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BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Warpimp on 23 May 2014, 21:25:01

Title: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Warpimp on 23 May 2014, 21:25:01
I've been re-reading a lot of early clan invasion stuff and as far as I understand the things Ulric did seem so obviously traitorous, I don't know how he got away with it for so long.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Foxx Ital on 23 May 2014, 22:19:08
he could back it up with his skills in a battlemech?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Terrace on 23 May 2014, 22:42:49
The charges of genocide that were leveled at him just before the Refusal War were entirely baseless, and were brought up purely because of jealous butthurt on the part of the Jade Falcons and the Smoke Jaguars for doing so much better than them during Operation Revival. His success in the early Invasion was due to a few factors.

1. His Clan fought their way through the FRR, which put up less resistance to the Invading Clans than the FedCom and Dracs did. The Green Turkeys and Smoked Kitties practically reveled in the tougher opposition they got, even with the drastically increased casualties they took, which required replacement Warriors to be shipped in from the Homeworlds.

2. The Wolves shamelessly used Inner Sphere-built war material to supplement their supplies. The Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars stubbornly insisted on shipping their supplies in from the Homeworlds. Only stubborn pride will make a MechWarrior wait for months for the right widget needed to fix up their 'Mech when there's another perfectly serviceable 'Mech available. This means the Wolves often leapt ahead to take their objectives, which made the Falcons and Jaguars look overly cautious.

3. The Wolves were more willing to accept IS-born MechWarriors into their ranks and make use of their experience with Inner Sphere culture, which meant that cultural friction was significantly lessened. Plus, that's another Warrior you don't need to ship in from the Homeworlds.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Panthros on 23 May 2014, 23:21:35
I've been re-reading ablotbof early clan invasion stuff and as far as I understand the things Ulric did seem so obviously traitorous, I don't know how he got away with it for so long.

As a Warden of Clan Wolf, he was a hero, my hero ;)  As a Crusader outside of Clan Wolf, the jealous success of Clan Wolf could build a traitorous point of view.  It is all in your outlook.  The thing I remind everyone was the Clan Council would vote on many things so you cannot blame Ulric for everything.  The arrogance and short shortsightedness of the other clans caused them to lose Tukayyid.  I love the gamble.  The clans were all about using the least equipment and warriors to win a battle and that proxy, if won, would have saved countless warriors and equipment.  I doubt Comstar would have given up Terra if they lost but that is another topic for another day lol.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 24 May 2014, 00:08:28
Indeed, Ulric Kerensky saved the Clans.  He said so himself ;)

Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: A. Lurker on 24 May 2014, 01:03:44
I'd say that by and large, no, Ulric wasn't a traitor for one simple reason: you can only betray people who actually trust you in the first place. ;)

(If anything, he comes across as shadier later during the Refusal War, when he's basically willing to wipe out part of his own Clan to maintain the truce. But in the early invasion? Nah.)
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Mohammed As`Zaman Bey on 24 May 2014, 01:08:06
 The other Clans failed and somebody had to be blamed. Ulric was the first choice.

  The excuse used for failure was that Ulric left the other Clans to make their own choices instead of ordering them not to be stupid.

"We were stupid because Ulric didn't order us to be smart."
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: David CGB on 24 May 2014, 01:32:08
The charges of genocide that were leveled at him just before the Refusal War were entirely baseless, and were brought up purely because of jealous butthurt on the part of the Jade Falcons and the Smoke Jaguars for doing so much better than them during Operation Revival.
aff, As a Ghost Bear I would agree with this whole statement.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: cold1 on 24 May 2014, 12:13:41
Let me start with this.  I don't like Ulric, at all.  His only redeeming quality is he drove Gargoyles a whole lot.  I don't like what the did to the clans or his clan.

That said, he's not a traitor at all.  The crusaders were not smart in their play to let him lead.  They put him in charge then tried to blame him for their failures.  That's not how the clans work.

I was a big Jaguar fan.  Fun to play on the table top but painful to follow in the fiction.  " He said what now??   You're gonna do what???"  It was maddening. 

Ulric was a good character too.  Very polarizing.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Alan Grant on 24 May 2014, 13:38:31
Yeah the Crusaders force the Wolves to participate in the invasion. Then the Wolves beat them at that. Then they force Ulric to become ilKhan (because they thought his Khan spot would be filled by a Crusader Wolf and that making him IlKhan would kinda sideline him, forcing him to be bound by the Grand Council's decision-making and voting) and he outsmarted them on that. Then he proceeds to put plans in place to support his Warden agenda, such as turning the Refusal War into an all-out conflict....and he largely succeeded. He ordered Wolf Crusaders/supremacists to their deaths in the Refusal War, because they were warriors and they followed their Khan, even then, under those circumstances. You follow your commanding officer, you obey those orders, even if those orders put you at grave risk.

Ulric had an agenda, but he played within the letter of the law. He took every hand he was dealt and turned it into an advantage.

I'm sure there are individuals within the Clans who label Ulric a traitor. But that's not a formal status, that's a "I don't like what he did" reputation thing. Among some fanatical Wardens throughout the Clans he is probably revered.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Stormlion1 on 25 May 2014, 08:22:29
Going by the Warden philosophy he wasn't a trader but the prevailing opinion of the Crusader Philosophy put them into a Fifteen year wait until they could invade again. Three generations of warriors would come and go during that time. So this made him a traitor to them, if not the Clans as a whole. Ulric wasn't a traitor to the Clans themselves, just to three generations of warriors who wouldn't get the right to continue the invasion.
Now breaking up his Clan in two rather than fighting the Jade Falcons into the ground was pretty despicable. He could have beaten the Falcons in the Refusal War.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 25 May 2014, 09:50:38
Going by the Warden philosophy he wasn't a trader but the prevailing opinion of the Crusader Philosophy put them into a Fifteen year wait until they could invade again. Three generations of warriors would come and go during that time. So this made him a traitor to them, if not the Clans as a whole. Ulric wasn't a traitor to the Clans themselves, just to three generations of warriors who wouldn't get the right to continue the invasion.
Now breaking up his Clan in two rather than fighting the Jade Falcons into the ground was pretty despicable. He could have beaten the Falcons in the Refusal War.

He was putting his clan through the crucible, trying to cleanse it. It should be noted that he didn't send the crusaders simply to die; he had the balls to lead them from the front; I'm sure he was an elite grade MechWarrior if he became Khan, but putting a master strategist like him in a cockpit seems like a waste in most cases. And thanks to his command abilities the Wolves almost won, thus removing the centuries old falcon thorn from their side. Seriously, the Wolves are the descendants of Kerensky, and the Falcons were the descendants of Kerensky's crazy stalker; I wouldn't be surprised if the first falcon khans had a wall covered with pictures of  Kerensky with his eyes burned out. The only reason the Wolves didn't won was because the Falcon khan chickened out of a one-on-one duel and brought a crapload of LRM carriers to assassinate Ulric. The fact that falcons had to resort to cheating to kill him, is a victory in itself; it cemented his moral superiority, and put the falcons on the path that ends with Malvina.

Some blame him for being an OP Marty Sue; but average Joe Six-pack don't become ilKhans...
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 25 May 2014, 10:13:16
He was putting his clan through the crucible, trying to cleanse it. It should be noted that he didn't send the crusaders simply to die; he had the balls to lead them from the front; I'm sure he was an elite grade MechWarrior if he became Khan, but putting a master strategist like him in a cockpit seems like a waste in most cases. And thanks to his command abilities the Wolves almost won, thus removing the centuries old falcon thorn from their side. Seriously, the Wolves are the descendants of Kerensky, and the Falcons were the descendants of Kerensky's crazy stalker; I wouldn't be surprised if the first falcon khans had a wall covered with pictures of  Kerensky with his eyes burned out. The only reason the Wolves didn't won was because the Falcon khan chickened out of a one-on-one duel and brought a crapload of LRM carriers to assassinate Ulric. The fact that falcons had to resort to cheating to kill him, is a victory in itself; it cemented his moral superiority, and put the falcons on the path that ends with Malvina.

Some blame him for being an OP Marty Sue; but average Joe Six-pack don't become ilKhans...

Ulric Kerensky wasn't simply an elite MechWarrior, he piloted a Gargoyle Prime.  That would make him an epic-level bravo and total show-off.  Marty Stu accusations are probably warranted.   ;D

But in spite of my own rhetoric, he was one of my favorite Clan characters because of his "just as planned" factor.  A warrior and a trickster all wrapped into one being named Kerensky.  His skill at Clan politics and ability to walk through the fire unscathed, whether in a mech or in the grand council, made him a hero even before his self-sacrifice (and near triumph) against the Jade Falcons.

He was no more a traitor than any of the Crusaders were.  I think that was the point of the text, actually.   
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 25 May 2014, 17:43:53
Seriously, the Wolves are the descendants of Kerensky, and the Falcons were the descendants of Kerensky's crazy stalker; I wouldn't be surprised if the first falcon khans had a wall covered with pictures of  Kerensky with his eyes burned out.

That would be the Vipers not the Falcons.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: SteveRestless on 25 May 2014, 17:54:02
Ulric Kerensky wasn't simply an elite MechWarrior, he piloted a Gargoyle Prime.  That would make him an epic-level bravo and total show-off.  Marty Stu accusations are probably warranted.   ;D

Hop on irc/megamek sometime and ask me to show you the evil that can be perpetrated with a Gargoyle Prime  >:D
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Vlads Fangs on 25 May 2014, 18:08:35
Yes he is, he was our Malvina Hazen,a true self hating psychopath!I am so gratified he totally failed at what he attempted, our New Empire is built over his grave (not literally) I just hope whatever purgatory he toils in he can see what our new Empire is doing.Alaric can join him once we get Terra.LOL
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Panthros on 25 May 2014, 22:31:00
I love reading people's responses.  You can see their warden or crusader side come out.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Warpimp on 26 May 2014, 12:22:31
With Ulric I always felt that participating in an invasion and then hamstringing the success of such an invasion seems like creating a meat grinder. In addition, essentially destroying your Clan as an actual Clan and turning them into a pet state of a faction that is your enemy also seems traitorous.

Take Tukayyid as an example. The only reason for the trial was to give the Inner Sphere a chance to halt the invasion and prepare better. For what? The only possible endstate you could predict would be a more even, and thus bloodier, war in the future.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 26 May 2014, 12:32:37
Who did he betray?  He led the Wolves to the greatest conquest they'd ever known, and did his best to advise the other clans on how to do like the Wolves had done.  If they'd followed his advice, the other clans would have won on Tukayyid just as the Wolves did, and the Clans would have claimed Terra.  You can't betray people by giving them good advice.  If anything, Ulric's enemies betrayed themselves by not taking his advice.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 26 May 2014, 15:10:33
With Ulric I always felt that participating in an invasion and then hamstringing the success of such an invasion seems like creating a meat grinder. In addition, essentially destroying your Clan as an actual Clan and turning them into a pet state of a faction that is your enemy also seems traitorous.

Pretty much.  The actual charges themselves were baseless and just served as an excuse to remove him from power.  Had the charges had real merit, the Clans as a whole would have gone a lot further than simply stripping him of office.  Once he was busted back to Star Colonel, however, the Jade Falcons and the Grand Council were more than happy to resume the invasion and leave Ulric alone.

That being said, the man did play puppet master and manipulate everything he could up to, and including, Turkayyid to ensure that the Clan invasion failed.  From a Warden perspective, he was doing what was right to stop the invasion.  From a Crusader, it was traitorous.  I tend to fall more on the 'traitor' side personally, and while I do prefer the 'Crusader' philosophy, it's not bias (at least I don't think so.  Ulric is probably one of my favorite characters as an aside).

Two of the reasons I consider his acts traitorous are:

1)  The man had been elected to the post of ilKhan and his role was to lead the invasion and not do his best to undermine it at every opportunity as he did.  His position was supposed to be one of impartiality and he was to act as the Khan of Khans.  Instead, he intentionally and knowingly harmed the other Clans either by (for example) putting enemies together in the same corridors, or manipulating them into making mistakes to suffer losses. 

2)  While it can be argued that he was forced into the ilKhan position (and didn't manipulate his way into it) and was thus not obligated to help the invasion succeed, Ulric and Clan Wolf had already attempted to prevent the invasion with a Trial of Refusal.  This is why Clan Wolf was given the FRR and was to 'spearhead' the invasion through the weakest corridor- as punishment for going against the Grand Council's decision and losing.  Under Clan law, the Invasion was 'proven' correct and morally just with Clan Wolf's loss in its Refusal.  Ulric and his Clan disagreed with the Invasion- they lawfully attempted to prove it was wrong, and failed to do so.  A Trial of Refusal is supposed to be the final say in the matter- and Ulric continued to act against the Grand Council's decision even after he had been proven wrong under the law.

 
Take Tukayyid as an example. The only reason for the trial was to give the Inner Sphere a chance to halt the invasion and prepare better. For what? The only possible endstate you could predict would be a more even, and thus bloodier, war in the future.

Ulric undermined Turkayyid to buy him time to further shut the Crusaders down.  The entire Refusal War was Ulric's doing- from manipulating Vlad into coming up with the charges with Marialle Radick (Ulric locked down Conal's Bloodname, taunted Vlad over being unable to attain it, and ensured Vlad would have to remove Ulric to obtain a Bloodname), to moving the charges from the Clan Wolf council to the Grand Council (as he knew the Jade Falcons would volunteer to prosecute) to having Natasha join Clan Wolf in as defenders on Ulric's behalf, to finally bidding the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons to ensure that the Trial would result in Clan Wolf's death.

Ulric's endgame was a crippled Jade Falcon that would be too busy fighting off trials of Absorption to ever be in shape to renew the invasion, with a united, purified (of Crusaders), and exiled Clan Wolf under Phelan and Vlad on Arc Royal to defend the Inner Sphere when 3067 came around.

I'm not sure if Ulric knew how badly the Jaguars were hurting, or if the Bears were going Warden.  It wouldn't surprise me if he did, as he was alive while the Bears were starting their move to the Inner Sphere.

In either case, without a strong Jade Falcon to lead a new invasion and the Clan of Kerensky exiled, the Clans would be in no shape to invade in '67.

It almost worked too... until Vlad found a way out of the genocide charges laid against Clan Wolf anyway.

EDIT:  The main reason I think he's a traitor though is the Refusal War:  His attempt to murder most of his Clan to cripple the Jade Falcons, and then have the rest exiled to the Inner Sphere with no path back to the Home Worlds is pretty traitorous.  All those Crusader Wolves died trying to defend the man who sent them to their deaths.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 26 May 2014, 15:24:16
With Ulric I always felt that participating in an invasion and then hamstringing the success of such an invasion seems like creating a meat grinder.
He didn't want to participate in the invasion, and everyone among the clans knew that from they one. They expected the wolves throw the trial for participating in the invasion, and would be dishonored; they were wrong. They expected the warden wolves to loiter in their cramped invasion corridor, doing the bare minimum; the Wolves outdid them all. They made Ulric ilkhan, in the hopes of marginalizing him and paving the way for a crusader wolf khan; they couldn't have been more wrong.

The interactions between Leo Showers and the council vs. UK always reminded of this (http://youtu.be/wZ8EnaGClRs)

In addition, essentially destroying your Clan as an actual Clan and turning them into a pet state of a faction that is your enemy also seems traitorous.
Take it up with Phelan. Personally, I'd have led my soon to be "Abjured" clan as far away from the invasion corridor, and go dominate some periphery nation like the marians, and build a power base, maybe even go the route of the foxes and start trading with clantech; being limited to half a planet (and taking responsibility for several systems) really hamstrung the exiles.

Take Tukayyid as an example.
Why? Tukayyid was a single unique event the likes of which would never repeat with the exception of the great refusal maybe. It's like saying the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a reasonable example of American foreign policy...

The only reason for the trial was to give the Inner Sphere a chance to halt the invasion and prepare better.
That really misunderstanding UK standard operating procedure. Ulric was always about crafting "win/win" scenarios, in which whatever outcome benefits his cause.
Losing Tukayyid stopped the invasion. Okay, warden cause as guardian of the IS is served. But what if the clans pulled their acts together and actually listened to him, and won? Would his plans simply evaporated? Would all his effort be undone? Nope.
Clans win the trial? Ulric is the ilkhan that brought this victory, and the wolves become the ilclan; Ulric is unshackled by the council and is free to lead the clans down the warden path unopposed.
So Ulric made sure the wolves did the best; Excuses along the like of "it was your responsibility to stop us from being idiots" is unworthy of a clanner, let alone a clan khan complaining a khan from a rival clan didn't tell him how to lead his touman...

The only possible endstate you could predict would be a more even, and thus bloodier, war in the future.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a utopian pacifistic society, where war is a thing of the past.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 26 May 2014, 16:11:06
That being said, the man did play puppet master and manipulate everything he could up to, and including, Turkayyid to ensure that the Clan invasion failed.  From a Warden perspective, he was doing what was right to stop the invasion.  From a Crusader, it was traitorous.  I tend to fall more on the 'traitor' side personally, and while I do prefer the 'Crusader' philosophy, it's not bias (at least I don't think so.  Ulric is probably one of my favorite characters as an aside).

He was a clan khan and practiced politics. So?
From a crusader view he's a traitor? Too bad UK was a warden then, and never pretended otherwise.
I'm sure Ulric would be glad the invasion failed, but he also tried to make sure that if the invasion succeeded the Wolves would "win" it.

Pretty much.  The actual charges themselves were baseless and just served as an excuse to remove him from power.  Had the charges had real merit, the Clans as a whole would have gone a lot further than simply stripping him of office.  Once he was busted back to Star Colonel, however, the Jade Falcons and the Grand Council were more than happy to resume the invasion and leave Ulric alone.

That being said, the man did play puppet master and manipulate everything he could up to, and including, Turkayyid to ensure that the Clan invasion failed.  From a Warden perspective, he was doing what was right to stop the invasion.  From a Crusader, it was traitorous.  I tend to fall more on the 'traitor' side personally, and while I do prefer the 'Crusader' philosophy, it's not bias (at least I don't think so.  Ulric is probably one of my favorite characters as an aside).

Two of the reasons I consider his acts traitorous are:

1)  The man had been elected to the post of ilKhan and his role was to lead the invasion and not do his best to undermine it at every opportunity as he did.  His position was supposed to be one of impartiality and he was to act as the Khan of Khans.  Instead, he intentionally and knowingly harmed the other Clans either by (for example) putting enemies together in the same corridors, or manipulating them into making mistakes to suffer losses. 
Impartial? :o ??? No ilkhan in the history of the clans, could ever be accused of being impartial, not even St.Nick.
2)  While it can be argued that he was forced into the ilKhan position (and didn't manipulate his way into it) and was thus not obligated to help the invasion succeed, Ulric and Clan Wolf had already attempted to prevent the invasion with a Trial of Refusal.  This is why Clan Wolf was given the FRR and was to 'spearhead' the invasion through the weakest corridor- as punishment for going against the Grand Council's decision and losing.  Under Clan law, the Invasion was 'proven' correct and morally just with Clan Wolf's loss in its Refusal.  Ulric and his Clan disagreed with the Invasion- they lawfully attempted to prove it was wrong, and failed to do so.  A Trial of Refusal is supposed to be the final say in the matter- and Ulric continued to act against the Grand Council's decision even after he had been proven wrong under the law.
A. "Ulric continued to act against the Grand Council's decision even after he had been proven wrong under the law.". Nope, not really. Under Ulric leadership the wolves were the most successful of the invading clans, which troubled the crusaders to no end, since the wolves were mere weeks from Terra; which is why ilkhan Showers shadowed Ulric and tried his best to slow the wolves with gratuitous "impartiality".

B. So it's OK for the crusader council and ilkhan to set the wolves up to fail, but when Ulric returns the favor it's suddenly "treason". Are you still claiming the crusaders weren't bias?

Ulric undermined Turkayyid to buy him time to further shut the Crusaders down.
Objection! Baseless conjecture. Especially since victory at Tukayyid would've echieved warden supremacy with the Wolves as ilclan and Ulric as the supreme leader of the clans, with the crusaders unable to oppose him.

The entire Refusal War was Ulric's doing- from manipulating Vlad into coming up with the charges with Marialle Radick (Ulric locked down Conal's Bloodname, taunted Vlad over being unable to attain it, and ensured Vlad would have to remove Ulric to obtain a Bloodname), to moving the charges from the Clan Wolf council to the Grand Council (as he knew the Jade Falcons would volunteer to prosecute) to having Natasha join Clan Wolf in as defenders on Ulric's behalf
Again, politics is not a crime.

to finally bidding the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons to ensure that the Trial would result in Clan Wolf's death.
Again, baseless conjecture... There's nothing, absolutely nothing to imply the destruction of clan wolf was at any point Ulric's goal; saying so is ridiculous as the charges of genocide. The one thread between Ulric actions is the goal of wolf supremacy.


Ulric's endgame was a crippled Jade Falcon that would be too busy fighting off trials of Absorption to ever be in shape to renew the invasion, with a united, purified (of Crusaders), and exiled Clan Wolf under Phelan and Vlad on Arc Royal to defend the Inner Sphere when 3067 came around.

-snip-

EDIT:  The main reason I think he's a traitor though is the Refusal War:  His attempt to murder most of his Clan to cripple the Jade Falcons, and then have the rest exiled to the Inner Sphere with no path back to the Home Worlds is pretty traitorous.

This argument falls short.
I. The exiles were a contingency, to make sure that what ever happen in the refusal war, the wolf clan would live on.
II. It's hard to claim that Ulric set the wolves up to die and be annihilated, when the wolves almost won... Ulric didn't "send them to their death" like some back room general; he led them from the front all the way to the falcon capital where he challenged the falcon khan to single combat (which the flacon agreed but instead brought a ton LRM boats to what can only be described as an "assassination"). Even in death, Ulric score a huge victory; while the falcons were the "technical" winners, victory only came by their khan essentially admitting by his actions the falcons can't beat the wolves in a straight fight. Even the falcons were disgusted by themselves by the end of it, and it's why none of the clans made a fuss about the "jade wolves" going back to original flavor...

All those Crusader Wolves died trying to defend the man who sent them to their deaths.
They died defending the honor of their clan and their khan, while killing falcon scums and proving Wolf superiority over CJF. For a clanner, it doesn't get any better than this.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 26 May 2014, 17:43:21
I'm sure Ulric would be glad the invasion failed, but he also tried to make sure that if the invasion succeeded the Wolves would "win" it.

Yes, that was his "Plan B" in case he failed in halting the invasion.  It's stated outright in the BoK trilogy from what I remember- Phelan questions why Natasha and Ulric are participating.  The answer is "IF the Clans win, it should be us".

I.e, Plan A - Stop the Invasion.  Plan B - If Terra falls, it's to Clan Wolf instead of, say, Clan Jade Falcon.

Impartial? :o ??? No ilkhan in the history of the clans, could ever be accused of being impartial, not even St.Nick.

Ulric acted as a Khan of Clan Wolf on Turkayyid, assuming direct control.  There's favoritism, there's bias...and then there's what Ulric pulled.

The only other Clan he assumed direct control of on Turkayyid was some Jaguar forces, and that was under the pretense of 'saving them' from killing more ComGuards.

A. "Ulric continued to act against the Grand Council's decision even after he had been proven wrong under the law.". Nope, not really. Under Ulric leadership the wolves were the most successful of the invading clans, which troubled the crusaders to no end, since the wolves were mere weeks from Terra; which is why ilkhan Showers shadowed Ulric and tried his best to slow the wolves with gratuitous "impartiality".

Ulric put the Vipers in the Falcon corridor and the Nova Cats in the Jaguar's corridor.  He 'groomed' Phelan, who remarks on this fact several points throughout the trilogy- that Ulric is preparing and testing him for something.  This continues long after Ulric was promoted to ilKhan- then there's the actual defeat of the Clans by Focht on Turkayyid of course.

