Author Topic: Infantry Support Options  (Read 13076 times)

Terrace

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Infantry Support Options
« on: 10 November 2017, 00:26:53 »
I have to admit, there's quite a lot of options. Most of them are pretty good, while others are situational.

We all have our favorites for each situation. For general use I'd go with SRM Launchers. For those gearing up to fight other infantry I'd go with Machine Guns (or Firedrake Needlers if I'm playing LCAF). But for defending Artillery that has access to Homing Rounds, I'd give them Light TAG to give any artillery hunters a very bad day without having to resort to direct fire.

What would you pick?
« Last Edit: 10 November 2017, 10:41:52 by Terrace »

Daryk

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #1 on: 11 November 2017, 20:57:10 »
In general, I prefer using long range laser rifles (e.g., the Intek) as the secondary armament for my infantry.  That lets their auto-rifles reach all the way out to 9 hexes without impacting their movement.

truetanker

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #2 on: 12 November 2017, 17:38:02 »
Reminds me of the clan Mauser IIC Point I created for a game.

Armor Divsor:2
25-troopers each carrying 2 Mauser IICs, one Primary and one Secondary.
68.5 round up 70 points damage @ 9 hexes for 3 tons.

Good times.

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Thunder

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #3 on: 16 November 2017, 00:50:46 »
I am unaware of rules that would allow infantry to dual wield rifles.

Would you be so kind as to expand upon how you created such a unit?

Weirdo

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #4 on: 19 November 2017, 17:49:17 »
There aren't any such rules. With the exception of disposable weapons*, an infantry trooper may only carry one weapon.

* There are probably other exceptions that slip my mind at the moment, but this sure isn't one of them.
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Demon55

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #5 on: 20 November 2017, 00:31:22 »
I would try to keep a few other units near my infantry to draw a little fire and add a bit of firepower.  I would also keep their APCs close enough to move them but not close enough to the Opfor to expose them to unnecessary weapons fire. 


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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #6 on: 21 November 2017, 15:35:02 »
In general, I prefer using long range laser rifles (e.g., the Intek) as the secondary armament for my infantry.  That lets their auto-rifles reach all the way out to 9 hexes without impacting their movement.

I’m not sure that is how it works, two support weapons per squad should be -1mp even if they are not technicaly ‘support weapons’.


I started with SRMs but tend towards the heavy support laser these days. I find the range more than compensates for the lack of movement. That said I keep some ‘line’ infantry platoons with rifles and machine guns nearby for anti infantry work, even if there is (imho) little in game reason to do so.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #7 on: 21 November 2017, 16:06:22 »
I’m not sure that is how it works, two support weapons per squad should be -1mp even if they are not technicaly ‘support weapons’.

Tech Manual is specific in saying that two Support Secondary Weapons per squad cost you mobility. If the laser rifles aren't Support weapons, they don't slow you down.

Quote from:  Tech Manual, page 151
These limits only apply when the Secondary Weapon is a Support Weapon. Platoons using Melee or Standard Secondary Weapons do not modify their mobility.
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pheonixstorm

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #8 on: 21 November 2017, 17:07:55 »
Mauser 960 Primary
Single Grenade Launcher (Auto) as Secondary Support

Full 9 hex range and no loss of movemnt plus 1.01 damage per troop. Best to give them the Environmental Suit, Marine for the 2.0 damage divisor. Or a Sneak Suit if some kind for better hiding.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #9 on: 22 November 2017, 05:07:29 »
Tech Manual is specific in saying that two Support Secondary Weapons per squad cost you mobility. If the laser rifles aren't Support weapons, they don't slow you down.

Lol I had missed that, that is wonderfully broken.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #10 on: 22 November 2017, 09:11:14 »
I tend to run mixed infantry companies, with one platoon of laser rifles and the rest standard auto-rifles or machineguns.  The laser rifles give you some stand-off fire capability, while the regular auto-rifles pose enough of a short range threat to keep things from closing on the laser rifle group.  In one instance, I split the one platoon into squads, with 3 squads of laser rifles and 1 with mortars for IDF support.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #11 on: 22 November 2017, 09:13:55 »
Lol I had missed that, that is wonderfully broken.

