Help me build a Tamar Jaeger company

[worktroll]

So I'm considering building a battalion for the Tamar Jaegers, armed forces of the Tamar Pact in the IlClan era.

I've got the following 'Mech minis in hand, waiting on delivery, or waiting on the KS:

Code: [Select]

'Mech Size
Firestarter 1
Incubus 1
Locust 1
Spider 1
Valkyrie 1
Wasp 1
Bushwacker 2
Chameleon 2
Griffin 2
Phoenix Hawk 2
Starslayer 2
Vulcan 2
Archer 3
Hellbringer 3
Ostroc 3
Quickdraw 3
Rifleman 3
Atlas 4
Highlander 4
Longbow 4
Nightstar 4
Regent 4
Thunder Hawk 4
Victor 4
Zeus 4
Obviously they'll be limited to era-available configs as determined by the MUL for Tamar Pact. The challenge is: Build me three lances, which work together well.

I tend strongly to flavour & faction relevance, so please don't just pick all the assaults. Lyrans - and ex-Lyrans, as well - are also known for being flexible, and using light and medium designs to great advantage.

And it is not necessary to field a command lance. Not opposed, but not a design goal.

So, hit me with your best shots!

Thanks in advance.

[worktroll]

And if it helps you think, I can pick the combat vehicle company from the following, either in stock (mainly MW:DA minis), or arriving in the KS:

Shandra (4)
Yasha (4)
Condor (4)
SM1 (2)
Manticore (4)
Schrek (4)
Ontos (4)
Scimitar II (4)

[Metallgewitter]

No Battlemaster or Onager? Those are Mechs the Pact can actual produce in the Ilclan era

[worktroll]

Like I said, this is based on minis I have, or am waiting on delivery for. A Battlemaster would mean I'd have to buy an AGoAC box, and an Onager would have to come from IWM with overseas shipping, neither of which are on the budget plan at the moment.

Absent those two, what designs would you use, from the above?

[17thRecon]

I’ll give it a shot, just to start discussion:

Lance1:
1. Zeus
2. Longbow
3. Archer
4. Valkyrie
Lance 2:
1. Atlas
2. Ostroc
3. Bushwacker
4. Chameleon
Lance 3:
1. Rifleman
2. Quickdraw
3. Vulcan
4. Firestarter

[worktroll]

Okay, interesting - mind if I explore the reasoning behind them? It does have a very classic old-school FASA feel to it.

1st lance seems organised around fire support. Lots of LRMs there. But can the Valkyrie really contribute, or even survive, the weight of opposing firepower?

2nd Lance seems pretty classic battle troopers. But would the Atlas slow things down too much?

3rd Lance: what's the reasoning for this combination?

And overall, how do you see the lances cooperating?

[CitizenErased]

Alright, here's what I came up with:

Code: [Select]

Assault Lance:
Atlas AS8-S Sniper
Regent D Sniper
Highlander HGN-732b Sniper
Quickdraw QKD-5Mr Skirmisher

Fire Support Lance:
Archer ARC-4M2 Missile Boat
Longbow LGB-14Q Missile Boat
Bushwacker BSW-X4 Sniper
Griffin GRF-6S Sniper

Probe Lance:
Phoenix Hawk PXH-9 Striker
Vulcan VUL-7T Scout
Vixen Striker
Starslayer STY-3Dr Sniper
I feel like this is pretty straightforward; the assault lance is capable of hammering via direct fire or indirect, with the Atlas and Regent as the anchor, the Highlander able to backstop either, and the Quickdraw serving as bodyguard but still able to chuck LRMs if nobody needs stabbing. The fire support lance has plenty of missiles, but both the Bushwacker and Griffin can either bodyguard for the bigger pair or reposition to create a crossfire, depending on opportunities and cover. And then the probe lance can kite, scout, or mop up as needed. And these fit AS formations, which you didn't ask for, but since you listed them by AS size I figured it couldn't hurt to use that as a framework. Let me know what you think!

[17thRecon]

Okay, interesting - mind if I explore the reasoning behind them? It does have a very classic old-school FASA feel to

1st lance seems organised around fire support. Lots of LRMs there. But can the Valkyrie really contribute, or even survive, the weight of opposing firepower?

