Question About Kuritans and Swordfighting

[Kidd]

@massey - soon we'll (d)evolve into inserting pop-culture references every other line in the sourcebooks and crushing every dramatic scene with *record scratch* non-sequitur one-liner joke or pratfall. Then we'll have reached peak 2010s.

Yeah you're right. Navel-gazing only takes us so far. Time to break out the battle bots and rack up some kills.

[Mecha-Anchovy]

Heck, how many fanboys of CONTEMPORARY cultures TODAY get it wrong?  Never mind fanboys of cultures that were extant a thousand years ago!

I would emphasise more that every real culture contains an immense amount of diversity, and competing, even contradictory ideas and practices. If there's such a thing as a Platonic essence of Japaneseness, it's not obvious what that thing is or how you'd identify it, much less how you'd live by it.

Shiro Kurita was a fanboy for particular elements of Japanese culture, as they evolved and were interpreted across millennia. Shiro himself was ethnically Japanese, and while, sure, his bushido is different to previous ideas, the bushido practiced by a Japanese infantry officer in WWII was different to bushido as defined and expounded by Inazo Nitobe, which in turn was different to bushido as romanticised by samurai class bureaucrats in the 18th century, which itself is different to the bushido practiced by warriors and lords in the late Sengoku Jidai, which is different to... and so on and so on forever.

Shiro was inspired by classical Japanese culture and by samurai ideals as he understood them. Did he creatively reinterpret them, producing his own unique spin on those ideas and traditions? Of course he did. And his reinterpretation wasn't the product of a sort of pure Yamato spirit, free and undefiled from worldly concerns: it was tempered at every step by pragmatism, by the fact that Shiro was using it to forge an interstellar empire aiming at the conquest of all of known space.

To me, that doesn't make Shiro a joke, and it doesn't mean he 'got it wrong'. What bushido or the samurai have meant to the Japanese has changed across a thousand years of real history. To charitably interpret BattleTech's fictional history... it's also changed over a thousand years of imagined future.

And yes, BattleTech's particular idea of space bushido is heavily influenced by 80s tropes and samurai and ninja being trendy and so on. BattleTech is not culturally neutral itself, and includes a bunch of things just because earlier designers liked them. (e.g. the Scots and the Irish are absolutely everywhere; someone at FASA really liked Celtic culture. A lot of BTech comes off to me as not only Celtophilic but also Anglophilic.) I do think the design goal with the Combine was not to plot out the most plausible possible future for Japanese cultural tropes and symbols. Rather, it was that giant mecha samurai are awesome.

Even so... I mean, giant mecha samurai are awesome. And the explanation for how they came to exist doesn't strike me as egregiously dumb. Maybe a little dumb, but come on, we're playing a game about giant robots punching each other in the face. This is well within what my suspension of disbelief covers.

[Giovanni Blasini]

In that way, Shiro really wasn't that different from Nicholas Kerensky, was he?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

In that way, Shiro really wasn't that different from Nicholas Kerensky, was he?

I think he was less bonkers, but no.

[massey]

Except BT is the future as envisioned in the 1980s. OUR future.

Shiro Kurita was descended from a Japanese naval officer who fought in WW2. But having Japanese descent doesn't mean that he also "inherited" Japanese culture the way he did black hair and epicanthic folds. Especially not when he was born in a colonial world centuries in the future.

So yes, he remade the Combine into what he saw as classic Japan as he wanted it to be. It doesn't mean he got it all correct - no more than Sun-Tzu Liao did when he initiated his reforms following the Second Star League.

Let me put it this way.  In real life, I’m a lawyer.  Any time I see a movie or a TV show that involves a courtroom, they get it wrong.  Eventually I just had to shrug my shoulders and say “apparently that’s how the law works in TV land”.

Or if you’ve ever seen a movie set in a real life city or town.  Watch closely and you’ll say “that street doesn’t go there” or “those buildings are nowhere near each other”.  You know The Exorcist, where the guy falls down the long staircase?  There isn’t a window there for him to fall out of.  But I guess things are different in the world of the movie.  Same thing with Battletech.

[Banzai]

In my headcanon they stole the Eiffel Tower. After spending several centuries in Tokyo, it's considered a "traditional Japanese icon" to the Kuritans.

"How do you freaking steal the freaking Eiffel Tower?"

[Tai Dai Cultist]

"How do you freaking steal the freaking Eiffel Tower?"

Same way the London Bridge ended up in Arizona.  Only without permission.

Edit: Also: the same way the Eiffel Tower ended up in Japan in the first place (in our 'future'), again only without permission.

[haesslich]

In that way, Shiro really wasn't that different from Nicholas Kerensky, was he?

He deliberately set up the Kurita family to be near divine, so it's a little different.