Challenger
I wouldn't really call it broken. It's really hard to get the kind of range/damage combinations you can get using actual support weapons(or even going with a pure loadout of top-tier rifles), so the extra mobility only seems fair.
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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #12 on: 22 November 2017, 10:44:40 »
I wouldn't really call it broken. It's really hard to get the kind of range/damage combinations you can get using actual support weapons(or even going with a pure loadout of top-tier rifles), so the extra mobility only seems fair.

I was thinking in comparison to the basic autorifle platoon.

By swapping 8 autorifles for Inteks you treble the range of the unit, barely reduce the damage output, but keep more or less the same BV.

Worse compared to a pure Intek platoon, you’ve gained a significant amount of damage but actualy decreased your BV!

Admittedly the main issue I have is the BV, a squad of assault rifles with 2 marksmen rifles looks pretty close to RL loadouts.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #13 on: 23 November 2017, 00:00:07 »
Thanks for the citation, Weirdo... it's been a crazy week that included losing my thumb drive with all my pdfs on it.

Challenger: the two marksmen rifles being close to real life is one of the reasons I really like that load out.  Beyond BV, it's also relatively cheap in terms of C-Bills.  Auto-rifles are ridiculously inexpensive, and Inteks are no more than vanilla laser rifles.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #14 on: 23 November 2017, 08:45:28 »
Challenger: the two marksmen rifles being close to real life is one of the reasons I really like that load out. 

I think its a pretty cool idea.

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Terrace

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #15 on: 23 November 2017, 17:50:01 »
Ok, next question. When a Platoon's primary weapon is some form of Laser Rifle, what would you consider the standard option for their support weapons?

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #16 on: 23 November 2017, 19:49:39 »
Ok, next question. When a Platoon's primary weapon is some form of Laser Rifle, what would you consider the standard option for their support weapons?

Support Laser or Support Pulse Laser...maybe semi-portable versions on gyroscopic harnesses...or maybe support PPC's...

Or, if you want a bit of variety in the unit, some type of missile...

Of course, you could just do some semi-portable or support machine guns...if you keep it to one per squad, then the range should be based off the laser rifles, and damage for the unit would not be majorly impacted...

Although I personally like the option of man-portable plasma rifles...

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Terrace

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #17 on: 24 November 2017, 01:03:42 »
Came up with a Solahma Infantry Point that had the Clan Pulse Laser Rifle as their primary armament, with each squad getting a Clan ER Laser Rifle as their "support weapon" (And since it would make sense to put it in the hands of the best Warrior in each squad, Clan ranking logic would make it the Squad Commander's personal rifle).

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #18 on: 27 November 2017, 15:04:59 »
Ok, next question. When a Platoon's primary weapon is some form of Laser Rifle, what would you consider the standard option for their support weapons?

Machine guns, 1 per squad. (Realisticaly I’d prefer two, but it messes up the range)

IMHO an infantry squad needs an automatic weapon to lay down suppressive fire. A pulse laser would be better for uniformity of ‘ammunition’, but I don’t consider any of them to be light enough for use in the ‘light machine gun’ role.

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Terrace

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #19 on: 27 November 2017, 15:10:36 »
Machine guns, 1 per squad. (Realisticaly I’d prefer two, but it messes up the range)

IMHO an infantry squad needs an automatic weapon to lay down suppressive fire. A pulse laser would be better for uniformity of ‘ammunition’, but I don’t consider any of them to be light enough for use in the ‘light machine gun’ role.

Challenger

Checking Sarna.net's info on infantry weapons, the semi-portable Support Pulse Laser is slightly lighter than a Support Machine Gun (40kg compared to 44) in return for more than double the range. If you've got infantry strong enough to carry the thing around, then why not use it?

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #20 on: 27 November 2017, 16:10:48 »
Sorry should have clarified i meant the portable machine gun not the full blown support version. At 11.5kg it is heavy but manageable for a squad pushing forward into contact.

I’d be tempted to treat the support machine gun and semi portable pulse lasers in the same way as a modern 50cal, a support platoon weapon, not something to be dragged about by rifle platoons.

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Terrace

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #21 on: 27 November 2017, 16:22:21 »
Sorry should have clarified i meant the portable machine gun not the full blown support version. At 11.5kg it is heavy but manageable for a squad pushing forward into contact.

I’d be tempted to treat the support machine gun and semi portable pulse lasers in the same way as a modern 50cal, a support platoon weapon, not something to be dragged about by rifle platoons.