2nd Lance seems pretty classic battle troopers. But would the Atlas slow things down too much?

3rd Lance: what's the reasoning for this combination?

And overall, how do you see the lances cooperating?

1st, admittedly, I made my selection based on their stock 3025 (or original TRO) variants. I also didn’t build it for straight tabletop, more campaign (so not paticularly optimized) and fun just to try and generate discussion.

1st Lance you were pretty spot on re: Fire Support/LRMs. You said you didn’t want a command Lance, so it’s hybrid. Zeus is commander/bodyguard. Longbow and Archer lob LRMs, Valkyrie contributes to LRMs,  but can also spot and/or harass if needed.

2nd Lance was the Atlas being the anchor while the other three ran out, skirmish and funnel the opponent to the Atlas.

3rd: reasoning: 1st the Firestarter is just cool. 2nd, the Vulcan is even cooler. 3rd, combined, they cover anti infantry/vehicles. Then they’d have fire support from the rifleman and skirmish assistance from the Quickdraw.

Lastly, overall, I built it think of lances and units that could “shoot themselves in”. Either the mechs had weapons for all ranges (Zeus, Atlas) or had Lance partners that could cover them as they closed. At least that was the thought behind it. Originally I was trying to have all of the mechs selected have LRMs, but couldn’t quite design one that worked for me.

As the discussion goes on, I may try again. This is the first time I posted something like this. It was fun 🤩

[worktroll]

Thanks for the insight, 17thRecon, and please feel free to try again!

Yes, CitizenErased, I'm used to the AS conventions for force building, but using them here as a framing device for understanding, not a hard limit. But they do work.

Side note: I build combined-arms battalions with minis. And then paint them in a canon scheme which I can accomplish. It's my thing. And then use typically a few lances/platoons in AS games.

I get an awful lot of enjoyment from spending the time designing the respective companies and lances/platoons, so I'm really happy if others do to! And I get to see other ways of thinking. I probably woudn't deploy the Valkyrie in that heavyweight lance, but the reasoning for the third lance in 17thRecon's proposal is a) something I wouldn't have thought of, and b) really interesting!

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Battle/Assault/Command:
Regent (Prime/B)
Zeus (11S)
Thunder Hawk (7Y)
Rifleman (5D at some point was built on pandora)

Probe/Striker:
Incubus (Std, jade falcon leftovers/dealing with AML)
Phoenix Hawk (9)
Vulcan (7T)
Firestarter (Mirage II)

I wanted the new rec guide spider in here but it looks like the Pact doesn’t have it. Incubus can keep up with the rest without JJ in most terrain so not a huge loss.


Battle/Fire:
Hellbringer (H but any sniper variant will do [im not gonna recheck every combo and what it qualifies for])
Chameleon (8V)
Bushwacker (X4)
Starslayer (3Dr)

I also used the AS force building to get lances that way.
Tamar Rising says the 1st Jagers get 1/4 on a clan table plus the clan mechs are in the Pact MUL. It also talks about relations of some sort with the AML, plus a deal to get Clan tech Crossbows (I’d rather have that in lance one than the Rifleman but gotta work with what you have available).

First lance is god old wall of steel, plus a rifleman that is still going somehow. It also has a probe with that Zeus variant which is nice for a few in game things but mostly in-universe benefit. I love seeing your modifications so you can pick the B Regent rather than prime here.

Second lance is mostly jumpy, the Incubus ‘slows’ the lance, but unless it’s super broken terrain it will stay close. Plus it has clan guns to provide some ranged support. No electronics kinda bothers me in the fast lance, but it should have guns to fight out of it. No mods here 

Third lance I picked the H specifically for two reasons; see a mod and another probe. Starslayer 3dr gives a big threat gun and some ecm coverage, plus a mod. Chameleon and Bushwacker are stock but solid. 2JJ and 2 ground bound mechs in this lance. I think it’s a solid pairing. Plus Helbringer gets some clan tech in there too.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

How is the Incubus/Vixen slowing down Lance 3?  It's fast enough that it walks at the same speed most of the rest of the lance runs.

[worktroll]

No jump jets? But the walking speed does indeed help compensate.

