Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?

[RifleMech]

I quoted a rule from page 187 of A Time of War that explicitly states that unless otherwise noted the BAR of Internal Structure matches the BAR of the Armor a unit mounts.

This still does not mean other properties are inherited and fair enough I probably could be more clear that if somehow the BAR of armor changes it does seem clear the BAR of the IS does not change to match, thus where you can possibly get the case for notation.

Could be and if what you say is correct then IS with Reflective Armor would be reflective as energy weapons have a lower AP against Reflective Armor.

Still never changes what a weapon is classified as.  A Field Gun HRC is still a Vehicular/Heavy Weapon.

Doesn't matter when it specifically says unit not weapon.

Here's what happens.

(Snip)

True that's how the rules are and that's only because of the Arbitrary -3 which doesn't fit.

For Personal Combat Weapons sure.  But as stated many times just because a Vehicular Weapon doesn't suddenly become a Personal Combat Weapon just because it is put into a field gun platoon.

Again it is clearly referencing a defined weapon type.  Personal Combat Weapons.

Except it specifically says what unit is firing. Not Weapon.

If it has a BAR it is a tactical target.  If it has a M/B/E/X rating it is not a tactical target.

It's still a Vehicular/Heavy Weapon.  As indicated that it has to be moved by vehicles.  Because you cannot give Field Guns to PBIs.  It is clearly on a trailer too and trailers do have rules support to be considered vehicular units if they cannot be moved by PBIs.  So worst case scenario a slight re-wording probably could be used.

The rules specifically state vehicular units. Infantry, Motorized/Mechanized or not are still Infantry Units. Not vehicle units.

The decision tree thus is: Is it allowed for Battlemechs?

If yes check for if it is allowed to Industrial Mechs.

If no the component cannot be mounted.

Commercial Armor is not allowed to Battlemechs and Battlemechs are by all definitions not Industrial Mechs so LAMs by IO 114 cannot be built to Industrial Mech standards.

Prohibited Technologies
Except as noted on this list, a LAM may use any equipment not prohibited to BattleMechs, IndustrialMechs, or aerospace fighters. The following items are prohibited in LAMs:

Please note the bolded section. It specifically lists exceptions. The list also specifically says what Armor, Cockpit, and Internal Structure types are available to LAMs. No where does it say that Industrial Armor, Cockpits, or IS are forbidden.

It is about mixing without any doubt, not automatically mounting illegal armors.

There's nothing automatic about it. It's mounter per location. And Commercial Armor is legal under the patchwork armor rules.

If it worked in that fashion a Large Laser should do more than 8 damage to BAR 7 units.  It doesn't.  So clearly there are additional properties to armor beyond BAR and they do not transfer.

It does. It gets a chance for a penetrating critical hit. You're also the one who's insisting that the IS has the BAR of the Armor.

The roll itself, not when to make it, how much damage is required to make it, and only if Armored Chassis Modification is installed.  See above.

Yes. Damage above the BAR get's a penetrating critical hit at BARs 9 and under. BARs 8-9 with a Armored Chassis Mod get a modified roll.

Yeah and this seems settled at this point.

Seems to be.

Worst case scenario and I'm wrong and you can wrap a Battlemech in Commercial Armor head to toe.  This does not suddenly re-classify it as an IndustrialMech and the Penetrating Critical Rules are only for Industrial Mechs(which are considered Support Vehicles) and Support Vehicles.

You're both right and wrong. You're right in that that Armor doesn't change the unit type under it. You're wrong in that penetrating critical hits are only for Industrial/Support Units. The penetrating critical hit is against the Unit's Armor. Put Commercial Armor on a BattleMech and the BattleMech has armor with a BAR-5. Just like if you put Reflective Armor on an IndustrialMech it'd not only have a BAR-10 but it'd take half damage from energy weapons. The Industrial Mech doesn't become a BattleMech because of the Armor. It's an Industrial Mech because of the Structure. Same with Support Vehicles. They can be as armored and effective as combat vehicles but regardless of the armor type used they're still support vehicles because of their structure and how they're made.