Challenger

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #22 on: 27 November 2017, 16:57:35 »
We are still talking about 40kg of dead weight which is something like half the weight of your average trooper! The harness might let them fire it accurately, but I’d question if most troopers could carry it far and remain combat effective.

That said it depends on what your using it for. A squad support weapon for a foot platoon needs to be light enough to carry into the assault. For a ‘motorised’ platoon the squad support weapon can be much heavier as it can be left mounted on the squads’ vehicles. Mind you, my problem for motorised platoons is resisting the temptation to give them all heavy support lasers!  >:D

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Terrace

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #23 on: 27 November 2017, 17:16:05 »
And what about Jump Platoons? I know they take some kind of penalty on Support weapon weight in exchange for their mobility. What kind of Support weapon would be standard for them?

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #24 on: 27 November 2017, 17:49:46 »
Honestly, I'd be inclined to go with no support weapons at all. Use their mobility to the fullest, and equip them with something high on damage and low on range. If mechs are motivated to avoid a jump platoon's engagement range and have a chance of doing so, you can use those platoons to influence the movement of those mechs, herding them according to your designs.

If it'll get you another point or so of damage, I guess go ahead and give them a support weapon per squad. Above all, do not slow them down. The Auto Grenade Launcher might be good here. Anything with a crew value of 1 (not 1E) is good, as well as a base range of 1 through 4. That's how you get the -2 modifier at pointblank range that convinces a mech or tank that they wandered into the wrong neighborhood. (Note that the light machine gun Challenger mentioned fills this requirement, but none of the heavier ones do, nor do any kind of support laser.)
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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #25 on: 27 November 2017, 17:52:37 »
And what about Jump Platoons? I know they take some kind of penalty on Support weapon weight in exchange for their mobility. What kind of Support weapon would be standard for them?
Now thats an interesting question I’ve never realy considered.

My gut says the weapons needs to be light weight for the rifle platoons because they still have to be carried forwards by the strength in your arms. But, there is little reason why larger weapons couldn’t be used in the support platoons. Interestingly though the rules allow even heavy support lasers to move and fire!

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Terrace

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #26 on: 27 November 2017, 18:19:33 »
Now thats an interesting question I’ve never realy considered.

My gut says the weapons needs to be light weight for the rifle platoons because they still have to be carried forwards by the strength in your arms. But, there is little reason why larger weapons couldn’t be used in the support platoons. Interestingly though the rules allow even heavy support lasers to move and fire!

Challenger

Yeah, according to Sarna, the "typical" example for using Jump Infantry in an Anti-Mech (here) role gives each squad a Heavy Support Laser. But then, I figure that group's job is to wait in ambush using Hidden Rules, then blasting a big chunk out of the enemy armor using a Point Blank shot, then using their Jump Packs to vanish before the target can return fire.

Set up in the next ambush point, rinse, repeat.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #27 on: 27 November 2017, 18:52:58 »
I don't see anything saying that's a 'typical' platoon. That's just one of the many platoon types in 3085, a lot of which are extremely specialized and uncommon.
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Daryk

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #28 on: 27 November 2017, 19:51:41 »
*snip*
If it'll get you another point or so of damage, I guess go ahead and give them a support weapon per squad. Above all, do not slow them down. The Auto Grenade Launcher might be good here. Anything with a crew value of 1 (not 1E) is good, as well as a base range of 1 through 4. That's how you get the -2 modifier at pointblank range that convinces a mech or tank that they wandered into the wrong neighborhood. (Note that the light machine gun Challenger mentioned fills this requirement, but none of the heavier ones do, nor do any kind of support laser.)
Yes, the Automatic Grenade Launcher is the best way to go if you're looking for one Support Weapon per Squad without going to a 1E weapon.  With 1.49 points of damage, it's just too good to pass up.  Throw six Auto-Rifles at the rest of a squad, and you have a Jump Squad that can do 5 points of damage with that -2 bonus and full mobility.  It also shares the Auto-Rifles ridiculously low price.  For under 1,000 C-Bills, you get  the Support Weapon version of the Auto-Rifle. Among the Machine Guns, only the Light is cheaper, but you're better off with an Auto-Rifle than one of those...

Terrace

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #29 on: 27 November 2017, 20:15:17 »
So a reasonable fluff-based cutoff for maximum size on Support Weapons for Jump Infantry would be 20kgs if you don't plan on sacrificing mobility?

