to expand their industrial facilities on Ruchbah.

As luck would have it, the MHI Standard Helicopter would never serve in the AFFS. The Word of Blake would launch an invasion of Ruchbah in 3069, quickly overwhelming the defenders and capturing the entire planet, including the industrial equipment and the prototype helicopter. The invading personnel tested the helicopter for itself and were impressed with its performance, naming this helicopter the Wyvern. The WoB attempted to produce Wyverns out of the factory by 3070 but were repeatedly sabotaged by the local resistance, resulting in few Wyverns available for the WoB military. Those that made it to the front were usually used by elite Manei Domini troops with variants designed to use pod-mounted C3I and advanced equipment or even captured clan weaponry. Many Manei Domini pilots died in these Wyverns, not as a result of combat but as a result of curious, random, unexplained system failures. Since no Wyverns have catastrophically failed in similar ways after the fall of the WoB, these failures are usually attributed to acts of the Ruchbah Saboteurs.

After the fall of the WoB and the formation of the Republic of the Sphere in 3081, the RotS military contracted the still-intact miltary complex on Ruchbah to bolster their own VTOL fleet, with some industries liscensing the design to built on Terra. The new RotS variants exchanged the WoB's C3i systems for a regular C3 system. The Wyvern was finally being produced en-masse by a major power, and saw considerable success until the loss of Ruchbah during the Dark Ages made it very difficult for the RotS to replace Wyvern casualties.

Ruchbah is under Capellan ownership by 3145. Extensive testing is underway on the Wyvern Omni-Helicopter and it's believed that the Capellans are likely to incorporate the Wyvern into their own VTOL fleet in some form.

Code: [Select]
MHI Wyvern Omni-Helicopter Base
Base Tech Level: Experimental (IS)
Level Era
Experimental 3070
Advanced 3070-3079
Standard 3080+
Tech Rating: E/X-F-F-D

Weight: 30 tons
BV: 267
Cost: 1,037,500 C-bills

Movement: 8/12 (VTOL)
Engine: 100

Internal: 18
Armor: 80
Internal Armor
Front 3 20
Right 3 15
Left    3 15
Rear 3 12
Rotor 3 2
Turret 3 16

Quirks:
Easy to Maintain

Pod Space:
12 tons (10 in chin turret)
11 crits

Variants:

Prime
ER PPC (Chin Turret)

A
2x ER ML (Chin Turret)
4x LRM-5 (Chin Turret) (2 tons ammo)

B
2x ER ML (Chin Turret)
4x SRM-4 (Chin Turret) (2 tons ammo)

C
UAC/5 (Chin Turret) (1 ton ammo)
4x Rocket Launcher/10 (front)

Fire Support
Thumper Artillery Cannon (Chin Turret) (2 tons ammo)


BA Transport
2x ER ML (Chin Turret)
8 tons pod troop space

Hybrid Transport
1x ER LL (Chin Turret)
1x Machine Gun (Chin Turret) (.5 tons ammo)
4 tons pod troop space

EW
2x Medium Pulse Laser (Chin Turret)
1x Small Pulse Laser (Chin Turret)
Beagle Active Probe
Guardian ECM Suite
4 tons pod troop space

Field Kitchen
3x Field Kitchen
1x Laser AMS (Chin Turret)
1.5 tons cargo space

Cargo Hauler
4x Lift Hoist (Front, Left, Right, Rear)

Command
Communication Equipment (10 tons)
Laser AMS (Chin Turret)
VTOL Jet Booster

Med-Evac
Paramedic Equipment (10 tons)
VTOL Jet Booster
Laser AMS (Chin Turret)




WoB Invictus
Large VSP Laser (Chin Turret)
C3i
VTOL Jet Booster

WoB Dominus
Plasma Rifle (Chin Turret) (2 tons ammo)
Machine Gun (Chin Turret) (.5 tons ammo)
C3i
VTOL Jet Booster

WoB Infernus
Snub-Nose PPC (Chin Turret)
6 tons pod troop space

WoB Comminus
PPC (Chin Turret)
2x MML-3 (Chin Turret) (2 tons ammo)




RotS Prime
Large X-Pulse Laser (Chin Turret)
C3 Slave

RotS A
Rotary AC/5 (Chin Turret) (2 tons ammo)

RotS B
Rotary AC/2 (Chin Turret) (1 ton ammo)
'Mech Mortar 1 (Chin Turret) (1 ton ammo)

RotS C
6x MML-3 (Chin Turret) (2 tons ammo)
C3 Slave

RotS D "Hydra"
10x Medium Chemical Laser (Chin Turret) (2 tons ammo)

RotS E
2x Medium X-Pulse Laser (Chin Turret)
1x Light Machine Gun (Chin Turret) (.5 tons ammo)
Targeting Computer
4 tons pod troop space

RotS F
1x Clan ERPPC (Chin Turret)
1x C3 Slave


Super Wyvern (Capellan Prototype)
The Super Wyvern is identical to the base Wyvern, but with clan-spec CASE integrated into the base frame and an Inner Sphere 160 XLE driving the vehicle to 10/15 instead of 8/12.
« Last Edit: 20 May 2018, 12:52:43 by Retry »

Sabelkatten

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Re: Wyvern Omni-Helicopter
« Reply #1 on: 15 May 2018, 02:26:59 »
I don't agree with Cannonshop that 8/12 is too slow for a VTOL, but I think it's too slow for a really useful omni-VTOL. You pretty much restrict it to fire support and transport, much of the omni potential is wasted IMHO.