Keep in mind if a strike goes directly to Internal Structure of a Support Vehicle and the damage is greater than the BAR there is a Penetrating Critical Hit check made on top of the Internal Critical Hit check.  That seems to pretty clearly indicate IS does have BAR ratings that under normal circumstances match the armor and are built to different standards according to the unit.

Nope. Any hit that damages the structure gets a penetrating critical hit. If damage is directly hitting the structure BAR level is irrelevant as there is no armor to have a BAR.
TW page 207

Penetrating critical hits may occur in addition to any normal critical hits due to location or internal structure damage. The Armored Chassis modification does not affect rolls for these normal critical hits.

the bold is mine.

Going the other way and mounting Standard Armor on an Industrialmech though the simple elegant answer would be you note that the IS has a BAR of 5 and once say an Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Laser strikes nothing but internal and the unit survives there would be a Penetrating Critical check and an Internal Critical check to make.

At worst it seems you need to make notes about differing IS versus different BAR armor.

TW page

Every time the internal structure of a ’Mech, ProtoMech, or aerospace
unit takes damage (from a weapon attack, physical attack, falling, ammo explosions and so on), an internal component may take critical damage; vehicles determine critical damage differently (see Critical Damage, p. 192, in Combat Vehicles).

Again damage directly striking the internal structure renders the armor's BAR level irrelevant as there is no armor to have a BAR. There's a penetrating critical hit because you're hitting the inside of the unit and can damage critical components.

See above and fair enough it seems just because you change the armor it doesn't change the BAR of IS.

See above.

Instead of multiplying TW/TO/IO damage by 6 like page 211 says multiply it by 5 then in the determine Damage Factor step have the modifier work out to 4.

It works for every weapon I've tried it with even without having to worry about the Ordinance step.  As such I'm satisfied.

That's cool.  :thumbsup:

I probably could have stated that more clearly to indicate that I was not meaning there were no benefits, just that my solution did not introduce new ones that did not exist before or strip away any existing benefits.

It's the stripping of benefits that we're talking about.

You have no idea how much I've been waiting for the weather to improve enough in my area to let me get back to my walks without having to worry about being out in the wet and cold, potentially getting sick.

If I treadmill instead I do not walk nearly as much so indoor is kind of not practical for me.

I believe it. Normally I love rain but there's work I need to do outside and I don't want to get soaked doing it.

I checked out an old run route in the dark at 0500 this morning... 1.5 miles in 11:07, and I apparently just beat the thunderstorm that rolled in.  When I went out to the car at 0550 or so, it was pouring rain.  My knee didn't complain on the run, but ached a bit afterward.  Not too bad, though... I may try two laps tomorrow, depending on how it feels.

As far as the rules, like Cannonshop, I think there IS a solution to this problem, and finding it will be legendary.

And to those Heroes who return triumphantly from their quest for the solution shall have "Huzza!"s and "Hooray!"s heaped upon them along with lots of  :thumbsup: and  :beer:  and  :clap: as the land and all those who dwell within it shall rejoice and eagerly await the errata and next printing of the rule book.

[monbvol]

Could be and if what you say is correct then IS with Reflective Armor would be reflective as energy weapons have a lower AP against Reflective Armor.

AP being adjusted is not a function of the BAR as under no system does BAR actually change the AP rating of an incoming attack.

True that's how the rules are and that's only because of the Arbitrary -3 which doesn't fit.

At some point all rules are arbitrary but as I pointed out it is an internally consistent arbitrary.  So it fits.

Doesn't matter when it specifically says unit not weapon.

Except it specifically says what unit is firing. Not Weapon.


The rules specifically state vehicular units. Infantry, Motorized/Mechanized or not are still Infantry Units. Not vehicle units.

Re-arranged this so I could respond to it all at once.

Okay let's look at the interactions.

Field Gun unit attacking personal scale targets, fine resolve with the standard AP 10 BD*6(or if my fix is accepted *5).  I suppose you could argue the AP should be 7 instead of 10 for Rifle Cannons but since that won't save any PBI in existence, even enhanced Manei Domini.