In addition, he manipulated the other Clans into bidding low on Turkayyid, and essentially ensured Focht would win.

B. So it's OK for the crusader council and ilkhan to set the wolves up to fail, but when Ulric returns the favor it's suddenly "treason". Are you still claiming the crusaders weren't bias?

My point exactly.  The other Clans' Khans made him ilKhan so he would not be directly leading Clan Wolf anymore, and instead would be busy leading all the Clans.  The net result?  At worst, Clan Wolf slows down without Ulric's attention and at best the other Clans' progress speeds up.

I.e, They gave him a job to keep him from leading Clan Wolf- and he led Clan Wolf anyway.  To add insult to injury, he then abused the job to cripple the other Clans.

Yeah, he was a great ilKhan!

Objection! Baseless conjecture. Especially since victory at Tukayyid would've echieved warden supremacy with the Wolves as ilclan and Ulric as the supreme leader of the clans, with the crusaders unable to oppose him.

 ???  Ulric did not want Clan Wolf to have Terra because that conflicts with his ideology.  Clan Wolf is supposed to protect Terra from the other Clans, not invade it.

Reread the end of the third Blood of Kerensky trilogy.  Focht calls him on it.  From memory, it was something to the effect of "If you had wanted the Clans to win here today Ulric, they would have"

You know, where Focht basically thanks Ulric from halting the invasion?

Again, politics is not a crime.
Again, baseless conjecture... There's nothing, absolutely nothing to imply the destruction of clan wolf was at any point Ulric's goal; saying so is ridiculous as the charges of genocide. The one thread between Ulric actions is the goal of wolf supremacy.

Again, read the novels.  The "Falcon and the Wolf" and other sourcebooks also have a good summary.

Basically:
1)  Ulric intentionally setups a de facto Trial of Absorption between the Jade Falcons and Clan Wolf.  This is in the novels- Natural Selection IIRC.  In any case, when Chistu (may have been Crichell) calls Natasha to hear Clan Wolf's bid for the Trial of Refusal, Ulric is present.  Natasha says Ulric will make the bid-  he bids the entire Clan which horrifies the Falcon Khan.  He outright says that bid would turn the Trial into one of Absorption.  Ulric smiles that 'magnificent bastard' smile of his he mocks the Falcon with a 'No, no!  It's a Trial of Refusal...'

That's Ulric springing the trap on the Falcons, locking both Clans into a battle to the death.

2)  Ulric then sends Clan Wolf best and most Warden forces (with Phelan) to the Inner Sphere on Arc Royal to keep them safe.  While in transit, Phelan plays a recording left by Ulric where he reveals that a) Phelan and his wolves are to remain permanently  in the Inner Sphere and Ulric had the path home erased from the computers to prevent them from *ever* returning.  In addition, because Ulric knew moving the charges to the Grand Council would mean losing his ilKhanship, he's using the recording to create a new Bloodname for Phelan in advance as his last act as ilKhan.

Now consider that.  Ulric created the Kell Bloodname while he was *still* ilKhan, which means it was before the Grand Council found him guilty.  It's also before he bid the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons... and it's also before he sent Phelan and the Warden wolves on a one way trip to never return to the Clan Homeworlds.

That means Ulric knew that while he was still ilKhan that he was going to be sending Phelan to the Inner Sphere, and that he was going to bid the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons.  This was all planned out.  All of it.

3)  The sourcebooks especially make it clear that Ulric's intention was to cripple the Falcons as best he could.  Again, check out Falcon and the Wolf  for an example.  While the Falcons expected him to draw the Refusal War out as long as he could in the Wolf occupation zone, to delay a resumed invasion, he instead declared the Falcon invasion corridor as the place for the Trial and threw Wolf forces into the corridor.  There's notes of the extreme speed and casualties, as well as the bidding away of Aerospace forces.  The man racked up as many dead Mechwarriors as he could-  recall that Natasha was in a Direwolf B when she fought Joanna?  That was because Widowmaker was out of service from damage.

It's noted that Wolf Crusader forces took the brunt of the action throughout the war.  I'm at work, and busy tonight, so it'll take me a couple days to check books... but again, if you look yourself you'll see that Ulric intentionally took the bright eyed, busy tailed, young Crusader Wolves and shoved them into a meat grinder to kill off as many Falcons and Wolves as he could.

A quick Google search turns up the following on a fansite.  I'm almost positive it's a copy and paste from the Falcon and Wolf scenario book:
"By virtually destroying the Jade Falcons and the Wolf Clan Crusaders, Ulric hoped to tear out the heart of the Crusader faction and protect the Inner Sphere, as he believed the Clans had been created to do."

4)  In Malicious Intent, Vlad is with Ulric on Wotan (which is how Vlad was able to acquire footage of Chistu's murder of Ulric).  Ulric reveals to Vlad that he's engineered the whole thing:  He points out that he (Ulric) is going to die on Wotan that day.  With that, Clan Wolf will be found guilty of Genocide and be killed by the rest of the Clans.  He gives Vlad a choice, either let Clan Wolf die as a traitor, guilty of genocide...or rally as many of the surviving Wolf Crusaders and lead them to Arc Royal to serve under Phelan, in exile.

  Ulric had thought he gave Vlad no way out- that faced with certain death, Vlad would lead the survivors to Arc Royal and help them defend the Inner Sphere against the Clans (as Vlad and the others are now marked for death).  Vlad says he'll find another way... which disappoints Ulric.

  Vlad did, eventually, find a way out by Refuting the Absorption.  It's the only part of Ulric's plan that didn't work out... seems Ulric groomed Vlad a little too well

This argument falls short.
I. The exiles were a contingency, to make sure that what ever happen in the refusal war, the wolf clan would live on.
II. It's hard to claim that Ulric set the wolves up to die and be annihilated, when the wolves almost won... Ulric didn't "send them to their death" like some back room general; he led them from the front all the way to the falcon capital where he challenged the falcon khan to single combat (which the flacon agreed but instead brought a ton LRM boats to what can only be described as an "assassination"). Even in death, Ulric score a huge victory; while the falcons were the "technical" winners, victory only came by their khan essentially admitting by his actions the falcons can't beat the wolves in a straight fight. Even the falcons were disgusted by themselves by the end of it, and it's why none of the clans made a fuss about the "jade wolves" going back to original flavor...
They died defending the honor of their clan and their khan, while killing falcon scums and proving Wolf superiority over CJF. For a clanner, it doesn't get any better than this.

I.  No, they were the endgame- as evidenced by Ulric's recording to Phelan and his ensuring that Phelan and the others would never be able to return, as well as Ulric's conversation with Vlad on Wotan.
II.  Ulric intended to die on Wotan.  His death is what would ensure that Vlad could not rally the survivors and remain in the Clan Homeworlds- their only chance was to join Phelan as Exiles.  Ulric's 'victory' was not showing that the Falcons are unable to defeat the Wolves.  His victory was destroying both the Wolf Crusaders and crippling the Falcons to ensure that the Clans would not be able to invade the Inner Sphere.

Recall that Clan Wolf was mostly Crusader by '57.  Vlad was leading the 'Wolf Supremacists' who were young, extremely loyal to Clan Wolf, and Crusaders.  They were building up pressure and aggression against Natasha and Phelan due to various reasons:

-  The main reason was Clan Wolf's success on Turkayyid meant very few positions were open for advancement within the Clan (due to low casualties). 
-  No chance at glory without being able to either climb the ladder or invade the Inner Sphere, and with Phelan and Natasha against a renewed invasion (being Wardens) they were seen as aiding in preventing the younger Wolves from glory
-  The Inner Sphere tactics and 'mechs that were being introduced into the Clan, such as Natasha's Wolf Spiders.  This has been expanded recently in the TRO Update series- check the Linebacker entry in the new TROU for example.

Ulric's solution was to engineer a war between the Jade Falcons (the largest threat to the Inner Sphere in his eyes) and his own Clan- where a majority of his Clan were joining the Crusader camp...and likely to overthrow Phelan and Natasha.

He sent Phelan and the Wardens to the Inner Sphere to ensure their safety, then he and Natasha led the Crusader Wolves into meat grinder after meat grinder, destroying the Falcons and Crusader Wolves as best they could.

The endgame was a crippled Jade Falcon Clan, and the ratio of Warden:Crusader greatly reduced in the Warden's favor.  In addition, his death would ensure that the Crusader Wolves had no choice but to flee to the Inner Sphere and join up with Phelan, as they were branded traitors within Clan space.

If Ulric couldn't convince the young Wolves to be Wardens... he'd force them by branding them as traitors in the eyes of their Clan brethren.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 26 May 2014, 21:52:20
Ulric acted as a Khan of Clan Wolf on Turkayyid, assuming direct control.  There's favoritism, there's bias...and then there's what Ulric pulled.

Clan Wolf dropped after all the other Clans did.  None of the other Clans solicited any advice from him so he was free to do what he wanted.

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The only other Clan he assumed direct control of on Turkayyid was some Jaguar forces, and that was under the pretense of 'saving them' from killing more ComGuards.

All their senior leaders were dead or MIA.  Had they remained, the Jaguars likely would have been annihilated especially after Focht started shifting forces away from other.  Yes they might have taken more ComGuards before they were annihilated but the end result would likely have been the Jaguars being forced from the Invasion due to a lack of front-line forces and Ulric could have replaced them with another Clan.  So, technically, it would have been in the Warden's best interests had he not intervened.

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Ulric put the Vipers in the Falcon corridor and the Nova Cats in the Jaguar's corridor.

And?  Had he been a Crusader, he would probably have done the same thing.

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then there's the actual defeat of the Clans by Focht on Turkayyid of course.

Who was it that invited ComStar into the midst of the Clans?  Hint:  It wasn't Ulric.

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In addition, he manipulated the other Clans into bidding low on Turkayyid, and essentially ensured Focht would win.

No manipulation was necessary, they would have done that regardless of who was Khan, especially the Smoke Jaguars who had a lot to prove after Wolcott and Luthien.  Their own competitiveness drove them to it.

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My point exactly.  The other Clans' Khans made him ilKhan so he would not be directly leading Clan Wolf anymore, and instead would be busy leading all the Clans.  The net result?  At worst, Clan Wolf slows down without Ulric's attention and at best the other Clans' progress speeds up.

Funny thing is none of the other Clans fully heeded to his advice.  And, btw, elevating him was their backup plan if their charges didn't stick and they elevated him to remove a Warden Khan from the Grand Council thinking he would chose Conal Ward as his successor.

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I.e, They gave him a job to keep him from leading Clan Wolf- and he led Clan Wolf anyway.  To add insult to injury, he then abused the job to cripple the other Clans.

And?  So did his predecessor and plenty of other previous ilKhans.

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Basically:
1)  Ulric intentionally setups a de facto Trial of Absorption between the Jade Falcons and Clan Wolf.  This is in the novels- Natural Selection IIRC.  In any case, when Chistu (may have been Crichell) calls Natasha to hear Clan Wolf's bid for the Trial of Refusal, Ulric is present.  Natasha says Ulric will make the bid-  he bids the entire Clan which horrifies the Falcon Khan.  He outright says that bid would turn the Trial into one of Absorption.  Ulric smiles that 'magnificent bastard' smile of his he mocks the Falcon with a 'No, no!  It's a Trial of Refusal...'

It's debatable as to what the outcome would have been had Chistu not murdered Ulric.  Even without Phelan's Wolves, who eliminated two Falcon Galaxies after their defection to the Inner Sphere, there was a chance for Clan Wolf to win the Refusal War.  Note:  even if Clan Wolf had won, both Clans' toumans would have been heavily depleted.

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2)  Ulric then sends Clan Wolf best and most Warden forces (with Phelan) to the Inner Sphere on Arc Royal to keep them safe.  While in transit, Phelan plays a recording left by Ulric where he reveals that a) Phelan and his wolves are to remain permanently  in the Inner Sphere and Ulric had the path home erased from the computers to prevent them from *ever* returning.  In addition, because Ulric knew moving the charges to the Grand Council would mean losing his ilKhanship, he's using the recording to create a new Bloodname for Phelan in advance as his last act as ilKhan.

One, debatable whether Ulric sent all the best and most Warden forces with Phelan.  The elite 11th Battle Cluster remained with the Crusader Wolves and there were sufficient elite warriors to prevent a Trial of Absorption by another Clan.  As part of their security procedures, no Clan WarShip had the entire Exodus Route stored on their computers.  This is mentioned several times.

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That means Ulric knew that while he was still ilKhan that he was going to be sending Phelan to the Inner Sphere, and that he was going to bid the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons.  This was all planned out.  All of it.

Not quite all planned out.  He planned out what he could in the little time he had available.  After all while he was able to provide them with production specs for Omnis and some lower caste civilians, he was unable to provide them with the equipment to produce them.  Phelan's Wolves had to take it from the Ghost Bears.

It's been noted in previous threads that Ulric could have easily avoided the charges and the Refusal War but still have undermined the invasion simply by allowing the Invading Clans to strike at one another and allowing HW Clans to trial for a limited number of IS worlds.  It would have blooded the Crusader Clans, undermined their preparations for a renewed Invasion, helped secure his own position by making the HW Clans happy as well as causing further conflict between HW and Invading Clans and possibly even led to the ouster of a Crusader Clan from the invasion force (probably only to replaced by another Crusader Clan but still-it would have further undermined the Crusaders).

For all we know, the same Clans that viewed him as a traitor could have viewed him as a savior only one or two decades later by preventing them from becoming tainted by the Inner Sphere.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Mohammed As`Zaman Bey on 27 May 2014, 07:55:32
Summary:
Crusader: Yes.
Warden: No.
Crusader: Yes.
Warden: No.
Crusader: Yes.
Warden: No.
Crusader: Yes!
Warden: No!
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 27 May 2014, 17:06:40
For all we know, the same Clans that viewed him as a traitor could have viewed him as a savior only one or two decades later by preventing them from becoming tainted by the Inner Sphere.

Good debate, guys. 

I just wanted to throw in that the first hint of Inner Sphere taint amongst the Clans was first mentioned by Ulric Kerensky himself, when he noted how the Clans had changed just before the battle on Tukayyid.  He said that the deeper the Clans penetrate into the IS, the more it irrevocably changes what they are.  Aidan Pryde spoke of it too, in Falcon Guard, mentioning the ilKhan's speech as he wondered if the Falcons should imitate the Wolves lines of supply leading back to the homeworlds.

I think we can open this question up further and ask did the Khans and other leaders of all Clans who pushed for the IS invasion betray the rest of the Clans?  It would be just as valid as singling out Ulric Kerensky, I feel. 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Trajan Helmer on 28 May 2014, 01:18:19
And?  Had he been a Crusader, he would probably have done the same thing.
This can't be proven. It's not a forgone conclusion that a crusader ilKhan would saddle the Wolves with with another Warden or Crusader Clan.   
Who was it that invited ComStar into the midst of the Clans?  Hint:  It wasn't Ulric.
Leo Showers coming to an accommodation with ComStar early doesn't mean combat on Tukayyid was sure to occur later on. Ulric had everything to do with Tukayyid though.

... And, btw, elevating him was their backup plan if their charges didn't stick and they elevated him to remove a Warden Khan from the Grand Council thinking he would chose Conal Ward as his successor.

It was the long-standing tradition in that Clan for the Loremaster to become Khan in that case. Ulric broke with it was all that was done.
And?  So did his predecessor and plenty of other previous ilKhans.
Hmm, nope. Only the Cloud Cobra ilKhan, Tchernikov (can't remember the name) was a murderer of the previous holder. He was also noted for putting his own Clan above the interest of promoting fairness amongst all the Clans. Leo Showers approved PGCs for his own Clan before allowing all the others to do the same. Besides trying to slow the Wolf advance, I can find no other issue that could come close to what Ulric did.
It's debatable as to what the outcome would have been had Chistu not murdered Ulric. 
According to Wolf tastes, it was noted to be a clever use of resources, only the Falcons, also noted to be hidebound about traditions then, would've seen it as such. At least as the two participants in that fight matter.
Even without Phelan's Wolves, who eliminated two Falcon Galaxies after their defection to the Inner Sphere, there was a chance for Clan Wolf to win the Refusal War. 
Nope, only Vau Galaxy under GC Angela Somebloodnameorother was brought down on Morges. Silly girl didn't take the Kell Hounds into account.
Before Phelan's group was attacked on said planet, they had already been Abjured. If Clan Wolf had fought on Derf instead of double jumping to Wotan first, they likely would have been defeated in detail. Sources point to Wolf supplies and personnel to be low before reaching Derf which is why they went to Wotan to finish the fight there instead. Also keep in mind, the Wolves fought very loosely according to zellbrigen whereas the Falcons did not deviate from it at all.  Up to Chistu's, "creativity," there is nothing that can be said against the Falcon's honor to that point concerning the war.

One, debatable whether Ulric sent all the best and most Warden forces with Phelan. 
Ulric, Natasha, and Phelan chose who they thought were the best Wardens. The litmus test must've been more political than martial skill in that regard. It's probable the 11th Battle was more loyal to the Clan(s) than to Ulric or Phelan personally.

It's been noted in previous threads that Ulric could have easily avoided the charges and the Refusal War but still have undermined the invasion simply by allowing the Invading Clans to strike at one another and allowing HW Clans to trial for a limited number of IS worlds.  It would have blooded the Crusader Clans, undermined their preparations for a renewed Invasion, helped secure his own position by making the HW Clans happy as well as causing further conflict between HW and Invading Clans and possibly even led to the ouster of a Crusader Clan from the invasion force (probably only to replaced by another Crusader Clan but still-it would have further undermined the Crusaders).

Problem is previous discussion threads aren't canon.
For all we know, the same Clans that viewed him as a traitor could have viewed him as a savior only one or two decades later by preventing them from becoming tainted by the Inner Sphere.
Regardless of point of view, Ulric has gone down in Clan history as a guilty traitor to the Clans. We all know he was a political and martial genius, but he became a traitor when he was convicted of the charge (baseless it may be in our eyes), caused the death of the original Clan Wolf, and died knowingly in his own defense against the representatives of the Grand Council decision, Clan Jade Falcon.  Thems the breaks, I guess. The Falcons destroyed their longtime foe, but Vlad resurrected the new Clan Wolf.

I think we can open this question up further and ask did the Khans and other leaders of all Clans who pushed for the IS invasion betray the rest of the Clans?  It would be just as valid as singling out Ulric Kerensky, I feel. 

No offense, but a different thread should be made since it goes way off the OP's premise.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 28 May 2014, 03:48:47
This can't be proven. It's not a forgone conclusion that a crusader ilKhan would saddle the Wolves with with another Warden or Crusader Clan.

As the famous quote goes: "Huh?".  I was talking about Ulric being a crusader although if one of the Falcon Khans saw an advantage to adding a crusader Clan to the Wolf corridor they probably would have done so.

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Leo Showers coming to an accommodation with ComStar early doesn't mean combat on Tukayyid was sure to occur later on. Ulric had everything to do with Tukayyid though.

Leo Showers invited the proverbial snake into the nest.  If he hadn't done that Focht would have had a far more difficult time coming up with a strategy for Tukayyid.

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It was the long-standing tradition in that Clan for the Loremaster to become Khan in that case. Ulric broke with it was all that was done.

Tradition, not law.  And Ulric had proven that he would break with tradition whenever it suited him.  Conal Ward, who had sparred with him in Clan Wolf's Clan Council on more than one occasion, was very aware of this.

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Hmm, nope. Only the Cloud Cobra ilKhan, Tchernikov (can't remember the name) was a murderer of the previous holder.  He was also noted for putting his own Clan above the interest of promoting fairness amongst all the Clans. Leo Showers approved PGCs for his own Clan before allowing all the others to do the same. Besides trying to slow the Wolf advance, I can find no other issue that could come close to what Ulric did.

I was talking about ilKhan's abusing the position for their own purposes (or their own Clans) rather than for the good of the Clans as a whole.  Leo Showers repeatedly abused his position to either insult Clan Wolf (arbitrarily assigning Clan Wolf to the corridor that appeared to offer the least chance for winning glory and honor and implying that they needed his supervision) or hamper their progress (by directly interfering with their operations and initially denying Ulric's request to bring PGCs forward despite having already given permission to his own Clan) while directing his own Clan's operations from the Clan Wolf flagship.

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According to Wolf tastes, it was noted to be a clever use of resources, only the Falcons, also noted to be hidebound about traditions then, would've seen it as such. At least as the two participants in that fight matter.

If it had come out not only would Chistu have been disgraced but the Falcons' honor as a whole would have been called into question by the Grand Council (especially by those who saw a chance of replacing them in the invasion).

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Nope, only Vau Galaxy under GC Angela Somebloodnameorother was brought down on Morges. Silly girl didn't take the Kell Hounds into account.

You are the one who is incorrect here.  Even the Falcons admit that they lost both Omicron AND Vau Galaxy (CC, p93).  Those two galaxies and their constituent parts were subsequently stricken from the Clan's honor roll.

[quote
Before Phelan's group was attacked on said planet, they had already been Abjured. If Clan Wolf had fought on Derf instead of double jumping to Wotan first, they likely would have been defeated in detail. Sources point to Wolf supplies and personnel to be low before reaching Derf which is why they went to Wotan to finish the fight there instead.
[/quote]

If they did this, if they did that.  They could also have gone to Derf and captured the Falcon's main supply depot in a combat drop.  It's pure speculation.  BTW Phelan's Wolves were abjured AFTER the Battle of Morges not before.  After all, they didn't b

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Also keep in mind, the Wolves fought very loosely according to zellbrigen whereas the Falcons did not deviate from it at all.  Up to Chistu's, "creativity," there is nothing that can be said against the Falcon's honor to that point concerning the war.

Actually from the beginning the Falcon Khans' honor could be called into question as they were conspiring with warriors (to make it worse they were junior warriors and one wasn't even bloodnamed).  The last time something like that happened was during the Blood Scandal.  Not to mention that the Falcons' overall strategy was more Clan Wolf than Clan Falcon in concept.  They used their less capable units to wear down the Wolf forces holding most of their elite forces back to strike once the Wolves were worn down.

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Ulric, Natasha, and Phelan chose who they thought were the best Wardens. The litmus test must've been more political than martial skill in that regard. It's probable the 11th Battle was more loyal to the Clan(s) than to Ulric or Phelan personally.

Did you even bother to check?  While it is unclear whether they were ordered to join up with Phelan, it is clearly stated that they were unable to make it off Wotan.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Øystein on 28 May 2014, 09:52:19
Tradition, not law.  And Ulric had proven that he would break with tradition whenever it suited him.  Conal Ward, who had sparred with him in Clan Wolf's Clan Council on more than one occasion, was very aware of this.
Ulric broke nothing, it was Conal's own stupidity that lost him the shot at the position.  Don't suggest someone else as a better choice if you want it yourself, someone might take you at your word :D



Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 28 May 2014, 10:45:04
This can't be proven. It's not a forgone conclusion that a crusader ilKhan would saddle the Wolves with with another Warden or Crusader Clan.    Leo Showers coming to an accommodation with ComStar early doesn't mean combat on Tukayyid was sure to occur later on. Ulric had everything to do with Tukayyid though.

If we're assuming that Ulric is the same guy, except for being a warden it is. A crusader Khan would still won't to hinder his competing clans while enforcing his own clan with an old time ally...

Being crusaders doesn't make clanners into singleminded force primarily interested with the glory of the clans over his own clan. The clan that would reach Terra first would become the ilclan, and it's khan an undisputed ilkahn. For any ilkhan to allow any other clan than his own to achieve that, is negligent, not altruistic.

This can't be proven. It's not a forgone conclusion that a crusader ilKhan would saddle the Wolves with with another Warden or Crusader Clan.    Leo Showers coming to an accommodation with ComStar early doesn't mean combat on Tukayyid was sure to occur later on. Ulric had everything to do with Tukayyid though.