Currently enjoying your proposals, Kerfuffin. Although I would take into consideration the mods required - sorry CitizenErased, the Regent D looks very nice but a very hard mod. The B will need new arms, and some major torso surgery. And the battle/fire lance has a Hellbringer, so it rates highly anyway :) Odd to see an H model as a sniper ...

Keep'em coming, folks!

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Without variants your big Lance should be:
- Atlas
- Thunder Hawk
- Regent
- Zeus

That SCREAMS Lyran (and therefore Tamar) plus their are some good modern variants of the Atlas and Zeus, the Regent is an Sea Fox Omni mimicking old school Lyran Designs, and you can’t say no to triple Gauss Rifles in any age

The other two lances are tough.

You don’t have a good heavy Lance IMO. Yes I’m biased against Quickdraws, but the other mechs don’t work well together. You MIGHT consider as a Fire support Lance:
- Hellbringer
- Archer
- Rifleman
- Ostroc
- Longbow

But that’s what half your assault mechs do and do better. These heavies are for the most part under armored.

You have three medium/ light lances based on speed

You have your 6/9:
- Phoenix Hawk
- Firestarter
- Vulcan
- Wasp

They’re a bit light but good for scouting, harassment, and I guess anti-infantry support?

You have your 5/8:
- Griffin
- Bushwacker (designate it as a Gauntlet maybe?)
- Starslayer
- Chameleon
- Hellbringer
- Ostroc
- Valkyrie

I’d pick the top four as a mid battle Lance: your troopers and jacks of all trades. The variety of weapons, jump jets, and average speed are good. I personally would consider the Hellbringer in there as the commanders mech but it’s not needed. I’d avoid the Valkyrie because it doesn’t bring much.

Then you have your fast boys and gals:
- Incubus
- Locust
- Spider
- MISSING

Yes their movement speeds are all over the place but it’s a light Lance. The worse problem is none of your other mechs fit that missing spot because they’re too slow! Anything else you could scrape to fit that last spot with a speed of 8/12 or over (or even a flying 7/11/X) would fill out the Lance nicely.


OVERALL



I’d use the Assaults as the command Lance hands down. I’d then use the 5/8 battle, 6/9 medium/light, and the fast lights as my company. A bunch of heavier tanks working with a more maneuverable force I think would work. And then consider a Fire support company later on with a bunch of LRM Carriers and that Fire Support Lance.

Variants coming soon TM

[Natasha Kerensky]

Tamar Jaegers Company

Fire Lance
Regent Prime
Longbow -12C
Zeus -11S
Archer -7S

Shock Lance
Rifleman IIC (Rifleman mini)
Highlander -734
Nightstar -9SS
Victor -10D

Strike Lance
Hellbringer M
Griffin -6S
Starslayer -3D
Gauntlet B (Bushwacker mini)

Cavalry Lance
Condor (Ultra)
Condor (Ultra)
Condor (Ultra)
Condor (Ultra)

Canon sources design claim or support producion of a few of these designs in the Tamar Pact:  Archer -7S (Arcturus Arms built the primitive version), Condor Ultra (Red Devil Industries on Pandora), and Rifleman IIC (refit by Red Devil Industries on Pandora).  Everything else is a Lyran product, a survivor from the FedCom Civil War, or captured from the Falcons.

The Fire Lance can throw 125 LRMs.  Although each Condor can inflict 35 points of damage in its own right, a Condor can forgo weapons fire in favor of guiding all 125 LRMs indirectly onto a juicy target.  The Regent doesn’t throw LRMs but serves as a bodyguard for the Fire Lance instead, throwing three Clan-grade ER large lasers at long-range and deterring fast-movers with its LB-20.

The Shock Lance is a close combat formation, carrying two Ultra-20s, two LB-20s, and four Clan-grade pulse large lasers on all-jump capable platforms.  The Fire Lance and Shock Lance are both 3/4 to 4/6 speed and designed to present a dilemma for opponents — face 155 points of LRM and ER large laser damage at long-range or 120 points of AC/20 and pulse large laser damage at close range.  The Shock Lance obviously stays in front of the Fire Lance but under its protective LRM umbrella.

The Strike Lance is significantly faster than the Fire and Shock Lances with 5/8 movement.  It carries mostly long-ranged weapons.  Like the 9/14 Cavalry Lance, the Strike Lance can be held in reserve to plug or exploit holes or it can work its way around the flanks of the enemy to present opponents with positional dilemmas.

