Butcher's Bill: June 3152 DCMS vs. AFFS

[MarauderD]

I reread Dominions Divided these last couple evenings and took some notes.  Without a comprehensive Field Manual 3152 type product, I thought I might list out what I found and see if it was of any interest to the Inner Sphere aficionados we have here.

DCMS confirmed losses, as of June 3152
5th Sword of Light (Elite/Reliable)  Destroyed on New Avalon, dying to the last MechWarrior when Kanrei Toranaga was captured. 
2nd Genyosha (Veteran/Fanatical)  Damaged on New Avalon, reformed with Ryuken-hachi as Black Sword.  Destroyed on Greeley.
Ryuken-hachi (Elite/Fanatical) Damaged on New Avalon, reformed with 2nd Genyosha as Black Sword.  Destroyed on Greeley.
Ryuken-san (Veteran/Reliable) Damaged in Dragon's Tongue campaign, Destroyed on Greeley.
11th Ghost (Veteran/Questionable) Damaged in Dragon's Tongue campaign, Destroyed on Greeley.

As with all BattleTech events, even when clearly stated that these commands were destroyed, there may be some survivors.  They may even exist in paper shortly afterwards.  Sword of Light, Genyosha, and Ryuken commands tend to get rebuilt.  As to the timeframe, who can say.  Personally, I've painted up 20 mechs in 5th Sword colors, so while I can always use them to represent the Combine, I'd love them to reform soon.   

AFFS Losses, Conjecture
5th Avalon Hussars LCT (Veteran/Reliable) Savaged on Plymouth fighting Black Sword, lost two companies on Mauckport to 2nd NS Regs.
1st Kestrel Grenadiers RCT (Elite/Fanatical) Fought on Mansfield, "crushed" in a pincer movement on Tsamma by the 2nd NS Regulars.

So strangely, there are no confirmed units destroyed for the AFFS.  Between the Rec. Guides, and a few other sources, we've heard of Davion Irregulars and Davion Auxiliaries.  Both appear again here in Dominions Divided.  For example, the Second Davion Irregulars becomes the core of the new First Robinson Rangers.  I'm wondering if between the lines, we can assume that units that took heavy losses would be reinforced or draw on these ad hoc units. 

As for the Kestrel Grenadiers--back in 3025 they had some cool unit history.  Feels like since then, I've never seen a unit described as Elite meet with so many losses.  Poor guys are like the clown car of the AFFS, taking a literary beating to represent the fortunes of the nation. 

Anyway, if anyone was curious, there you go. 

[Decoy]

I'd say you need to look as far back as the beginning of the Rift campaign to get a true indication of the scale of things. Then you need to look at the quality of replacements. Declaring an ad hoc group of Mechwarriors the new Robinson Rangers is good and all, but are they of the same level?

[Metallgewitter]

Just take a look at the Assault Guards. The unit has taken so many beatings it's a wonder the unit still exists on the rolls. Heck they got shamed by a light Mech unit until eric decided to play "hoard the Mech" by placing minefields severly slowing the light Mechs.

As for making up looses. Don't forget that Palmyra despite being the grave of 13 combat units held a significant amount of survivors. Erik granted all of them a rise in rank and all of them decided to keep fighting. I would bet that those veterans filled holes in existing units. In terms of losses for the Combine: those losses seem rather light in the amount of units lost but one has to remember that the Dragon's tongue was mostly guarded by Wolf's Dragoons. There is even a specific mention in DD that Julian and Erik were surpised by the low amount of defenders and were wondering if the success of the Combine really hinged more on Wolf's Dragoons then actual DCMS units

[VensersRevenge]

Completely losing five elite or veteran 'Mech regiments is a pretty big blow, especially when the DCMS has to turn to fight the Ghost Bears

[Dahmin_Toran]

Completely losing five elite or veteran 'Mech regiments is a pretty big blow, especially when the DCMS has to turn to fight the Ghost Bears

Don't remind me. 

[Decoy]

Oh hey. it was perfectly valid tactic to throw Toranaga's forces to the foxes. Now Yori's forces are now more politically reliable and resolutely behind the coordinator!  Furthermore, the remaining DCMS units will want to prove that they're not like those that got tossed out of the FedSuns. Their ferocity in their desire to redeem the Dragon's honor will surely serve the DCMS in good stead!