It was the long-standing tradition in that Clan for the Loremaster to become Khan in that case. Ulric broke with it was all that was done.Hmm, nope. Only the Cloud Cobra ilKhan, Tchernikov (can't remember the name) was a murderer of the previous holder. He was also noted for putting his own Clan above the interest of promoting fairness amongst all the Clans. Leo Showers approved PGCs for his own Clan before allowing all the others to do the same. Besides trying to slow the Wolf advance, I can find no other issue that could come close to what Ulric did.
What?  :o Ulric didn't murder his predecessor. Showers committed assisted suicide by stupidity with the help of Tyra Miraborg... Ulric wasn't extraordinarily manipulative and bias compared to other clan ilkhans going back Nick.

"Promoting fairness"? It's the clans... "Might makes right"... While it's grunted about, mistaking the wellness of his own clan for the wellness of all clans is common.

Also, Tchernikov was the victim...

According to Wolf tastes, it was noted to be a clever use of resources, only the Falcons, also noted to be hidebound about traditions then, would've seen it as such. At least as the two participants in that fight matter.

Also keep in mind, the Wolves fought very loosely according to zellbrigen whereas the Falcons did not deviate from it at all.  Up to Chistu's, "creativity," there is nothing that can be said against the Falcon's honor to that point concerning the war.

Calling fire support to save your ass during a duel, is not "creative"... When the clan widowmaker pulled the same stunt, it led to a trial of annihilation. Only the crusader corruption prevent that fate from befalling the dezgra falcons.

"We were totally honorable until the part where we weren't" isn't much of an argument. Try using it at court and watch as hilarity ensues.


Problem is previous discussion threads aren't canon. Regardless of point of view, Ulric has gone down in Clan history as a guilty traitor to the Clans. We all know he was a political and martial genius, but he became a traitor when he was convicted of the charge (baseless it may be in our eyes), caused the death of the original Clan Wolf, and died knowingly in his own defense against the representatives of the Grand Council decision, Clan Jade Falcon.  Thems the breaks, I guess. The Falcons destroyed their longtime foe, but Vlad resurrected the new Clan Wolf.
"Baseless it may be in our eyes"? Than what is this thread? I thought we were discussing how we as outside posters feel about UK, not how the bias clans do...

I think we can open this question up further and ask did the Khans and other leaders of all Clans who pushed for the IS invasion betray the rest of the Clans?  It would be just as valid as singling out Ulric Kerensky, I feel. 
No offense, but a different thread should be made since it goes way off the OP's premise.
I disagree. Throughout his term as khan and ilkhan, Ulric was held to a different standard than the crusaders who used their majority in the council to abuse the wardens, and the wolves and Ulric in particular.

It's imperative to compare him to his contemporary counterparts in his clan and others, since this are the only true standards. You can't declare him treasonous, if he wasn't more "treasonous" than his peers who were immune from prosecution by virtue of belonging to the now defunct crusaders.
In the dark age, where the majority of the clans can be considered wardens (or at least not "crusaders"), I doubt many clanners outside the wolf clans spend much time contemplating Ulric in any way. CWX probably idolize him, and CW at the very least appreciate that everything they have achieved is thanks to him.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 28 May 2014, 15:08:44
Clan Wolf dropped after all the other Clans did.  None of the other Clans solicited any advice from him so he was free to do what he wanted.

Ulric was ilKhan.  He was responsible for the entire trial, and was not simply an advisor.  See below:

All their senior leaders were dead or MIA.  Had they remained, the Jaguars likely would have been annihilated especially after Focht started shifting forces away from other.  Yes they might have taken more ComGuards before they were annihilated but the end result would likely have been the Jaguars being forced from the Invasion due to a lack of front-line forces and Ulric could have replaced them with another Clan.  So, technically, it would have been in the Warden's best interests had he not intervened.

Ulric had to order the Jaguars to leave the battle.  He was not 'solicited' by their forces once their Khans appeared to be out of commission, nor did they act upon 'advice'.  They wished to remain and continue to fight.  Now, either Ulric had no authority (as you suggested in the above quote) and overstepped his boundaries here or he had authority and used none of it except for this rare occurrence and the entire Trial portion for Clan Wolf.

As for 'saving' the Jaguars, recall that even after Turkayyid, Smoke Jaguar was still considered by both the Clans and Inner Sphere to be one of the strongest Clans all the way up until 3060.  Their actual weakness was not exposed until Operation Bulldog-  Vlad attacks the Jaguars in '58 to help discourage attempts at Absorption by attacking one of the 'strongest' Clans.

In '52, the very idea that they would be so weakened is even more ridiculous to other Clans, especially when you factor in that the Jaguars had made the lowest bid on Turkayyid. 

And?  Had he been a Crusader, he would probably have done the same thing.

I'm not so sure of that.  In addtion, acting against the best interest of the Invasion is still acting against the best interest of the Invasion.
 
Who was it that invited ComStar into the midst of the Clans?  Hint:  It wasn't Ulric.

Ulric didn't bring Phelan into Clan Wolf either.  He still recognized Focht as he did with Phelan- that they could be used as powerful tools to be used to halt the Invasion.

No manipulation was necessary, they would have done that regardless of who was Khan, especially the Smoke Jaguars who had a lot to prove after Wolcott and Luthien.  Their own competitiveness drove them to it.

An ilKhan's political power had been reduced- not their ability in military matters, and especially as a commander of a trial.  I suggest you take a look at the ilKhan and Bidding sections of Warriors of Kerensky and/or Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans.  Ulric could have enforced minimum bids or limited the significant cuts to the bids, among other things.

He did nothing.

Funny thing is none of the other Clans fully heeded to his advice.  And, btw, elevating him was their backup plan if their charges didn't stick and they elevated him to remove a Warden Khan from the Grand Council thinking he would chose Conal Ward as his successor.

What advice did Ulric actually give? 

We do know that Ulric had the means to ensure a victory on Turkayyid, as the third Blood of Kerensky book reveals at the end of the trial.

Whenever this comes up on the board, the argument is always the same:  'Ulric didn't do anything'  'It's the fault of the other Clans'  'Ulric tried but the other Clans didn't listen'.

The ilKhan is supposed to unify the Clans together.  That's how the Clans function- you have a Star Colonel that ensures his Star Captains' competition amongst eachother doesn't go too far and compromise the Clan's chance at victory.  Superiors actually lead and manage their people.  Ulric did just enough that he could hide behind an excuse of 'trying'.

Focht and Ulric, in a private conversation, make it quite clear that had Ulric actually put some effort into a Clan victory the Clans would have won Terra in '52. 

He didn't personally agree with the invasion, so he used his position as leader of the invasion to stop it.  If that makes him a traitor or not is debatable.  The fact that he used Focht and ensured the other Clans hung themselves isn't.

And?  So did his predecessor and plenty of other previous ilKhans.

Trent from Clan Smoke Jaguar also aided the Inner Sphere against the Clans.  Does that mean his act wasn't traitorous?

It's debatable as to what the outcome would have been had Chistu not murdered Ulric.  Even without Phelan's Wolves, who eliminated two Falcon Galaxies after their defection to the Inner Sphere, there was a chance for Clan Wolf to win the Refusal War.  Note:  even if Clan Wolf had won, both Clans' toumans would have been heavily depleted.

Victory wasn't an option for Ulric.  Per Page 14 of Falcon and the Wolf sourcebook, Ulric's attack on Wotan hoped to finish crippling the Falcons by killing both Falcon Khans.  Had Ulric 'won', we'd have had the same situation, except the (Crusader) Clan Wolf under Vlad would not exist, and the Exiles would be up to ~6 Galaxies.

One, debatable whether Ulric sent all the best and most Warden forces with Phelan.  The elite 11th Battle Cluster remained with the Crusader Wolves and there were sufficient elite warriors to prevent a Trial of Absorption by another Clan.  As part of their security procedures, no Clan WarShip had the entire Exodus Route stored on their computers.  This is mentioned several times.

One:  "Ulric revealed his own scheme to use the Trial as a means of crippling the Crusaders' power, while ensuring the long-term survival of the Wardens whom he considered the best and truest members of the Wolf Clan." Falcon and the Wolf

True, Ulric didn't send every Warden.  He did, however, send the 'bulk', as well as an entire third of Clan Wolf's equipment with Phelan. 

It was not a single ship that Ulric sent either.  Again, his recording specifically states that he has intentionally taken the necessary steps to ensure that Phelan and his Wolves will be unable to ever return to the Homeworlds.

Not quite all planned out.  He planned out what he could in the little time he had available.  After all while he was able to provide them with production specs for Omnis and some lower caste civilians, he was unable to provide them with the equipment to produce them.  Phelan's Wolves had to take it from the Ghost Bears.

That was due to constraints.  Clan Wolf's relocation to Arc Royal was supposed to be a secret until it was too late to be prevented.  Also recall that the Crusader survivors were supposed to head to Arc Royal after Wotan.

It's been noted in previous threads that Ulric could have easily avoided the charges and the Refusal War but still have undermined the invasion simply by allowing the Invading Clans to strike at one another and allowing HW Clans to trial for a limited number of IS worlds.

It would have blooded the Crusader Clans, undermined their preparations for a renewed Invasion, helped secure his own position by making the HW Clans happy as well as causing further conflict between HW and Invading Clans and possibly even led to the ouster of a Crusader Clan from the invasion force (probably only to replaced by another Crusader Clan but still-it would have further undermined the Crusaders).

That would have left the Crusader Wolves alive however, and not prevented Clan Wolf becoming a Crusader Clan.

From Falcon and the Wolf:

At best, the Jade Falcons could only win a pyrrhic victory in the Refusal War; the swath of destruction cut through their ranks by Clan Wolf would cost them all hope of spearheading a renewed invasion of the Inner Sphere. The other Crusader Clans, beset by rebellions on occupied worlds and lacking the Falcons' military acumen, could do the Inner Sphere less harm. By virtually destroying the Jade Falcons and the Wolf Clan Crusaders, Ulric hoped to tear out the heart of the Crusader faction and protect the Inner Sphere, as he believed the Clans had been created to do.

For all we know, the same Clans that viewed him as a traitor could have viewed him as a savior only one or two decades later by preventing them from becoming tainted by the Inner Sphere.

I doubt it.  While it can be argued that he saved the Clans, the Clans tend to view things as pretty black and white.  Ulric lost the Trial of Refusal- therefor he was guilty.

I do think it's rather ironic though that while he was initially falsely convicted of intentionally getting young Clan warriors killed,
Ulric did that just that during the Refusal War.

In a sense, at the end, he was guilty of the very thing he was convicted of.  Perhaps the Trial of Refusal having the final say does works afterall ;)

BTW:
BTW Phelan's Wolves were abjured AFTER the Battle of Morges not before.

Chistu Abjured Phelan and his Wolves just hours after Ulric was killed on Wotan on December 10th, 3057.

While the Falcons arrived in the Morges system on December 5th, 3057, Morges didn't actually begin until the Falcons dropped on December 13th, 3057.  In fact, the Falcons inform Phelan that both the 'Black Widow' and the 'Grey Wolf' (Ulric) are dead before the battle began.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Trajan Helmer on 28 May 2014, 15:56:03
If we're assuming that Ulric is the same guy, except for being a warden it is. A crusader Khan would still won't to hinder his competing clans while enforcing his own clan with an old time ally...
Being crusaders doesn't make clanners into singleminded force primarily interested with the glory of the clans over his own clan. The clan that would reach Terra first would become the ilclan, and it's khan an undisputed ilkahn. For any ilkhan to allow any other clan than his own to achieve that, is negligent, not altruistic.

The position of IlKhan was supposed to be one of neutrality when it came to handling the affairs of the Clans as a whole. By all accounts I am aware of, such neutrality was followed by first four IlKhans. Khatib (I finally remembered his proper name) deviated from that and set a bad precedent that all following IlKhans proceeded with in some way or another.

What?  :o Ulric didn't murder his predecessor.
I didn't say he did, either.
Showers committed assisted suicide by stupidity with the help of Tyra Miraborg... Ulric wasn't extraordinarily manipulative and bias compared to other clan ilkhans going back Nick.
However, Ulric's actions throughout his reign are a great testament to his skill in manipulating events to his favor.

Calling fire support to save your ass during a duel, is not "creative"... When the clan widowmaker pulled the same stunt, it led to a trial of annihilation. Only the crusader corruption prevent that fate from befalling the dezgra falcons.

Considering Vahn launched the attack at the beginning of the Circle of Equals, his butt wasn't being saved. Treacherously, Vahn had everything planned down to the tacks, save for one Vladimir of the Wards. Since Vlad and the higher echelons of the Falcons agreed to keep the info of Vahn's treachery silent, it greatly reduced the odds of the Falcons being called to an absorption. Even then, it doesn't guarantee the Falcons would have been absorbed, let alone the Jade Wolves new Wolf Clan. Ugly doings seem to be part & parcel at the end of ugly conflicts. Also, the Widowmakers were considered Absorbed, not Annihilated.
"We were totally honorable until the part where we weren't" isn't much of an argument.
I recognize that the Falcons (at least according to scenario rules...which I should not conflate with the breakdown in zell on both parties in most of the fights), were as honorable as the Wolves in the Refusal War up to Vandervahn's treachery. But we must realize together that it was his wrongdoing, not the Falcons-at-large that was "extra-dezgra." 
"Baseless it may be in our eyes"? Than what is this thread? I thought we were discussing how we as outside posters feel about UK, not how the bias clans do...
Since BattleTech is a fictional universe, we're all outsiders. We outsiders see through the charge of genocide against Ulric but in-universe, the Clans took it very seriously. Do we have a voting record of who voted for/against Ulric? Unless we do, it can't be ascertained if Ulric's conviction was purely on political lines. 
I disagree. Throughout his term as khan and ilkhan, Ulric was held to a different standard than the crusaders who used their majority in the council to abuse the wardens, and the wolves and Ulric in particular.
I accept the disagreement.  As the Wolf (Il)Khan, Ulric experienced everything a Khan experiences normally (internal division/political agendas), up to the Wolf Supremacist's charges against him. As far as being used and abused by the Crusader's power bloc, I suspect it wasn't any different than when the Wardens held sway which was all the way to Operation: REVIVAL. The Crusaders pushed the Wardens down whenever they could, just as the Wardens did to them when they were the political minority.
It's imperative to compare him to his contemporary counterparts in his clan and others, since this are the only true standards. You can't declare him treasonous, if he wasn't more "treasonous" than his peers who were immune from prosecution by virtue of belonging to the now defunct crusaders.
I see your point on comparisons.  However, I can call Ulric a guilty traitor because the Grand Council found him so and the defender of the decision, the Jade Falcons successfully defeated Ulric's Trial of Refusal, proving he was guilty of genocide. Unfortunately for his iron-strong supporters, this is canon. I may be a huge Falcon fan but I can see canon for what it is, even when it's ugly (Chistu's actions, Vlad and Elias's collusion, etc) to me.
In the dark age, where the majority of the clans can be considered wardens (or at least not "crusaders"), I doubt many clanners outside the wolf clans spend much time contemplating Ulric in any way. CWX probably idolize him, and CW at the very least appreciate that everything they have achieved is thanks to him.
Since we know nothing political of the Homeworlders beyond the Bastion and Aggressor factions, it seems there are no Crusaders or Wardens there. In the IS, it seems only the Wolves and Falcons continue to espouse the Crusader philosophy.  The New Clan Wolf owes EVERYTHING to Vladimir Ward. If it were not for him (and Marthe Pryde's declining to refuse Crichell's collaborative deal with Vlad per Malicious Intent) Clan Jade Falcon would own all of Clan Wolf's assets and be the greatest Clan, virtually immune from major outside predations including absorption. How changed would canon be then?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 28 May 2014, 17:03:40
I'll say this about excepting trial results as indication of guilt:
Lets say we read in a book that a fox warrior stole something from a jaguar.
The infuriated jaguar is convinced the thief is another warrior from the bears.
The jaguar declare a trial of grievance against the bear, and defeats him.
Does that mean that from our perspective the bear was indeed the thief? Or the Fox?

Just because a trial (whether clan or an IS one) is declared and successfully carried out against someone, whom we know is innocent, doesn't actually make him guilty...

We know all the accusations against Ulric in the various trials were politically motivated and not by "justice".
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: E. Icaza on 30 May 2014, 20:24:33
Aff.  Ulric was the greatest traitor that the Clans have ever known.  His efforts to derail the Clans manifest destiny, out of his misguided belief in the Warden philosophy, lead directly to many of the later disasters that befall the Way of the Clans in later periods.     

It seems that the Kerensky bloodline produced more than a few traitors during REVIVAL and should have been long since Reaved or even wholly expunged.  While we can revere the Founder's wisdom, it is far too obvious that his descendents have fallen far from that wisdom in the intervening centuries.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: BirdofPrey on 31 May 2014, 00:38:12
What manifest desity?  Only the Crusaders wanted to conquer, and not ever clan is Crusaders.
Ulric upheld the Views of his clan and the Warden way.


Considering the Warden clans have managed to get along pretty well while the crusaders run into obstacles at every turn, and most of those are self inflicted, the Crusader viewpoint is the one that is faulty.  The only Crusader clan to actually take an objective at Tukkayid was Clan Ghost Bear, and they aren't Crusader anymore.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Captain of C-21 on 31 May 2014, 10:35:13
Have to agree with Sid here.  By any reasonable metric, Ulric ultimately did not do his job as IlKhan andd tried to hamstring the Clans as much as possible rather than ensue the Invasion was a success.  He put his own individual beliefs before the good of the Clans.

Instead of looking at this from a Crusader/Warden perspective, you can always point out as well that without a doubt the Inner Sphere is probably very glad Ulric was IlKhan for what time he was.  If that does not make him a traitor, I'm not sure what would.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 31 May 2014, 10:43:53
Is it really his fault no one took his advice?  The one clan that did, his Wolves, conquered worlds faster than anyone else and won at Tukayyid.  The Crusaders put him in office, then ignored him.  How does that make him a traitor?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 31 May 2014, 10:59:42
I'm with you on that AR Warrior.

Ulric's Wolves followed Ulric's plan.  Ulric's Wolves did well in the invasion, and won their engagements on Tukayyid.  None of the other Clans can match that, most fall far short. 

Ulric Kerensky set the example, but none chose to follow that example, and paid for it with failure.  More than that, BoK makes it rather clear that Ulric communicated his ideas repeatedly and they were ignored for varying reasons.

The Crusader Clans take no accountability for their own negligence in this regard.  But the fact is that they failed, and the Wolves did not.  If they could not hold their own, then the Clan way is clear: They did not deserve to win and should not cast blame at the leader that they chose in their blinding arrogance.  Ulric is most certainly not a traitor.  He may not have helped the Crusaders, but again why do Crusader Clans need help to do their task?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: BirdofPrey on 31 May 2014, 11:26:29
Exactly, while his ultimate motives may have been somewhat questionable, he still did what he could to lead.  It is not his fault if the other clans refuse to follow.

Tukkayid was a clan trial or possession and if I remember correctly, the other clans were all for it, and he repeatedly tried to give them advice for how to succeed and was ignored, so the other clans wanted to use him as a scapegoat to cover for their own failings.  Might makes right, and during Operation Revival, that puts Wolves and the Kerenskies in the lead.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 31 May 2014, 13:18:05
Have to agree with Sid here.  By any reasonable metric, Ulric ultimately did not do his job as IlKhan andd tried to hamstring the Clans as much as possible rather than ensue the Invasion was a success.  He put his own individual beliefs before the good of the Clans.

Bold words from a fan of a CNC offshoot...

Instead of looking at this from a Crusader/Warden perspective, you can always point out as well that without a doubt the Inner Sphere is probably very glad Ulric was IlKhan for what time he was.  If that does not make him a traitor, I'm not sure what would.

That holds water only if you believe the clans purpose was to torment the IS, not to save it.

The crusaders were corrupting Kerensky vision of the role of the clans. The whole premise of crusaders for justifying the invasion, was that they were horrified at the notion of a second star league without them at the head. From a warden perspective, the thought of the IS reforming the SL, reinforce their belief that the IS is worth saving.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: E. Icaza on 31 May 2014, 15:48:22
The crusaders were corrupting Kerensky vision of the role of the clans. The whole premise of crusaders for justifying the invasion, was that they were horrified at the notion of a second star league without them at the head. From a warden perspective, the thought of the IS reforming the SL, reinforce their belief that the IS is worth saving.

Then shouldn't the inability of the Successor Houses to sustain a second Star League and its collapse be proof that the IS isn't worth saving?

What manifest desity?  Only the Crusaders wanted to conquer, and not ever clan is Crusaders.
Ulric upheld the Views of his clan and the Warden way.

Exactly.  The Warden cause was more important to Ulric than the Way of the Clans.  It was so important to him that he was willing to see at least two Clans destroyed in internecine fighting to protect an Inner Sphere so corrupt they couldn't sustain a Star League for more than a decade and that took actions that led to the rise of the Word of Blake.  Sounds like a total and complete failure of the Warden cause to me.

Of course, the Crusader cause isn't looking to glamorous either, but then how effective could they be when they had to drag the Wardens around with them?  All Wardens are traitors to the Way of the Clans.  The Clans weren't meant to protect or cooperate with the Inner Sphere.  They were meant to conquer and rule it.   
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Warpimp on 31 May 2014, 16:06:02
The Warden cause was more important to Ulric than the Way of the Clans.

This I think is the core of why I think Ulric was a traitor. He obviously doesn't believe in the Clan way of life and was actively trying to destroy that way of life (whether or not that is a good thing is beside the point). This, I think, is what makes him different than other scheming ilKhans.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 31 May 2014, 17:13:59
It would be nice for the Crusaders if that statement was true, but it is not true.

Ulric did nothing to harm the Crusader Clans or the Clan way of life.  He preserved the Warden Wolf Clan, and as he himself insisted, he saved the Clans from their selves. 

What if getting to Terra in the original Invasion time-frame meant that certain Clans would be weak and stretched thin, allowing the Federated Suns portion of the FC's might to be focused on the head of a Clan as it approached their border.  Or if the FWL or Cappies could have done the same thing.  At that time, in the pre-Jihad and pre-DA FASA universe, that could have been a possibility.  They could reach their goal and a fresh faction could finish off at least one if not more of the "victors" in that way.  That scenario could quite easily unfold.  It was what the FWL and Cappies were planning to do anyway if the Clan invasion reached striking distance of their borders, I would imagine.  What other plan would they have?  As indicated in BoK, they were quite self-interested at this time and waiting for such an eventuality until Focht came through for humanity.

I think Ulric was telling the truth about preserving the Clans.  This would not be the act of a traitor.  Once again, it is the act of a preserver.  The Clans still exist, among them are two Wolf Clans. 

Besides, this is all distraction from the fact that the Crusaders insisted upon a conflict with the IS that they proved incapable of carrying out successfully on the field of battle.  In some case, it was Hubris, like Elias Crichell saying they would be better served by sending mostly empty transports to the IS to cart away spoils of war.  Naivety likely played a powerful role as well, there are certain Clans that were famous for their naivety in the face of the Spheroids.  I'll not laugh since we should be respectful of Clans that are no longer with us. 