If attacking a Tactical Target resolve as described under TW/TO/IO.

So a Field Gun unit firing a HRC at a Manticore would resolve it just as outlined in Tactical Operations.

Page 212 makes that clear.

Please note the bolded section. It specifically lists exceptions. The list also specifically says what Armor, Cockpit, and Internal Structure types are available to LAMs. No where does it say that Industrial Armor, Cockpits, or IS are forbidden.

Prohibited Technologies
Except as noted on this list, a LAM may use any equipment not prohibited to BattleMechs, IndustrialMechs, or aerospace fighters. The following items are prohibited in LAMs:

Actually it states quite clearly that if it is prohibited from a Battlemech it is not available to a LAM.  It's because of that comma after Battlemech.  Considering there is a mandatory Avionics Critical that must go in the head I'll have to check the Small Cockpit's restrictions as a Command Console is right out.  Torso is only possible if you also mount either a Compact Gyro or a Compact Engine so I'll have to check that too.

The commas clearly indicates each unit type must be considered separately for purposes of determining what is and is not available to LAMs.

As far as the rest I even gave the explicit decision tree's first step.

So the decision tree is like this:

1. Is the desired equipment allowed for Battlemechs?

If Yes continue to step 2.

If no the equipment cannot be mounted.

2. Is the desired equipment allowed for Industrialmechs?

If yes continue to step 3.

If no the equipment cannot be mounted.

3. Is the desired equipment allowed for ASFs?

If yes the equipment can be mounted.

If no the equipment cannot be mounted.

It is explicitly this way so you cannot circumvent the ASF's restrictions on mounting specialty ammunition, an option allowed for Battlemechs but not ASFs.  I asked and was given a ruling that even if it wasn't usable in the Aeromode it still couldn't be mounted.  So just because it is legal for one unit type doesn't make it legal for LAMs.

It does. It gets a chance for a penetrating critical hit. You're also the one who's insisting that the IS has the BAR of the Armor.

Okay rephrasing.  If BAR worked that way a Large Laser would do 9 damage against BAR 8 Armor and it isn't me insisting it is page 187 of A Time of War.

Yes. Damage above the BAR get's a penetrating critical hit at BARs 9 and under. BARs 8-9 with a Armored Chassis Mod get a modified roll.

You're both right and wrong. You're right in that that Armor doesn't change the unit type under it. You're wrong in that penetrating critical hits are only for Industrial/Support Units. The penetrating critical hit is against the Unit's Armor. Put Commercial Armor on a BattleMech and the BattleMech has armor with a BAR-5. Just like if you put Reflective Armor on an IndustrialMech it'd not only have a BAR-10 but it'd take half damage from energy weapons. The Industrial Mech doesn't become a BattleMech because of the Armor. It's an Industrial Mech because of the Structure. Same with Support Vehicles. They can be as armored and effective as combat vehicles but regardless of the armor type used they're still support vehicles because of their structure and how they're made.

This thread solves the problem completely and indicates I'm quite right that the rule is only about mixing armor types on the same unit but not allowing for otherwise illegal armors.  Since that neatly eliminates a lot of potential problems across a wide spectrum of possibilities I'll side with it quite absolutely.

Nope. Any hit that damages the structure gets a penetrating critical hit. If damage is directly hitting the structure BAR level is irrelevant as there is no armor to have a BAR.
TW page 207the bold is mine.

Penetrating critical hits may occur in addition to any normal critical hits due to location or internal structure damage. The Armored Chassis modification does not affect rolls for these normal critical hits

Again damage directly striking the internal structure renders the armor's BAR level irrelevant as there is no armor to have a BAR. There's a penetrating critical hit because you're hitting the inside of the unit and can damage critical components.

See above.

And if you continue that sentence as I did you'll note it says in addition to.  So quite clearly if there is damage spill over or the damage goes straight to internal a penetrating critical check is made in addition to the internal damage critical check.

And Penetrating Critical Hits are specific to Support Vehicles.  Which is a defined unit type that includes Industrialmechs.