[Minemech]

 It is quite likely that Clan Ghost Bear is in for a smacking. The ball is in the TPTB's court, but there are excellent opportunities for character development.

[Metallgewitter]

The wording in DD surely makes it sound as if the Bears are in for a very rude awakening. And Yori probably wants to show that she can defeat a "real" Clan (the destruction of the Nova Cats while impactful can be chalked up to "That Clan was weak"). Plus showing that the "defeat" against the Fedsuns was Toranaga's fault not hers.

[MarauderD]

The wording in DD surely makes it sound as if the Bears are in for a very rude awakening. And Yori probably wants to show that she can defeat a "real" Clan (the destruction of the Nova Cats while impactful can be chalked up to "That Clan was weak"). Plus showing that the "defeat" against the Fedsuns was Toranaga's fault not hers.

Maybe--but I don't think the DCMS denuded the RasDom border for their adventures in the FedSuns.  I just think that if it came down to a knock down, drag out style contest, they will miss those 5 Veteran/Elite formations. 

[BrianDavion]

ohh they'll absolutely miss those 5 regiments,  I don't think the Bear/Combine conflcit is going to be a clean quick one for eaither party. the term "short victorious war" was used which makes me think the conflict's going to become a Quagmire.

[Metallgewitter]

Maybe--but I don't think the DCMS denuded the RasDom border for their adventures in the FedSuns.  I just think that if it came down to a knock down, drag out style contest, they will miss those 5 Veteran/Elite formations.

That is FM 3145 information but the RasDom border with the Combine was seriously understaffed. Plus the Combine also focused more on taking more Republic planets (until Operation Clarity broke the alliance with House Liao). Now comes the real question: how laong can the units on the Rasdom border hold until reinforcements arrive? And are said reinforcements even strong enough? I think the one Elite unit on the RasDom border was the 1st Sword of Light the rest was I think made up of Pesht Regulars. Of course what could swamp the Bears would be huge Guerilla movements

[BrianDavion]

thing is with the HPG net being down bringing in reinforcements will be slow, especially at anything more then a trickle of 1 regiment here 1 there, by time the DCMS rallies their reserves the bears could be on Luthien

[tassa_kay]

The Bears could be on Luthien immediately, considering they're only a jump away from it as of the end of DD.

[Metallgewitter]

Yeah the dominion stands on Port Arthur bascially right next to Luthien. But there is one point to think of: the Dominion apparently only send one Galaxy for this short war. the rest of the touman is either in dissaray from the short civil war or guarding the capitals of Alshain and Rasalhague. They also seem to have an invasionof Luthien in preparation. And while enlistment rose thanks to this war it is the same as for the Combine: green recruits filling the ranks to make up for the severe loss in manpower especially in experience. And as stated several times: it almost sounds as if the Bears are set up for failure or at the very least for a rude awakening. And as a furhter note: the reinforcmenets Alaric might be expecting will not be quick to turn up.

[tassa_kay]

Yeah the dominion stands on Port Arthur bascially right next to Luthien. But there is one point to think of: the Dominion apparently only send one Galaxy for this short war. the rest of the touman is either in dissaray from the short civil war or guarding the capitals of Alshain and Rasalhague. They also seem to have an invasionof Luthien in preparation. And while enlistment rose thanks to this war it is the same as for the Combine: green recruits filling the ranks to make up for the severe loss in manpower especially in experience. And as stated several times: it almost sounds as if the Bears are set up for failure or at the very least for a rude awakening. And as a furhter note: the reinforcmenets Alaric might be expecting will not be quick to turn up.

Who needs the rest of the touman when you can just throw the Alshain into the mix (with Valkyrie Galaxy attached in its entirety) and really make Black Luthien earn its nickname? 

[BrianDavion]

Who needs the rest of the touman when you can just throw the Alshain into the mix (with Valkyrie Galaxy attached in its entirety) and really make Black Luthien earn its nickname? 

I mean as much as the dracs suffering massive losses due to orbital bombardment would be extreme karmic justic, I doubt that'll happen.


That said if the DC gains the services of the MAC that could be sufficant to turn the tide of a war otherwise going badly

[Metallgewitter]

Who needs the rest of the touman when you can just throw the Alshain into the mix (with Valkyrie Galaxy attached in its entirety) and really make Black Luthien earn its nickname? 