On the other hand, flying McDonalds! :D

Retry

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Re: Wyvern Omni-Helicopter
« Reply #2 on: 15 May 2018, 08:26:13 »
I don't agree with Cannonshop that 8/12 is too slow for a VTOL, but I think it's too slow for a really useful omni-VTOL. You pretty much restrict it to fire support and transport, much of the omni potential is wasted IMHO.

On the other hand, flying McDonalds! :D
The Wyvern is fluffed as a mediocre helicopter originally designed to be mass produced quickly to replace and supplement the AFFS VTOL fleet and do anything from hauling cargo crates to people to gunslinging.  While it's not the slowest thing in the world it's not particularly swift, while it's decently armored it's no Garuda, while 12 tons of payload isn't shabby others can carry even more.  It's a decent mix to fill most roles adequately, if not stellarly.

More importantly, it's cheap, easy to maintain, and is built with standard equipment like standard Fusion engines and Standard Armor which are fairly common and relatively easy to come by around 3070 compared to fancier stuff like XL engines, F-L or stealth armor.

Its primary purpose is to give the Inner Sphere a helicopter Omni, since evidently not a single person in the entire Battletech Universe has realized that omni-fying a helicopter is an extremely good idea.

The Super Wyvern (capellan prototype) rectifies the speed issue by putting in an XL engine for 10/15 movement instead of 8/12 for nearly identical specs.  It's more effective on a per-unit basis, but it almost quadruples the base cost of a frame with the engine change alone.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Wyvern Omni-Helicopter
« Reply #3 on: 15 May 2018, 19:40:38 »
It is a general purpose VTOL, master of nothing
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Cannonshop

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Re: Wyvern Omni-Helicopter
« Reply #4 on: 16 May 2018, 22:27:17 »
It sacrifices payload, speed and protection for the sake of having "30 tons" on the box.

literally, the change in suspension factor is that severe a penalty, and it ups your operatoinal, as well as procurement costs significantly right there.

VTOL design does not follow Tank or 'Mech design.  max tonnage doesn't make it good, it makes it weak.  the cost formulations, on the other hand, do follow the others-the bigger it is, t he more it costs.

Clearly, the AFFS in Retry's version doesn't have a lot of sense, but they DO have a lot of money.
« Last Edit: 16 May 2018, 22:30:33 by Cannonshop »
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Retry

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Re: Wyvern Omni-Helicopter
« Reply #5 on: 17 May 2018, 03:31:08 »
It is a general purpose VTOL, master of nothing

Well, that just summed up my entire OP in one sentence.

It sacrifices payload, speed and protection for the sake of having "30 tons" on the box.

literally, the change in suspension factor is that severe a penalty, and it ups your operatoinal, as well as procurement costs significantly right there.

VTOL design does not follow Tank or 'Mech design.  max tonnage doesn't make it good, it makes it weak.  the cost formulations, on the other hand, do follow the others-the bigger it is, t he more it costs.

Clearly, the AFFS in Retry's version doesn't have a lot of sense, but they DO have a lot of money.

Speed, the Wyvern does to some extent (The Super Wyvern does not at 10/15 but pays dearly with C-Bills).  Payload & Protection, no.  Compared to an 8/12 25 tonner, an 8/12 30 tonner will have 2 extra free tons to work with using fusion engines.  In the case of the Super Wyvern, a 10/15 30 tonner adds 2.5 tons compared to a 10/15 25 tonner with an XL engine.  That's just downright false.

Procurement costs are larger than a 21 tonner or a 25 tonner, obviously, but the Wyvern was intended to fulfill as many roles as possible, including if not especially non-combat roles.  No matter how hard you try, a 20 tonner, 21 tonner, or 25 tonner will never be as capable of fulfilling the bulk cargo role (Cargo Hauler, 4x Lift Hoists in this case) as the Wyvern (in fact it's more or less designed backwards from that variant).  The capacity is also more useful for carrying around people, solid cargo in an internal bay, or liquid water in a bay as "ammunition" for a firefighting variant.  The 25 tonner might be able to get an Omni-variant with 3 Field Kitchens (you'll need 9 tons free for that, might be able to pull that off with reasonable armor with a 9/14 fusion engine at most, with a notable loss in armor).  The 21 tonner simply can't.  The only noncombat area the 21 and 25 tonners may have an advantage in is med-evac where speedy evacuation of your injured to the nearest MASH unit may be the difference between life and death, but the Wyvern could theoretically carry up to 48 people in one trip to the MASH unit. (or 46 with a VTOL jet booster to reduce transit time, or 40 if including a Laser AMS to protect from MANPADs)

Procurement costs, at least, only go up by ~10-20% from my testing if you use a 25 tonner with a similar-ish (and thus faster) engine as a basis, not huge but not insignificant, but you lose a lot of payload and the raw cargo carrying ability of the Cargo Hauler variant.