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #30 on: 27 November 2017, 20:30:50 »
Weight is a poor measure for that... the lightest "1E" weapon is 7.0 kg (the Thunderstroke Gauss Rifle), while the heaviest "1" is the MRM Launcher at 30.0 kg.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #31 on: 27 November 2017, 21:15:54 »
Why not the SRM, Light?  Range 2, .57 damage and weighs in at 10kg / 9kg per reload.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #32 on: 27 November 2017, 21:19:37 »
Because it takes two of them per Squad to up the range of your Auto-Rifles (damage 0.52) to 2, and slows the platoon down.  If you only take one (to avoid the movement penalty), you're not increasing the damage of a Squad over just another Auto-Rifle.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #33 on: 27 November 2017, 21:28:52 »
I rather have range over damage myself. The ability to send some love downrange far out weighs the cost.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #34 on: 27 November 2017, 21:36:08 »
Then your best bet is a pair of Inteks (or other Range 3 rifle) per Squad with the balance being Auto-Rifles.  All the range, some of the damage, but all the mobility and that -2 Weirdo mentioned...

Terrace

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #35 on: 27 November 2017, 22:06:34 »
Ok, tell me if this sounds crazy;

Primary: Laser Rifles
Secondary: 1x Automatic Grenade Launcher per squad

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #36 on: 27 November 2017, 22:29:27 »
Remember, actual custom designs(even infantry platoons) properly belong in the Fan Designs forum. :)
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truetanker

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #37 on: 27 November 2017, 22:30:40 »
Designate a commander squad should help.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #38 on: 28 November 2017, 03:22:29 »
Because it takes two of them per Squad to up the range of your Auto-Rifles (damage 0.52) to 2, and slows the platoon down.  If you only take one (to avoid the movement penalty), you're not increasing the damage of a Squad over just another Auto-Rifle.

IMO this is the single biggest problem with the infantry design rules, autorifles are too good and most support weapons to underwhelming.

I know why it ended up this way, but it still feels wrong.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #39 on: 28 November 2017, 04:20:26 »
Remember, actual custom designs(even infantry platoons) properly belong in the Fan Designs forum. :)
It would be nice if either the Battle Armor board included "Infantry" in its title, or if there was a sub-forum for Infantry... :)

As for the auto-rifle issue, it won't be fixed until TPTB are willing to abandon the table links to older editions.  Honestly, they seem to be doing it by increments through the errata.  What they really need to do is sit down with a spreadsheet of all the possible AP/BD/Burst combinations and work from that vice making estimates in ATOW and being surprised how things turn out when converted.  That's how I ended up with my Machine Gun and Grenade Launcher threads down in Fan Rules...

Terrace

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #40 on: 28 November 2017, 18:45:42 »
Ok, but talking seriously here, how would you guys rate the viability of a Platoon (any motive type) that's equipped primarily with Laser Rifles of some variety with a single Automatic Grenade Launcher per squad? Sure, the switch from Auto-Rifles to Laser lowers the damage a bit, but surely the increased range makes up for it?

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #41 on: 28 November 2017, 20:22:14 »
Terrace, in fairness, most likely usage of Lasers with said Auto Grenade would be a specialist unit. You've gotta think economics and military budgetary. Auto Rifles and Auto Grenade, yes, but with Lasers?

Bean counters unite, NO!

Common practice is best for bang, per buck.

NOW haven said that, know there isn't any possible way of saying, YES PLEASE! any faster. As long as you understand that this combo is good, some would say Cheese munch!

TT
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Terrace

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #42 on: 28 November 2017, 20:56:13 »
Terrace, in fairness, most likely usage of Lasers with said Auto Grenade would be a specialist unit. You've gotta think economics and military budgetary. Auto Rifles and Auto Grenade, yes, but with Lasers?

Bean counters unite, NO!

Common practice is best for bang, per buck.

NOW haven said that, know there isn't any possible way of saying, YES PLEASE! any faster. As long as you understand that this combo is good, some would say Cheese munch!

TT

Sounds like Great House Special Forces-level equipment to me.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #43 on: 28 November 2017, 20:58:30 »
Sounds like Great House Special Forces-level equipment to me.

There are some particularly wealthy worlds that use laser weapons as standard issue. Because they can.

Terrace, in fairness, most likely usage of Lasers with said Auto Grenade would be a specialist unit. You've gotta think economics and military budgetary. Auto Rifles and Auto Grenade, yes, but with Lasers?