Considering how much resources the Combine wasted just to down the Ursa Major during the 2nd Dominion combine war if that happens I can see them throw everything and the kitchen sink to down that Leviathan with impunity.

[tassa_kay]

Y'all need to update your humor firmware. 

That said if the DC gains the services of the MAC that could be sufficant to turn the tide of a war otherwise going badly

This is the only thing in DD that I'm truly interested in seeing play out. That picture was foreshadowing to the nth degree and I'm surprised it didn't get any actual mention in the text.

[Shin_Fenris]

Who needs the rest of the touman when you can just throw the Alshain into the mix (with Valkyrie Galaxy attached in its entirety) and really make Black Luthien earn its nickname? 

This made me chuckle more than I'd like to admit.

[Lorcan Nagle]

Who needs the rest of the touman when you can just throw the Alshain into the mix (with Valkyrie Galaxy attached in its entirety) and really make Black Luthien earn its nickname? 

Maybe they'll remember the massive network of naval laser-toting satellites BattleSpace said the Combine were building in the system.

[Decoy]

That was probably wrecked and left unrepaired after the retreat from Luthien in the Jihad?

Also , maybe they'll remember the RasDom's hatred of all things mercenary! DEATH TO MAC!

[Church14]

And as a furhter note: the reinforcmenets Alaric might be expecting will not be quick to turn up.

Can you elaborate? I don’t get how Alaric is involved in the Bears invasion of DC?


If you meant he expects Bears to come to Terra, then he’s a blithering idiot. I feel like someone has had to explain to him that his demand and the following civil war burned that bridge.

[Decoy]

I think it's a reference to the Snow Ravens moving their way from the Periphery. Given the Raven force is likely to be Warship escorted, there's not much anyone can do unless the Ravens are stopping to take every system along the way or the DC has forces to do something about it.

[MarauderD]

Who needs the rest of the touman when you can just throw the Alshain into the mix (with Valkyrie Galaxy attached in its entirety) and really make Black Luthien earn its nickname? 

The Bears already took Yamarovka, Asgard, and Port Arthur at the end of DD.  How crazy would it be to have the Combine have its capital occupied so quickly after they had taken New Avalon?

[tassa_kay]

The Bears already took Yamarovka, Asgard, and Port Arthur at the end of DD.  How crazy would it be to have the Combine have its capital occupied so quickly after they had taken New Avalon?

I think it’d be poetic justice, personally.

[Metallgewitter]

Can you elaborate? I don’t get how Alaric is involved in the Bears invasion of DC?


If you meant he expects Bears to come to Terra, then he’s a blithering idiot. I feel like someone has had to explain to him that his demand and the following civil war burned that bridge.

Too be honest yeah I would say that Alaric expects the Bears to be at his beck and call now that they have decided to join. Though DD also mentions in the end that the Bears launch their war against the combine to show Alaric that they are worthy. Which I would assume would make Alaric go "Huuhhh?" because he needs all the troops he can get to actually defend Terra. Let's not forget Wolf Clan warriors are becoming a decidely small minority with each battle they fight. Othar is raiding the sibkos to defend the Empire and if the FWL war goes as expected (a total steamroll of the Empire) trueborn Wolves will become very rare

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

That was probably wrecked and left unrepaired after the retreat from Luthien in the Jihad?

Also , maybe they'll remember the RasDom's hatred of all things mercenary! DEATH TO MAC!

As if the authors would miss an opportunity to remove another WarShip from the setting.

[Minemech]

 The worst scenario for the Bears is that they ultimately lose Rasalhague and Alshain. This is neither an impossible nor improbable scenario. The worst case for the Wolves is that Nikol is bribed to send a few line regiments and aerospace assets to support the Capellan invasion of Terra, probably on Mars, with the Combine receiving a similar treatment. Do not think that Yori would not be willing, it means erasing a possible source of future heartburn, reinforcing her Clan-killer status, and possibly getting further aid against the Bears afterward.