I tried to avoid vulnerable Spheroid XLEs where possible — like by switching the Bushwacker to a Gauntlet.  I think only Longbow and Nightstar have XLEs.

Hope this helps.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'd recommend the 7C Archer over the 7S.  And the Rifleman C 3 instead of the IIC if you don't want to be subbing a mini.

[worktroll]

The Fire Lance and Strike Lance are good, NatashaKerensky. The Shock Lance is another assault lance, and I do try and avoid Lyran stereotypes most of the time.

As per the Rifleman IIC and Gauntlet, it's my thing to 'accurise' the minis - so unless I was going the vismod route with them, they're out. I did convert a metal Bushwacker to a Gauntlet years ago - may look at whether it gets a repaint (would probably not survive paint stripper without needing complete rework).

The Condors are a good linchpin for the armour; how do people feel about an armour company of Ontoses, Condors, and either Yashas or Scimitar IIs for the light end? (It's great that the KS vehicles look like they should scale well with the smaller MW:DA minis I have and enjoy using!)

[Natasha Kerensky]

Tamar Jagers Company

Fire Lance
Zeus -11S
Longbow -14C
Archer -7S
Rifleman C3

Shock Lance
Victor -10D
Ostroc -4K
Quickdraw -9G
Bushwacker -L1

Strike Lance
Hellbringer M
Griffin -6S
Starslayer -3D
P-Hawk -7S

Support Lance
Valkyrie -QS5
Manticore (HPPC)
Manticore (HPPC)
Manticore (HPPC)

Cavalry Lance
Incubus
Condor (Ultra)
Condor (Ultra)
Condor (Ultra)

Scout Lance
Locust C
Shandra
Shandra
Shandra

This is another take that avoids all the 3/5 Lyran wall-of-steel assaults.  Like the prior company, the 4/6 Fire Lance provides a long-range/LRM umbrella for the jumpy/MASCy, close-combat Shock Lance, while the long-ranged 5/8 Strike Lance works the flanks.  But without those assaults, it loses some Lyran flavor, especially in the Shock Lance, where the Bushwacker is the only native Lyran design.  Probably not as dangerous or survivable as the other company in most BT games, but on the other hand, I think this totally avoids Spheroid XLEs.

I went with Manticores to complement the Condors as Defiance makes Manticores, while the Ontos and Schreck are foreign builds.  Except for the Condor, all the faster vehicles are also foreign.  But I went with FWL/Wolf Shandras for a third lance for some wheeled variety and to avoid designs with lots of Combine flavor like the Scimitar II, SM1, and Yasha.  I also threw a lighter mech from the list with roughly matching speed into each vehicle lance to stiffen them.

FWIW...

[Kerfuffin(925)]

The Fire Lance and Strike Lance are good, NatashaKerensky. The Shock Lance is another assault lance, and I do try and avoid Lyran stereotypes most of the time.

As per the Rifleman IIC and Gauntlet, it's my thing to 'accurise' the minis - so unless I was going the vismod route with them, they're out. I did convert a metal Bushwacker to a Gauntlet years ago - may look at whether it gets a repaint (would probably not survive paint stripper without needing complete rework).

The Condors are a good linchpin for the armour; how do people feel about an armour company of Ontoses, Condors, and either Yashas or Scimitar IIs for the light end? (It's great that the KS vehicles look like they should scale well with the smaller MW:DA minis I have and enjoy using!)

I like the Scimitars, ECM lets them do some EWAR which depending on your mech choices, the unit would be lacking. The Ontos offer a lot of damage, and depending on the variants (and your desire to mod) can do it at range. Condors got lots of cool variants with the RecGuides that are red devil specials so that fits nicely with the theme.