Upkeep costs are minimal.  The design uses a fusion engine, so it uses no fuel to speak of.  Being an omnivehicle, it has repair benefits over standard vehicles in addition to being able to change loadouts quickly, including utilizing captured Clan-spec equipment with ease.  And if using quirks, it has the Easy-to-Maintain quirk to correspond with its fluff.  If you use these to replace the bulk of your VTOL fleet (original AFFS plan), you no longer have to replace the parts from a half dozen helicopter designs, just one, which can only help your logistical situation on the strategic scale.

As far as actual combat-variant Omnis go, there's several very nifty variants that work on the Wyvern that doesn't work on 25 or 21 ton platforms.  The Wyvern Prime, for instance, needs every single one of its 12 free tons to mount that turreted ER PPC, which has nearly the range of the Warrior's AC/2 but with far more stopping power, just slightly slower for far better firepower and a 360* arc.  The RotS Hydra downright cannot be copied by a 25 or 21 tonner whatsoever due to space concerns  The Dark Age-ish era RotS E with a cERPPC & C3 Slave is also extremely useful and can't really be done on a 25 tonner without some serious sacrifices.

Not sure where you're going with the not following tank or 'mech design, as that's obvious, and bigger isn't better even for a Battlemech.

While the AFFS certainly does have a lot of money (The Suns are a major IS power after all), there's nothing nonsensical about the Wyvern.  Low logistical footprint, affordable and flexible both in and outside of combat.  You make it sound like it's a Trireme or an Aeron with an XXLE.

And yes, I did go over a 25 ton and a 21 ton design before settling on this one for the Wyvern.  The others were faster (11/17 on the 21 tonner, 10/15 on the 25 tonner) and cheaper but simply couldn't fill as many roles as the Wyvern and didn't showcase an Omnicopter's potential as well, especially with respect to cargo-hauling.
« Last Edit: 17 May 2018, 03:32:44 by Retry »

Cannonshop

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Re: Wyvern Omni-Helicopter
« Reply #6 on: 17 May 2018, 09:15:56 »
Well, that just summed up my entire OP in one sentence.

Speed, the Wyvern does to some extent (The Super Wyvern does not at 10/15 but pays dearly with C-Bills).  Payload & Protection, no.  Compared to an 8/12 25 tonner, an 8/12 30 tonner will have 2 extra free tons to work with using fusion engines.  In the case of the Super Wyvern, a 10/15 30 tonner adds 2.5 tons compared to a 10/15 25 tonner with an XL engine.  That's just downright false.

Procurement costs are larger than a 21 tonner or a 25 tonner, obviously, but the Wyvern was intended to fulfill as many roles as possible, including if not especially non-combat roles.  No matter how hard you try, a 20 tonner, 21 tonner, or 25 tonner will never be as capable of fulfilling the bulk cargo role (Cargo Hauler, 4x Lift Hoists in this case) as the Wyvern (in fact it's more or less designed backwards from that variant).  The capacity is also more useful for carrying around people, solid cargo in an internal bay, or liquid water in a bay as "ammunition" for a firefighting variant.  The 25 tonner might be able to get an Omni-variant with 3 Field Kitchens (you'll need 9 tons free for that, might be able to pull that off with reasonable armor with a 9/14 fusion engine at most, with a notable loss in armor).  The 21 tonner simply can't.  The only noncombat area the 21 and 25 tonners may have an advantage in is med-evac where speedy evacuation of your injured to the nearest MASH unit may be the difference between life and death, but the Wyvern could theoretically carry up to 48 people in one trip to the MASH unit. (or 46 with a VTOL jet booster to reduce transit time, or 40 if including a Laser AMS to protect from MANPADs)

Procurement costs, at least, only go up by ~10-20% from my testing if you use a 25 tonner with a similar-ish (and thus faster) engine as a basis, not huge but not insignificant, but you lose a lot of payload and the raw cargo carrying ability of the Cargo Hauler variant.

Upkeep costs are minimal.  The design uses a fusion engine, so it uses no fuel to speak of.  Being an omnivehicle, it has repair benefits over standard vehicles in addition to being able to change loadouts quickly, including utilizing captured Clan-spec equipment with ease.  And if using quirks, it has the Easy-to-Maintain quirk to correspond with its fluff.  If you use these to replace the bulk of your VTOL fleet (original AFFS plan), you no longer have to replace the parts from a half dozen helicopter designs, just one, which can only help your logistical situation on the strategic scale.

As far as actual combat-variant Omnis go, there's several very nifty variants that work on the Wyvern that doesn't work on 25 or 21 ton platforms.  The Wyvern Prime, for instance, needs every single one of its 12 free tons to mount that turreted ER PPC, which has nearly the range of the Warrior's AC/2 but with far more stopping power, just slightly slower for far better firepower and a 360* arc.  The RotS Hydra downright cannot be copied by a 25 or 21 tonner whatsoever due to space concerns  The Dark Age-ish era RotS E with a cERPPC & C3 Slave is also extremely useful and can't really be done on a 25 tonner without some serious sacrifices.