[Metallgewitter]

The worst scenario for the Bears is that they ultimately lose Rasalhague and Alshain. This is neither an impossible nor improbable scenario. The worst case for the Wolves is that Nikol is bribed to send a few line regiments and aerospace assets to support the Capellan invasion of Terra, probably on Mars, with the Combine receiving a similar treatment. Do not think that Yori would not be willing, it means erasing a possible source of future heartburn, reinforcing her Clan-killer status, and possibly getting further aid against the Bears afterward.

I doubt Nikol would actually go after Terra. Kincaid already gave her a good reason to not go after Terra and rather focus on her occupied worlds.

The nightmare scenario for the Bears would be if the Horses decide to invade the Dominion to get another route to Terra. Nothing makes for an easier target then a distracted opponent who also lost 30% of his manpower especially for a Khan who just took over and wants to proove he is better then his predecessor. After all Rasalhague is right next to New Oslo which the Horses took during the IlClan trial. And, if the war against the Combine turns south I could also see a new flare up of the just quelled civil war. Right now Joiners and Deniers are more or less bound by this supposed short war. If it goes long or Heaven forbid the Dominion starts warcriming again like in the 2nd Dominion-Combine war I can see a real breaking point coming. Though to be fair without HPG such news would probably only travel really slow.

[Church14]

Too be honest yeah I would say that Alaric expects the Bears to be at his beck and call now that they have decided to join. Though DD also mentions in the end that the Bears launch their war against the combine to show Alaric that they are worthy. Which I would assume would make Alaric go "Huuhhh?" because he needs all the troops he can get to actually defend Terra. Let's not forget Wolf Clan warriors are becoming a decidely small minority with each battle they fight. Othar is raiding the sibkos to defend the Empire and if the FWL war goes as expected (a total steamroll of the Empire) trueborn Wolves will become very rare

Alaric turned away the Rasalhague Dominion and effectively demanded that they come back to him as Clan Ghost Bear. There is no way he has no intel coming in during the RasDom civil war that tells him that’s not happening. That there isn’t a Clan Ghost Bear anymore.

Which, his demand in DD/AQoS was already breathtakingly stupid. I can’t believe that going forward the story team is going to make Alaric a blistering idiot who thinks someday the Bears will be there.

[BrianDavion]

I think it’d be poetic justice, personally.

It would but at the same time I'm a little leery of Luthien being occupied. it's one of those "things that done sparingly can really be a shocking thing" but if over done just loses it;s impact. I think I'd rather see the dracs prioritize the defence of Luthein to such a degree that it costs them elsewhere, sort of a "strategic robbing peter to pay paul" scenerio. Where perhaps the DCMS is pulled to Luthein to defend it and as a result they lose several important worlds to the FS and the Bears as they denude them of troops.

Maybe have the Defence of Luthein allow the Davions to take a few planets, hell let em take back Marduk or even Quintein (losing quintin would be a HUUUGE blow to the dracs. eneugh that "yeah they held Luthein but lost Quintin as a result" would be rough, it'd be the equivilant of the Fedsuns holding new avalon but losing Kathil as a result_

[CJC070]

It would but at the same time I'm a little leery of Luthien being occupied. it's one of those "things that done sparingly can really be a shocking thing" but if over done just loses it;s impact. I think I'd rather see the dracs prioritize the defence of Luthein to such a degree that it costs them elsewhere, sort of a "strategic robbing peter to pay paul" scenerio. Where perhaps the DCMS is pulled to Luthein to defend it and as a result they lose several important worlds to the FS and the Bears as they denude them of troops.

Maybe have the Defence of Luthein allow the Davions to take a few planets, hell let em take back Marduk or even Quintein (losing quintin would be a HUUUGE blow to the dracs. eneugh that "yeah they held Luthein but lost Quintin as a result" would be rough, it'd be the equivilant of the Fedsuns holding new avalon but losing Kathil as a result_

Agreed we already had the invasion of Avalon.  Having Luthien Part II with the Ghost Bears playing the Nova Cats and Smoke Jaguars seems to repetitive.  However if this is in the same flavour as the upcoming iClan battle (Capellans vs. Wolf Empire) where it becomes a world wide event for us to participate in I can get behind it.