[worktroll]

Thanks all for the input! I've gone & taken bits I like from all over, and this is what I'm currently working with:

Code: [Select]

Tamar Jaegers (IlClan, Tamar Pact)
Fire/Direct Fire/Assault Lance
Regent B
Zeus 11S
Archer ARC-7S
Thunder Hawk TDK-7KMA
Battle/Fire Lance
Hellbringer H
Chameleon CLN-7W
Bushwacker ERL
Starslayer STY-3DR
Recon Lance
Phoenix Hawk PXH-7S
Firestarter FS9-N
Vulcan VT-7T
Valkyrie VLK-QDD
Battle/Direct Fire Platoon
Manticore HPPC
Manticore HPPC
Manticore HPPC
Manticore HPPC
Striker/Pursuit Platoon
Condor Ultra
Condor Ultra
Condor Ultra
Condor Ultra
Light Recon Platoon
Scimitar II std
Scimitar II std
Scimitar II std
Scimitar II std
Assault Platoon
Ravager Std
Ravager Std
Ravager Std
  Ravager Std
Light Recon Platoon
  Fenrir MPL
  Fenrir MPL
  Fenrir MPL
  Fenrir MPL
Inf
  Mechanised Inf
Inf
  Mechanised Inf
Transport
  Maxim II ECM

Some minor changes - the Archer 7C wasn't available to Tamar Pact, the Chameleon 8V looked a little messy for conversion, and I swapped a Wasp for a Valkyrie because a) kept the Wasp for another build, and b) used up my sole remaining Valkyrie.

And of course, the T-Hawk 7KMA, because who doesn't need Arrow IV, especially when the Condors have TAG :)

Thoughts, comments, questions all welcomed!

[17thRecon]

Firestarter FS9-N and Vulcan VT-7T! Plasma love. Great models. You did a good job making that Recon Lance have that Steinerish feel.

[worktroll]

Had to include the Mirage II - that was one of my RecGuide writeups (not the stats, just the fluff)

[MarauderD]

Read over your final unit and it looks great.  Manticores for firepower and Condors for speed look perfect.  Question:  perhaps another Maxim II for Battlearmor transportation?

[worktroll]

The dogs can walk ;)

Longer explanation - given I'm building all these with minis, I have a number of workarounds so I'm not spending 50% of my budget on APCs. Mechanised & motorised infantry is one; not providing organic transport for 'fast' BA (like Fenrirs, Raches, or Sylphs) is another 'cheat mode' ;)

Unfortunately I've run out of DA Manteuffels; there's an IFV version with IT8, and of course being omni, another squad on the handrails, which would have been perfect here.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Any reason you're using Fenrirs instead of Fenrir IIs?  I guess it does make logistics easier since you only need to worry about getting them to the objective and not getting them back.

[EPG]

That manticore lance backed by condors looks extremely unpleasant to run into.  I think I’d rather take on one of the mech lances than a lance of HPPC Manticores. 

[worktroll]

Fenrir IIs are superior, agreed. I've made them before - adding some armour on the front & front legs, and always replace the twin icecream dispensers the Fenrirs come with. But this time I decided to go with the fast & fancy base versions, and another Light Recon lance is handy - eg. on forested maps, Maneuvering Ace comes in very nice!

My choices are idiosyncratic, agreed - but they all revolve around the physical build. Then, once built, they do on occasions take to the Alpha Strike battlefield on the planet Ping Pong Table ;)

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Nice looking group. Too bad about the transports, but gotta have some sort of a budget  (I’ve seen your Brian Cache)

I had fun with the little thought experiment and mu erosion helped. Looking forward to seeing it painted

[worktroll]

The queue currently looks like:

5th MacCarron's Armored Cavalry (mainly done; needs 7 minis from the KS for completion)
7th Raven Regulars, Oclan, ER (mainly done; needs 3 minis from the KS)
Niops Militia, Dark Age (primed & based, needs 5 minis from the KS)

The rest in the queue need from 30% to 70% from the KS for completion, and are sitting in little boxes: note this order isn't fixed, and can change based on paint availability & my mood.

Black Heart Roses (Merc, Jihad) Assorted
1st Covenant Guards, FWL, ilClan
IX Legion, Merc, ILC
Royal Guard, LA, FCCW
39th Avalon Hussars, AFFS, FCCW
The Battle Corps. Merc, DA
1st Falcon Sentinels, JFR, ILC
1st Oberon Guards, Perp, CI
3rd Dieron Regulars, DCMS, LT
1st Shin Legion, CCAF, SW
Tamar Jaegers, IlC

Helps to have a plan. a Grand Plan!