Not sure where you're going with the not following tank or 'mech design, as that's obvious, and bigger isn't better even for a Battlemech.

While the AFFS certainly does have a lot of money (The Suns are a major IS power after all), there's nothing nonsensical about the Wyvern.  Low logistical footprint, affordable and flexible both in and outside of combat.  You make it sound like it's a Trireme or an Aeron with an XXLE.

And yes, I did go over a 25 ton and a 21 ton design before settling on this one for the Wyvern.  The others were faster (11/17 on the 21 tonner, 10/15 on the 25 tonner) and cheaper but simply couldn't fill as many roles as the Wyvern and didn't showcase an Omnicopter's potential as well, especially with respect to cargo-hauling.

ANY "Omni" vehicle has a HUGE logistical footprint, because  you are stuck carrying spares for every 'book' configuration every where you deploy it, and that is in addition to increasing your training costs and the normal repairs, spares, and ammo you'd be carrying for a single unit type.

when you have to ship everything each ton of cargo space is valuable.  the less variation per platform, the more use per ton of cargo you get.  Secondly, is repair costs, which again are huge, you're powering this with a fusion engine, and it's a vee that is useless outside of an atmosphere, so you're paying for a capability that isn't served, and it's high-observable, so of limited use in guerilla actions where its speed and variability aren't particularly useful either (iow it's not nearly fast enough to work as a deep -behind-the-lines raider, and it requires expensive omni-pods to make use of it's 'special trick' of being an omni-vehicle, which ties it down to a large logistics base to keep those spares.)

It's also got a larger logistics footprint in terms of the quantity and quality of support personnel to keep it fit to make use of all those variations, as well as to maintain all that variant gear, that represents hundreds to thousands of man-hours to keep each one flying, and your pilots have to learn the operational parameters of all those different weapons and weapons configurations.

so no, you're not picking up logistical savings, you're also not picking up savings in training or drill hours that could be spent making the pilots better and the ground crew more effective.

Omni-Tech is optimum mainly for two roles: keeping a unit in repair by shortening component replacement times, and 'flower war' Clan duelling, where pilots can and will customize their ride  based on individual, as opposed to mass-combat, necessity.

The third reason-the VEHICLE reason to do it, is to reduce your procurement to a single optimized chassis to cover multiple specific roles.  This isn't fast enough to replace a Karnov as a slick, and it costs more, it's not fast enough to replace a Pinto as a squad/Hind replacement ride either, the ERPPC version basically is a 20 ton weapon system when you add in the weight of the heat sinkage and power amplifier, but it's not a good attack platform because (again) it's too big and too slow, and it costs too much for the roles VTOL units actually do better than safer, and thus more reliable, ground bound units do.

further, the AFFS has a pretty good pair of 'slicks/ armed slicks" already: the Cavalry infantry variant, and the H-10 infantry variant of the H-8, both of which can deploy and then support an effective infantry force, while maintaining sufficient movement to avoid all but the most dedicated anti-air defenses, and they cost less, which reduces the risks of utilizing them, and also they both show significantly lower costs in training and maintenance, meaning that you can field more, with better air and ground crew, with better per-tonnage logistics in more situations, at lower per-unit cost, and, I would kindly suggest, lower potential cost in losses since neither of those, has to flank and risk sideslip nearly as often to get to a firing position, or to deliver the infantry (depending on variant).

"big" does not equal "Good", and just because it's got a fusion engine, does NOT mean it's cheap to run.

to give you a further example, throw up a 'one chassis challenge' and see how people answer it.  with Vehicles, it's very RARE that they pick "Omni" unless cost is no  object.  onward to the Canon, there are several 'single unit types' that canonically began as Omni-mech/omni-vehicle programs, but were reduced to a single optimized unit when the deployment costs were calculated by the sponsoring governments.

there's a lesson from that.
« Last Edit: 17 May 2018, 09:20:06 by Cannonshop »
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Retry

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Re: Wyvern Omni-Helicopter
« Reply #7 on: 17 May 2018, 15:47:36 »
ANY "Omni" vehicle has a HUGE logistical footprint, because  you are stuck carrying spares for every 'book' configuration every where you deploy it, and that is in addition to increasing your training costs and the normal repairs, spares, and ammo you'd be carrying for a single unit type.
Nope.  You only have to carry spares for the configurations you want.

If your VTOL is assigned to an Air Cavalry Company, that particular Company may need only 1 or 2 combat configurations (BA transport or a Hybrid Transport, depending on if you're transporting Jump Infantry, other types of infantry, Medium-or-smaller BA, or Heavy-and-larger BA, and maybe a "gunship" or fire support configuration), with some paramedic equipment as optional for med-evacs to the Dropship.  Since this VTOL replaces the separate Gunship VTOL, Transport VTOL, and Medevac VTOL that you would otherwise have used, you only need a single supply of structural parts for a single model (control systems, rotors, electronic components, etc.) and thus a lower logistical footprint.

A recon company would only need 1 configuration and utility roles probably would not be necessary.