[tassa_kay]

It would but at the same time I'm a little leery of Luthien being occupied. it's one of those "things that done sparingly can really be a shocking thing" but if over done just loses it;s impact. I think I'd rather see the dracs prioritize the defence of Luthein to such a degree that it costs them elsewhere, sort of a "strategic robbing peter to pay paul" scenerio. Where perhaps the DCMS is pulled to Luthein to defend it and as a result they lose several important worlds to the FS and the Bears as they denude them of troops.

Maybe have the Defence of Luthein allow the Davions to take a few planets, hell let em take back Marduk or even Quintein (losing quintin would be a HUUUGE blow to the dracs. eneugh that "yeah they held Luthein but lost Quintin as a result" would be rough, it'd be the equivilant of the Fedsuns holding new avalon but losing Kathil as a result_

You'll forgive me if I don't find the self-serving argument of "nah, let's just let the FedSuns take some worlds from the Dracs instead" to be any more impactful than Luthien being occupied (or glassed, as I was originally suggesting) by the Clans for the first time ever. The rinse-and-repeat tug of war at the border, talk about something losing its impact. 

[Stormlion1]

Luthien doesn't need to be glassed. The Clans could go for a ground invasion instead but with no thought of occupation. Just wholesale destruction and harvest if people for Bondsman. Might even be funny if they capture Yori Kurita and essentially chop off the Dragons head both figuratively and in actuality.

[tassa_kay]

Luthien doesn't need to be glassed.

It absolutely does. While the ghosts of the Nova Cats and Kentares laugh maniacally and roast marshmallows as it burns.

[Hellraiser]

As if the authors would miss an opportunity to remove another WarShip from the setting.

Oh god no, don't give them ideas.

I think it’d be poetic justice, personally.

Agreed.
Remember Palmyra!  (or Pearl Harbor or Kentares)

You'll forgive me if I don't find the self-serving argument of "nah, let's just let the FedSuns take some worlds from the Dracs instead" to be any more impactful than Luthien being occupied (or glassed, as I was originally suggesting) by the Clans for the first time ever. The rinse-and-repeat tug of war at the border, talk about something losing its impact. 

You might not feel that way if it was Sian being burned down, lol.

Actually I'm not a fan of any of the capitols being glassed or even invaded.
Mostly because I find it all so improbable as part of the story.

We had a 2 century long 3rd SW because no one had the armies, willpower, transport ability, to drive that deep into invasions anymore.
I actually understood the 4SW because it came down to Steiner/Davion joining up & then full accepting that the Drac March was going to take abuse even w/ Steiner distracting Kurita.  It allowed the largest army to pick on the smallest army & it still only chopped off a couple Prefectures.  It also had Michael, a traitor who had been found out & Justin, a spy that no one saw coming. 
I can also get Operation: Guerrero where you had Katie pulling out all Lyran troops at the same time Marik & Liao combined intel & did a Joint invasion.  Net Effect = Big Win

Pretty much all the stuff in the post jihad stories doesn't seem to have those kinds of combined allies & intel sharing.
Instead we get Palmyra some sort of contrived battle where 1 side totally waffle stomps the other with "stupidity & improbability" as their allies.
13 Units destroyed?  13 Regiments/RCTs/LCT?
So 13+ Wings/Regiments of their own attached ASF & they couldn't put together a defensive fleet to hold off a the enemy prior to them smoking your Cruiser & then bombing the units on the ground.
Sorry, I just have issues w/ such 1-sided battles.

Even the stories of Wolves taking Terra.  There are a LOT of warships mentioned.  And I like that, don't get me wrong.
But I'm forced to wonder where they came from.
I mean, I could see the Terran shipyards making some new ships "IF THEY ACTUALLY WANTED TO" grrr, stonertech, gah!
  But where would the Wolves get new Warships from?

Going on offenses like the 4th SW & even the Wo39 Dracs on Defense were both supposed to have crippled civilian shipping & the economy for decades afterwards.
Now days even w/ 1/2 the shipyards in the IS wiped out & everyone shorter on JS that ever its like you can just spend a few years on offense w/o any issues.

Oddly, I'd like to see the logic/backstory behind these things, but maybe that is just me.

[tassa_kay]

You might not feel that way if it was Sian being burned down, lol.

Oh, please. I toughed out York being bombarded for over twenty days straight and my favorite faction being ground into absolute dust with no hope of a comeback ever. I stopped crying about Bad Things Happening to factions I like (all I care about is logic and consistency) a long time ago.