Bean counters unite, NO!

Common practice is best for bang, per buck.

NOW haven said that, know there isn't any possible way of saying, YES PLEASE! any faster. As long as you understand that this combo is good, some would say Cheese munch!

TT

Come on, it doesn't even have paired heavy support lasers or anything by Mauser.  :P
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Terrace

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #44 on: 28 November 2017, 21:02:09 »
Come on, it doesn't even have paired heavy support lasers or anything by Mauser.  :P

C'mon. Can you honestly tell me that any one of the Great Houses doesn't have at least a Company's worth of Special Forces infantry equipped in exactly that fashion?

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #45 on: 28 November 2017, 21:03:49 »
C'mon. Can you honestly tell me that any one of the Great Houses doesn't have at least a Company's worth of Special Forces infantry equipped in exactly that fashion?

That or worse.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Weirdo

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #46 on: 28 November 2017, 21:30:48 »
It's not bad, actually. You've got the range of the lasers, the grenade launcher brings your damage back up, and your guys keep their mobility and close-in accuracy. Pretty nice jack of all trades load. And I'd hardly call it overly expensive. You won't see backwoods militia hauling this gear, but I wouldn't see any problem with a front line regiment packing this, such as one of the regiments attached to an RCT.

You know who I might see with a good middle-road load like this? Smaller entities. Not talking single-world units, I'm talking mercs, corpsec. They don't have the near-bottomless treasuries of a House or March, but they also don't have to outfit millions of infantry. When you're only buying guns for a company or two, and the success or failure of those troops may mean the death or severe maiming of your entire outfit, opting to go a tier or two higher than the cheapest mass-produced crap you can find isn't going to put THAT big a dent in your budget.

Hell, opting to have your mechwarriors fire off one or two less tons of LRM ammo during a peacetime training garrison would probably make up the budget difference.
« Last Edit: 28 November 2017, 21:32:47 by Weirdo »
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truetanker

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #47 on: 28 November 2017, 21:35:48 »
Trust me... I can make a 3070+ Draconis Combine Infantry Platoon from hell!

Magna Laser Rifle
Vibro-Katana
Medium Variable-Speed-Laser Support...

TT
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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #48 on: 28 November 2017, 21:45:14 »
Still too many weapons to be legal. One primary weapon choice, one secondary weapon choice. No more, unless you want to start talking disposable weapons or field guns.
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truetanker

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #49 on: 28 November 2017, 22:00:39 »
Weirdo, I'll rather take the shoot or scoot.

Now I CAN choose to run with last paragraph, above Assigning Secondary Weapons pg.151.

As long as the secondary weapon isn't a support weapon.

TT
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Daryk

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #50 on: 28 November 2017, 23:34:07 »
It's not bad, actually. You've got the range of the lasers, the grenade launcher brings your damage back up, and your guys keep their mobility and close-in accuracy. Pretty nice jack of all trades load. And I'd hardly call it overly expensive. You won't see backwoods militia hauling this gear, but I wouldn't see any problem with a front line regiment packing this, such as one of the regiments attached to an RCT.

You know who I might see with a good middle-road load like this? Smaller entities. Not talking single-world units, I'm talking mercs, corpsec. They don't have the near-bottomless treasuries of a House or March, but they also don't have to outfit millions of infantry. When you're only buying guns for a company or two, and the success or failure of those troops may mean the death or severe maiming of your entire outfit, opting to go a tier or two higher than the cheapest mass-produced crap you can find isn't going to put THAT big a dent in your budget.

Hell, opting to have your mechwarriors fire off one or two less tons of LRM ammo during a peacetime training garrison would probably make up the budget difference.
Looking at it from that perspective, customized weapons from the Companion enter the picture.  One of the possible mods I particularly like is to drop the Intek to 1 power point per shot...

truetanker

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #51 on: 28 November 2017, 23:41:01 »
Eh...

Marx XX is just as good... even better with damage, but I see what you like about Intek, more ammo per clip.

TT
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Weirdo

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #52 on: 28 November 2017, 23:50:16 »
Now I CAN choose to run with last paragraph, above Assigning Secondary Weapons pg.151.

As long as the secondary weapon isn't a support weapon.

TT

...I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.
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truetanker

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #53 on: 28 November 2017, 23:54:32 »
It refers to allowing Secondary weapons (Melee and Primary) as long as it isn't Secondary (Support) in the unit to do both Fire and Move.