I cannot find a reference to increasing training costs for omnis, either 'Mechs or Vehicles.  A 30 ton VTOL has a pilot and co-pilot/gunner.  The craft handles the same regardless of configuration and presumably it's not that difficult or time extensive to train for different weapons.  I'll have to ask for a source on this since I find nothing about higher training costs on either Strat Ops or I-Ops.

Increasing repair costs is just wrong as far as Strat Ops goes:  In which case, the only actual significant cost is time, and Omni-pod technology consistently lowers time for weapon swaps and makes repair checks easier.

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when you have to ship everything
You don't.

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Secondly, is repair costs, which again are huge, you're powering this with a fusion engine,
An engine that only takes damage (and thus needs repaired) upon a critical hit, which being a VTOL will usually crash and likely become salvageable.  Keeping fusion vees running would be difficult at the height of the Succession Wars but not in 3070.  At most an ICE is slightly easier to repair at tech rating C instead of D.

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and it's a vee that is useless outside of an atmosphere
...In other words, it's a vehicle.  Very perceptive.
There's very few vehicles that can actually operate outside of an atmosphere since they need heavy environmental sealing, and then they're still not useful since they're destroyed by a single hull breach to any location.
Most targets of interest are in an atmosphere.  For the rest, there's aeros, battlearmor and battlemechs.

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so no, you're not picking up logistical savings, you're also not picking up savings in training or drill hours that could be spent making the pilots better and the ground crew more effective.
Your conclusion is speculation that's neither backed by fluff nor in-game rules.  Again, there's no rule that a VTOL pilot has to train to use every single weapons configuration known to man just because it exists, and being in a chin turret for the gunner instead of fixed to the front arc should actually make it easier to wield.

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Omni-Tech is optimum mainly for two roles

Not mentioned is its ability to change battlefield roles virtually on the fly, which is one of the biggest advantage of a modular system to begin with.

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The third reason-the VEHICLE reason to do it, is to reduce your procurement to a single optimized chassis to cover multiple specific roles.
Which is what it does, while it's usually not as good at any one role it does them all adequately, and adequately would be enough to attempt to replace the majority of the post-civil war AFFS's VTOL fleet.

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This isn't fast enough to replace a Karnov as a slick, and it costs more
Cheaper up-front.  A fusion engine consumes insignificant fuel, an ICE engine has a limited range and consumes fuel, which needs a logistical network to fuel.  If you're a great house that can maintain fusion engines and omni-technology, the Wyvern is a better investment and even cheaper in the long term.  Pure cargo hauling variants of the Wyvern can carry twice the payload but don't quite cost twice as much.  It's more of a Cobra replacement as it even uses the same engine.

The 'proper' replacement to a Karnov is just a 25 ton or even a 21 ton knockoff which would make it cheaper while increasing payload.

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It's not fast enough to replace a Pinto as a squad/Hind replacement ride either
The Wyvern isn't as fast but it's adequate as a Hind replacement, as the chin turret lets it do things the Pinto can't.  The Wyvern is also cheaper than the Pinto and carries more infantry and weaponry.  The Super Wyvern loses the cost advantage but is as fast as the Pinto, outclassing it in most ways.

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it's not a good attack platform because (again) it's too big and too slow
Your theory is good and all, but they performed just fine with the OpFor in the short Jihad-era campaign I did.

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further, the AFFS has a pretty good pair of 'slicks/ armed slicks" already: the Cavalry infantry variant, and the H-10 infantry variant of the H-8, both of which can deploy and then support an effective infantry force, while maintaining sufficient movement to avoid all but the most dedicated anti-air defenses, and they cost less, which reduces the risks of utilizing them, and also they both show significantly lower costs in training and maintenance, meaning that you can field more, with better air and ground crew, with better per-tonnage logistics in more situations, at lower per-unit cost, and, I would kindly suggest, lower potential cost in losses since neither of those, has to flank and risk sideslip nearly as often to get to a firing position, or to deliver the infantry (depending on variant).

The Cavalry is good, limited by the lack of a chin turret but still pretty good.  The 25 ton prototype I talked about earlier resembles a fusion Cavalry with a half-ton chin turret.  The 3.5 ton bay is pretty odd since it can't carry a full point of IS Standard BA, or a platoon of Jump Infantry for that matter, so that hurts it quite a bit.

The Warrior, not so great, well it's a good APC but you can't support the infantry.  It has a 5 ton bay which is enough to carry a full IS point or Jump Infantry with an extra ton so it looks more like it's optimized to carry a Clan Point.  Going in close to aggressively spray hostile infantry with MG fire is not a good idea sine infantry at worst match the range of its MGs and many infantry platoons outrange them handily, and a successful hit from infantry platoons tend to do numbers on VTOLs.

The claim of lower maintenance and training costs are, again, baseless speculation.  The armor type of both the H-10 and Cavalry (Infantry) are more advanced armor types Ferro-Fibrous, which are tech rating D IIRC compared to standard's rating C, which is a slight penalty to maintenance.  Both lack the Wyvern's Easy-to-Maintain quirk.

Cannonshop

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Re: Wyvern Omni-Helicopter
« Reply #8 on: 17 May 2018, 22:43:01 »
Nope.  You only have to carry spares for the configurations you want.

