Lance on Lance Action! you pick the Winner! Steiner vs Marik 3025

[Hersh67]

I misread the initial post.  With 4 mapsheets (I thought there were only 2), that shifts it to a closer to even odds.  2-3 really good dice rolls will determine who wins.

[Minemech]

 I would favor the League since appropriate terrain is reachable but could win with Steiner.

With the amount of LoS blocking terrain, large lasers are definitely long range.

I generally classify SW weapons in 4 range brackets.

Short (1/2/3 range plus AC/20's-Don't want to waste ammo at long range)
Medium (the 3/6/9 guns barring the AC/20)
Long (AC/5 & 10's, PPC, Large Laser, LRM)
Ultra (AC/2)

My favorite Marauder variant is the -3M (The one that swaps Large Lasers for the PPC's but keeps the AC/5).  In play, there is rarely a situation where I can fire the AC but can't fire the large laser.  And the situations where the extra 1-3 hexes matter aren't all that common either.  This is mostly because of terrain blocking LoS.

My 3025 brackets are measured a bit different:
Short: 3/6/9 or less
Medium: 5/10/15-6/12/18
Long: 7/14/21-8/16/24
Extreme: mapsheets...

 IE I consider the PPC and Large Laser to be medium range weapons
     I consider LRMs and AC/2s to be long range weapons

 

[Hersh67]

Long range weapons are heavily influenced by time period.  In a pre-Helm enviroment a LL is a long range weapon.  Once the Clans arrive and the Helm weapons are in production, it's a heavy medium ranged weapon. 

[Minemech]

 I would argue that long range weapons are often secondary weapons whereas medium range weapons are main guns and are thus the weapons mechs exploit as often as they can.

[Scotty]

I think it's a problem to match up the units one on one within their weight class.

The Awesome can shred the Commando at a range that the Commando can't even retaliate, and the Commando doesn't have the speed to bump the TMM high enough to avoid getting shredded.  The Locust, on the other hand, can reasonably be expected to stay high enough with the TMMs to avoid instant destruction.  If the Archer and Trebuchet focus on the Griffin, even assuming the Locust is toast by now, they'll take it down in short order with between fifty and seventy LRMs a turn bearing down on it with better numbers than it's getting in return.  Even assuming the Trebuchet bites the dust in the exchange, it's still two versus two at this point, and the odds of both Marik 'Mechs being destroyed in that fashion if they're properly selecting targets isn't assured.

[billtfor3]

No love for the Trebuchet..... they are not nearly as bad as people make them out to be.  If you charge in with it your likely to explode, but if you exploit the LRMs medium range bracket, and hang back there till the ammo is gone or down to 1-2 salvos then charge in, it can do some serious damage with the 3 Ledium Lasers.

[Skyth]

Naw...I love the Trebuchet.  Probably my favorite medium mech design.  However, I know it's limitations ;)

[House Davie Merc]

Honestly, if I were playing Marik, I'd just cripple the Commando with a salvo of LRMs or a single turn from my Awesome before the Banshee even gets in range.  It's pretty much a non-issue if it makes a single mistake, because it's not fast enough to generate the TMMs it really needs to avoid crumpling like a tin can.

I was thinking the exact same thing about the Trebuchet .

The Commando has a better chance of generating high enough TMMs to stay alive
longer then the Trebuchet .

If I were playing Steiner the Trebuchet would be my first target because it's got thin armor,
a torso bomb , and it's the fastest enemy unit that's a serious threat of opening a rear
torso in a single salvo .

For a 25 tonner the Commando packs a respectable punch .

I'd keep it out of the fight until the minimum ranges of the Awesome and Archer
can be exploited by eliminating the other sides best defense .  ( The Treb )

A Commando that's on the rear left of an Awesome can dish out the damage
without it responding  while the Archer can at most fire 2 medium lasers up close .

Add in the serious threat of the Griffin 1S shooting through the rear torsos of the
Archer .

The Griffin 1S may be a Griffin -but it's better played as if it's a slower
Phoenix Hawk D  or a Wolverine 6M with another laser and no SRM rack .

Where as the Griffin 1N works best with a little range from the target the
1S is better built to be aggresive and close to point blank backstabbing range .

[willydstyle]

The Trebuchet can generate the same TMMs as the Commando, and while it may have relatively thin armor for its weight, it still has significantly more armor than the commando, and significantly more firepower as well.

[verybad]

Steiner in a walkover. The FWL doesn't have an advantage in any class. The FWL may have an LRM advantage, but that's not saying much. People will use terrain to close. The Banshee is the best assault mech of the era.

I suppose if I'm FWL, I try to get th locust in places to ensure an indirect fire opportunity, if I'm Lyran, I take him out the smash the Treb, then the Awesome (removing firepower quickly as I close. The Lyran force seems to be much more energy based, and also better armored, though I didn't actually calculate that.

All in all, this looks like the Lyrans lose 1-2 mechs, the FWL all 4.

[Jayof9s]

Short range Steiner advantage be damned, Awesome + Archer + Treb = kill any one of the Steiner mechs as they close, so it's a 4v3.

I dunno, with 4 gunnery on all but the treb and the thick armor on all the Steiner 'Mechs except the Commando (which deserves to die if it makes itself an easy target at med/long range) I just don't see the Banshee, Tbolt, or Griffin dying before they close.

The Steiner force should maintain at least a +2 TMM while closing + range modifiers +3/4 from gunnery. The Mariks can choose to either maneuver as well or stand still for the best chance to hit, unfortunately sitting still just makes them easy targets for the long/medium range fire of the Steiner lance, which isn't too shabby either. And if you use the optional -1 TMM for stationary units rule, the Steiner force will have an even easier time hitting back (only mentioned since we always use that in my games). You're looking at a 10+ to hit at long (9+ for the Treb) and 8+ to hit at medium (7+ for the Treb) if the Mariks don't move. Without significant luck I just don't see the Marik lance actually bringing any of the Steiners down in the 3-5 rounds it would take them to close.

[House Davie Merc]

The Trebuchet can generate the same TMMs as the Commando, and while it may have relatively thin armor for its weight, it still has significantly more armor than the commando, and significantly more firepower as well.

Unless the Trebuchet has to turn more then once or turn and go into light woods .
That's something that comes up a lot on the Box Set maps .

Of course at long range the Treb beats the Commando.  It's a low end light mech .
At close range it's 3 medium lasers versus a medium laser, an SRM-4,and an SRM-6 on
 a more mobile platform .

The fact that people feel the need to compare the Trebuchet with the Commando says something
about both designs .
I'm not a big fan of the Commando but I think at 6/9 it may be better to just stay away
until it can be better used .
As the medium mech the Treb doesn't really have that option .
If it doesn't participate the Marik side looses a lot of it's firepower .

The Trebuchet should probably be more compared with the Griffin 1S given the set up .


It probably isn't because the Griffin 1S will EVISCERATE the Trebuchet .

A better choice for the Marik side would have been the Wolverine 6M which would
have made me change my vote .

[Scotty]

The Trebuchet should be compared in the role it's used in, not against single 'Mechs.  Comparing one 'Mech versus one 'Mech for each 'Mech in a lance on lance battle is losing sight of the larger picture.