Note the bolded part:

Support Vehicles handle damage differently than Combat
Vehicles. Every time a Support Vehicle suffers a hit that exceeds
its BAR rating, a chance exists for a critical hit (called a penetrating critical hit), even if armor remains in that location. Penetrating
critical hits are rolled in the same fashion as standard critical hits
(see Critical Damage p. 192), with the following exceptions.

Industrialmechs are considered Support Vehicles for these rules.

That's cool.  :thumbsup:

It's the stripping of benefits that we're talking about.

I believe it. Normally I love rain but there's work I need to do outside and I don't want to get soaked doing it.

And to those Heroes who return triumphantly from their quest for the solution shall have "Huzza!"s and "Hooray!"s heaped upon them along with lots of  :thumbsup: and  :beer:  and  :clap: as the land and all those who dwell within it shall rejoice and eagerly await the errata and next printing of the rule book.

As I noted the alterations I made give exact same benefits that rules as written already gave them, no more and no fewer.  And since they would still function under a 1/3rd damage reduction instead of a flat -3 I do consider it a net win and will work fine.

Heck I'll even grant that the ammo should still explode for full damage in units with higher BAR than 7 as Cannonshop suggests unless TPTB want to grant an exception and leave the question open until we get an answer because it is a bit unclear and could stand with some clearing up in terms of wording.

As such I am quite satisfied that all pertinent points to this thread are satisfactory to me with my understanding of rules as written that are not changed, a -1/3 damage reduction and, my proposed fix to the conversion rules.

So yeah I think I'm out of this discussion.

[monbvol]

Okay last little relevant bit, there is hope for my suggested fix being accepted.  I ran it by xotl and nckestrel as the moderators of the errat board and xotl has given me permission to post it to the errata board.  So it is up to Paul now to decide if my fix is acceptable and to figure out the wording to not break anything else.

[Daryk]

Good luck with that... he was completely uninterested in my first attempt to point out the problem.

[HABeas2]

Good luck with that... he was completely uninterested in my first attempt to point out the problem.

He does that...

- Herb

[Daryk]

And I like him personally anyway, no matter how much I fight with him here...

[RifleMech]

Some help please.

I just tried to come up with stats for Pom-Pom Guns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_1-pounder_pom-pom and I ended up with them doing 5.94 damage.  :o   It's a 37mm cannon so i used the Medium Recoilless Rifle Damage which is Ordnance D 8X/11A and the rate of fire from wiki.

When I average the three ordnance types (6AP/11BD) I get 4.455

If I lower the AP-3 for it being an old weapon I still get 2.2275. This one seems like it'd be closer but there's no -3 for damage in XTRO:1945. Although there does seem to be a -3 when looking at the 1945 damages and their BT damages.

Using the Conversion I also got 0.6105 for a 37mm Tank round. :-\

So, I'm either right, and I'm definitely using Pom-Poms or I've done something wrong. Which really wouldn't surprise me.  Can anyone help?

Thanks! :)
.

[Daryk]

What burst rate are you using?

[monbvol]

XTRO 1945 is full of special case rules that only apply to it and it alone that one must be careful not to read too much into and remember some things are being fudged by quite a bit to make it playable.

Still I'll give it a look.

6AP gives a PF of 1.5.

Now DF gets interesting depending on how you want to count the 300 RPM listed in the wiki, let's go ahead and take that at face value.  That gives a burst rating of 25.  Divide that by 5 and DF works out to 8.5*11=93.5.

93.5*1.5=140.25/50=2.805 which would round to 3 under TW.

So yeah looks like a MRR to me.

[RifleMech]

What burst rate are you using?

50

XTRO 1945 is full of special case rules that only apply to it and it alone that one must be careful not to read too much into and remember some things are being fudged by quite a bit to make it playable.

Still I'll give it a look.

6AP gives a PF of 1.5.

Now DF gets interesting depending on how you want to count the 300 RPM listed in the wiki, let's go ahead and take that at face value.  That gives a burst rating of 25.  Divide that by 5 and DF works out to 8.5*11=93.5.

93.5*1.5=140.25/50=2.805 which would round to 3 under TW.

So yeah looks like a MRR to me.