If your VTOL is assigned to an Air Cavalry Company, that particular Company may need only 1 or 2 combat configurations (BA transport or a Hybrid Transport, depending on if you're transporting Jump Infantry, other types of infantry, Medium-or-smaller BA, or Heavy-and-larger BA, and maybe a "gunship" or fire support configuration), with some paramedic equipment as optional for med-evacs to the Dropship.  Since this VTOL replaces the separate Gunship VTOL, Transport VTOL, and Medevac VTOL that you would otherwise have used, you only need a single supply of structural parts for a single model (control systems, rotors, electronic components, etc.) and thus a lower logistical footprint.

A recon company would only need 1 configuration and utility roles probably would not be necessary.

I cannot find a reference to increasing training costs for omnis, either 'Mechs or Vehicles.  A 30 ton VTOL has a pilot and co-pilot/gunner.  The craft handles the same regardless of configuration and presumably it's not that difficult or time extensive to train for different weapons.  I'll have to ask for a source on this since I find nothing about higher training costs on either Strat Ops or I-Ops.

Increasing repair costs is just wrong as far as Strat Ops goes:  In which case, the only actual significant cost is time, and Omni-pod technology consistently lowers time for weapon swaps and makes repair checks easier.
You don't.
An engine that only takes damage (and thus needs repaired) upon a critical hit, which being a VTOL will usually crash and likely become salvageable.  Keeping fusion vees running would be difficult at the height of the Succession Wars but not in 3070.  At most an ICE is slightly easier to repair at tech rating C instead of D.
...In other words, it's a vehicle.  Very perceptive.
There's very few vehicles that can actually operate outside of an atmosphere since they need heavy environmental sealing, and then they're still not useful since they're destroyed by a single hull breach to any location.
Most targets of interest are in an atmosphere.  For the rest, there's aeros, battlearmor and battlemechs.
Your conclusion is speculation that's neither backed by fluff nor in-game rules.  Again, there's no rule that a VTOL pilot has to train to use every single weapons configuration known to man just because it exists, and being in a chin turret for the gunner instead of fixed to the front arc should actually make it easier to wield.

Not mentioned is its ability to change battlefield roles virtually on the fly, which is one of the biggest advantage of a modular system to begin with.
Which is what it does, while it's usually not as good at any one role it does them all adequately, and adequately would be enough to attempt to replace the majority of the post-civil war AFFS's VTOL fleet.
Cheaper up-front.  A fusion engine consumes insignificant fuel, an ICE engine has a limited range and consumes fuel, which needs a logistical network to fuel.  If you're a great house that can maintain fusion engines and omni-technology, the Wyvern is a better investment and even cheaper in the long term.  Pure cargo hauling variants of the Wyvern can carry twice the payload but don't quite cost twice as much.  It's more of a Cobra replacement as it even uses the same engine.

The 'proper' replacement to a Karnov is just a 25 ton or even a 21 ton knockoff which would make it cheaper while increasing payload.
The Wyvern isn't as fast but it's adequate as a Hind replacement, as the chin turret lets it do things the Pinto can't.  The Wyvern is also cheaper than the Pinto and carries more infantry and weaponry.  The Super Wyvern loses the cost advantage but is as fast as the Pinto, outclassing it in most ways.
Your theory is good and all, but they performed just fine with the OpFor in the short Jihad-era campaign I did.

The Cavalry is good, limited by the lack of a chin turret but still pretty good.  The 25 ton prototype I talked about earlier resembles a fusion Cavalry with a half-ton chin turret.  The 3.5 ton bay is pretty odd since it can't carry a full point of IS Standard BA, or a platoon of Jump Infantry for that matter, so that hurts it quite a bit.

The Warrior, not so great, well it's a good APC but you can't support the infantry.  It has a 5 ton bay which is enough to carry a full IS point or Jump Infantry with an extra ton so it looks more like it's optimized to carry a Clan Point.  Going in close to aggressively spray hostile infantry with MG fire is not a good idea sine infantry at worst match the range of its MGs and many infantry platoons outrange them handily, and a successful hit from infantry platoons tend to do numbers on VTOLs.

The claim of lower maintenance and training costs are, again, baseless speculation.  The armor type of both the H-10 and Cavalry (Infantry) are more advanced armor types Ferro-Fibrous, which are tech rating D IIRC compared to standard's rating C, which is a slight penalty to maintenance.  Both lack the Wyvern's Easy-to-Maintain quirk.

Let's get something perfectly clear here: Fuel is a negligible cost, it's not a scarcity item, it's  not even a particularly complex item, this isn't the 1970's.  anywhere you've got enough infrastructure to HAVE a garrison, is going to have plentiful fuel.  (hence the popularity of ICE vehicles).

Second "Easy to  maintain quirk" is relative to other units of equal tech.  a fusion engine that's 'easy to maintain' is still going to be more expensive to upkeep than a fuel cell or ICE engine of the same rating.  In this case, "easy to maintain" is relative to another Omni-VTOL with a Chin Turret.