[Arkansas Warrior]

We had everyone’s capitals being attacked/invaded/occupied a few years ago (OOC) during the Jihad.  More recently we’ve had Tharkad attacked by clans, New Avalon occupied by the DC, and possibly something due to happen on Luthien.  At some point, the novelty of “Successor State capital under threat” becomes old news. Yawn.  Seen it.  Oh, another one?  I’d rather that didn’t happen.  Threats to capitals of major interstellar states should be rare and unusual.  But as a FedSuns fan, I’d struggle to feel bad for Luthien if the Bears show up, steal all their factories, loot Intel from various DCMS, ISF, and O5P command centers, and bombard the rest.

[GuyIncognito]

A Battle of Luthien already got a cool scenario pack anyway, haha.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Luthien doesn't need to be glassed. The Clans could go for a ground invasion instead but with no thought of occupation. Just wholesale destruction and harvest if people for Bondsman. Might even be funny if they capture Yori Kurita and essentially chop off the Dragons head both figuratively and in actuality.

This is good idea, they should do all this

And after that they should glass the whole place


If there's a planet in BT that truly deserves to be glassed it's Luthien, having a Clan be the one to do it would make it even sweeter

Tortuga Prime has more redeeming qualities than Luthien

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Oh, please. I toughed out York being bombarded for over twenty days straight and my favorite faction being ground into absolute dust with no hope of a comeback ever. I stopped crying about Bad Things Happening to factions I like (all I care about is logic and consistency) a long time ago.

But the Blood Spirits were never going to be anything more than something for the Adders to beat the shit out of. That's all they were the moment they were introduced and that's the only purpose they served until they day they died. Luthien actually means something.

[Metallgewitter]

The Bears invading Luthine would only turn into a quagmire. Luthien's garrison weasn't reduced as far asiknow.Heck with it's fanatical defenders they might turn the invading Bears to shreds as the Bears only brought ONE galaxy to the front. And the Jihad showed that a Leviathan can be brought to it's knees when you have enough nukes

[BrianDavion]

But the Blood Spirits were never going to be anything more than something for the Adders to beat the shit out of. That's all they were the moment they were introduced and that's the only purpose they served until they day they died. Luthien actually means something.

Little harsh to dismiss as faction someone likes as largely meaningless. I mean what if someone shrugged off the LC's current problems by saying the LC mostly existed to give a ally/source of production to the FedSuns and not that that's done who cares what happens to them? That said I think the home clans, all of them, where doomed simply because the writers couldn't figure out how to tie the home worlds into the narrative of the Inner Sphere and the got tired with basicly writing a second setting

[BrianDavion]

The Bears invading Luthine would only turn into a quagmire. Luthien's garrison weasn't reduced as far asiknow.Heck with it's fanatical defenders they might turn the invading Bears to shreds as the Bears only brought ONE galaxy to the front. And the Jihad showed that a Leviathan can be brought to it's knees when you have enough nukes

Per FM 3145 the Luthien garrion consists of:

The Izanagi Warriors (Elite Fanatical)
the Otomo (Elite Fanatical)
the 2nd Sword of Light (Elite Fanatical)
10 Pescht Regulars (Regular Reliable)
5th Sun Zhang Cadre (Vetern Fanatical 2 battalions)


So basicly 5 regiments of mechs plus supporting conventionals. that's going to be hard to take, the bears would proably need to throw 2 or more galaxies at it to have a chance.

[Metallgewitter]

Per FM 3145 the Luthien garrion consists of:

The Izanagi Warriors (Elite Fanatical)
the Otomo (Elite Fanatical)
the 2nd Sword of Light (Elite Fanatical)
10 Pescht Regulars (Regular Reliable)
5th Sun Zhang Cadre (Vetern Fanatical 2 battalions)

I would suspect that Yori thinned the defenses slightly to cover other borders. But let's not forget that there is also a strong milita and also more DEST units then anywhere else. If the Bears only use Taiga Galaxy as offense they will get thrashed there. Unless they bring more forces which would open holes elsewhere

So basicly 5 regiments of mechs plus supporting conventionals. that's going to be hard to take, the bears would proably need to throw 2 or more galaxies at it to have a chance.