How did you get a burst rate of 25?  ??? Wiki gives the Pom-Pom a rate of 300 per minute. Divide that by 6 for number of turns per minute and I get a burst of 50. With that burst rate and averaging the ordnance damage I'm still getting 4.45 rounded to 4. And that might be higher since Pom-Pom rounds were explosive and I didn't include the splash damage. That'd make it 4.785 rounded up to 5.

Also, isn't 3 Damage for the BA Heavy Recoilless Rifle? Not that I'd mind but even that seems kind of high. In a way it makes sense with the high rate of fire but then again the kind of eclipse some Rifles and ACs.

[monbvol]

AToW burst rates are for the 5 second turn not the Battletech 10 second turn.  Therefore when using that conversion you need to use the 5 second figure.  Which is 25 in this case.

[Daryk]

Monbvol has the right of it... And his math gives you more reasonable numbers.

[RifleMech]

AToW burst rates are for the 5 second turn not the Battletech 10 second turn.  Therefore when using that conversion you need to use the 5 second figure.  Which is 25 in this case.

Ah hah! I knew I was getting something wrong! Thanks for telling me what it was.  :thumbsup: :beer:

3 damage points still seems kind of high, especially considering the LRC, but I'll take it. :)

Monbvol has the right of it... And his math gives you more reasonable numbers.

Thanks :thumbsup: :beer:

[Daryk]

3 points for that isn't high if the LRC gets fixed like Monbvol or I proposed... That -3 is just WRONG.

[RifleMech]

So true  :(  I hope they fix it.

[theagent]

Not really. According to old fluff Battletech Companion BA Recoilless Rifles are just "standard recoilless rifles that have been adapted for use on Battle Armor." There's also old rules Combat Equipment that converted RPG weapons to Battletech that had Infantry Recoilless Rifles doing the same damage as their Battle Armor counterparts. Total Warfare changed that. :( 

Now XTRO:1945 is a lot more recent but it also has conversions for use with "Modern Units". Each of the weapons lists an equivalent Battletech weapon.  Basically ranges and damage get changed, drastically. That's where you get a 37mm Tank Cannon being equivalent to Infantry Medium Rifles. And yes, it is the Infantry version. It'd be nice if it were the BA version but as it is, it already does more damage than the 75mm Tank Cannon which is equivalent to a Light Recoilless Rifle. The .57 damage rounds up to 1 point of damage. Even against Mechs. The LRC has it's damage reduced to 0 against Mechs. So I wouldn't go crazy with Tank Cannons just yet. Although I do use them just to have something different.

(snip)

I tend to combine how TRO:1945's weapons worked with the TacOps rules for the Rifles, & treat it this way:

• The listed damage is for use against Infantry, BA, Battle/IndustrialMechs using Commercial Armor, or Support Vehicles with BAR 7 armor
• For every point of difference between the target's BAR rating and BAR 7, either add or subtract 1 point of damage
• "Standard" armor (including the various ferro-fibrous variants & other specialty BattleMech armor) is treated as BAR 10 armor
• The Light, Medium, & Heavy Rifles as presented in TacOps are simply generic items used prior to the invention of Autocannons in-universe.  For those that want to use true real-life weapons, the table from TRO:1945 can be used, just dropping the base damage by 2 (since those damages are for attacking targets armored with BAR 5 armor).  For range purposes, use the equivalent weapon from TechManual (for the ones analogous to Recoilless Rifles, convert them based on the listed Base Range).

Example 1:  A backwater Periphery planet is using a predecessor to the Vedette, armed with the Medium Rifle & equipped with BAR 8 armor.  The Medium Rifle still does 6 points to infantry targets, & still does only 3 points of damage against BattleMechs.  However, the "obsolete" tanks they used to use were equipped with Light Rifles and BAR 4 armor.  7-4 = 3, so the "new" tanks' Medium Rifles do (6+3) = 9 points of damage against the "old" tanks (putting them between a Large Laser & PPC in their effectiveness).  Should a civil war happen to pop up, the Medium Rifle will do (7 - 8 = -1; 6 - 1 = 5) 5 points of damage per shot.