@massey - it's less BT Japan was The Last Samurai, and more that Shiro Kurita was a romantic in love with his concept of what Japan could have been, had it never fallen behind the rest of the world and had maintained its caste system as well as what things he liked most about the pre-opening Japan.

[jklantern]

I feel like this discussion is a great time to say that I love House Kurita. 

[Kidd]

@massey - it's less BT Japan was The Last Samurai, and more that Shiro Kurita was a romantic in love with his concept of what Japan could have been, had it never fallen behind the rest of the world and had maintained its caste system as well as what things he liked most about the pre-opening Japan.

Isn't that exactly Last Samurai, to a tee?

[Mecha-Anchovy]

I feel like this discussion is a great time to say that I love House Kurita.

It is indeed a very interesting and sorely under-appreciated part of the Inner Sphere.

Isn't that exactly Last Samurai, to a tee?

I'd say, rather, that Shiro Kurita is to bushido as Inazo Nitobe was to bushido, or as G. K. Chesterton was to medieval Europe. Historically accurate? No. Passionately inspired by? Yes.

Everyone knows that Shiro Kurita's vision of classical Japan was romantic rather than historical. That's fine, and a sensible thing to point out. Where I disagree with critics is with the idea that this makes House Kurita or the Draconis Combine any less legitimate.

You might as well complain that the Knights of the Inner Sphere and NeoChiv aren't a particularly accurate reflection of 6th century AD warrior codes as would have been practiced by the closest historical analogue to King Arthur. Avalon City is literally built on top of a theme park. The culture of the planet Northwind is, I am sure, not exactly the same as that of the Scottish highlands. Or look at anything the Marian Hegemony has ever done ever.

The Inner Sphere is full of organisations inspired by a romantic or idealised vision of some past culture. That's just, well, a feature of this universe. The Draconis Combine is no worse than any other. Shiro was inspired by a particular (romanticised, idiosyncratic) vision of the samurai, and he was clever, pragmatic, and ruthless enough to conquer an empire and use that vision to create a unifying set of cultural practices. Haesslich is right. Shiro wasn't faking, he wasn't a hypocrite or deceptive or anything like that. He just produced his own creative interpretation of a traditional culture in a way that suited both his personality and his political goals... and that is a very common practice in BattleTech.

[Elmoth]

After listing all those wannabe historical inspired powers I need to go and design a periphery area that goes for a Greek city state theme. Or 2 of tem, so we can have a peloponessian war

[haesslich]

Isn't that exactly Last Samurai, to a tee?

Shiro Kurita seems to be less a Tom Cruise fan than he is of  James Clavell.

[R.Tempest]

 Slightly out of universe but I'm remembering some bits from the Honor Harrington novels where similar issues come up. Cultures that have developed sword fighting (Grayson) or indeed a whole culture (Montana) that was based on romanticized versions of what the founders thought.
 Then people come along and bring access to the original cultures on Old Earth. And the `Movies' that much of this was based on. So the Grayson's get Samurai, Ninja and other `Kung-fu' style movies. The Montanan's get westerns. And they love them.
 Wonder if the same would happen in the BT universe.
 `Enter the Dragon' as an ISF indoctrination film. The various iterations of the 7 Samurai (including The Magnificent Seven) as general entertainment.
 `Braveheart' perpetually running on Northwind (wonder what they would think of Highlander).
 Any of the big Cecil B. DeMille epics about Rome in the Marian Hegemony.
 Other than media I would think that legitimate items from Terra would be extremely valuable. What would a Kimono made from actual silk in Japan be worth on New Samarkand for instance (or a robe made in China on Sian). Or real earth grown tea?
 Or an authentic Katana that is 1500 years old?

[glitterboy2098]

`Enter the Dragon' as an ISF indoctrination film. The various iterations of the 7 Samurai (including The Magnificent Seven) as general entertainment.

actually in Black Dragon "Voice of the Dragon" studios made versions of those sorts of films for the Combine, as combination entertainment and propaganda. Comancho's Cabelleros ended up drafted as extras for some of the films recreating more recent settings (using locusts vismodded to resemble madcats for example, in sub-scale battle scenes), and there was lots of mention of actors dressed as ancient samurai for more classic tales.

one film, which we get to see part of as the characters watch it, was one of the first films released outside the combine to the wider IS,. the name? Exit the Dragon

[Kidd]

the Camacho's Caballeros books were always a tad more colourful

RIP Victor :(

[jklantern]

Oh man, I remember them talking about one of the films in Black Dragon.  And it was GLORIOUS. 

[Chaeronea]

Shiro Kurita seems to be less a Tom Cruise fan than he is of  James Clavell.

Obviously a man of taste.

`Enter the Dragon' as an ISF indoctrination film. The various iterations of the 7 Samurai (including The Magnificent Seven) as general entertainment.

I remember that in Black Dragon that the boss of the Voice of the Dragon was pretty amped that he'd managed to get Ninyu Kerai-Indrahar to watch Chushingura with him.