[Minemech]

I would lean on the side of or more. Furthermore, we do not know the status of Luthien's famed aerospace defenses, which likely are aimed at sinking Leviathans.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

But the Blood Spirits were never going to be anything more than something for the Adders to beat the shit out of. That's all they were the moment they were introduced and that's the only purpose they served until they day they died....

Any time I use this reasoning to describe FRR people get big mad

...Luthien actually means something.

It means a single planet among at least 350+ other planets in Draconis Combine

Yes it's important planet but nothing that overall faction couldn't truck on without, Combine is a big place

[tassa_kay]

But the Blood Spirits were never going to be anything more than something for the Adders to beat the shit out of. That's all they were the moment they were introduced and that's the only purpose they served until they day they died. Luthien actually means something.

Just like York meant something to those of us who enjoyed the Blood Spirits and the Home Clans in general. I think I understand what you're saying here; Luthien matters more to the metaplot of the game. And you're not wrong. But the point I was making is that getting upset about these sorts of things is silly. It's all fictional. What's the point of getting so upset about Bad Things Happening to one's faction like Bad Things don't happen to every faction at some point or another?

Little harsh to dismiss as faction someone likes as largely meaningless.

I didn't take it that way. Everyone finds their meaning in this franchise in different things, and it's silly to take things like that personally. Some people here love to ride in and white-knight for their faction if they get even a whiff of someone dismissing it, but that ain't me. What's the point, you know? Other peoples' opinion of the characters and factions I myself enjoy couldn't matter less to me. I'll never understand people that find their self-esteem in how well or not well their factions are doing.

[Minemech]

 I am not a fan of eliminating systems, though some Clan worlds would genuinely be better off abandoned.

[Metallgewitter]

It means a single planet among at least 350+ other planets in Draconis Combine

Yes it's important planet but nothing that overall faction couldn't truck on without, Combine is a big place

The main problem for the Combine is that they are steeped in the samurai culture. The loss of Luthin might turn good soldiers into "brainless" kamikaze who just charge without any strategy jut to regain a percieved loss of honor. House Davion survived the loss of 3 of it's capital worlds because they still were able to follow an exile goverment. And yes during hte Jihad the Combine relocated to New Samarkand for a while but Luthien wasn't lost back then. It was a battlefield nothing more. And let's not forget just like New Avalon Luthien holds a significant level of industrial might. Loosing LAW alone would be a huge blow to the Combine.

[Gorgon]

As a Drac fan I'm fine with the Combine getting smacked, even losing Luthien and Quentin I can very well life with - as long as it's happening on screen. We didn't get to see their (arguably) greatest success from their perspective, give us at least their desperate struggle to keep the Bears and Fedrats (and maybe even Wolfs, who knows) contained. If it's a good story about a faction I find interesting, who cares if the outcome is good or bad? It's the story that counts. Winning or losing only matters on the tabletop. And even then...


Look at the FWL - their best storyline only came to pass because the faction completely imploded.

[Stormlion1]

If a state doesn't have a backup Capitol then there not planning well enough. Losing Luthien would be a blow but a recoverable one. It's the upper tier of the management structure the various states cannot afford to lose. Lose Yori Kurita and the Combine has no designated next leader.

[Minemech]

Look at the FWL - their best storyline only came to pass because the faction completely imploded.

Their best storyline came to pass because they bothered to make a storyline about the League. The two previous Battletech novels were side stories to the main plot.
 Star Lord really was not so much even a side story as roleplayer's campaign.
 Ideal War was an excuse to give Gibson to the Word of Blake.
 I am not really sure they can be considered Free Worlds League storylines when all things are considered.
 

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Any time I use this reasoning to describe FRR people get big mad

Which is crazy because Rasalhague is the very definition of a sacrificial lamb. If you're going to back them it needs to be BECAUSE you like going down with sinking ships.

Their best storyline came to pass because they bothered to make a storyline about the League.

Actually bothering to put spotlight on the FWL and give them things to do made people like them, who'd have thought?

[MarauderD]

As a Drac fan I'm fine with the Combine getting smacked, even losing Luthien and Quentin I can very well life with - as long as it's happening on screen. We didn't get to see their (arguably) greatest success from their perspective, give us at least their desperate struggle to keep the Bears and Fedrats (and maybe even Wolfs, who knows) contained. If it's a good story about a faction I find interesting, who cares if the outcome is good or bad? It's the story that counts. Winning or losing only matters on the tabletop. And even then...