Example 2:  A minor Periphery power is run by a history buff, who likes the "look" of WW2 tanks but doesn't mind using some more advanced tech whenever possible.  He has his forces build some tanks that resemble the T-34 tank (albeit with stronger BAR 8 armor & a more advanced ICE engine), but keeps the 76.2mm guns.  He still gets 40 shots per ton with a 2-ton weapon, but the range is identical to the Light Rifle (Short 4/Medium 8/Long 12 hexes), & damage is essentially identical:  (8 - 2) = 6 points against infantry & BAR 7 armor, (6 - 3) = 3 points against BattleMechs & BAR 10 armor, & (6 - 1) = 5 points against other BAR 8 targets.

Example 3:  Yet another independent Periphery world built bolt-for-bolt copies of the Panzer IV and Tiger I tanks (stats as per TRO:1945) for their armed forces.  The Panzer IV's 75mm cannon is treated as equal to the Light Rifle in range (Short 4/Medium 8/Long 12 hexes), but has 40 shots per ton, does (7 - 2) = 5 points against BAR 7 targets, & (5 - 3) = 2 damage per shot against BattleMechs (equivalent to an AC/2); it also gains a -1 modifier to the To-Hit roll.  The Tiger I's 88mm cannon is treated as the Medium Rifle in range (Min 1/Short 5/Medium 10/Long 15 hexes), but a base damage of (9 - 2) = 7 points against BAR 7 targets, (7 - 3) = 4 points against 'Mech targets (just shy of an AC/5); it also gains a +1 on a roll when determining Critical Hits.

[RifleMech]

I'm not sure I've got your math right. Are you saying that a 47mm tank cannon would have it's damage reduced to 0 points against a mech? -3 against BAR-8+ armor and another -2 for being 2 points less than 7?  ???


I've just gone with a -3 for the tank cannons and left rifle cannon damages alone as they're already reduced.

[Daryk]

This is why the BAR system is superior.  Flat damage penalties at the TW scale lead to ridiculous results.

EDIT: Missing word.

[RifleMech]

True but BAR leads to a spreadsheet of damages. Not that I'd mind but it does make the game more complicated. I think a big help would be if damage wasn't reduced to zero.

[Daryk]

You only need a spreadsheet if you play with multiple types of armor.

[monbvol]

Like I said caution must be taken with applying XTRO 1945 information outside of XTRO 1945 confines.

You can get a lot of unforeseen consequences if you do.  It is an all too easy path to opening up additional odd interactions.

[RifleMech]

You only need a spreadsheet if you play with multiple types of armor.

And all kinds of armors are in use from BAR-2 to BAR-10. And then there's specialty armors which are going to have additional effects depending on the weapon used against them.

Like I said caution must be taken with applying XTRO 1945 information outside of XTRO 1945 confines.

You can get a lot of unforeseen consequences if you do.  It is an all too easy path to opening up additional odd interactions.

Problem is that we had all of those before XTRO:1945. XTRO:1945 didn't change any of them. In fact it just shows how weird some of those rulings are.
For example the M4 Sheman Tank's best weapon against a Mech becomes it's machine guns because it's 75mm main gun doesn't do any damage. Meanwhile the older WWI FT-17s are effective against Mechs because both the MG and the 37mm versions are effective against Mechs. It turns history up on its head so that the main tanks that were used are now the ones least effective.

[monbvol]

Problem is that we had all of those before XTRO:1945. XTRO:1945 didn't change any of them. In fact it just shows how weird some of those rulings are.
For example the M4 Sheman Tank's best weapon against a Mech becomes it's machine guns because it's 75mm main gun doesn't do any damage. Meanwhile the older WWI FT-17s are effective against Mechs because both the MG and the 37mm versions are effective against Mechs. It turns history up on its head so that the main tanks that were used are now the ones least effective.

True we've had odd interactions long before XTRO 1945 but if you read too much into what it says or apply some of it's concepts outside XTRO 1945 it adds more.