A lack of listening to what their IlKhan told them to do also plainly and clearly played a strong roll in this.  They elect a war leader, then they do not listen to war leader, then blame war leader when they lost.  If the Crusaders were serious, they should have eschewed politics and elected a Crusader Khan as IlKhan, one that would drive them to meet their destinies sooner.   ^-^
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 31 May 2014, 18:04:53
This I think is the core of why I think Ulric was a traitor. He obviously doesn't believe in the Clan way of life and was actively trying to destroy that way of life (whether or not that is a good thing is beside the point). This, I think, is what makes him different than other scheming ilKhans.
What are you talking about?  Ulric doesn't seem to have any problem with the caste system and warrior dominance thereof, for example, or the eugenics program, or the might-makes-right "justice" system.  What did he do to destroy the Clan way of life?  If anything, he extended the clan way of life to a greater number of people than had ever experienced it before.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arvanna on 31 May 2014, 21:52:29
You have to forgive them but too many of the Crusader fans equate the Crusader Philosophy with the Clan way of life.  ::)
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: E. Icaza on 31 May 2014, 22:27:14
You have to forgive them but too many of the Crusader fans equate the Crusader Philosophy with the Clan way of life.  ::)

Neg.  Too many Clan fans fail to recognize that the Crusader philosophy is the Clan way of life.  The moment the Clans switched from "conquer and rule" to "appease and assimilate" they were doomed.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 31 May 2014, 23:53:44
You seem to forget that the Wolves did more conquering and ruling than any Crusader clan.  Besides, the Warden philosophy has more to do with protecting the IS than joining up with them.  Most, if not all, Wardens were perfectly happy sitting back in clan space doing clan things like the good clanners they were.  It's the Crusaders who insisted on directly interacting with the spheroids (and thereby allowing the spheroids to run off on them).
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 31 May 2014, 23:55:42
i see a lot of people claiming he sabotaged the invasion.. how?
he brought in more clans.. because the current ones were having trouble holding what they'd taken with their current forces.
he encouraged the clans to work with the worlds they conquered instead of terrorizing them.. because these were the people they were going to be ruling, and friendly populations are peaceful populations.
he enciouraged them to make use of accurate intel on the IS to better prepare to fight.
he arranged a one fight takes all deal to get terra for the clans as a whole to avoid wasteful fighting.
he encouraged the clans to bring everything they had and stockpile plenty of supplies for said fight.
he warned the other clans that comstar was not a pushover.

he did tons to try and make the invasion work. yet he's being called a traitor because the rest of the clans decided to be idiots and ignore his advice?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: BirdofPrey on 01 June 2014, 00:51:20
That first point is dubious since he paired clans hostile to each other in each invasion corridor.   Two clans fighting each other would undermine conquest a bit.

The rest of the points are sound.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: A. Lurker on 01 June 2014, 01:25:57
Neg.  Too many Clan fans fail to recognize that the Crusader philosophy is the Clan way of life.  The moment the Clans switched from "conquer and rule" to "appease and assimilate" they were doomed.

So in all those decades before Operation Revival...whom did the Clans, as a collective entity, "conquer and rule"? I mean, it's not exactly as though the Clans' sphere of influence exactly expanded by leaps and bounds in all that time, so if that was really the Way of the Clans, it doesn't seem to have worked all that well even before the invasion...
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 01 June 2014, 01:39:32
That first point is dubious since he paired clans hostile to each other in each invasion corridor.   Two clans fighting each other would undermine conquest a bit.
actually, the rivalry would just drive both to do better in the conquest. as long as there is still unclaimed territory the grouping would have just been a source of motivation. once conquest was over the combo would cause problems, that that would be expected anyway.. whether the extra clans came in or not. (since those clans left behind would sart vying for territory either in the homeworlds.. or in the areas of the IS not claimed by initial invading clans. the end result, had the clans conquered everything as they'd wanted, would have been homeworlds politics writ large anyway..)

you'll notice that there were very few cases of the two clans sharing an OZ actually fighting each other during the invasion? we even see the nova cats and jaguars working jointly to invade Luthien. the cats did do a few trials of possession for worlds they needed for strategic purposes, but trials of that sort were pretty typical of the clans.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arvanna on 01 June 2014, 02:44:53
So in all those decades before Operation Revival...whom did the Clans, as a collective entity, "conquer and rule"? I mean, it's not exactly as though the Clans' sphere of influence exactly expanded by leaps and bounds in all that time, so if that was really the Way of the Clans, it doesn't seem to have worked all that well even before the invasion...
[/quote

Good point and if the Truce amounted to 3 generations of warriors not being allowed to fight the IS being genocide then what about the generations before Revival?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 01 June 2014, 04:44:53
The charges of genocide weren't based on any actual acts. Even the most fanatic crusader on this thread would admit they were made up.

The heart of this discussion in my opinion, is that from the crusader-fans POV, the fact that that the crusaders lied, cheat, and manipulated the wolf is perfectly acceptable (even the trial of refusal against the invasion pitted the wolf forces to be outnumbered 4 to 1); but when Ulric returns the favor, it's TREASON!
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 01 June 2014, 12:45:13
The charges of genocide weren't based on any actual acts. Even the most fanatic crusader on this thread would admit they were made up.

What do you think of Vlad's attempt at grinding Omega Galaxy down in the Peripheries? 

Was that kosher?

The heart of this discussion in my opinion, is that from the crusader-fans POV, the fact that that the crusaders lied, cheat, and manipulated the wolf is perfectly acceptable (even the trial of refusal against the invasion pitted the wolf forces to be outnumbered 4 to 1); but when Ulric returns the favor, it's TREASON!

The Refusal War was Ulric.  I've pointed out and even posted quoted citations from source material that says this.  Ulric, quite literally, killed Clan Wolf.

The heart of the discussion is that because the 'Warden' philosophy is considered the 'good' one by many fans, any Warden character is exonerated.

Vlad killed far, far, less Wolves than Ulric ever did and it wasn't even intentional and yet there's far more of an outcry against Vlad than Ulric will ever get.

Why?  Because Vlad is 'evil' because he's a 'Crusader'
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 01 June 2014, 17:40:42
What do you think of Vlad's attempt at grinding Omega Galaxy down in the Peripheries? 

Was that kosher?
Hmm? When did Vald's Khanship became part of the discussion?
In the hopes that you aren't simply using Vald as a strawman, I'll respond: yeah, it's "Kosher".
It wasn't very nice, but no treason. They were his troops to command, just like the crusaders were UK&BW's troops (the crusaders attempt to dislodge them by trials of positions were quite unsuccessful). If the wardens weren't a punching bag in his clan, he might even had to face ToPs and ToGs; instead, his poor treatment of them led to losing what remained of that galaxy. But he got rid of the wardens (which was his aim all along), and they found a home in the warden CHH; so a win-win result I guess...

The Refusal War was Ulric.  I've pointed out and even posted quoted citations from source material that says this.  Ulric, quite literally, killed Clan Wolf.
Than they must absorbed parts of clan Hydra, because when I look at the faction list, it seems two more clan Wolf, have taken it's place. HAIL HYDRAWOLF!  >:D

The heart of the discussion is that because the 'Warden' philosophy is considered the 'good' one by many fans, any Warden character is exonerated.
No, the problem is when something like this comes up:
All Wardens are traitors to the Way of the Clans.
Where every warden is guilty of treason, automatically.
Vlad killed far, far, less Wolves than Ulric ever did and it wasn't even intentional and yet there's far more of an outcry against Vlad than Ulric will ever get.
Again, with Vlad... When did Vlad got into this?
A. It was very much intentional. Unlike the falcons (and other clans, occasionally) custom of "blooding" inexperienced units, Vlad intention was for the wardens to be destroyed, or at the very least disgraced; instead they joined with CHH...

B. Atleast Ulric had to balls to lead the crusaders into battle; more than I can say for Vlad.

Why?  Because Vlad is 'evil' because he's a 'Crusader'
Whn did someone here called Vlad "evil"?
I'd use words like "bitter" or "disillusioned".
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: FedSunsBorn on 01 June 2014, 21:36:40
The only single thing that I might see as a mistake on Ulric's part would be the 15 year long truce. For the Clans, that is way, way too long since their generations are so much shorter than what's typical in the Inner Sphere. I think 10 years would have been better or possibly even just 5 years....of course, the Inner Sphere would have hated it but that still would have given everyone a bit of a breather. Everything else...I would say he did fine in terms of how the Clans operate.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 01 June 2014, 21:43:17
15 years is a hell of a lot shorter than the amount of time the Clans waited before Op Revival, or even between the Dragoon Compromise and Revival.  Also, if thy'd just listened to Ulric, they'd have beaten the ComGuard (as the Wolves did) and gained Terra in the bargain.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 01 June 2014, 22:36:02
Indeed.  Fifteen years is a small slice of time that has passed in-universe since Tukayyid.  Ulric Kerensky's bargain impeded things a little bit, but mostly because everyone else involved proved incapable of producing positve results in battle with the ComGuards.  It was by no means forever. 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: misterpants on 01 June 2014, 23:24:25
Given the Trial System as the law of the land, my read was Ulric wasn't a traitor until he lost the Refusal war.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 02 June 2014, 00:35:04
But after victory the Jade Falcons Khans claimed that it was actually a trial of Ansorption.  So technically they did not prove anything about Ulric, they gave that up by playing fast and loose with the focus of the trial after the fact.  And then Vlad overturned that as well.  Crichell and Chistu did nothing that an unbloodnamed warrior could not undo.  And Ulric did not betray the Clans.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: FedComGirl on 02 June 2014, 02:15:10
Good point and if the Truce amounted to 3 generations of warriors not being allowed to fight the IS being genocide then what about the generations before Revival?

If not being able to attack over a Truce line for 15 years leaving lots of other targets is Genocide what were the Clans doing in the two and a half centuries before they invaded?  ??? 

They were fighting each other and bandits. Now they also have IS forces to fight. There was no Genocide. It was a made up charge that all the Crusaders could get behind to disgrace Ulric.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 02 June 2014, 04:48:42
The only single thing that I might see as a mistake on Ulric's part would be the 15 year long truce. For the Clans, that is way, way too long since their generations are so much shorter than what's typical in the Inner Sphere. I think 10 years would have been better or possibly even just 5 years....of course, the Inner Sphere would have hated it but that still would have given everyone a bit of a breather. Everything else...I would say he did fine in terms of how the Clans operate.
Heavy risk (15yr)... But the prize!!! (Terra)
It was essentially a trial for "winning" the invasion; or at least completing a very important part of it.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: misterpants on 02 June 2014, 09:23:16
But after victory the Jade Falcons Khans claimed that it was actually a trial of Ansorption.  So technically they did not prove anything about Ulric, they gave that up by playing fast and loose with the focus of the trial after the fact.  And then Vlad overturned that as well.  Crichell and Chistu did nothing that an unbloodnamed warrior could not undo.

That sounds...convoluted. Did the source books ever officially state the end status of the trial after all of that?

Quote
And Ulric did not betray the Clans

Honestly, the Trial system makes most of this discussion moot for every Clanner. (Outside looking in is another story.)  It comes down to that binary question of:

Did Ulric win his ToR? Then he would not be a traitor.

Did Ulric lose his ToR? Then he would be a traitor.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: skiltao on 02 June 2014, 15:06:52
Ulric had to order the Jaguars to leave the battle.  He was not 'solicited' by their forces once their Khans appeared to be out of commission, nor did they act upon 'advice'.  They wished to remain and continue to fight.  Now, either Ulric had no authority (as you suggested in the above quote) and overstepped his boundaries here or he had authority and used none of it except for this rare occurrence and the entire Trial portion for Clan Wolf.
<snip>
Ulric could have enforced minimum bids or limited the significant cuts to the bids, among other things.
<snip>
He didn't personally agree with the invasion, so he used his position as leader of the invasion to stop it. 
<snip>
Ulric was ilKhan.  He was responsible for the entire trial, and was not simply an advisor.

Ordering the Jags to withdraw from a campaign is within the Ilkhan's purview. However, he cannot advise how they should withdraw unless invited to do so. (Lost Destiny indicates that Ulric was responsible for the terms of the Trial but not for its execution. For the Trial itself, he was in fact limited to an advisory role. The other Khans do not appear to fault him for failing to volunteer advice.)

Assuming you aren't discussing this in-character, there are three problems with your argument. First, the Truce merely delays the invasion; it does not stop it. Second, a victory on Tukayyid (potential Warden IlClan) was not incompatible with Ulric's agenda. Third, assuming* that Ulric could have guaranteed the victory, guaranteed victory is antithetical to the Clan Way; the kind of meddling you suggest would undercut Ulric's political capital, and may have been sufficient grounds for his removal.

*Source for the IlKhan being able to dictate bidding limits?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 02 June 2014, 16:56:13
Did Ulric win his ToR? Then he would not be a traitor.

Did Ulric lose his ToR? Then he would be a traitor.
Except the trial wasn't about treason... It was about a ridiculous charge of genocide, that even the accusers didn't believe in and expected for Ulric to dismiss (which was well within his right as ilKhan); instead he blow it out of proportion, and turned it into a life or death trial for the falcons. Even if he lost, no one would've seriously consider him guilty of genocide.

The falcons didn't have to be drawn into a mutual trial of annihilation.
It's like arguing with your friend about who's  the best power rangers. You say the white ranger, he says the green ranger. Than he pulls out a knife. You could pull out a baseball bat and escalate the argument; but the smart thing would be to simply say "green ranger it is".
The falcons could've "throw" the trial by responding to Ulric clan-bid, by purposely underbidding. Instead of risking their entire clan on a trial whose results aren't really that important, they could've bid a Solhama cluster; than clan Wolf would've had to bid down to a more "saner" bid, or else the clans would never let them live down  the "it took the entire wolf touman to beat a single falcon solhama cluster...".
Than again, that would require the falcons choosing the thought-out, calculated, common-sense and sane option...
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 02 June 2014, 17:25:25
That sounds...convoluted. Did the source books ever officially state the end status of the trial after all of that?

Honestly, the Trial system makes most of this discussion moot for every Clanner. (Outside looking in is another story.)  It comes down to that binary question of:

Did Ulric win his ToR? Then he would not be a traitor.

Did Ulric lose his ToR? Then he would be a traitor.

It is convoluted.  :)  Off the top of my head I cannot recall a source confirming the results as the original charges are concerned.

The Trial was initially a Trial of Refusal against the charges of Genocide against the Clans.  But after narrowly winning the trial through a great deal of treachery in the form of artillery attacks after a batchall for honorable combat had been issued, the Jade Falcon Khans announced that it was not a Trial of Refusal but a Trial of Absorption, and the Falcons were the victors, absorbing Clan Wolf.  The Grand Council cosigned this. 

They then broke them off into an attempted pet Clan called Clan Jade Wolf and were smug to have subdued the Wolf until Vlad who would become Khan Vlad Ward in time fought and killed the treacherous saKhan of the Falcons to reverse that decision, whereby he declared the foundation of what he basically called the true Clan Wolf, the surviving Crusaders and some Wardens as well.

Hopefully this is a clearer summation.  It comes from not only sourcebooks like ER: 3062 (and the older Fasa sources), but several novels as well.  Ulric Kerensky was a warrior born, as Vlad declared in the GC after becoming Khan.  No one could contradict him on that.  Even he agreed Ulric was not a traitor, I take from this. 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: FedComGirl on 02 June 2014, 17:29:20
Except the trial wasn't about treason... It was about a ridiculous charge of genocide, that even the accusers didn't believe in and expected for Ulric to dismiss (which was well within his right as ilKhan); instead he blow it out of proportion, and turned it into a life or death trial for the falcons. Even if he lost, no one would've seriously consider him guilty of genocide.


He couldn't. The charge would remain and fester within the crusaders. He had to fight it. And he also had no choice but to go big. They Crusaders were out to discredit him and destroy the truce. If he had bid anything less than Clan Wolf the odds would have been so against him that he couldn't win. As it was it was, the Jade Falcons only won because of unClanlike tactics. Technically since Ulric lost he was a traitor but the Critchel? never pushed that because if he did his tactics would have been called into question and another trial of refusal launched that the Falcon's couldn't win. Instead he made it a Trial of Absorption.


Quote
The falcons didn't have to be drawn into a mutual trial of annihilation.
It's like arguing with your friend about who's  the best power rangers. You say the white ranger, he says the green ranger. Than he pulls out a knife. You could pull out a baseball bat and escalate the argument; but the smart thing would be to simply say "green ranger it is".
The falcons could've "throw" the trial by responding to Ulric clan-bid, by purposely underbidding. Instead of risking their entire clan on a trial whose results aren't really that important, they could've bid a Solhama cluster; than clan Wolf would've had to bid down to a more "saner" bid, or else the clans would never let them live down  the "it took the entire wolf touman to beat a single falcon solhama cluster...".
Than again, that would require the falcons choosing the thought-out, calculated, common-sense and sane option...

The Falcons and Wolves weren't friends. They were allied against a mutual enemy but not friends.
The results of the trial were also incredibly important. If Ulric was disgraced and the Truce invalidated the invasion would have resumed. That's what the Crusaders wanted. The Falcons didn't want to throw the trial. They wanted to win and discredit Ulric and destroy the truce. That's why the charge of genocide int he first place. If they underbid and Ulric won the truce would have remained. Why even bring Ulric up on charges if they were going to let him win? And like I said above nothing else but bidding Clan Wolf would have given Ulric a chance to win. The Crusaders would have seen to it that Ulric's forces faced more than they could handle. Except they never expected him to bid an entire Clan. That was once force they couldn't easily over whelm.

Since Ulric lost, the invasion could have restarted but no clan was in good enough shape except  Phelan's Wolves and they had their orders. That satisfied the Warden in Ulrich but even if he'd won the invasion would have resumed unless outside events prevented it. Like the forming of the 2nd Star League. That's something I would love to know how Ulric handled. 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Warpimp on 02 June 2014, 18:23:41
That is one of the questions I would like to know. What di Ulric do tobprepare the CLANS for battle against the Inner Sphere? He must have considered that the IS would launch a counter attack at some point. In faxt that was half the point od the Truce. The truce by the way wouldn't have just made Wolf the ilClan the Clans would have had to trial for Terra in a war that would make the refusal war look like a border dust up.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 02 June 2014, 20:26:31
As we'll as they listened to his advice on Tukayyid, what do you think these greatest-warrior-society-in-history, homo sapiens parabellum types would have said when Ulric suggested they prepare themselves for a counterattack by dirty spheroid surats?  I'm pretty sure it would've been along the likes of "Clan Wolf can do as they please if they fear mongrel freebirths, clan Jade Falcon(/Smoke Jaguar/etc) fears no one!" 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Warpimp on 02 June 2014, 21:07:55
The thing is, Ulric has shown time and time again that he can manipulate any situation to his desired ends. I don't doubt his competence. During all of this time he never manipulated this gs to help the Clans that he was the leader of, win despite themselves.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 02 June 2014, 22:15:46
I can concede that Ulric is not above politically rocking someone right where you get the most points, if they are not paying attention to the moves he can possibly make, even if cornered politically. 

Example: Jade Falcons thought a cluster on cluster battle was about to ensue, it seems.  The Falcons had no idea Ulric was going to go for the throat in his defense.  But he understood that it was not about his defense, it was about crippling the Crusader movement in a worse way than the Falcons and others had attempted to undermine the Warden leadership of Clan Wolf for so long.  From ilKhan Leo Showers onward.  By hitting the Falcons as hard as he did, leaving both Clans susceptible to calls for Absorption at worst, he made Smoke Jaguar the dominant Clan in the process.  Which lead to a growing focus on them as the enemy of everyone in existence, culminating in the Twilight of the Clans novels and the demise of the Jags. 

He was a real bastard.  But he did not betray the Clans.  Ulric fought the Crusaders as they fought him, and in the end he won to a certain extent.    His spawn was not wiped out, Katya Kerensky is (errr, was) living proof.  That would be part of the punishment for his crimes against the Clans, were they true.  We have no word about his sibkos, but I would not be surprised if he did not have many in both Wolf Clans.  Just because why not? 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 03 June 2014, 12:22:43
Hmm? When did Vald's Khanship became part of the discussion?

There's been past debates on these boards where Vlad's treatment of the Wardens in the '60s were heavily criticized. Many of the same people have defended Ulric for doing the same thing, on a grand scale.

Than they must absorbed parts of clan Hydra, because when I look at the faction list, it seems two more clan Wolf, have taken it's place. HAIL HYDRAWOLF!  >:D

Clan Wolf was Absorbed on Dec 10th 3057, at which point it had ceased to exist.  Had it not been for Vlad outmaneuvering Ulric's plan at the last step, Clan Wolf would not have been resurrected.

While there are many 'Wolf' Factions, under Clan Law:
-  Clan Wolf (in Exile) are technically former Falcons, as they were Abjured by their saKhan, Vandervan Chistu, on Wotan.
-  Nicholas Kerensky's Clan Wolf is dead.  It was Absorbed on Dec. 10th 3057 for being guilty of High Treason.
-  The 21st Clan, Clan Jade Wolf, ceased to exist ~24th of Dec. 3057
-  The 22nd Clan, Clan Wolf, was founded by Khan Vlad Ward of Clan Jade Wolf.

Ordering the Jags to withdraw from a campaign is within the Ilkhan's purview. However, he cannot advise how they should withdraw unless invited to do so. (Lost Destiny indicates that Ulric was responsible for the terms of the Trial but not for its execution. For the Trial itself, he was in fact limited to an advisory role. The other Khans do not appear to fault him for failing to volunteer advice.)

Ulric ordered only Alpha and Beta Galaxies to withdraw.  Beta complied, while Alpha continued to fight and was nearly wiped out as a result.

...interestingly enough, the Comstar sourcebook notes that the Smoke Jaguars nearly crippled Comstar and won the Clans a victory on Tukayyid as Alpha Galaxy managed to get within 30km of Focht's Command bunker before they were wiped out.


Assuming you aren't discussing this in-character, there are three problems with your argument. First, the Truce merely delays the invasion; it does not stop it. Second, a victory on Tukayyid (potential Warden IlClan) was not incompatible with Ulric's agenda. Third, assuming* that Ulric could have guaranteed the victory, guaranteed victory is antithetical to the Clan Way; the kind of meddling you suggest would undercut Ulric's political capital, and may have been sufficient grounds for his removal.

*Source for the IlKhan being able to dictate bidding limits?

1)  Multiple sources state that Tukayyid bought the Inner Sphere significant time to better prepare a defense.  The charge that finally convicted Ulric was based around the 15 year Truce, as it was too long due to the quicker generations the Clans have.  Finally, halting the Invasion also allowed Ulric more time to prevent the Invasion.  See the Refusal War.

2)  It is absolutely incompatible with Ulric's agenda.  See Warriors of Kerensky, Field Manual: Warden Clans, or Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans.  The Wolf Clan Sourcebook too.  The Falcon and The Wolf outright states it's against everything he believes in.  The Warden belief is to remain outside the Inner Sphere and only return until invited as a new Star League's Defense Force.  The goal of the Invasion was to take Terra- so a victory by the Clans on Tukayyid would mean the Invasion was a success which is against everything Ulric believed in.  His ensuring a Clan Wolf victory was simply a safety net should the Clans succeed:  He'd be able to minimize the damage of the Clans conquering the Inner Sphere.

Again, Phelan asks why Natasha and Ulric are trying to 'win' in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy.  It's the same reason that Phelan himself joins Clan Wolf:  It's to minimize damage.  Natasha (as I recall) states that IF they can't stop the Inner Sphere from falling to the Clans, falling to a Warden Clan is better than falling to a Crusader one.   

3)  Ulric guaranteed a defeat instead of doing his job.  Phelan himself states on Page 54 of Warriors of Kerensky something to the effect of:  "Ulric abused his position as ilKhan to further the Warden cause on Tukayyid"

*  -  The Batchall entries in any Clan sourcebook (such as Warriors of Kerensky, Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans or the Wolf Clan Sourcebook) .  The Attacker sets the cutdown and minimum bids, and the Subcommanders then bid amongst themselves.  See page 54 of  Warriors of Kerensky under the ilKhan section:  Phelan states that the ilKhan cannot do anything about internal bidding by on the forces on the ground within a Clan.  I.e, he cannot prevent the internal bidding between Alpha and Beta Galaxies within Smoke Jaguar, but he can influence External bidding between, say, Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat.