I can't imagine the Combine having enough industry to succeed if they lost Luthien and Quentin in the same 10 year period.  That being said, I think a Rasalhague vs. Combine story line could be interesting, so long as it isn't just a side note. 

If it did turn into a major conflict, I don't see how the FedSuns under Julian (or the Draconis March acting alone under Erik) could possibly not launch an invasion to retake more of the border worlds.  Especially with all the history and precedence of March Lords using their authority to attack enemies without official sanction from New Avalon (George Hasek, Aaron Sandoval, Alexander Hasek, etc etc ad nausem).

[Hellraiser]

Oh, please. I toughed out York being bombarded for over twenty days straight and my favorite faction being ground into absolute dust with no hope of a comeback ever. I stopped crying about Bad Things Happening to factions I like (all I care about is logic and consistency) a long time ago.

That's true, the loss of the Spirits sucked.
They were one of those "later" factions that the FMs fluffed out nicely & while none of them could replace my early love of the Wolves from the Stackpole novels they were one of the ones I really liked.

[Hellraiser]

Per FM 3145 the Luthien garrion consists of:

So basicly 5 regiments of mechs plus supporting conventionals. that's going to be hard to take, the bears would proably need to throw 2 or more galaxies at it to have a chance.

That doesn't even count the kind of "militia" they had in 3052 either where they had what, 3 regiments of retirees in old mechs come out to face the Jag/Cats force?
I'd imagine some of those mechs are still stored somewhere.

[Minemech]

That doesn't even count the kind of "militia" they had in 3052 either where they had what, 3 regiments of retirees in old mechs come out to face the Jag/Cats force?
I'd imagine some of those mechs are still stored somewhere.

I hate to put a damper but if any state can fail at preservation and quality control, it is the Draconis Combine. They are the ones who only buy cheap tires figuring that they are actually saving money because they have to replace them so frequently.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

I can't imagine the Combine having enough industry to succeed if they lost Luthien and Quentin in the same 10 year period....

Is it really that bad?

Like I said it's 350+ system superpower, no matter how important those two planets are there's no way they don't have sufficient industrial capacity somewhere across remaining 348 systems

We have far smaller nations with much higher durability than this

How much industry can you even cram on a single place like Luthien? No way it can be enough to supply something like DCMS all by itself

[Minemech]

Is it really that bad?

Like I said it's 350+ system superpower, no matter how important those two planets are there's no way they don't have sufficient industrial capacity somewhere across remaining 348 systems

We have far smaller nations with much higher durability than this

How much industry can you even cram on a single place like Luthien? No way it can be enough to supply something like DCMS all by itself

The Draconis Combine is a resource poor command economy, the resources are where the leadership says they are to be. The leadership is a mite paranoid and even sabotaged their own warship program to keep dissidents from having strategically useful assets. All trains pass through Moscow.

[Church14]

Is it really that bad?

Like I said it's 350+ system superpower, no matter how important those two planets are there's no way they don't have sufficient industrial capacity somewhere across remaining 348 systems

We have far smaller nations with much higher durability than this

How much industry can you even cram on a single place like Luthien? No way it can be enough to supply something like DCMS all by itself

Due to the massive amounts of environmental decay resulting from the industrial growth, the planet has earned the nickname "Black Luthien."

Suuuper industrialized.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Is it really that bad?

Like I said it's 350+ system superpower, no matter how important those two planets are there's no way they don't have sufficient industrial capacity somewhere across remaining 348 systems

We have far smaller nations with much higher durability than this

How much industry can you even cram on a single place like Luthien? No way it can be enough to supply something like DCMS all by itself

The DC is basically that guy in Civ who builds every building and wonder in his capitol and the rest of the cities are basically just there to color in the map.

[Metallgewitter]

To be fair there are other industrial powerhouses in the Combine like New Samarkand, Marduk or Hachiman (that was the planetwhere HTE started right?) I think the main problem are: the noro system and heavy centralization. I often get the feeling that some realms are very focused on their capital while others have a command circuit that can even withstand the fall of the capital.