TT
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Daryk

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #54 on: 28 November 2017, 23:56:22 »
Eh...

Marx XX is just as good... even better with damage, but I see what you like about Intek, more ammo per clip.

TT
The Mark XX is also significantly more expensive...

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #55 on: 29 November 2017, 00:00:34 »
It refers to allowing Secondary weapons (Melee and Primary) as long as it isn't Secondary (Support) in the unit to do both Fire and Move.

TT

That is correct, but you are still limited to a total of two weapons per platoon.  So in the above case, either Magna + Vibro, or Magna + VSP, or Vibro + VSP.  Not all three.

truetanker

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #56 on: 29 November 2017, 00:01:08 »
Yeah by 500 C-Bills... one more E damage.

Marx 5E/3
Intek 4E/3

TT
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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #57 on: 29 November 2017, 00:01:47 »
It refers to allowing Secondary weapons (Melee and Primary) as long as it isn't Secondary (Support) in the unit to do both Fire and Move.

TT


...yes? I'm still trying to understand how someone might think a platoon equipped with this
Trust me... I can make a 3070+ Draconis Combine Infantry Platoon from hell!

Magna Laser Rifle
Vibro-Katana
Medium Variable-Speed-Laser Support...

TT

Is legal. You've got a primary weapon, a secondary weapon, and a third weapon that you have to leave at home because you get primary and secondary, but you don't get tertiary except in cases I'm not going to bother listing anymore because we all know them by now. Which is primary, which is secondary, which isn't part of the platoon at all?
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truetanker

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #58 on: 29 November 2017, 00:03:09 »
That is correct, but you are still limited to a total of two weapons per platoon.  So in the above case, either Magna + Vibro, or Magna + VSP, or Vibro + VSP.  Not all three.

I thought you could use all three, with the shoot or scoot mode? Or is there a mod in SO/TO?

TT
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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #59 on: 29 November 2017, 00:20:34 »
I thought you could use all three, with the shoot or scoot mode? Or is there a mod in SO/TO?

TT

Nyet.  "Shoot or scoot" to the best of my knowledge refers to Foot platoons with 1 MP that are equipped with two Support weapons per squad.  At no point is there a mod to allow three weapon choices per platoon.  (Unless you could one-shot disposable weapons, or field guns.  Neither of which were under discussion)

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #60 on: 29 November 2017, 00:31:09 »
Yeah by 500 C-Bills... one more E damage.

Marx 5E/3
Intek 4E/3

TT
500 becomes quite a bit more once you throw in the multipliers for customization, then the price formula for infantry...

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #61 on: 29 November 2017, 00:40:03 »
Nyet.  "Shoot or scoot" to the best of my knowledge refers to Foot platoons with 1 MP that are equipped with two Support weapons per squad.  At no point is there a mod to allow three weapon choices per platoon.  (Unless you could one-shot disposable weapons, or field guns.  Neither of which were under discussion)

Exactly this. You choose one weapon to be your primary, you choose one weapon to be your secondary, and at this point you are done choosing weapons. If you keep going, it means you're talking about disposables or field guns. That's it.
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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #62 on: 29 November 2017, 10:46:20 »

Bean counters unite, NO!

Common practice is best for bang, per buck.


Theres often truth in this, but it is not always the over riding concern. For example there are a number of reasons why the US uses a relatively complex weapon like the M4/16 rather than a simpler/cheaper weapon like the AK74. It might be that some militaries decide that the advantages of lasers outweigh the costs.

There is also prestige to consider, if the DCMS have swanky new laser rifles you can guaranty that the AFFS will want some too.

Challenger

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #63 on: 30 November 2017, 00:45:36 »
To the OP I go with a generic version of the M&G G-150 rifle with an attached 3-round grenade launcher like several of the canon combination weapons. Damage 0.58, base range of 2 so it can reach out to 6 hexes and combined cost of about 750 c-bills. I generally forgo secondary weapons; total potential damage for a 28-soldier platoon is 16. I fluff in 2 support grade weapons in the fourth squad, but it's total fluff. I add in a generic version of the LAAF 3060+ armor kit with its damage divisor of 2, only 730 C-bills. Foot platoon: 2,150,000 C-bills.
Simple, relatively cheap.