Both of which, by the way, are noted in the Comstar sourcebook (among other sources on Tukayyid) that they bidded dangerously close to the cutdown (which would have been set by Ulric...) to attempt at regaining their honour after their defeat at Luthien.

And again, we know Ulric used his position as ilKhan to engineer a loss from both Focht (Lost Destiny) and Phelan (Warriors of Kerensky)


Now that I've provided numerous examples and sources- including past posts in this thread- where are your sources?  I see plenty of people defending Ulric, and even so far as going to say he didn't work against the invasion. 

Do you have a source that says that Ulric did his job on Tukayyid?  That he actively tried to say, help the Clans win?

I've seen people suggest that he activated reserve Clans to help out the Invasion but page 20 (as I recall) of Warriors of Kerensky has Phelan stating that Ulric finally activated reserve Clans (Nova Cats, Steel Vipers and Diamond Sharks) because he was pressured to do so by the other Clans' Khans. 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Neo-Tanuki on 03 June 2014, 13:31:25
I have two opinions on this issue-one from an 'in-universe' point of view and one from my perspective as someone reading the novels and sourcebook fiction.

In-universe, Ulric never denied he was a Warden; he opposed the Invasion prior to its launch and even fought the Trial of Refusal against the go-vote.

Clan culture is competitive. Once Clan Wolf was in the Invasion, Ulric used adaptability and flexibiity to increase his Clan's power and status by conquering more worlds than the other invaders.

So was he a traitor? I don't see it that way because it was the other Crusader Clans who made him IlKhan after Leo Showers' death, and he made no secret about his feelings about the invasion.

I DO think he was a terrible choice as IlKhan if the Crusaders wanted to succeed. His opposition to the invasion was clear; once in charge he paired the Falcons and Jaguars with reserve Clans they hated and were certain to have problems cooperating with. He deliberately set up the other Invaders into difficult situations to provide the Wolves with an advantage. At every turn, Ulric used his position to enhance the Wolves at the expense of the other Invaders.

But that said, I think he was a hypocrite, at least based on the post-Invasion fiction. In the BoK trilogy, he goes on and on how much better the Wolves treat their conquered worlds than the other Invaders, and why it's so important the Wolves dominate so that the Inner Sphere is happy and content under Wolf rule. But he does nothing to stop Vlad beating an old man nearly to death for the crime of begging for help after the Wolves razed their city, and he doesn't seem to have made any efforts to reign in the excesses of Wolf commanders like Star Colonel Marcos Radick (who, IIRC, was specifically targeted by Rasalhague forces for his brutality toward conquered populations. For all his high-minded speeches, Ulric's main goal to me seems to have simply been to advance the power and status of the Wolves. So yeah, an outstanding Khan for the Wolves, but a lousy IlKhan for the Clans as a whole, in my opinion.

From a fiction/meta standpoint, the scene where the Crusaders VOLUNTARILY elect Ulric as supreme leader was absurd, and Stackpole's rationalization in the narrative was ridiculous. "Oh, we'll appoint a second-in-command from our ranks who will make Ulric do exactly what we say, so we'll control everything!" Really?

I found a lot of the rationalizations for the Wolves' behavior in the early Clan Invasion sourcebooks and fiction dubious. The whole idea of them opposing the Invasion and then being automatically granted a corridor, Ulric's election as IlKhan...it really felt like to me like the writers at that time were trying to reconcile the whole "The Wolves are the best fighters" and "The Wolves are the nice Clan who likes the Inner Sphere" themes, and were not doing it well. I don't like Vlad Ward as a character at all, but I find the descriptions of the Wolves under his rule a lot more believable (and interesting, especially in the Wars of Reaving).
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 03 June 2014, 21:21:32
There's been past debates on these boards where Vlad's treatment of the Wardens in the '60s were heavily criticized. Many of the same people have defended Ulric for doing the same thing, on a grand scale.

Big difference between the two that you are ignoring.  Ulric gave the Crusaders the opportunities to earn glory - it wasn't his fault they couldn't get the job done, while Vlad sidelined the Wardens as soon as possible.

Quote
-  Clan Wolf (in Exile) are technically former Falcons, as they were Abjured by their saKhan, Vandervan Chistu, on Wotan.

After he illegally changed a Trial of Refusal into a Trial of Absorption.  (Note:  the Falcons weren't just representing themselves in the trial, they were representing the Grand Council.  Chistu never had the authority to make the change on his own.)

Quote
-  Nicholas Kerensky's Clan Wolf is dead.  It was Absorbed on Dec. 10th 3057 for being guilty of High Treason.

Completely incorrect.  If they had been guilty of high treason it would have been a Trial of Annihilation not Absorption.

Quote
Ulric ordered only Alpha and Beta Galaxies to withdraw.  Beta complied, while Alpha continued to fight and was nearly wiped out as a result.

The Smoke Jaguars only deployed elements of Alpha and Beta Galaxies to Tukayyid.  If the Smoke Jaguars were going to ignore an order that made perfect sense and the ilKhan's order would have mitigated their disgrace ("we didn't want to withdraw but the ilKhan ordered us to, we had no choice but to obey"), why would they bother heeding any advice given by him?

Quote
...interestingly enough, the Comstar sourcebook notes that the Smoke Jaguars nearly crippled Comstar and won the Clans a victory on Tukayyid as Alpha Galaxy managed to get within 30km of Focht's Command bunker before they were wiped out.

Pure speculation as to whether the remnants of the 122nd Striker Cluster would have been able to defeat Focht and his bodyguard unit.  Regardless it would likely have had little affect on the Smoke Jaguar's eventual defeat.  However, there is a good chance that Focht's defeat would have made things easier for the other Clans.

Quote
3)  Ulric guaranteed a defeat instead of doing his job.  Phelan himself states on Page 54 of Warriors of Kerensky something to the effect of:  "Ulric abused his position as ilKhan to further the Warden cause on Tukayyid"

No matter how much you might want it otherwise, the Warden cause, no matter how pro-IS, was still a Clan cause.  His actions (or inactions) may have hurt the Crusader cause but they certainly helped the Warden cause.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 04 June 2014, 01:25:57
Big difference between the two that you are ignoring.  Ulric gave the Crusaders the opportunities to earn glory - it wasn't his fault they couldn't get the job done, while Vlad sidelined the Wardens as soon as possible.

Thank you for proving my point for Solmanian.

After he illegally changed a Trial of Refusal into a Trial of Absorption.  (Note:  the Falcons weren't just representing themselves in the trial, they were representing the Grand Council.  Chistu never had the authority to make the change on his own.)

Source, please? 

Ulric did it by bidding all of Clan Wolf

Here:

Quote
Bred for War

"Ah, but it is."  Ulric reached out and touched four worlds in the Jade Falcon occupation zone. "I am going to hit you on Colmar, Dompaire, Sudaten, and Zoetermeer.  After I have beaten you there, I will push up and through your occupation zone.  To defend your position, you will have to defeat me throughout your zone."

[Elias Chrichell] "And I will attack back into your zone."

"Go ahead.  What use will our worlds be to you when I have destroyed your Galaxies?"

"You are telling me you will turn this contest into a Trial of Absorption!"

"No, it is a Trial of Refusal- a refusal to let you destroy the Clans.  If the Wolves perish to save the rest, so be it."
 
Crichell's face began to turn red.  "This is madness, Ulric.  It is suicidal."

[Ulric then explains how Phelan and Natasha are examples of why Inner Sphere warriors are better than Clan: They know how to live, 'not make war'

[Elias] "You cannot win"

"Nor can you"

Natasha stepped forward.  "Phelan, please escort Khan Elias from this place.  He has not bargained well, but the bidding is done.  We choose to bid everything Clan Wolf has to stop him, and the Jade Falcons must bid just as high if they hope to surive."

Note that:

1)  Elias immediately comes to the conclusion that Ulric has turned the Trial of Refusal into a Trial of Absorption when the full extent of the bid is revealed.
2)  Ulric is not surprised by this conclusion.  Nor is Natasha or Phelan.  Instead, Ulric's response to the exclamation that the Trial is now one of Absorption is that sacrificing Clan Wolf is worth preventing a renewed invasion.  (Ulric, Phelan and Natasha all agree on pitting the two Clans in a fight to the death earlier in the book).
3)  Natasha states that should the Jade Falcons underbid (and throw the Trial as Solmanian suggested earlier in the thread) the Jade Falcons would die.  I.e, Be Absorbed.




Completely incorrect.  If they had been guilty of high treason it would have been a Trial of Annihilation not Absorption.

Source, please?

Because Ulric was found guilty of High Treason already and his punishment was simply being removed from the ilKhan position.

On the page preceding my quote from Bred for War above, there was no intended punishment against Clan Wolf for losing the Trial of Refusal:

Quote
Bred for War

The leader of the Wolves straightened up again, giving Quarell a kick to close the window.  "You have your Peregrine Galaxy down there, quiaff?"

"You are no longer ilKhan, Ulric.  I am not obliged to answer your questions about my troop dispositions."  Crichell tugged at his tunic to straighten it, but sweat had already begun to darken the green garment beneath the Khan's armpits.  He turned to glare at Natasha.  "We will stop you at Colmar, then a new ilKhan will be elected."

"Which you expect to be you."

"That may be."

Ulric folded his arms across his chest.  "Then I will challenge the election, and you will have to defend again."

Crichell frowned heavily.  "Have I misjudged you Wolves?"

From the above, we can see that (as The Falcon and the Wolf states) that the Jade Falcons had assumed the Refusal was going to be a simple Trial, and should they defeat Ulric and the Wolves, Ulric would remain a Star Colonel and the Invasion would resume.

There was no intention of killing Ulric, no reprisals against Clan Wolf.  The charges were only brought against Ulric to remove him from the ilKhan position in the first place so the Invasion could resume.

With the Falcons unable to resume the Invasion however... that High Treason verdict becomes a lot more serious as the Clans would have to turn their attention on something other than the Inner Sphere.

Which is how Ulric intended it-  that was the stick he attempted to use on Vlad to force him to flee to Arc Royal with the survivors.

 
The Smoke Jaguars only deployed elements of Alpha and Beta Galaxies to Tukayyid.  If the Smoke Jaguars were going to ignore an order that made perfect sense and the ilKhan's order would have mitigated their disgrace ("we didn't want to withdraw but the ilKhan ordered us to, we had no choice but to obey"), why would they bother heeding any advice given by him?

My point is that it's often argued that Ulric could not have given orders on Tukayyid.

Yet he did, and Beta Galaxy obeyed.  Why didn't he order the Sharks to withdraw?  They were virtually exterminated as a Clan on Tukayyid- taking far more losses than the Jaguars did.

It's not stated out right, but the sole time Ulric ordered a Clan other than Wolf to do something... it was to withdraw to 'save' the Clan.  Personally, I think it was to save the Comguards.

 
Pure speculation as to whether the remnants of the 122nd Striker Cluster would have been able to defeat Focht and his bodyguard unit.  Regardless it would likely have had little affect on the Smoke Jaguar's eventual defeat.  However, there is a good chance that Focht's defeat would have made things easier for the other Clans.

They certainly could have.  Focht had no defenses, as he hoped to draw the least amount of attention to himself- he had a single 'mech (His own, an Atlas).

Comstar is quite clear that should the Jaguars have found Focht, they would have very likely lost on Tukayyid.

No matter how much you might want it otherwise, the Warden cause, no matter how pro-IS, was still a Clan cause.  His actions (or inactions) may have hurt the Crusader cause but they certainly helped the Warden cause.

Which is personal opinion, and not something I'm debating.  I'm saying Ulric did not make an honest attempt to lead the Crusaders to victory over the Inner Sphere on Tukayyid and in fact worked against them. 

According to Phelan, that's abuse of his power as ilKhan.  Is that traitorous?  I personally think it is to a degree. 

Although I think the real crime Ulric committed was the Refusal War.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: skiltao on 04 June 2014, 02:17:01
Ulric ordered only Alpha and Beta Galaxies to withdraw.  Beta complied, while Alpha continued to fight and was nearly wiped out as a result.

He ordered a high-level strategy which is, as I said, within his purview. It does not show that anything else was within his purview.

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...interestingly enough, the Comstar sourcebook notes that the Smoke Jaguars nearly crippled Comstar and won the Clans a victory on Tukayyid as Alpha Galaxy managed to get within 30km of Focht's Command bunker before they were wiped out.

That they were wiped out rather vindicates Ulric's order. That they disobeyed the order undercuts the notion that he could exert any real control over the other Clans.

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1)  Multiple sources state that Tukayyid bought the Inner Sphere significant time to better prepare a defense.  The charge that finally convicted Ulric was based around the 15 year Truce, as it was too long due to the quicker generations the Clans have.  Finally, halting the Invasion also allowed Ulric more time to prevent the Invasion.  See the Refusal War.

2)  It is absolutely incompatible with Ulric's agenda.  See Warriors of Kerensky, Field Manual: Warden Clans, or Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans.  The Wolf Clan Sourcebook too.  The Falcon and The Wolf outright states it's against everything he believes in.  The Warden belief is to remain outside the Inner Sphere and only return until invited as a new Star League's Defense Force.  The goal of the Invasion was to take Terra- so a victory by the Clans on Tukayyid would mean the Invasion was a success which is against everything Ulric believed in.  His ensuring a Clan Wolf victory was simply a safety net should the Clans succeed:  He'd be able to minimize the damage of the Clans conquering the Inner Sphere.

Again, Phelan asks why Natasha and Ulric are trying to 'win' in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy.  It's the same reason that Phelan himself joins Clan Wolf:  It's to minimize damage.  Natasha (as I recall) states that IF they can't stop the Inner Sphere from falling to the Clans, falling to a Warden Clan is better than falling to a Crusader one.   

The invasion has already happened, Ulric cannot 'prevent' it. I agree that his goal is to minimize damage--or rather, more specifically (see Phelan during his speech at the end of Lost Destiny) to integrate the Clans into the Inner Sphere as smoothly as possible. Anyone shown to be as Machiavellian as Ulric would have planned multiple acceptable paths to that end; yes, losing Tukayyid is one such path, but winning Tukayyid (with Wolves in control of the integration) is another such path. I would even say that losing was the riskier path.

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3)  Ulric guaranteed a defeat instead of doing his job.  Phelan himself states on Page 54 of Warriors of Kerensky something to the effect of:  "Ulric abused his position as ilKhan to further the Warden cause on Tukayyid"

Focht, who has a better understanding of both politics and grand strategy than Phelan does, disagrees in their conversation after the battle. Focht's assessment is that the Khans pushed Ulric to the side. Given your example with the Khanless Jag galaxies earlier, it seems safe to say Ulric would have been ignored even if he had given any orders.

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*  -  The Batchall entries in any Clan sourcebook (such as Warriors of Kerensky, Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans or the Wolf Clan Sourcebook) .  The Attacker sets the cutdown and minimum bids, and the Subcommanders then bid amongst themselves.  See page 54 of  Warriors of Kerensky under the ilKhan section:  Phelan states that the ilKhan cannot do anything about internal bidding by on the forces on the ground within a Clan.  I.e, he cannot prevent the internal bidding between Alpha and Beta Galaxies within Smoke Jaguar, but he can influence External bidding between, say, Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat.

Both of which, by the way, are noted in the Comstar sourcebook (among other sources on Tukayyid) that they bidded dangerously close to the cutdown (which would have been set by Ulric...) to attempt at regaining their honour after their defeat at Luthien.

The "cutdown" is an informal estimate of the force necessary to defeat a given force. It is not a formal limit. Is there actual text somewhere which specifically describes the setting of minimum bids? I'm not aware of any. (Had minimum bids been an actual thing, surely Natasha could not have bid a single unaugmented warrior for the conquest of Gunzberg.)

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And again, we know Ulric used his position as ilKhan to engineer a loss from both Focht (Lost Destiny) and Phelan (Warriors of Kerensky)

Suppose you foresee victory, with Crusader Clans strengthened and Warden Clans weakened; if you were to turn that into a victory which strengthens Warden Clans and weakens Crusader Clans, would that not serve the Warden agenda?

Anyways, Phelan (WoK) is referring to the terms and scope of the battle (the Truce, which the Grand Council applauds at the end of this book, and the effect that this level of death and misery has on the popular view of the Crusade); he is not referring to any (in)action Ulric took during the battle. As for Focht's claim that Ulric could have lead the Clans to victory, well, Ulric's whole point there is that the Khans don't listen to him. Phelan realizes that same point, again, during his closing speech.

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Now that I've provided numerous examples and sources- including past posts in this thread- where are your sources?  I see plenty of people defending Ulric, and even so far as going to say he didn't work against the invasion. 

Do you have a source that says that Ulric did his job on Tukayyid?  That he actively tried to say, help the Clans win?

The discussion between Ulric and Focht, after the battle, makes it quite clear that helping the other Clans wasn't Ulric's job. Now, I'm not saying he didn't undermine the other Clans! Of course he did. That same conversation hints how he goaded the Jag Khans into underbidding. (That's not treason in the Clans, though.) My argument is that 1) making the Crusaders experience war at this level, regardless of the battle's outcome, serves the Warden agenda; 2) that by weakening the other Clans, Ulric can make sure that both victory and defeat will work to his advantage; and 3) that Ulric couldn't have stopped the other Clans from hanging themselves anyways. I seem to be in complete agreement with you about what Ulric did? The things we are in disagreement about are discussed pretty plainly in Lost Destiny.

For what it's worth, Tukayyid isn't what makes Ulric a traitor. Sending Phelan's Wolves to defend the Inner Sphere? That makes Ulric a traitor.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 04 June 2014, 02:31:43
Thank you for proving my point for Solmanian.

Source, please? 

Ulric did it by bidding all of Clan Wolf

Here:

Note that:

1)  Elias immediately comes to the conclusion that Ulric has turned the Trial of Refusal into a Trial of Absorption when the full extent of the bid is revealed.
2)  Ulric is not surprised by this conclusion.  Nor is Natasha or Phelan.  Instead, Ulric's response to the exclamation that the Trial is now one of Absorption is that sacrificing Clan Wolf is worth preventing a renewed invasion.  (Ulric, Phelan and Natasha all agree on pitting the two Clans in a fight to the death earlier in the book).
3)  Natasha states that should the Jade Falcons underbid (and throw the Trial as Solmanian suggested earlier in the thread) the Jade Falcons would die.  I.e, Be Absorbed.



In the text you yourself quoted, Ulric disagrees with you:

"You are telling me you will turn this contest into a Trial of Absorption!"

"No, it is a Trial of Refusal- a refusal to let you destroy the Clans.  If the Wolves perish to save the rest, so be it."
 
Crichell's face began to turn red.  "This is madness, Ulric.  It is suicidal."



Emphasis mine.  That Ulric bid his whole clan might make it a de facto absorption, but that does not change the de jure nature of the trial.  Just as the Star Adders absorption of the Blood Spirits was a de facto annihilation because they didn't retain any of the absorbed assets, but that doesn't change the fact that it was legally an absorption.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 04 June 2014, 05:59:48
Note that:
2)  Ulric is not surprised by this conclusion.  Nor is Natasha or Phelan.  Instead, Ulric's response to the exclamation that the Trial is now one of Absorption is that sacrificing Clan Wolf is worth preventing a renewed invasion.  (Ulric, Phelan and Natasha all agree on pitting the two Clans in a fight to the death earlier in the book).

Did you even bother to read what you quoted?  He clearly states that it is still a Trial of Refusal NOT a Trial of Absorption.

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3)  Natasha states that should the Jade Falcons underbid (and throw the Trial as Solmanian suggested earlier in the thread) the Jade Falcons would die.  I.e, Be Absorbed.

Or it could be Natasha being Natasha throwing out barbs to throw the Falcon Khan off his game even more.

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Source, please?

Because Ulric was found guilty of High Treason already and his punishment was simply being removed from the ilKhan position.

Piece of advice reread what you write before you post.  You stated that Clan Wolf was absorbed for being guilty of high treason.  Which is completely incorrect.  That wasn't even Chistu's (or even Crichell's) rationale.  Chistu's justification was that Clan Wolf turned the Trial into a defacto Trial of Absorption when they bid everything in the Trial of Refusal.

Per Warrior of Kerensky (p64), the standard punishment for treason is execution of the individual and likely all progeny as well.  The entire trial was a political maneuver (and author fiat aside), trying to execute the most successful Warden Khan would have led to a backlash that the Crusaders weren't willing to risk.

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On the page preceding my quote from Bred for War above, there was no intended punishment against Clan Wolf for losing the Trial of Refusal:

From the above, we can see that (as The Falcon and the Wolf states) that the Jade Falcons had assumed the Refusal was going to be a simple Trial, and should they defeat Ulric and the Wolves, Ulric would remain a Star Colonel and the Invasion would resume.

There was no intention of killing Ulric, no reprisals against Clan Wolf.  The charges were only brought against Ulric to remove him from the ilKhan position in the first place so the Invasion could resume.

With the Falcons unable to resume the Invasion however... that High Treason verdict becomes a lot more serious as the Clans would have to turn their attention on something other than the Inner Sphere.

Which is how Ulric intended it-  that was the stick he attempted to use on Vlad to force him to flee to Arc Royal with the survivors.

So by your logic with the Falcons unable to resume the invasion, they are going to further weaken their forces by continuing the conflict against the Wolves which in turn would further delay their ability to resume the invasion and open their IS holdings to Viper predation.   ::)
 
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My point is that it's often argued that Ulric could not have given orders on Tukayyid.

Sure he could have given orders, but that doesn't mean the Clans had to obey him.  If he had tried to be the Clan equivalent of Focht overseeing all the individual Clan campaigns and giving directions, most of the other Clans would have simply ignored him.  Any attempt to make things easier for the Clans to win, such as forbidding Batchall during the battle, would have resulted in angry protest and possibly even a trial or two.  Not to mention that much of his advice while perfectly sound Wolf strategies/tactics were likely considered either too Wolf or chalcas by the other Clans.

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Yet he did, and Beta Galaxy obeyed.  Why didn't he order the Sharks to withdraw?  They were virtually exterminated as a Clan on Tukayyid- taking far more losses than the Jaguars did.

It's not stated out right, but the sole time Ulric ordered a Clan other than Wolf to do something... it was to withdraw to 'save' the Clan.  Personally, I think it was to save the Comguards.

The Sharks were in a completely different situation.  One, their Khans remained in command of their forces through the entire battle.  Two, while they had suffered some heavy losses, they were not in danger of being completely annihilated until the Smoke Jaguars' withdrawal enabled Focht to redeploy troops to cut the Clan off from their supplies.  Three, at that point the Diamond Shark Khans realized that they were in danger of being annihilated and voluntarily chose to withdraw (if they made it back to their DropShips).  As far as Ulric was aware, once the Jaguars withdrew, their ComGuard opponents could have been redeployed against any Clan including Clan Wolf.  Its also clearly stated that the Sixth Jaguar Dragoons viewed his withdrawal order as a Wolf insult rather than

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They certainly could have.  Focht had no defenses, as he hoped to draw the least amount of attention to himself- he had a single 'mech (His own, an Atlas).

Comstar is quite clear that should the Jaguars have found Focht, they would have very likely lost on Tukayyid.

So you consider a bodyguard unit of SL-era assault 'Mechs nothing?  Okaay.   ::)

The scenario gives the 122nd Striker Cluster 35 light Omnis (after the ambush) against 13 SL-era assault Mechs and some infantry.  Using zell, Focht and his bodyguards could have held their own.

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Which is personal opinion, and not something I'm debating.  I'm saying Ulric did not make an honest attempt to lead the Crusaders to victory over the Inner Sphere on Tukayyid and in fact worked against them.

Lead the Crusaders?  Since when did he ever promise to lead the Crusaders?  He may have been honorbound to lead the Clan Invasion but it was his choice as to how to lead it.  That said the other Khans always had the option of declaring a Trial against him (which they eventually did).