To be honest there are a lot of things to this BAR system in general that on the surface seem like good ideas but once you do start digging into the interactions start making me wonder if the whole system is more trouble than it is worth.

[RifleMech]

True we've had odd interactions long before XTRO 1945 but if you read too much into what it says or apply some of it's concepts outside XTRO 1945 it adds more.

To be honest there are a lot of things to this BAR system in general that on the surface seem like good ideas but once you do start digging into the interactions start making me wonder if the whole system is more trouble than it is worth.

Like WWII Aircraft actually having half the speed they would normally?

I like the BAR system but it can get complicated under AToW.

[monbvol]

Actually if you read the section more closely it says aircraft of XTRO 1945 move half as fast as Age of War counterparts and were given 1 thrust point for every 100 kph.  The approximation of 250 meters for each thrust point in a ten second turn does leave it a little short of that figure(works out to 90 kph).  So they actually move pretty close to what they should.

This is still a huge fudging of things though to make the units listed at all playable though and doesn't do a lot to represent how much at the mercy of an Age of War CV or ASF such planes would be.

And BAR I'm finding a fair few odd interactions outside AToW that are giving me headaches no matter how rules questions I've posted pan out.

[RifleMech]

Actually if you read the section more closely it says aircraft of XTRO 1945 move half as fast as Age of War counterparts and were given 1 thrust point for every 100 kph.  The approximation of 250 meters for each thrust point in a ten second turn does leave it a little short of that figure(works out to 90 kph).  So they actually move pretty close to what they should.

Which means that they move half as fast as a "modern" battletech unit. That or "modern" units move twice as fast. Either way a Mustang isn't going to catch up to a Mosquito Radar Plane. In fact there's airships that the Mustang couldn't catch.

This is still a huge fudging of things though to make the units listed at all playable though and doesn't do a lot to represent how much at the mercy of an Age of War CV or ASF such planes would be.

Sure. They couldn't be built without some fudging of the rules. Even with the fudging though they're pretty much targets for modern planes.

And BAR I'm finding a fair few odd interactions outside AToW that are giving me headaches no matter how rules questions I've posted pan out.

Other than Rifles and Infantry Weapons what interactions are those?

[Daryk]

Indeed, what interactions?  I'm still firmly of the opinion the BAR system has the potential to be the E=mc² of BattleTech.

[monbvol]

Just in TW I found a potential headache from AP ammunition interactions.

On page 207 in the example there is a mention of AP ammunition halving the BAR but this isn't listed under AP ammunition on page 206 under the AP ammunition paragraph.

Depending on how that ruling comes down that may raise questions about what happens in certain circumstances.

Especially if you start adding in Patchwork armor rules.

A BAR 10 Support Vehicle with the Armored Chassis modification is supposed to be immune to penetrating hits but if you patchwork on say BAR 7 armor and get struck by an AC-5's AP round or a Large Laser?

I'll admit I'm having trouble parsing what exactly is supposed to happen in such a situation.

[Daryk]

Halving BAR sounds like one of those things that would work better with the AToW BAR system...

[monbvol]

Yeah but the wording is super weird in the example and like I said no mention is actually made in the AP ammunition section on page 206.

I'll go ahead and post the section I'm talking about for ease of reference:

[quote author =Total Warfare page 207]
If, on the other hand, the Support Vehicle were struck by
an AC/5 using armor-piercing rounds, it would be forced to
make a critical hit check regardless of its BAR (see ArmorPiercing Ammunition, p. 206). If it had a BAR of less than 10,
the vehicle would add a +2 modifier to this check.
If, on the other hand, the Support Vehicle were struck by
an AC/5 using armor-piercing rounds, the vehicle would be
treated as if it had a BAR of 4 (7 / 2 = 3.5, rounding up to
4) rather than 7 for purposes of determining penetrating
critical hits. Both hits might do critical damage because the
autocannon’s damage points exceed the unit’s effective BAR,
even though together the two autocannon hits would only
eliminate 10 of the Support Vehicle’s 12 armor points.[/quote]

I'm honestly thinking there was a rules change at some point that didn't get applied to the example and how that gets ruled can change a few things.