If I want a heavy weapons platoon I use heavy support lasers, 2 per squad of course, and just fluff the platoon as I wish. Infantry are so abstract in BT it really doesn't matter to me, just as long as the stats and cost are accurate.
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boilerman

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #64 on: 02 December 2017, 13:46:17 »
Heavy Weapons Platoon Option

I've been thinking about the BA Tube Artillery lately, using it as infantry field artillery. The BA Tube Artillery is what a heavy mortar should've been when stats for infantry mortars where introduced in TRO3026.

If you use the TO Field Artillery rules, and ignore intro dates, the BA Tube Artillery only requires 2 adaptations in my opinion; weight and cost. Heavy class weapons cut down for BA usually weight a fraction so let's say the heavy weapon class version of the BA Tube Artillery weights 10 times the BA version, so 5 tons. Reducing an artillery piece's mass is more about advanced metallurgy than anything else, so I say cut the cost in half.

Vehicle version of BA Tube Artillery (AKA Heavy Mortar):
Type: AE, S, F
Heat: who cares?
Damage: 3/1
Range: 2 Boards
Ammo per ton: 60 (nice round number)
To-hit mod: 0
TC: No
Rules level: Adv
Tech base: IS/Clan
Tech Level: B/D-D-D
Intro: Pre-space flight, never went extinct
Cost:
Item: 100,000 C-bills
Ammo: 900 C-bills
Weight: 5 tons
Spaces: I don't care
BV: 27
Ammo BV: 4


I've never really liked field guns or or field artillery in BT but the BA Tube Artillery at least makes me rethink it for creating a mortar platoon.

Sorry for the threadjack.   :-[
« Last Edit: 02 December 2017, 13:57:12 by boilerman »
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Weirdo

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #65 on: 02 December 2017, 20:30:30 »
Hey, remember when a moderator told you that customs and fan rules belong in the Fan Designs and Rules sections? Despite how lax said mod was in the discussion after that regarding platoon loadouts, there are limits.
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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #66 on: 02 December 2017, 20:38:49 »
Perhaps the thread should be moved down there?

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #67 on: 02 December 2017, 23:06:40 »
 ::)
I thought we were talking support infantry. Field artillery infantry...
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truetanker

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #68 on: 03 December 2017, 16:20:57 »
My bad... been a busy week at work and only had time to post a bit there.

I meant using the Medium Variable-Speed-Laser as a field gun.

Now what I would like to see is more on Clans and less IS tech... just wish we could see a more general basis, and not just " These get this, while they get so and so... "

Or even just a generic trooper, where we, the players, could add the weapons. As Infantry is way limited and abstracted than aerotech rules, I for one wish there was such a design package.

Inner Sphere Generic has < insert weapon > Armor Divisor of 1 ( can upgrade for " X " )
Clan Generic has < insert weapon > Armor Divisor of 2
House Specific has < insert weapon > Armor Divisor of 2 ( can outfit with " X " for lost MP )

Something like this... pick Primary, Secondary and Field Gun ( optional ).

Example:
Clan Generic Platoon, Foot ( 25 ), Primary: Mauser IIC, Secondary: Gauss Pistol, Armor Divisor: 2, Movement Point(s): 1
Clan Generic Platoon, Jump ( 20 ), Primary: Mauser IIC, Secondary: Gauss Pistol, Armor Divisor: 2, Movement Point(s): 3

Something like this.

TT

EDIT:

But I can now, thanks to the AToW Companion, make a better Draconis Foot Platoon using the Snibbie PPC Support as a Field Gun.

TT
« Last Edit: 03 December 2017, 16:38:48 by truetanker »
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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #69 on: 03 December 2017, 23:10:58 »
No energy weapon can be used as a field gun. That's a very hard no, per the rules.
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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #70 on: 04 December 2017, 10:34:40 »
So I've been looking over the infantry again recently, and while I'm not sure if I've asked this before, its worth asking again. Are the various standard weapons that do around 1 point of damage (or more) just too good for the system? I mean, if you want to choose between a AC2 and an AC20, you trade off damage for range, heat, size, crit slots, etc.

Under Conventional Infantry rules, often you get the damage, and the range. The downside is BV, c-bill cost, weight, fluff and factionalism.

BV matters, but in the case of BT and its BV, you pay for what you get. You pay for the high damage, long  range unit, but you also get the high damage and long range. Maybe if you have less than 100 BV and you're looking to squeeze something in it would be an issue, but most of the time its going to be accepted because of its effectiveness.