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According to Phelan, that's abuse of his power as ilKhan.  Is that traitorous?  I personally think it is to a degree. 

Although I think the real crime Ulric committed was the Refusal War.

Well as you are obviously a Crusader that is clearly your opinion but then to Crusaders Edwina Carns avoiding killing or even wounding Spheroid warriors is treasonous as well.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 04 June 2014, 16:36:13
Besides, and best of all, regardless of what the trial was, the original outcome of Ulric and his Wolf forces being obliterated on Wotan ending the Trial of Refusalsorption was reversed and therefore not valid.  The trial is moot and there can be no guilt.  Indeed, nothing in any canonical text indicates that anyone besides certain members of the Crusader political faction think of Ulric Kerensky as a traitor. 

Vlad Ward got beyond his own Crusader views to become an admirer of Ulric Kerensky, so there is hope, am I wrong for inferring that?

And on the other side of the coin...

If the Crusader Clans made it easy for others to manipulate them (and I assure all skeptical readers, the Crusaders did in fact show Ulric their "manipulation button" by consistently doing nothing or the opposite of what he advised them to do.  It does not take an evil genius to learn how to pull people's strings that way) then who is Ulric to pass up such a powerful weapon?  Just give the other Clans solid advice and watch the predictable results.  I sometimes wonder how Ulric kept a straight face through it all.   :)


Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Krieghund on 06 June 2014, 20:09:57
I think Ulric has shown fairly consistently throughout his career that he would put the IS over the Clans. From sitting in on Kerlin Ward telling the Dragoons to ignore the Grand Councils mandate, to setting his Clan up to fail the Refusal War. So yeah, I go with traitor.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 06 June 2014, 22:06:37
Vlad Ward got beyond his own Crusader views to become an admirer of Ulric Kerensky, so there is hope, am I wrong for inferring that?

Vlad remained an ignorant buffoon until his death at the hands of the Hell's Horses.  While Ulric critically weakened Clan Wolf following the Warden cause, Vlad tried his best to put Clan Wolf in the ground.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 06 June 2014, 23:13:57
I think Ulric has shown fairly consistently throughout his career that he would put the IS over the Clans. From sitting in on Kerlin Ward telling the Dragoons to ignore the Grand Councils mandate, to setting his Clan up to fail the Refusal War. So yeah, I go with traitor.
The entire Warden position is that the Clans should be protectors of the IS.  That's not unique to Ulric, it's a position that dates back to the SLDF-in-exile under Aleksandr Kerensky.


Quote from: Voice of Kerensky
To all citizens of the Inner Sphere do I, Aleksandr Kerensky, send greetings.


Know that I have taken the remnant of the Star League Defense Force which has remained true to its purpose beyond the boundaries of the Inner Sphere, beyond the Periphery. I have done this, neither out of disappointment with those whom we leave behind, nor out of spite or disdain, as some will say. No, we have left the Inner Sphere because we love it too much to see it destroyed. In the wake of the Usurper's coup, and the long, bitter fighting that came with it, I fear that my forces would do incalculable, possibly irreparable, harm to our society. We are sworn to ward the Star League and its subjects, not destroy it.


Thus, we have left the only homes we have ever known to place the destructive capability of this armada beyond the reach of those who would use it, not for defense, but for conquest. Perhaps, with the might of our 'Mechs and ships out of reach, the leaders who now grapple with one another will relinquish their dreams of subjugating their neighbors and learn to live in peace with them.


Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: E. Icaza on 07 June 2014, 06:20:51
And sure the SLDF-in-Exile might have returned but, as it has been pointed out, the Clans are NOT the SLDF.  They went through their own Succession Wars and purged themselves.  The Warden philosophy is based on The Great Father's philosophy, but the Pentagon Revolt showed that he was hopelessly naive in regards to human nature, preferring to deal with humanity as he thought they should be.  The Founder was a better judge of actual human nature and dealt with human nature as it actually is.

In truth, Ulric's meddling and the Warden philosophy doomed both the Clans and the Inner Sphere to endless massive and destructive conflicts, since it denied the Clans the opportunity to complete the conquest of the Inner Sphere and rebuild it in the Clan mold.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 07 June 2014, 06:42:15
But only if the Clans could have successfully completed the Crusader mission of conquering the Inner Sphere. 

Ulric's various meddling and manipulation ended when it came to how the affairs of each of the Clans were carried out, as those were decisions made purely by their Khans.  Which is a little more than can be said for the Crusaders, who wanted to have a puppet Wolf along for the ride during their expected triumph in the Inner Sphere.  Leo Showers was constantly in Wolf business, he made it his business to do so.  Ulric never did anything even remotely like it - though perhaps he could have used his office to directly influence the Crusaders and interfere with their plans by ordering them to comply with his demands (how well would that have flown with the Falcons or Jaguars?). 

As it stands, he tried to tell the other Clans how to combat the Spheroids and their various changing styles of warfare, but the Crusaders would not listen to this for whatever reason, and remained stuck in their ways even in the face of an enemy that reinvented the word evisceration just for them on Tukayyid.  Everything else aside, if the Crusader Clans could not recognize sound advice for what it was, then that can hardly be called a betrayal on the part off Ulric. It was the Crusader's gig, and they balefully failed to perform. 

Electing a Warden IlKhan while they held a majority of political power is only one example of how the Crusaders defeated their own cause.  Ulric may have hated the invasion, but he never betrayed the Clans.   
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: BirdofPrey on 07 June 2014, 07:01:45
In truth, Ulric's meddling and the Warden philosophy doomed both the Clans and the Inner Sphere to endless massive and destructive conflicts,
An ironic comment considering the Crusader cause IS massive and destructive conflicts, and the crusaders claim to have based their philosophy on exactly the same speech by Kerensky, so it isn't any more right than the Warden one and isn't any less of a shallow excuse to justify their actions.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: E. Icaza on 07 June 2014, 07:11:38
But only if the Clans could have successfully completed the Crusader mission of conquering the Inner Sphere. 

Ulric's various meddling and manipulation ended when it came to how the affairs of each of the Clans were carried out, as those were decisions made purely by their Khans.  Which is a little more than can be said for the Crusaders, who wanted to have a puppet Wolf along for the ride during their expected triumph in the Inner Sphere.  Leo Showers was constantly in Wolf business, he made it his business to do so.  Ulric never did anything even remotely like it - though perhaps he could have used his office to directly influence the Crusaders and interfere with their plans by ordering them to comply with his demands (how well would that have flown with the Falcons or Jaguars?). 

As it stands, he tried to tell the other Clans how to combat the Spheroids and their various changing styles of warfare, but the Crusaders would not listen to this for whatever reason, and remained stuck in their ways even in the face of an enemy that reinvented the word evisceration just for them on Tukayyid.  Everything else aside, if the Crusader Clans could not recognize sound advice for what it was, then that can hardly be called a betrayal on the part off Ulric. It was the Crusader's gig, and they balefully failed to perform. 

Electing a Warden IlKhan while they held a majority of political power is only one example of how the Crusaders defeated their own cause.  Ulric may have hated the invasion, but he never betrayed the Clans.   

[/shrug]  I disagree, and I'm not criticizing Ulric's competence or savvy.  Saddling the CJF and CSJ with hated rival Clans?  Attempting to destroy two Invading Clans, while sending Phelan's Wolves into the IS?  Putting Focht into a position where he had the opportunity to learn how to fight and defeat the Clans?  Ulric knew that if the offensive stalled for any significant length of time then the invasion was doomed as the IS eventually learned to counter Clan tactics and reverse-engineer their tech.  Even worse, a long enough delay introduced the prospect of the Clans being culturally assimilated and ceasing to be Clan.  Ulric struck me as a shrewd enough fellow to realize this and that he apparently wanted these things to happen is why I label him as a traitor.

Ulric's decisions directly led to the death of the Way of the Clans. 

Ulric's actions were every bit as oriented towards furthering the Warden agenda and just as ruthless and treacherous as the actions of Crichell, Showers and many of the Crusader leaders.We're just supposed to see the Wardens as the "good guys" and give them a pass for their treachery and underhandedness while reviling the Crusaders since they're obviously the "bad guys".  The "BoK" Trilogy is told solely from a Warden Clan pov and we don't see the pov of a Crusader Clan until it's all over and done with.

An ironic comment considering the Crusader cause IS massive and destructive conflicts, and the crusaders claim to have based their philosophy on exactly the same speech by Kerensky, so it isn't any more right than the Warden one and isn't any less of a shallow excuse to justify their actions.

And the Clans caused massive and destructive conflicts when they invaded the Pentagon...at first.  Eventually it settled down to a dull rumble with the occasional flare-up of mega-violence.  Why don't you ask the inhabitants of Galedon V or New Dallas if they preferred the constant low-level raiding of the 3rd SW to the destructiveness of the Jihad or the 1st SW. 

Oh wait...you can't...  ;)

Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 07 June 2014, 07:18:38
In truth, Ulric's meddling and the Warden philosophy doomed both the Clans and the Inner Sphere to endless massive and destructive conflicts, since it denied the Clans the opportunity to complete the conquest of the Inner Sphere and rebuild it in the Clan mold.
Just read my sig, it's quoted from this very thread.

Clan culture is that of constant war. If the clans have conquered the IS, it wouldn't bring peace; it would escalate the inter clan conflict by several order of magnitudes. The population of the Homeworlds is smaller than most major IS worlds. What would happen if the clans had access to the vast resources and populations of the IS, isn't an academic discussion: you need only look at the brutality of the Combine-dominion wars and the recent falcons brutalities. Clan leaders are elected by their proficiency as killers, not as administrators.


Ulric saved the IS and the clans from the fate of clan-controlled IS. Without an external enemy, the clans would consume each other; and I don't need to extoll the virtues of not leaving under a clan boot...

Ulric's actions were every bit as oriented towards furthering the Warden agenda and just as ruthless and treacherous as the actions of Crichell, Showers and many of the Crusader leaders.We're just supposed to see the Wardens as the "good guys" and give them a pass for their treachery and underhandedness while reviling the Crusaders since they're obviously the "bad guys".  The "BoK" Trilogy is told solely from a Warden Clan pov and we don't see the pov of a Crusader Clan until it's all over and done with.
What we're arguing is, that of all those ilkhans, only the warden one is accused of being a "traitor", not the other way around...
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: E. Icaza on 07 June 2014, 07:30:22
Just read my sig, it's quoted from this very thread.

Clan culture is that of constant war. If the clans have conquered the IS, it wouldn't bring peace; it would escalate the inter clan conflict by several order of magnitudes. The population of the Homeworlds is smaller than most major IS worlds. What would happen if the clans had access to the vast resources and populations of the IS, isn't an academic discussion: you need only look at the brutality of the Combine-dominion wars and the recent falcons brutalities. Clan leaders are elected by their proficiency as killers, not as administrators.  Ulric saved the IS and the clans from the fate of clan-controlled IS. Without an external enemy, the clans would consume each other; and I don't need to extoll the virtues of not leaving under a clan boot...

I've read your sig.  It has always seemed sort of nonsensical and inappropriate since the Clans aren't a utopian, pacifistic society and have never really claimed to be.  They're a society where the aggression of the ruling class is focused against others like themselves and, ideally of course, not against the people that keep the lights on and food on the table.  And if the Clans had succeeded in REVIVAL, then of course there would have been a round of destructive conflicts between those same rulers, just like the SW.  The difference in this case, hopefully, would be that they wouldn't fall back to the IS default method of killing the people who keep the lights on and food on the table.

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What we're arguing is, that of all those ilkhans, only the warden one is accused of being a "traitor", not the other way around...

Well, he's a traitor because he's a Warden.  That much is obvious.   ::)

Like any Warden or Crusader, I'm more than capable of justifying my hypocrisy and selfishness through ideology.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Warpimp on 07 June 2014, 07:34:14
Ulric can be right and still be a traitor. The overall morality of what he did isn't the question. Did he, in doing the right thing, betray his people in favor of those of the Inner Sphere? Did he purposefully do things that lead to greater death on his side of the conflict? I think the Refusal was a good example of how he did that as has been discussed in detail.  And really, he even betrayed his own faction in his Clan. The Wolves-in-Exile have no real future besides fighting Jade Falcon for all eternity. For what? To protect House Steiner, who the Wolves had in the early part of the decade fought and died to take planets from? What if the Clans had won Tukayyid? Presumably a trial of possession would have to be fought to decide which Clan would be ilClan. What would that I have looked like? My opinion is that it would have made the Refusal War look mild by comparison.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 07 June 2014, 07:42:46
[/shrug]  I disagree, and I'm not criticizing Ulric's competence or savvy.  Saddling the CJF and CSJ with hated rival Clans?  Attempting to destroy two Invading Clans, while sending Phelan's Wolves into the IS?  Putting Focht into a position where he had the opportunity to learn how to fight and defeat the Clans?  Ulric knew that if the offensive stalled for any significant length of time then the invasion was doomed as the IS eventually learned to counter Clan tactics and reverse-engineer their tech.  Even worse, a long enough delay introduced the prospect of the Clans being culturally assimilated and ceasing to be Clan.  Ulric struck me as a shrewd enough fellow to realize this and that he apparently wanted these things to happen is why I label him as a traitor.

Ulric's decisions directly led to the death of the Way of the Clans. 

Ulric's actions were every bit as oriented towards furthering the Warden agenda and just as ruthless and treacherous as the actions of Crichell, Showers and many of the Crusader leaders.We're just supposed to see the Wardens as the "good guys" and give them a pass for their treachery and underhandedness while reviling the Crusaders since they're obviously the "bad guys".  The "BoK" Trilogy is told solely from a Warden Clan pov and we don't see the pov of a Crusader Clan until it's all over and done with.


The Crusaders handed the office of warlord to their greatest political rival, one who felt the Clan Way was being perverted by the Crusaders and their cause to turn on those who they should protect.  The SLDF left the IS behind and the Clans were born apart.  They are meant to save humanity from itself, not be the catalyst in its continual slow slide away from the Star League era.  That is how Ulric Kerensky and the Wardens felt.  The Crusader philosophy took a few score years to achieve their political dominance, but they supplanted the school of thought that reigned long before it.  The Crusader cause may have died, but the Clan Way soldiers on despite the damage it has done to itself in the IS and the Home Worlds.

As for the good guy/bad guy thing, the Crusaders lost Tukayyid, but I would not call them bad guys.  I think that idea is suggested more by the subject of this thread.  Ulric was neither, it seems to me, or both, but not simply one.  But it is inevitable that observers will call the guy who makes fifteen years of peace from about three weeks +/- of war a good guy, from an objective standpoint.

The Crusaders stuck to the same plan in the face of the enemy.  It seems they were not as good at war as they thought they were.  And that is the test of the Clans.  Trial by battle.  They could have defeated Ulric's scheme* if they had performed better and defeated the Com Guards in battle.  The Smoke Jaguars were wrecked.  The Jade Falcons fought to a draw because Aidan Pryde took it upon himself to alter Falcon tactical doctrine on the spot at multiple junctures, the Bears were tenacious and I think they won a draw as well.  The Cats, Sharks and Vipers all lost... 

Not all of those Clans are Crusaders, and some would not be crusader at all for very much longer.  Ulric had no hand in any of these failures.  And critical these failures were to the extreme. 


*somewhat, maybe - would any of the rest really have beaten the Wolves to Terra?  Ulric had put the Wolves ahead of the rest before he took the highest office.  The rest could barely catch their breath let alone a break.  They created their own fortunes by underestimating everything about the situation in the IS in gross fashion before the invasion began.   Was Ulric a traitor, or just highly competent by comparison to some of his contemporaries?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Auren on 07 June 2014, 08:01:30
The charges of genocide that were leveled at him just before the Refusal War were entirely baseless, and were brought up purely because of jealous butthurt on the part of the Jade Falcons and the Smoke Jaguars for doing so much better than them during Operation Revival. His success in the early Invasion was due to a few factors.

Well, I was going to post something like this but...  ;D
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: E. Icaza on 07 June 2014, 08:02:02
The Crusaders handed the office of warlord to their greatest political rival, one who felt the Clan Way was being perverted by the Crusaders and their cause to turn on those who they should protect.  The SLDF left the IS behind and the Clans were born apart.  They are meant to save humanity from itself, not be the catalyst in its continual slow slide away from the Star League era.  That is how Ulric Kerensky and the Wardens felt.  The Crusader philosophy took a few score years to achieve their political dominance, but they suplanted the school of thought that reigned long before it.  The Crusader cause may have died, but the Clan Way soldiers on despite of the damage it has done to itself in the IS and the Home Worlds.

As for the good guy/bad guy thing, the Crusaders lost Tukayyid, but I would not call them bad guys.  I think that idea is suggested more by the subject of this thread.  Ulric was neither, it seems to me, or both, but not simply one.  But it is inevitable that observers will call the guy who makes fifteen years of peace from about three weeks +/- of war a good guy, from an objective standpoint.

The Crusaders stuck to the same plan in the face of the enemy.  It seems they were not as good as war as they thought they were.  And that is the test of the Clans.  Trial by battle.  They could have defeated Ulric's scheme if they had performed better and defeated the Com Guards in battle.  The Smoke Jaguars were wrecked.  The Jade Falcons fought to a draw because Aidan Pryde took it upon himself to alter Falcon tactical doctrine on the spot at multiple junctures, the Bears were tenacious and I think they won a draw as well.  The Cats, Sharks and Vipers all lost... 

Not all of those Clans are Crusaders, and some would not be crusader at all for very much longer.  Ulric had no hand in any of these failures.  And critical these failures were to the extreme.

Return to the Inner Sphere is impossible for us. Our heritage and our convictions are different from those we left behind. The greed of the five Great Houses and the Council Lords is a disease that can only be burned away by the passing of decades, even centuries. And though the fighting may seem to slow, or even cease, it will erupt again as long as there are powerful men to covet one another's wealth. We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return — and return we shall — our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our BattleMechs and fighters.

There's the Hidden Hope passage from GO 137.  It mentions that the SLDF-In-Exile is separating itself from the greed of the Great Houses and mentions that they will return after they've purged themselves and the IS has purged itself after numerous destructive wars.  As a Crusader, the impression that I get from the Great Father's words is that the SLDF will return and show the blasted and struggling people of the IS the proper way to live.  Just like with KLONDIKE, there will be resistance, but the SLDF will prevail because of its superior morality as much as their superior technology.

I can even see the Warden pov of "we have to protect them from themselves" in there.  What I've never understood is how are the Wardens protecting the IS by giving them access to even more destructive weapons (i.e ClanTech) and the time to put them into service to prolong an invasion by the people who are supposed to be coming to help them?  Ulric's truce, the defection of the WiE and even the Diamond Shark/Fox willingness to sell ClanTech to the IS has only doomed the IS to the endless cycle of even more destructive wars that the Great Father was trying initially to prevent when he took the SLDF into exile.

While I do and will always think that REVIVAL happened a century or so too early, so the Crusaders are definitely not blameless, Ulric and the many other Warden's selfish actions have doomed both the Clans and the IS to destruction.

Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Warpimp on 07 June 2014, 08:44:04
What I've never understood is how are the Wardens protecting the IS by giving them access to even more destructive weapons (i.e ClanTech) and the time to put them into service to prolong an invasion by the people who are supposed to be coming to help them?  Ulric's truce, the defection of the WiE and even the Diamond Shark/Fox willingness to sell ClanTech to the IS has only doomed the IS to the endless cycle of even more destructive wars that the Great Father was trying initially to prevent when he took the SLDF into exile.

Very well put. Whatever high mindedness Ulric was purporting, his real end-state wasn't peace, just a more even-sided war.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 07 June 2014, 09:04:38
Return to the Inner Sphere is impossible for us. Our heritage and our convictions are different from those we left behind. The greed of the five Great Houses and the Council Lords is a disease that can only be burned away by the passing of decades, even centuries. And though the fighting may seem to slow, or even cease, it will erupt again as long as there are powerful men to covet one another's wealth. We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return — and return we shall — our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our BattleMechs and fighters.

There's the Hidden Hope passage from GO 137.  It mentions that the SLDF-In-Exile is separating itself from the greed of the Great Houses and mentions that they will return after they've purged themselves and the IS has purged itself after numerous destructive wars.  As a Crusader, the impression that I get from the Great Father's words is that the SLDF will return and show the blasted and struggling people of the IS the proper way to live.  Just like with KLONDIKE, there will be resistance, but the SLDF will prevail because of its superior morality as much as their superior technology.

I can even see the Warden pov of "we have to protect them from themselves" in there.  What I've never understood is how are the Wardens protecting the IS by giving them access to even more destructive weapons (i.e ClanTech) and the time to put them into service to prolong an invasion by the people who are supposed to be coming to help them?  Ulric's truce, the defection of the WiE and even the Diamond Shark/Fox willingness to sell ClanTech to the IS has only doomed the IS to the endless cycle of even more destructive wars that the Great Father was trying initially to prevent when he took the SLDF into exile.

While I do and will always think that REVIVAL happened a century or so too early, so the Crusaders are definitely not blameless, Ulric and the many other Warden's selfish actions have doomed both the Clans and the IS to destruction.

And while we both represent camps that are opposed on this for many good reasons, I am also led to a more neutral view of the IlKhan, he acted very politically.  He was a product of his time, he had to combat Leo Showers who was also politically inclined and ambitious and became an ilKhan who enacted his political vision.  Elias Crichell was also a foil in green.  But most of the warriors they surrounded their selves with, their saKhans and favorite Star Colonels and Galaxy Commanders and such, were blinded by ambition and pride.  The Crusader leadership could not make tactical and strategic changes, they would not suck it up enough to break their bids like a warrior to bring in more galaxies to work with in the drive to the center of the Inner Sphere, etc...  Ulric Kerensky was at fault for none of that.

But I think most of all, Ulric cannot be said to have betrayed an ideal that had shifted and reversed in the political winds of the time.  He held to his ideas as selfishly as the crusaders took the Clans back to the Inner Sphere to conquer it.  That was not what Aleksandr Kerensky promised, and the text does not indicate that Ulric Kerensky believed that either, obviously.  :)    Ulric was not a traitor the the Way of the Clans, regardless of whatever else he was.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 07 June 2014, 09:13:26
Very well put. Whatever high mindedness Ulric was purporting, his real end-state wasn't peace, just a more even-sided war.

High-mindedness?  Or mitigating a trainwreck beyond his control trying to save the jokers from their selves-ness?   O:-) 

And in the process save the Way of the Clans from the oblivion of being destroyed once they cleverly surround their cute little toumans in a big, fuzzy Spheroid blanket.

Ulric Kerensky was not a traitor. 


(Just having fun, but he did save them from their selves in his opinion.  I'm bowing out of the debate for now, but I also respect the opposing viewpoints for virtue of also being firmly rooted in the body of work that is BT lore  O0 )
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 07 June 2014, 11:24:40
If the clans weren't even able to take one miserable planet from C*, how did they expect to take the IS? Honorably, no less? It's no wonder a lot of people question whether the combined could really take Terra... The clans just aren't equipped for that kind of total war. Perhaps if everyone did the right thing and mimicked the Wolves approach (like the bears did later in the invasion), of "smart" warfare, than the clans had a chance. But the Wolves couldn't be expected to drag the crusaders kicking and screaming to victory...
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Warpimp on 07 June 2014, 11:41:10
If the clans weren't even able to take one miserable planet from C*, how did they expect to take the IS? Honorably, no less? It's no wonder a lot of people question whether the combined could really take Terra... The clans just aren't equipped for that kind of total war. Perhaps if everyone did the right thing and mimicked the Wolves approach (like the bears did later in the invasion), of "smart" warfare, than the clans had a chance. But the Wolves couldn't be expected to drag the crusaders kicking and screaming to victory...