Third, "Changing roles on the fly" requires the pods-which are a logistical cost-when not in use, you have to have them on hand, and while they're not in use, they still require maintenance and upkeep, still require warehouse space, still require shipping space.   Further, it requires being able to move a repair site rapidly so that your 'change' can happen quickly enough to justify the expense, which requires more specialized assets to move your unused pods around the battlefield or close to it, which also requires guarding forces for the technical crew, ordnance, equipment, convoy guards, convoy vehicles...and this is above-and-beyond standard ammo and fuel convoys too, since the cargo isn't 'immediate use'.  Plus administrative costs tracking all those pods and getting the right ones to the right positions.

fourth, since you can 'change roles' by changing equipment, you still have to either send your techs through constant refresher training to keep up, or have a larger ground crew organization to keep those pods in shape to be used.  additionally, your pilots have to go through more varied, less focused, training to be able to USE those additional features.  These all drive your costs upward as you lose the ability to focus training-your crews, if they're the same size, aren't going to be as well trained and efficient, and damage/losses in training roles are going to be higher.  Alternately, to have the same efficiency in operation will require pilots to have hundreds (if not more) additional hours requalifying with each configuration you are using, and a signifcant additional manpower cost to have enough repair trained personnel to upkeep the additional pods.

not including additional base-guards, larger perimeters, (to contain the additional materials), additional structures (to contain the added items), with different individual needs (because a cargo box differs remarkably from a PPC, which differs from missile ammunition which differs from electronics).

all of that, in turn, requires shipping tonnage to move.

but there's more!! because procurement costs, also, go through the roof.  Omni-anything costs more on the production end.  (Hence the abandonment of Omnimech and omnivehicle efforts by 3067 and conversion of so many of those projects to fixed configuration versions).  You pay more at the factory door, and then you pay more for what you're shipping to the garrison, and then you pay more to keep it in garrison, or you pay astronomically more shipping between garrison locations.


Your administrative, materiel and protection costs go up for the same role significantly the more configurations you're willing to deploy per chassis, and you've basically sacrificed core abilities in comparison with older, more effective designs for a chassis that doesn't do anything particularly well, besides renumerate the contractors and strain your personnel and logistical budget.
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Retry

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Re: Wyvern Omni-Helicopter
« Reply #9 on: 20 May 2018, 19:49:17 »
Let's get something perfectly clear here: Fuel is a negligible cost, it's not a scarcity item, it's  not even a particularly complex item, this isn't the 1970's.  anywhere you've got enough infrastructure to HAVE a garrison, is going to have plentiful fuel.  (hence the popularity of ICE vehicles).

Second "Easy to  maintain quirk" is relative to other units of equal tech.  a fusion engine that's 'easy to maintain' is still going to be more expensive to upkeep than a fuel cell or ICE engine of the same rating.  In this case, "easy to maintain" is relative to another Omni-VTOL with a Chin Turret.

Third, "Changing roles on the fly" requires the pods-which are a logistical cost-when not in use, you have to have them on hand, and while they're not in use, they still require maintenance and upkeep, still require warehouse space, still require shipping space.   Further, it requires being able to move a repair site rapidly so that your 'change' can happen quickly enough to justify the expense, which requires more specialized assets to move your unused pods around the battlefield or close to it, which also requires guarding forces for the technical crew, ordnance, equipment, convoy guards, convoy vehicles...and this is above-and-beyond standard ammo and fuel convoys too, since the cargo isn't 'immediate use'.  Plus administrative costs tracking all those pods and getting the right ones to the right positions.

fourth, since you can 'change roles' by changing equipment, you still have to either send your techs through constant refresher training to keep up, or have a larger ground crew organization to keep those pods in shape to be used.  additionally, your pilots have to go through more varied, less focused, training to be able to USE those additional features.  These all drive your costs upward as you lose the ability to focus training-your crews, if they're the same size, aren't going to be as well trained and efficient, and damage/losses in training roles are going to be higher.  Alternately, to have the same efficiency in operation will require pilots to have hundreds (if not more) additional hours requalifying with each configuration you are using, and a signifcant additional manpower cost to have enough repair trained personnel to upkeep the additional pods.

not including additional base-guards, larger perimeters, (to contain the additional materials), additional structures (to contain the added items), with different individual needs (because a cargo box differs remarkably from a PPC, which differs from missile ammunition which differs from electronics).

all of that, in turn, requires shipping tonnage to move.

but there's more!! because procurement costs, also, go through the roof.  Omni-anything costs more on the production end.  (Hence the abandonment of Omnimech and omnivehicle efforts by 3067 and conversion of so many of those projects to fixed configuration versions).  You pay more at the factory door, and then you pay more for what you're shipping to the garrison, and then you pay more to keep it in garrison, or you pay astronomically more shipping between garrison locations.


Your administrative, materiel and protection costs go up for the same role significantly the more configurations you're willing to deploy per chassis, and you've basically sacrificed core abilities in comparison with older, more effective designs for a chassis that doesn't do anything particularly well, besides renumerate the contractors and strain your personnel and logistical budget.