C-bill cost could be a possible limiter. Obviously there's a difference between a 10,000 c-bill Mauser 1200 and a 30 c-bill auto-rifle. And in campaign play or something, I could see that being a problem, but the other half of the time, someone's talking about how costs in BT are messed up and doesn't apply to the era they're in or what not.

Weight..well, they're not factored in as part of the calculation for unit weight under TW. It might matter if you're going to work in the RPG or something, but under the basic rules it doesn't really come into play. (As an aside, I notice the latest Infantry Table I'm looking at (v3.0) is using the pre-errata weight of the M61-A). So its kind of a wash.

Fluff and Factionalism work for some people, but they're not really a coded limiter on gameplay/construction. There's a thread about how a rarity table would be bad because people would use it to prevent you from playing with what you want, so yeah. Factionalism as a break isn't really effective. Fluff would place an artificial limit when making a unit, but again, its arbitrary, and not a hard break.

So we really only have BV as a limit, and in BT's "You pay for what you get," its not a very good one. So what do y'all think? Are the "good" weapons just too good?

Challenger

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #71 on: 05 December 2017, 14:21:50 »
I tend to design a infantry platoons as if it was a real platoon and then try to make something like it with the construction rules.

I don’t think we need to worry about infantry platoons being too good, they are so fragile its hard to make something too broken. Nor are the realy good platoons particularly cheap.

I think there are weapons that obviously outshine the others, but I think it is a case of many weapons being too weak rather than a few being too strong!

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Maelwys

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #72 on: 06 December 2017, 12:05:34 »
I don’t think we need to worry about infantry platoons being too good, they are so fragile its hard to make something too broken. Nor are the realy good platoons particularly cheap.

I think there are weapons that obviously outshine the others, but I think it is a case of many weapons being too weak rather than a few being too strong!

Oh, I'm not saying that infantry platoons are too good for the game. Battle Value theoretically takes care of that. I'm wondering if certain infantry weapons are too good compared to other infantry weapons.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #73 on: 06 December 2017, 14:05:40 »
Definitely, but I would suggest the problem is too many weapons are too weak and need a buff, rather than any particular weapon needing a nerf.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #74 on: 06 December 2017, 16:53:38 »
In my opinion, there's simply not enough difference between some of the basic choices to provide any "flavor".  Either you're fielding "basic" infantry with auto-rifles, or you're using something exotic and expensive.  There's nothing in that "marginally better" class, with something like 1/3/4 or 1/3/5 range bands, or something that does 25% more damage at short range.  Laser rifles are about the only available "step up".  If you resort to field guns for a touch of uniqueness, that's a whole different animal, with setup times and fixed facings.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #75 on: 06 December 2017, 17:18:30 »
Well Auto-Rifle (.58 ) is the default Generic... but how many of you make use of Rifle (.14 ) or Ancient AR (.17 )?

Also, WOB also used the Variable Pulse Laser Rifle (.33 range 1 6kg / .3kg (6/1)). SO imagine 36 troopers w/ these and Inferno Grenade Launchers?!?

 }:)

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #76 on: 06 December 2017, 17:30:19 »
Which book has the TW-scale stats for that? I don't remember seeing it in Tech Manual.
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Maelwys

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #77 on: 06 December 2017, 18:05:39 »
The A Time of War Companion. And the WoB probably wouldn't use it since the Davions produced the handheld version late in the Jihad.

But here we go. Modern weapon. Damage value of .33. Range of 1. Why not take the Mauser at 3 times the damage, and IIRC, a base range of 2.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #78 on: 06 December 2017, 18:27:43 »
True... was thinking for portability and you could hide it under clothes ala sawed-off style.

Bulk vs Compact.

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Maelwys

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #79 on: 06 December 2017, 18:52:02 »
Eh, it looks kind of bulky, but hard to tell. Only 6kg though, compared to the 1200's 11.

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Re: Infantry Support Options
« Reply #80 on: 08 December 2017, 14:52:33 »
Definitely, but I would suggest the problem is too many weapons are too weak and need a buff, rather than any particular weapon needing a nerf.

Challenger
This, next time you see someone complain about infantry swarms point this out to them, if infantry had better damage and range they'd have a higher BV and thus you couldn't buy as many of them for a given BV.

 

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