But I think that is part of the reason people say Ulric betrayed the Clans, though. They very well could have won Tukayyid had Ulric not manipulated events and people to ensure only the Wolves would be successful.

As for Ulric's advice to the other Clans on Tukayyid: he was a master manipulator. Ulric knew there was no better way to ensure the other Clans would do one thing was for him to tell them to do the opposite. Had he wanted a victory he could have gotten them to plan better. But his advice was nothing more than a chance for him to say "I told you so."

Also, whether or not Ulric was a traitor isn't dependant on whether or not any other Khan is also treasonous or whether or not anyone else was making good decisions. Ulrics actions very much show a violation of trust or confidence that was placed on him and his position. I'm not saying it was a bright idea by the crusaders to put him there, though.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 07 June 2014, 11:43:50
Ulric can be right and still be a traitor. The overall morality of what he did isn't the question. Did he, in doing the right thing, betray his people in favor of those of the Inner Sphere? Did he purposefully do things that lead to greater death on his side of the conflict? I think the Refusal was a good example of how he did that as has been discussed in detail.  And really, he even betrayed his own faction in his Clan. The Wolves-in-Exile have no real future besides fighting Jade Falcon for all eternity. For what? To protect House Steiner, who the Wolves had in the early part of the decade fought and died to take planets from? What if the Clans had won Tukayyid? Presumably a trial of possession would have to be fought to decide which Clan would be ilClan. What would that I have looked like? My opinion is that it would have made the Refusal War look mild by comparison.
Seems to me that "no" is the obvious answer to the first question.  Ulric always stayed true to the principles of his people and worked within the system.  As for the second, I'm not sure it's the right question to ask.  In the Clans, even the most basic of disputes can be settled by bloodshed, so minimizing bloodshed probably isn't something they're ever consciously intending.  You yourself point out that victory on Tukayyid likely would have led to more bloodshed than the Refusal War.  Likewise if they'd claimed Terra by more straightforward invasion, the death and destruction would've been massive.  "Avoiding bloodshed" is only rarely any sort of priority among clan warriors.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 07 June 2014, 11:45:56
But I think that is part of the reason people say Ulric betrayed the Clans, though. They very well could have won Tukayyid had Ulric not manipulated events and people to ensure only the Wolves would be successful.

As for Ulric's advice to the other Clans on Tukayyid: he was a master manipulator. Ulric knew there was no better way to ensure the other Clans would do one thing was for him to tell them to do the opposite. Had he wanted a victory he could have gotten them to plan better. But his advice was nothing more than a chance for him to say "I told you so."

Also, whether or not Ulric was a traitor isn't dependant on whether or not any other Khan is also treasonous or whether or not anyone else was making good decisions. Ulrics actions very much show a violation of trust or confidence that was placed on him and his position. I'm not saying it was a bright idea by the crusaders to put him there, though.


That's a catch-22 though.  If he gives good advice and they don't listen he's doing it intentionally because he's a manipulator.  If he gives bad advice, his opponents would claim that he's trying to set them up for failure.  There's no way you'd see anything he does as good leadership.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 07 June 2014, 13:33:18
But I think that is part of the reason people say Ulric betrayed the Clans, though. They very well could have won Tukayyid had Ulric not manipulated events and people to ensure only the Wolves would be successful.
Hmm, what? Ulric simply allowed the other clans do their thing; which is to be vainglorious idiots. Do you think if Showers would've survived, he would've:

A. Declined Tukayyid? A chance to win Terra in an honorable trial-style combat? I think not.

B. Could've changed the outcome of the battles, with the wolves yet again triumphing? Do you honestly think that any of the khans were in any position to advocate "smart" warfare? All he would've done is dig that hole even deeper, making Tukayyid into a bigger disaster manipulating events so all other clans would fare even worse than the Jaguars.

Also, whether or not Ulric was a traitor isn't dependant on whether or not any other Khan is also treasonous or whether or not anyone else was making good decisions.
What? Of course it... If Ulric behavior is par the course of his predecessors, he can't be signaled out as "treasonous" while the rest are vindicated by virtue of being crusaders...

A warden ilkhan, promoting a warden agenda. As ilkhan, Ulric  could've done a lot of terrible things to screw the clans over, including mailing every plan and move they do to Focht nd the rest of the IS leaders to counter. But he didn't, because Ulric always worked within his system. It's how he lived, and it's how he died with the flacons forced to break Zell because they could never have beat him in honorable combat. I think that the real source of falcon butthurt here; for all their talks of honor and tradition, they couldn't beat him without resorting to the most cowardly and treacherous tactics employed in a trial since the founder died. The falcons started walking down a path of dezgra that day that led to Malvina... The falcons may have been quick to claim victory, but in truth the "real" Jade falcon clan died that day.

Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: E. Icaza on 07 June 2014, 21:33:04
A warden ilkhan, promoting a warden agenda. As ilkhan, Ulric  could've done a lot of terrible things to screw the clans over, including mailing every plan and move they do to Focht nd the rest of the IS leaders to counter. But he didn't, because Ulric always worked within his system. It's how he lived, and it's how he died with the flacons forced to break Zell because they could never have beat him in honorable combat. I think that the real source of falcon butthurt here; for all their talks of honor and tradition, they couldn't beat him without resorting to the most cowardly and treacherous tactics employed in a trial since the founder died. The falcons started walking down a path of dezgra that day that led to Malvina... The falcons may have been quick to claim victory, but in truth the "real" Jade falcon clan died that day.

No Falcon butthurt here.  Ulric died as he lived...treacherously.  Considering that the Wolves broke Zell constantly during the Refusal War, I'd have declared him dezgra and killed him in orbit if I'd had the option.  Failing that, an artiller/LRM strike works just as well.  Crichell and Chistu were pretty crappy examples of Clanners too, but then no Crusader was subjected to Stackpole's writing and came out looking good. 

That said, while I may consider him a traitor, I'd respect Ulric's prowess as a warrior enough to kill him as expediently as possible too.  Being a traitor doesn't make him incompetent.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 07 June 2014, 21:51:38
But I think that is part of the reason people say Ulric betrayed the Clans, though. They very well could have won Tukayyid had Ulric not manipulated events and people to ensure only the Wolves would be successful.

He really didn't need to manipulate anybody with regards to Tukayyid.  The jealousy and hatred of the other Clans and their desire to become ilClan led them down the path of destruction all on their own.

Quote
As for Ulric's advice to the other Clans on Tukayyid: he was a master manipulator. Ulric knew there was no better way to ensure the other Clans would do one thing was for him to tell them to do the opposite. Had he wanted a victory he could have gotten them to plan better. But his advice was nothing more than a chance for him to say "I told you so."

So if Ulric had told the other Clans that his Clan should go last, the other Clans would have conspired to make them go first?  And the Smoke Jaguars wouldn't have underbid as drastically as they did?

The Ghost Bears and, surprisingly enough, the Jade Falcons did heed some of his advice.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 07 June 2014, 22:03:59
Hmm, what? Ulric simply allowed the other clans do their thing; which is to be vainglorious idiots. Do you think if Showers would've survived, he would've:

A. Declined Tukayyid? A chance to win Terra in an honorable trial-style combat? I think not.

More importantly decline a chance to catch up to Clan Wolf?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 08 June 2014, 12:18:36
Ulric's primary mode of "manipulation" was going on well before the Crusaders elected him ilKhan.  It was as simple as this: All practices of Clan Wolf were to be eschewed, derided and avoided.  In the crusader's eyes, they and all the rest of the wardens were right next door to dezgra for their attitude about invading the IS.  They saw no value in their input, like when they ignored Dragoon reports, holding them and their actions in the IS to be the outward sign of Clan Wolf's weakness.  If the Crusaders were that foolish as to cling to dogma over critical thought, then Ulric really can't be called a master manipulator. 

Leo Showers secretly interrogated the Comstar crew of Outbound Light for weeks or months before bringing them to the attention of the  grand council.  They did what they wished to engineer the invasion, knowing what it was that they had before approaching the council.  Ulric Kerensky was never any more out of line than that, outright breaking of Clan law to get his way politically. 

If Leo Showers gets a pass, Ulric cannot be viewed as a traitor.

The Falcons and Jags had their own ways and traditions, and they stuck to those as best they could.  The Jags are now long dead, and the Falcon's traditions have been plucked away and replaced by new ones in the IS.  So much for the Crusader ideal.  Ulric has yet to be proven wrong about his assertions of how the Clans would change, the deeper they penetrate the Inner Sphere.   

(I'm back, can't resist...)
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 08 June 2014, 12:37:40
If Leo Showers gets a pass, Ulric cannot be viewed as a traitor.
+1 QFT
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: misterpants on 08 June 2014, 22:43:45
EDIT: could a mod delete this, thanks.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Rtifs on 09 June 2014, 07:33:05
Yes he was.

There was nothing wrong with Tukayyid though.  It was a trial of possession for Terra.  Which meant that  a clan victory would result in an Ilclan.  The only way to determine who that would be is for each clan to operate independently. 

He was a traitor because he viewed the clans as the bad guys and the enemy as the good guys and wanted to help the enemy overcome his own civilization.  Everything he did was within the letter of the law, but he was trying to help the enemy.  The refusal war is where this is really revealed.  He was willing to blow up his own clan – any and all clans really – and effectively have the survivors declare independence from the Grand Council (sound familiar to anyone?).  I'm glad I wasn't one of his underlings.

No Falcon butthurt here.  Ulric died as he lived...treacherously.  Considering that the Wolves broke Zell constantly during the Refusal War, I'd have declared him dezgra and killed him in orbit if I'd had the option.  Failing that, an artiller/LRM strike works just as well.  Crichell and Chistu were pretty crappy examples of Clanners too, but then no Crusader was subjected to Stackpole's writing and came out looking good. 

That said, while I may consider him a traitor, I'd respect Ulric's prowess as a warrior enough to kill him as expediently as possible too.  Being a traitor doesn't make him incompetent.
Seconded
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 09 June 2014, 10:41:56
He was a traitor because he viewed the clans as the bad guys and the enemy as the good guys and wanted to help the enemy overcome his own civilization.
Nope. Just wrong. If anything he viewed the crusaders as the "bad guys" (a feeling that was reciprocated), and tried to save/redeem the clans from their control, including the clans labeled as "crusaders". He believed the war was corrupting the clans, and would lead to their destruction, if not militarily than culturally. You can see it with the spheroid clans today: During the invasion the ratio between trueborn and freebirth warriors was in average about 1:4; the freebirth outnumbered the trueborn, but were mostly delegated to second-line and garrison clusters. By the dark age, that margin grows substantially, you have entire clusters of spheroid freebriths. The spheroid clans struggle to keep their cultural heritage, not just fighting their enemies. As they assimilate more and more spheroid natives, they also in turn get assimilated. The homeworlds population was ~50 million IIRC; that smaller than pretty much any major IS planets. The clans found themselves administering billions of people, and you can't simply shoot anyone that disagrees with you (though the falcons sure try...).

Everything he did was within the letter of the law, but he was trying to help the enemy.
If he everything he did was legal, he can't be a traitor...

Point is, despite what certain falcon fanboys claiming, having a differing political outlook, doesn't make one a traitor. And you shouldn't ask a wolf to be a sheep; you can try dressing him up in fluffy wool and put him with the rest of the herd, but don't be surprised when hilarity, oh so bloody hilarity, ensues.

The refusal war is where this is really revealed.  He was willing to blow up his own clan – any and all clans really – and effectively have the survivors declare independence from the Grand Council (sound familiar to anyone?).
Despite their delusional claims, Clan Jade Falcon is not "any and all clans"; despite trying to rename all the other clans "jade bears" and "jade horses" and the like.

He was willing to put a significant part of his touman (the most rebellious part) on the line, in order to save the clans.
As for declaring independence from the grand council? The Wolves-in-exile simply did it before it was cool, eventually followed by all other spheroid clans, falcons included...
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 09 June 2014, 18:34:20
Nope. Just wrong. If anything he viewed the crusaders as the "bad guys" (a feeling that was reciprocated), and tried to save/redeem the clans from their control, including the clans labeled as "crusaders". He believed the war was corrupting the clans, and would lead to their destruction, if not militarily than culturally. You can see it with the spheroid clans today: During the invasion the ratio between trueborn and freebirth warriors was in average about 1:4; the freebirth outnumbered the trueborn, but were mostly delegated to second-line and garrison clusters. By the dark age, that margin grows substantially, you have entire clusters of spheroid freebriths. The spheroid clans struggle to keep their cultural heritage, not just fighting their enemies. As they assimilate more and more spheroid natives, they also in turn get assimilated. 1)The homeworlds population was ~50 million IIRC; that smaller than pretty much any major IS planets. The clans found themselves administering billions of people, and you can't simply shoot anyone that disagrees with you (though the falcons sure try...).
2)If he everything he did was legal, he can't be a traitor...
1)  I think you maybe thinking total Warrior caste or trueborn population.  The Homeworlds as a whole was more like 1.2 Billion.  Still less than a whole lot of IS worlds though.


2)  A good point.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 09 June 2014, 18:36:40
Yes he was.

There was nothing wrong with Tukayyid though.  It was a trial of possession for Terra.  Which meant that  a clan victory would result in an Ilclan.  The only way to determine who that would be is for each clan to operate independently. 

He was a traitor because he viewed the clans as the bad guys and the enemy as the good guys and wanted to help the enemy overcome his own civilization.  Everything he did was within the letter of the law, but he was trying to help the enemy.  The refusal war is where this is really revealed.  He was willing to blow up his own clan – any and all clans really – and effectively have the survivors declare independence from the Grand Council (sound familiar to anyone?).  I'm glad I wasn't one of his underlings.
Seconded
Nope, he viewed the Wardens as the good guys and the Crusaders as the bad guys.  The people of the IS were essentially held in contempt by both sides of the clan ideological divide; the Crusaders wanted to conquer and rule them, the Wardens wanted to protect them (because, y'know, dirty spheroid freebirths are too weak to protect themselves).
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 09 June 2014, 23:18:29
I don't believe that Ulric viewed the Wardens and Crusaders in terms of good and bad.  More likely he viewed the Crusaders as misguided.  However, there likely were individual Crusaders (and Wardens) that he viewed as bad or evil, such as Leo Showers or Galaxy Commander Cordera Perez.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkaris on 28 June 2014, 12:11:20
Through these posts there are several very clear points that are entirely missed.

1) Clans do not think of the Clans as a whole, they think of their clan first.  Personal glory, the glory of your unit, and the glory of your clan come before -all- else and that is beat in to your head from Sibko, it doesn't suddenly disappear the day you become ilKhan.  And for personal glory I would put forth that you cannot name one person who could compare to Ulric.  The success of the Wolves under his leadership will be a beacon to all the Clans for all time, no matter how much the clans want to try and stomp it out.  Even Alric's victory is based on Ulric's success, you cannot have Alric without first having Ulric.

2) ilKhan position is being misunderstood by many posters.  The ilKhan is a best a figurehead position (kind of like the VP in America) with little real power.  The best thing the ilKhan can do is offer advice.  If an ilKhan chooses to wait for someone to come to him for advice and not injecting advice on people who do not ask for it, that is totally their right to do.  How many of us here here have jobs, and choose not to offer advice to their co-workers or bosses (not out of spite but simply because it takes more effort and they might not listen to you anyway)?  Does that automatically make us traitors to our job?  Neither does it to Ulric and his post.  Everything in Clan life is warfare.  Every decision by the council is then cemented by a duel or a fight.  And with Ulric's position I am sure more of the things he wanted done, by the duel were lost just by sheer numbers.  Which only forces the Crusaders to lie in the bed they make.

3) The wolves were given the center corridor not because the FRR were an easy target, at the start of the invasion the clans did not know about the creation of the FRR.  The wolves were given the center corridor because the Jags and the Falcons believed they could outpace the Wolves and then suffocate their expansion.  While the Jags and Falcons could spread out, the Wolves would have to fight through CGB, CJF, and CSJ for any expansion.  This was the plan by Leo Showers.  However, Ulric outpaced all the other clans and actually cut off CGB's expansion causing them to bleed in to CSJ's corridor. 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Maingunnery on 28 June 2014, 13:50:37
1) Clans do not think of the Clans as a whole, they think of their clan first.  Personal glory, the glory of your unit, and the glory of your clan come before -all- else and that is beat in to your head from Sibko

Quote
2) ilKhan position is being misunderstood by many posters.  The ilKhan is a best a figurehead position (kind of like the VP in America) with little real power.  The best thing the ilKhan can do is offer advice.
These two positions can't be combined. Yes the Clans compete heavily with each-other, this also means that the system requires an unifying force, and that is the position of the IlKhan. If the position of IlKhan is subverted, then the system fails.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 28 June 2014, 14:18:11
These two positions can't be combined.

That is a very subjective position. Maybe their combination isn't pretty and adds up to a perfect society; but that's life.

Yes the Clans compete heavily with each-other, this also means that the system requires an unifying force, and that is the position of the IlKhan. If the position of IlKhan is subverted, then the system fails.
Maybe the clans could use a unifying force. Their competitiveness means they rarely acknowledge one; ask the Blood Spirits how that worked for them. It's not a coincidence that the clan that was suppose to represent the clans unity, and inspiration to work together, became the most isolated.

Since the death of Alexander Kerensky, the clans haven't been unified on any subject. Even launching operation REVIVAL was more like herding cats than actually coordinating together; and that was long before Ulric became ilKhan. If the position of ilKhan was so necessary, they wouldn't have dismissed it, for the majority of their history.

Clans working together in unison, coordinating together to achieve objectives? That's not what the clans are about. It didn't work on Klondike 90% of the time, and it's been downhill ever since. Just ask Absalom Truscott, AK's mentor and architect of operation Klondike, how that worked out. Hint: he died in the first hours of the invasion, when the Bears decided clearing the LZ for the other clans (their assigned objective) was a waste of their time and decided to single handedly assault the capital without telling anyone.

The clans aren't a unified force. Even a single clan is barely a unified force, with their commanders and soldiers constantly competing against eachother. In the clans, mostly, it's arguably better to fight against all odds, fail spectacularly and go out like a boss, than winning consistently through numerical advantages and heavy use of support. The clan will appreciate the wins, but the fool that died in a blaze of glory taking three-four enemies with him is the one whose legacy will be passed on. It's this search for a good and worthy death, is what makes them bad asses tactically, but failure in grand strategy; the spheroid enemy is all to happy to give them glorious deaths, as long as the spheroid forces achieve their objectives...
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Maingunnery on 28 June 2014, 15:15:56
That is a very subjective position. Maybe their combination isn't pretty and adds up to a perfect society; but that's life.
The Clans need the position of IlKhan as much as our societies need police officers.  ;)

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Maybe the clans could use a unifying force. Their competitiveness means they rarely acknowledge one; ask the Blood Spirits how that worked for them. It's not a coincidence that the clan that was suppose to represent the clans unity, and inspiration to work together, became the most isolated.
They went against the grain with their softness.

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Since the death of Alexander Kerensky, the clans haven't been unified on any subject. Even launching operation REVIVAL was more like herding cats than actually coordinating together; and that was long before Ulric became ilKhan. If the position of ilKhan was so necessary, they wouldn't have dismissed it, for the majority of their history.
Because there wasn't a need for them to work together for the majority of their history.

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Clans working together in unison, coordinating together to achieve objectives? That's not what the clans are about. It didn't work on Klondike 90% of the time, and it's been downhill ever since.
The 90% number is pretty much BS. But either way, any operation would have ended a lot worse without an IlKhan.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkaris on 28 June 2014, 17:01:24
These two positions can't be combined. Yes the Clans compete heavily with each-other, this also means that the system requires an unifying force, and that is the position of the IlKhan. If the position of IlKhan is subverted, then the system fails.

Because the system fails, proves that the position of ilKhan is subverted at all times. 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 28 June 2014, 17:29:57
The Clans need the position of IlKhan as much as our societies need police officers.  ;)
The various clan watches, are the police officers of the clans. And clan laws are only for the civies; for warriors: you can do whatever you want, break any rule, as long as you got the power to beat up anyone that would say otherwise (i.e. ToR/ToG). The Khans are the leader of nations, like presidents and prime ministers; but the ilKhan? He's like the chairman of the UN; he can frown, threaten, but only has power as long as someone listens to him. In the clans, the ilKhan's powerbase is his own clan. Ulric can't tell the bears "Yo dawg, I ordered the falcons to do something, and they laughed in my face! Go kick their ass!". He has to use his own clan as enforcers; and with the crusader block, it's a waste of time trying to. Ulric (and any ilKhan, really) wasn't going to put wolves life on the line, to impose his will on a hostile, crusader clan, just so that said clan would be more successful; that would be silly. Clanners would much rather let other clans to eat what they're cooking, and exploit the opportunities that open when they fail spectacularly.

Expecting the ilKhan to be some altruistic idealistic fanatic, that would hurt his own clan to help their enemies "in the name of the greater good", is unrealistic. Simply give me one example of an ilKhan that jeopardized the interests of his own clan, to help other clans.

Because there wasn't a need for them to work together for the majority of their history.
I think working together is against their culture. It's not important if the objectives are met, as long as you give a good accounting of yourself. From the individual warrior POV, even if the operation is a complete failure, an individual warrior can still be considered "successful". In the IS it's almost the opposite, as was said "victory needs no excuses, defeat deserves none".

The 90% number is pretty much BS. But either way, any operation would have ended a lot worse without an IlKhan.
It proved that an ilKhan can mostly point a clan at a target, and allow them to complete it "their way"; trying to micromanage them is folly, and even if they went completely against your orders, there's nothing you can do, as long as they were successful in whatever it is they chose to actually do. St. Nick was pissed off at the Jaguars for massacring civilians; but there was only so much he could do, because they were getting shit done.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Vehrec on 28 June 2014, 17:41:42
Is there any source that states what judicial and executive powers the Ilkhan actually has over the clans?  Can he forbid trials of grievance or possession between warriors and Clans?  Can she overrule the Clan Council in the case of a simple majority?  Can they remove a Khan from office or issue sanctions against them when they disobey orders, or is the only recourse a trial of grievance?  What are the powers of the Ilkhan?  Sarna only says that he may not interfere with internal affairs-but internal affairs are an obvious source of trouble for any Ilkhan, because they can easily turn external!  So what the heck are they supposed to do?  In the absence of any strong material about the power of the Ilkhan, we must assujme that their actual powers are similiar to those of a Khan-but to some degree, more hamstrung by politics and less able to enforce their will, lest they face a Trial of Refusal that may well cost them their life and station.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 28 June 2014, 18:28:14
Like any clan warrior, the ilKhan authority expands as far as he can get away with. As I said, his power to enforce his decrees stem from his own clan, and his power block.

In Ulric's case, the warden power block was practically non-existent, and wasting his wolves against the 16 crusader clans would be pointless. So he did what he could get away with, mostly convincing the crusaders that they should support his proposals.

There'd be no Tukayyid, if the crusaders didn't wish there to be. But it was exactly what they wanted, what they fantasized about. Fighting a relatively small, and inexperienced, chunk of the IS military forces in honorable trial-like war for the most important objective in their operation, shaving years off their campaign.

He activated the reserve clans, but that was allowed because the homies were heavily supporting it, for a chance to join the invasion, and thinning out their rivals in the homeworlds.