1.Fuel costs are in no way negligible.  According to the Strat Ops fuel table (pg.179) the typical cost for a ton of Petrochemical is 1,000 C-Bills (1.2k for natural gas, 15k for Hydrogen, and 1.5k for alcohol fuels).  By Techmanual errata, a fuel consuming engine (ICE, Fuel Cell) is assumed to have 10% of its engine mass as fuel, and by the support vehicle rules an ICE has 100km range per every 1% of the engine's weight as fuel, giving 1,000 km ranges for ICE vehicles.

A Karnov with its 15 ton ICE engine would have 1.5 tons fuel for a 1,000 km range (A bit better than a Eurocopter Tiger).  A full tank of gas for the Karnov will then cost 1,500 C-Bills, more than a ton of regular AC/2 or Machine gun ammo costs, and being a standard cargo helicopter in the Battletech Universe where nothing ever seems to become obsolete it's going to be operational for decades if not centuries, operating again and again racking up thousands of flight hours.  Not only will that fuel cost add up, a fusion alternative like the Cobra VTOL (or the Wyvern) can easily become the cheaper option in the long run.

That's just for civillian or garrison duties.  In long-term offensive operations, the accompanying Dropship, Jumpship, or Warship will need to carry spare fuel in their limited cargo space, which could otherwise be used to store extra weapons, ammunition, or spare equipment, with the exception of short raids.

2.Fusion engines and Fuel Cells on Combat Vehicles are both Tech Rating D, so their levels of complexity are equivalent as far as Strat Ops's repair rules are concerned.  Upkeep would then be similar, except the Fusion doesn't need any significant fuel to speak of while the Fuel cell does, so it's inferior with respect to upkeep.  A SFE attached to a unit with the Easy-to-maintain is equivalent to an ICE engine (rating C for combat vehicles) as far as maintenance checks are concerned.  It is relative to units of equal tech but a Fuel Cell engine is comparable to a Fusion engine as far as BT is concerned, so claiming its upkeep is lower is just wrong.

3.There is not a single universe where standardization results in a logistical penalty.

In terms of VTOLs alone, the Fed Suns have available to them, in various eras, are variants of the Ferret, Cavalry, Martens, Strixs, Hawk Moths & Hawk Moth IIs, Mantis, Nightshades, Peregrines, Warriors, Yashas, Yellow Jackets, Karnovs, and Cobras.

Many of these would be operational in numerous AFFS units throughout their territories at the same time.  Most of their engines are incompatible, their armor types often differ, their Comms system & Targeting systems are usually different, rotor arrangements differ, and even between different models of the same nominal chassis may be almost entirely different (The H-7 Warrior vs H-8, for instance, effectively has a different chassis (21 tons vs 20 tons, 3 IS vs 2 IS), different armor type, different engine type and engine rating).  So if you're part of high command in charge of procurement, your dozen or so Helicopter models and their variants has you keeping track of a half dozen or so T&T & Comms systems, rotor systems, potentially a half dozen different armor types, and easily a dozen or so different engines across your VTOL fleet alone.

Replacing many of the heavier VTOLs with a "standardized" helicopter cuts down the number of frames, engines, rotors, and such substantially.  Replacing your standards with a few (2 or 3) Omni-VTOL designs of various weight classes to replace all but perhaps the most specialist designs would cut the frames, engines, rotors you have to keep track of for your VTOL fleet.  They generally won't do any particular job quite as good as the dedicated specialist but if it's good enough then it's hard to argue against the logistical benefits of condensing your 20 different VTOL frames down to 2 or 3.

In addition to being common sense, such logistical advantages of Omnis are also hashed out in fluff as that was among the chief advantage of the Clans were stated to have.  Standard battlemechs and vehicles also need to have replacement weapons and parts on hand because even in the future nothing works 100% of the time, so infastructure exists for such equipment, the only difference being these new ones are in pods.

Literally the only situation where an omni-VTOL would cause higher logistical strain is if you replaced only 1 non-omni VTOL model that does *all* the jobs and gruntwork with an omni-VTOL with several variants.  However, such a non-omni VTOL capable of doing every single job required by any house's military doctrine does not exist, so realistically there's going to be (and is) several, if not several dozen, models and variant floating around for the quartermasters to manage across your armed services unless you either simplify your doctrine somehow such that you need a mere handful of different standard VTOL models or replace them with an Omni to continue using your current doctrine.

4.No such penalty actually exists for techs or vehicle crews having to swap to a new vehicle or variant, omni or otherwise.  There is no penalty for a pilot that moves from a standard 3025 Battlemech to a field refit model.  There is no penalty for training an omni vehicle pilot compared to a standard vehicle.  There is no such penalty for the astech crews that have to operate on the things either: In fact, the maintenance effects are exclusively positive by reducing rearming/replacement times.  It's a weapon system.  It's not like a LAM where the pilot has to figure out both how to fly in Aero form, glide around in AirMech form, and walk around in Battlemech form, it's just a weapon system, and quite frankly if your pilot cannot figure out how to fire a laser versus an autocannon or a gauss rifle, the pilot should have washed out in Basic.

Specialized training would only be really necessary in specialized roles like reconnaisance and special operations roles.  The various "front-line" VTOL configurations would be operable by any regular VTOL pilot.