[GespenstM]

I'm vaguely aware that Kuritan mech pilots carry swords with them into combat.  Do they actually use them for anything?

Yes. Generally speaking, a Kuritan pilot's katana is used for deflecting PPC and Autocannon blasts.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Getting back to the OP, two thoughts:

1) If those katanas or wakizashis are vibroblades and if vibroblades can do stupid stuff like cut through military-grade alloys and armors, then 31st century samurai swords could do something practical like help a MechWarrior cut his way out of a cockpit with a blocked or malfunctioning ejection system.  (Or cut a fellow MechWarrior out of their cockpit.)

2) If a MechWarrior is forced out of their cockpit away from friendlies and rescue is some time away, any blade is useful in a survival situation, even if no enemy units are around.  Sure, the 31st century equivalent of an Ka Bar or even a Swiss Army knife would make more sense.  But when you need to cut wood or wire for fire or shelter, any blade is still a blade.

[Caedis Animus]

Getting back to the OP, two thoughts:

1) If those katanas or wakizashis are vibroblades and if vibroblades can do stupid stuff like cut through military-grade alloys and armors, then 31st century samurai swords could do something practical like help a MechWarrior cut his way out of a cockpit with a blocked or malfunctioning ejection system.  (Or cut a fellow MechWarrior out of their cockpit.)

2) If a MechWarrior is forced out of their cockpit away from friendlies and rescue is some time away, any blade is useful in a survival situation, even if no enemy units are around.  Sure, the 31st century equivalent of an Ka Bar or even a Swiss Army knife would make more sense.  But when you need to cut wood or wire for fire or shelter, any blade is still a blade.

Katanas aren't really designed to do either of those things with any amount of effect. I'm not saying that you'd be better off without a blade, but... something like that is really on the "Useless outside of trying to kill completely naked infantry" level.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

A sword as long as a katana is going to be extremely difficult to use for either application.

[jklantern]

A sword as long as a katana is going to be extremely difficult to use for either application.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

*Three days later JKLantern's Skeleton is found out in the forest somewhere, holding onto a katana embedded in a tree.*

[haesslich]

Getting back to the OP, two thoughts:

1) If those katanas or wakizashis are vibroblades and if vibroblades can do stupid stuff like cut through military-grade alloys and armors, then 31st century samurai swords could do something practical like help a MechWarrior cut his way out of a cockpit with a blocked or malfunctioning ejection system.  (Or cut a fellow MechWarrior out of their cockpit.)

2) If a MechWarrior is forced out of their cockpit away from friendlies and rescue is some time away, any blade is useful in a survival situation, even if no enemy units are around.  Sure, the 31st century equivalent of an Ka Bar or even a Swiss Army knife would make more sense.  But when you need to cut wood or wire for fire or shelter, any blade is still a blade.

For point 1, there may be rules for vibroswords styled as katana, but the novels and fluff describe them as normal swords. They're basically ceremonial save for certain situations (like VSD defending himself with one on two occasions). Oh, and on Kentares when they ran out of bullets and power packs, to execute civilians by the thousands.

2) No, not a sword. They're not designed to cut wood, and while they won't immediately break, they're not going to be good for anything save small twigs and branches which you could saw away better with the axe that's part of your survival kit. Honestly, a four to five inch blade is better than a sword in pretty much every survival or wilderness situation I can think of. You can stick a knife on a long stick to get a spear, which is more practical when dealing with wildlife than a sword that might get stuck in someone's hide/shoulder.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Swords really aren't useful in a practical sense for uses other than killing people.

For the Kuritans, they're primarily useful as badges of station.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

For point 1, there may be rules for vibroswords styled as katana, but the novels and fluff describe them as normal swords. They're basically ceremonial save for certain situations (like VSD defending himself with one on two occasions). Oh, and on Kentares when they ran out of bullets and power packs, to execute civilians by the thousands.

There are vibrokatanas in the game, they're even used by some Draconis Battle Armor.  But they're rare and the overwhelming majority of katanas in Kurita space are just regular old swords.

[Mecha-Anchovy]

Swords really aren't useful in a practical sense for uses other than killing people.

That's part of the sword's mystique, isn't it? It is exclusively a weapon of war.

Whereas spears are used for hunting, axes for chopping wood, hammers for construction, and so on. Even though this particular spear/axe/hammer/etc. might be a military model and completely useless for civil applications, it still falls within a family of objects with civil or constructive uses.

A sword, on the other hand, is only for killing other human beings. It's not an improvisation or an adaptation. It is designed for warriors alone.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Maces and morning stars don't really have civilian application, either.

[Mecha-Anchovy]

Yes, but they're not as iconic or attractive as a sword.  ;)

[Caedis Animus]

Maces and morning stars don't really have civilian application, either.

I mean, you could problably use them as a sledgehammer in a pinch. A Mace, at least.