I sincerely doubt there is any way for the ilKhan, or the grand council, to depose a Khan. If there was, they'd got rid of Ulric a long time ago (and they sure tried...)
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 30 June 2014, 14:00:29
3) The wolves were given the center corridor not because the FRR were an easy target, at the start of the invasion the clans did not know about the creation of the FRR.  The wolves were given the center corridor because the Jags and the Falcons believed they could outpace the Wolves and then suffocate their expansion.  While the Jags and Falcons could spread out, the Wolves would have to fight through CGB, CJF, and CSJ for any expansion.  This was the plan by Leo Showers.  However, Ulric outpaced all the other clans and actually cut off CGB's expansion causing them to bleed in to CSJ's corridor.
I'm pretty sure I've read before that the Clans did know of the FRR, and assigned that corridor to the Wolves because defeating an unknown minor power was seen as less glorious that fighting one of the Great Houses.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkaris on 30 June 2014, 15:30:56
I'm pretty sure I've read before that the Clans did know of the FRR, and assigned that corridor to the Wolves because defeating an unknown minor power was seen as less glorious that fighting one of the Great Houses.

They did not know about the FRR until after they meet up with Comstar, which was after the corridors had been assigned.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Maingunnery on 30 June 2014, 16:25:19
The various clan watches, are the police officers of the clans. And clan laws are only for the civies; for warriors: you can do whatever you want, break any rule, as long as you got the power to beat up anyone that would say otherwise (i.e. ToR/ToG). The Khans are the leader of nations, like presidents and prime ministers; but the ilKhan? He's like the chairman of the UN; he can frown, threaten, but only has power as long as someone listens to him.
The power of an IlKhan is only limited by his/her own political and martial power. A weak IlKhan can be disposed of in no time, a strong IlKhan can last for a long time and force nearly anything with their political and martial power (at some risk of course).

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Expecting the ilKhan to be some altruistic idealistic fanatic, that would hurt his own clan to help their enemies "in the name of the greater good", is unrealistic. Simply give me one example of an ilKhan that jeopardized the interests of his own clan, to help other clans.
A false choice.

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I think working together is against their culture.
Of course it is, they are designed to ruthlessly compete with each-other. This is where the job of the IlKhan comes in, its their job to force the operation to a successful end. An IlKhan might do some dubious things during an Operation that benefit his Clan, or wreck another Clan, but as long as the Operation succeeds is all fine.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 30 June 2014, 16:50:30
Of course it is, they are designed to ruthlessly compete with each-other. This is where the job of the IlKhan comes in, its their job to force the operation to a successful end. An IlKhan might do some dubious things during an Operation that benefit his Clan, or wreck another Clan, but as long as the Operation succeeds is all fine.
And here's the kicker. Could Ulric actually force the crusaders to do something they don't want? The whole reason they appointed him as ilKhan, was to marginalize him; they didn't intend for him to lead them, just be trotted as a trophy at the head of their armies...
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 30 June 2014, 22:27:43
I don't believe that Ulric viewed the Wardens and Crusaders in terms of good and bad.  More likely he viewed the Crusaders as misguided.  However, there likely were individual Crusaders (and Wardens) that he viewed as bad or evil, such as Leo Showers or Galaxy Commander Cordera Perez.

This is true.  I totally agree. 

But on the other side of the Great Debate coin, the Crusaders often have been shown to feel particularly righteous in just about all of their actions.  Not to say that certain Wardens didn't feel that way when they won political victories over Crusaders, or outbid them to fight an engagement, etc.  Duels between the two sides were probably non-stop in the years running up to the IS invasion.  I bet there was much strutting and boasting after those from both parties.

But to get back on track, the Crusaders regarded Ulric as a traitor, and as a nearly (or in private, fully) dezgra Warden.  Even if Ulric himself simply felt that the Crusaders were misguided, it didn't change a thing for him.

And here's the kicker. Could Ulric actually force the crusaders to do something they don't want? The whole reason they appointed him as ilKhan, was to marginalize him; they didn't intend for him to lead them, just be trotted as a trophy at the head of their armies...

He led them, and they followed.  But it can be hard going to keep up with the pack leader.  They should have broke their bids and brought in Galaxies to equal Clan Wolf's bid.  Unless that would have been worse, and a whole Clan would have witnessed its own beginning of the end right after Tukayyid, quite possibly, if they still did not listen to the ilKhan about preparing for a fairly long-term ugly guerrilla war showdown with the Com Guards. 

Was it manipulation?  Maybe, that implies that Ulric actually had them conditioned.  I think the Crusaders did much of that their selves, and Ulric only facilitated events by playing his roles as good warlord who doesn't directly interfere with anyone's Clan.  A bit of all of this, most likely. 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 03 July 2014, 12:03:59
They did not know about the FRR until after they meet up with Comstar, which was after the corridors had been assigned.
That's not what it says on page 26 of the Wolf Clan Sourcebook.  It says explicitly that Clan Wolf were not allowed to bid on a corridor, but assigned  "the Rasalhague-Federated Commonwealth corridor, the one that seemed to offer the least potential for gaining glory and honor."
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 03 July 2014, 16:36:23
 

  Sorry all.  Things got busy for a bit in the real world.

In the text you yourself quoted, Ulric disagrees with you:

"You are telling me you will turn this contest into a Trial of Absorption!"

"No, it is a Trial of Refusal- a refusal to let you destroy the Clans.  If the Wolves perish to save the rest, so be it."
 
[/quote]

Did you even bother to read what you quoted?  He clearly states that it is still a Trial of Refusal NOT a Trial of Absorption.

I'm going to reply both of these as one because it's the same point.

You'll note that Ulric wasn't being literal.  He states it's a 'Trial of Refusal' (and yes it was) but then he explains it's a Trial of Refusal over the Jade Falcons attempting to destroy the Clans (by invading the Inner Sphere).

Which we know is technically false.  It's technically a Trial of Refusal to refute the Grand Council's guilty verdict of Ulric.

Chrichell states it's actually a Trial of Absorption because whomever wins will Absorb the other.

Ulric disagrees and says this is actually over being able to re-invade.  He confirms Chrichell's point, however, by acknowledging that Clan Wolf may very well die in the trial.

In other words:

-  It's a Trial of Refusal over Ulric's guilt or innocence (and whether he remains ilKhan or not)
-  If Ulric loses the ilKhanship, the Jade Falcons will relaunch the Invasion.  So long as Ulric remains ilKhan, the truce will hold.
-  Whichever Clan loses will be Absorbed.

It's a 'de facto' Trial of Absorbtion.  It's a Trial of Refusal, but the outcome is the same.

Piece of advice reread what you write before you post.  You stated that Clan Wolf was absorbed for being guilty of high treason.  Which is completely incorrect.  That wasn't even Chistu's (or even Crichell's) rationale.  Chistu's justification was that Clan Wolf turned the Trial into a defacto Trial of Absorption when they bid everything in the Trial of Refusal.

First, please reread what you write before you post.  You had said if Clan Wolf was guilty of treason it'd be Annihilated in this post (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,39553.msg918620.html#msg918620)

Now then, I'm sorry if I was unclear.  Clan Wolf was Absorbed for being guilty of high treason for the same reason the Nova Cats were 'Annihilated' for fighting with the SLDF in the Great Refusal.  (They were, technically, Abjured.  Many Clans, however, attempted to Annihilate them in an act of frustration).  Like Ulric, so long as the Jade Falcons got what they wanted (a resumed invasion) they had no intention of punishing Clan Wolf to any real degree.

However, if they didn't get their way, then they'd turn their attention to Clan Wolf and use that guilty charge against them, and indeed, that's what happened.  Consider the following facts:

1)  The charges were trump charges to begin with- even in the eyes of the Clans.  We know this because Ulric wasn't executed.  As you pointed out earlier, the standard punishment is execution up to Annihilation (in a fashion) as the defendant's offspring are killed as well.  Ulric, however, was only removed from his position as ilKhan.  The goal was simply to remove him from power so the invasion could be resumed.  Chrichell even talks about Ulric participating in a resumed invasion.  In addition, per my earlier post, should Clan Wolf lose the Refusal War and the invasion resumed, there was no talk of retribution (despite being guilty).

2)  In Bred for War, Natasha explains to Phelan that he is to flee to the Inner Sphere pernamently due to the fact that so long as the Invasion is halted, the Clans will continue to try and destroy Clan Wolf.  This is why Ulric didn't intend to win the Refusal War-  he was convinced that should he win, another Clan would take the Falcons place in attempting to oust him and destroy Clan Wolf. 

3)  Again, despite being guilty of genocide and high treason, Clan Wolf was not targeted for further punishment at the conclusion of the Refusal War.  Like Ulric's removal of the ilKhanship, this appears to have been enough.  Per Ulric and Natasha, had Clan Wolf not been Absorbed, the other Clans would continue to try and destroy them.

4)  Crichell created Jade Wolf specifically to save Vlad and his Wolves from punishment.  Again, this means that had he simply undone the Absorption, Clan Wolf would be destroyed for being guilty of treason.  The fact that this hadn't already happened means that an Absorption was adequate punishment.
 
5)  Finally, the very first thing Vlad had to contend with when he recreated the Clan was Khan Hawker (as I recall) in Malicious Intent stating that there was a guilty verdict of genocide and high treason against his Clan.  This is where Vlad (infamously) stated that his Clan Wolf was a 'new' Clan Wolf, and therefor not guilty of the previous incarnations crimes.

In other words, so long as Clan Wolf was either a part of the Jade Falcons or a part of the 'Jade Wolves' no punishment was sought by the Clans.  As soon as Vlad claimed to be 'once again Clan Wolf', though, the charge of treason was brought up immediately.

When I said Clan Wolf was Absorbed for being guilty of high treason earlier, I didn't mean they were subject of an official Trial of Absorption after being found guilty-  I meant that being Absorbed was sufficient punishment, and the high treason verdict prevented Crichell and Vlad from simply undoing the Absorption.

So by your logic with the Falcons unable to resume the invasion, they are going to further weaken their forces by continuing the conflict against the Wolves which in turn would further delay their ability to resume the invasion and open their IS holdings to Viper predation.

Well, first of all, it was Ulric's logic  ^-^

He and Natasha specifically tell Phelan he is to remain in the Inner Sphere because even if Ulric and Natasha win the Refusal War, they'd be subjected to attacks by other Clans afterwards.

Also, I didn't state the Falcons would continue to fight the Wolves-  I stated that they didn't intend any punishment should they win.  The other Clans though? Yes, they would.  Vlad and Marthe had to ally themselves to attempt and prevent being subjected to Absorptions-  which is why the Falcons invaded the Lyrans while the Wolves struck the Jaguars.  It's also why Vlad came up with the Harvest Trials.

As I pointed out above, the Ice Hellions jumped on Vlad as soon as they thought they could with the charge of treason. 

We know the treason charge would be used against the Wolves because it was attempted.

Sure he could have given orders, but that doesn't mean the Clans had to obey him.  If he had tried to be the Clan equivalent of Focht overseeing all the individual Clan campaigns and giving directions, most of the other Clans would have simply ignored him.  Any attempt to make things easier for the Clans to win, such as forbidding Batchall during the battle, would have resulted in angry protest and possibly even a trial or two.  Not to mention that much of his advice while perfectly sound Wolf strategies/tactics were likely considered either too Wolf or chalcas by the other Clans.

So in other words, you're saying if Ulric actually tried to do his job it wouldn't have mattered... which excuses his not attempting to do his job at all, but actually work against what he was supposed to be doing... how, exactly?

I don't think many would accept the the excuse of "Well I don't think we can win this war, and my soldiers aren't going to listen to me anyway" as justification for intentionally working against your side's goals in a war.

The Sharks were in a completely different situation.  One, their Khans remained in command of their forces through the entire battle.  Two, while they had suffered some heavy losses, they were not in danger of being completely annihilated until the Smoke Jaguars' withdrawal enabled Focht to redeploy troops to cut the Clan off from their supplies.  Three, at that point the Diamond Shark Khans realized that they were in danger of being annihilated and voluntarily chose to withdraw (if they made it back to their DropShips).  As far as Ulric was aware, once the Jaguars withdrew, their ComGuard opponents could have been redeployed against any Clan including Clan Wolf.  Its also clearly stated that the Sixth Jaguar Dragoons viewed his withdrawal order as a Wolf insult rather than

Which doesn't make any sense.

1)  The Sharks took more casualties than the Jaguars and were in greater danger of being destroyed as a Clan, yet Ulric orders the Jaguars to retreat and doesn't even so much as suggest to the Sharks that they're in danger.
2)  If he left the Sharks to deal with the Comguard units because 'for all he knew' they could be redeployed against the other Clans, including Clan Wolf... why didn't he leave the Smoke Jaguars do deal with the Comguard units they were fighting?  Because those very units were redeployed against the other Clans, including Clan Wolf.
3)  It's just a coincidence I'm sure that one of two units Ulric ordered to retreat refused to do so and nearly won Tukayyid for the Clans  :)

So you consider a bodyguard unit of SL-era assault 'Mechs nothing?  Okaay.   ::)

The scenario gives the 122nd Striker Cluster 35 light Omnis (after the ambush) against 13 SL-era assault Mechs and some infantry.  Using zell, Focht and his bodyguards could have held their own.

You are aware that I was suggesting that fight would have gone differently had Ulric not successfully managed to order an entire Galaxy of Jaguars out of the area right?

Lead the Crusaders?  Since when did he ever promise to lead the Crusaders?  He may have been honorbound to lead the Clan Invasion but it was his choice as to how to lead it.  That said the other Khans always had the option of declaring a Trial against him (which they eventually did).

And he was found guilty ;)

Well as you are obviously a Crusader that is clearly your opinion but then to Crusaders Edwina Carns avoiding killing or even wounding Spheroid warriors is treasonous as well.

Is this where I call you a Warden?

How about instead I, again, ask for your sources.  I've given plenty- including sources where both Focht and Phelan (two members of Ulric's circle of closest friends/allies) and were most certainly against the Invasion (unlike the Crusader led Grand Council) stating that he abused his powers and intentionally threw the Invasion?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 03 July 2014, 17:25:01
 

  Sorry all.  Things got busy for a bit in the real world.


I'm going to reply both of these as one because it's the same point.

You'll note that Ulric wasn't being literal.  He states it's a 'Trial of Refusal' (and yes it was) but then he explains it's a Trial of Refusal over the Jade Falcons attempting to destroy the Clans (by invading the Inner Sphere).

Which we know is technically false.  It's technically a Trial of Refusal to refute the Grand Council's guilty verdict of Ulric.

Chrichell states it's actually a Trial of Absorption because whomever wins will Absorb the other.

Ulric disagrees and says this is actually over being able to re-invade.  He confirms Chrichell's point, however, by acknowledging that Clan Wolf may very well die in the trial.

In other words:

-  It's a Trial of Refusal over Ulric's guilt or innocence (and whether he remains ilKhan or not)
-  If Ulric loses the ilKhanship, the Jade Falcons will relaunch the Invasion.  So long as Ulric remains ilKhan, the truce will hold.
-  Whichever Clan loses will be Absorbed.

It's a 'de facto' Trial of Absorbtion.  It's a Trial of Refusal, but the outcome is the same.
On the contrary, its Crichell who wasn't being literal.  One can understand it as a de facto Absorption, but it's nonetheless a Refusal.  The Wolves are refusing the vote.  Yes, he says it will decide whether or not the Falcons renew the invasion (and thereby destroy the clans in a renewed invasion), but Ulric never makes it out to actually be anything but a refusal of the treason vote, in fact Crichell denies (rather feebly) that the Falcons have any plans to renew the invasion when he's called out on it.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 03 July 2014, 17:48:12
On the contrary, its Crichell who wasn't being literal.  One can understand it as a de facto Absorption, but it's nonetheless a Refusal.  The Wolves are refusing the vote.  Yes, he says it will decide whether or not the Falcons renew the invasion (and thereby destroy the clans in a renewed invasion), but Ulric never makes it out to actually be anything but a refusal of the treason vote, in fact Crichell denies (rather feebly) that the Falcons have any plans to renew the invasion when he's called out on it.

It's often stated on this board (including this thread even) that the Falcons had no right to Absorb the Wolves at the end of the war-  that what they did (Chistu Absorbing the Wolves, Chrichell spinning off the Wolves into the Jade Wolves, Vlad recreating the Clan etc. etc.) is all blatantly illegal and doesn't stand up under Clan law because you need 75% vote of the Grand Council before you can Absorb a Clan etc. etc.

My point is that it wasn't illegal because by bidding an entire Clan for the first time in a trial, Ulric effectively turned it into a Trial of Absorption.  A 'de facto' Absorption, as while it is technically one of Refusal... the outcome is an Absorption.

I'm not saying it became an official, de jure, Absorption because it clearly wasn't one (Vlad being able to Refute it is one such obvious reason)- but yes, it was known before the Refusal War began that it had the same outcome.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Hellraiser on 06 July 2014, 02:24:37
With Ulric I always felt that participating in an invasion and then hamstringing the success of such an invasion seems like creating a meat grinder.
Considering Ulric was not ilKhan till the 5th & final wave of the invasion, & while in charge of his clan they were winning more than any other clan, I'm not sure how he was hamstringing ANYONE or creating a meat grinder.


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Take Tukayyid as an example. The only reason for the trial was to give the Inner Sphere a chance to halt the invasion and prepare better. For what? The only possible endstate you could predict would be a more even, and thus bloodier, war in the future.
How do you figure ?    Taking aside the fact that Tukayyid was NOT Ulric's idea but was instead Focht's.
1.  Tukayyid the location was chosen so that holy Terra not be savaged by actual battle.  Something the clans all agreed to.
2.  The clans were taking more & more losses as the IS wised up to who was invading them after Outreach.  It was in their best interest to skip over all that territory & just have a single fight for Terra.  Had they actually worked together or heck, just not bid themselves down to stupidly low levels they would have won. 

Every single clan that fought can really only blame themselves on why they lost.  Pride, Hubris, & Clan War Doctrine against Waste & use of small forces.  That is what lost them Tukayyid.  They were idiots who failed to realize that it works fine for a short term trial but its useless when the enemy is willing to stage a guerilla war & actually retreat from combat & conduct raids.  Or who is willing to use combined arms & overwhelming force instead of single combat.

Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Hellraiser on 06 July 2014, 02:25:16
I've been re-reading a lot of early clan invasion stuff and as far as I understand the things Ulric did seem so obviously traitorous, I don't know how he got away with it for so long.
Care to give some examples ?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Hellraiser on 06 July 2014, 02:43:43
1)  The man had been elected to the post of ilKhan and his role was to lead the invasion and not do his best to undermine it at every opportunity as he did.  His position was supposed to be one of impartiality and he was to act as the Khan of Khans.  Instead, he intentionally and knowingly harmed the other Clans either by (for example) putting enemies together in the same corridors, or manipulating them into making mistakes to suffer losses.   
A.  They were Jaguars.  THEY DIDNT HAVE ANY ALLIES.   (Ditto the Falcons)  It didn't matter who they got paired with they pretty much hated everyone.  Heck, even the Falcons & Jags didn't like each other, they were just both rabid crusaders.
B.  If intentionally working against another clan when you are ilKhan is traitorous then by that rational, Showers & most every other ilKhan in history are also traitors.

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2) and Ulric continued to act against the Grand Council's decision even after he had been proven wrong under the law.
How exactly did he act against the Grand Council's decision?
He didn't stop the invasion when elected.

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Ulric undermined Turkayyid to buy him time to further shut the Crusaders down.
/boggle.  He told the other Khan's how to fight C*.
THEY choose to ignore him because they didn't like him.  Again, Hubris.

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from manipulating Vlad into coming up with the charges with Marialle Radick (Ulric locked down Conal's Bloodname, taunted Vlad over being unable to attain it, and ensured Vlad would have to remove Ulric to obtain a Bloodname),
/boggle.  Where are you getting this from?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 06 July 2014, 02:49:33
Every single clan that fought can really only blame themselves on why they lost.  Pride, Hubris, & Clan War Doctrine against Waste & use of small forces.  That is what lost them Tukayyid.  They were idiots who failed to realize that it works fine for a short term trial but its useless when the enemy is willing to stage a guerilla war & actually retreat from combat & conduct raids.  Or who is willing to use combined arms & overwhelming force instead of single combat.

I don't think that their idiocy is even in question. The question is whether Ulric could/should have stopped them from being idiots... With some fanatics claiming Ulric used his mind-control powers to make them stupid, or something.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Hellraiser on 06 July 2014, 02:53:47
This can't be proven. It's not a forgone conclusion that a crusader ilKhan would saddle the Wolves with with another Warden or Crusader Clan.   
Why would they have a need to?
They got another clan to help them because they were not able to keep up with the Wolves.
Giving the Wolves a 2nd Clan would have been like saying.  "Here, we really have given up all hope of beating you to Terra so just hand over Garrison of these worlds & free up some more troops to get to Terra by next week.

Quote
Ulric had everything to do with Tukayyid though.
Pretty sure Focht has claim to that.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Hellraiser on 06 July 2014, 03:17:31
The question is whether Ulric could/should have stopped them from being idiots... With some fanatics claiming Ulric used his mind-control powers to make them stupid, or something.
I suppose he could have had the various idiot clans shot & replaced with better successors......... oh wait.

Quote
The ilKhan serves as an arbiter between Clans
The ilKhan enjoys wide-ranging but not absolute power, as he answers to the Grand Council.
The ilKhan may not interfere with matters that are internal to a specific Clan.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Hellraiser on 06 July 2014, 03:33:49
My point is that it wasn't illegal because by bidding an entire Clan for the first time in a trial, Ulric effectively turned it into a Trial of Absorption.  A 'de facto' Absorption, as while it is technically one of Refusal... the outcome is an Absorption.

I'm not saying it became an official, de jure, Absorption because it clearly wasn't one (Vlad being able to Refute it is one such obvious reason)- but yes, it was known before the Refusal War began that it had the same outcome.

I can agree with this.  Its basically how a Trial of Absorption turns into a Trial of Annihilation because the Absorbee bids every last warrior to fight against the Absorption.

That said, the issue I have & will always have with the Falcons absorbing the Wolves is that as much as Ulric claimed that he "bid all that he had" towards defeating the Falcons, he actually didn't use much at all.

Basically 5 Galaxies participated in the trail.  Not 9-12 like they had, but only 5.
So even with that much destruction, the Wolves still had a huge force that the Falcons hadn't squared off with.

This gets glossed over a lot with all the unit shuffling that went on between Clan Wolf, Objective Raids, Falcon v Wolf, Crusader/Warden FM's.  But end result was no Falcon unit ever entered Wolf territory or engaged some 4-7 other galaxies of Wolf troops.  Let alone the 3 Galaxies Phelan had with him.

Now I get that the trial, in theory, was over the minute Ulric was dead, but since the Falcons cheated to accomplish that little act, well, there is a reason Vlad was able to blackmail those Khan's after all  ^-^  Had word gotten out he Turkies would have been lunch meat for several other clans.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 06 July 2014, 23:04:15
I don't think that their idiocy is even in question. The question is whether Ulric could/should have stopped them from being idiots... With some fanatics claiming Ulric used his mind-control powers to make them stupid, or something.

Ulric had to play it hands off.  The Crusaders were not going to allow Ulric to dictate their strategy or tactics, period.  They insisted upon their own path to destruction. 

He could have played a Leo Showers on the Jaguars and lived with them and rode their new Khan's tail night and day, but that type of churlish tyranny was not his style. 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 07 July 2014, 04:29:53
Especially since Leo showers was trying to hinder the wolves, not give helpful guidance...
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 08 July 2014, 01:06:57
How do you figure ?    Taking aside the fact that Tukayyid was NOT Ulric's idea but was instead Focht's.
1.  Tukayyid the location was chosen so that holy Terra not be savaged by actual battle.  Something the clans all agreed to.
2.  The clans were taking more & more losses as the IS wised up to who was invading them after Outreach.  It was in their best interest to skip over all that territory & just have a single fight for Terra.  Had they actually worked together or heck, just not bid themselves down to stupidly low levels they would have won. 

1)  Read the Blood of Kerensky trilogy.  Once Ulric becomes ilKhan, he teaches Focht about the inner workings of the Clans.  Focht (and Phelan) both comment throughout the trilogy how they feel that Ulric is constantly 'testing' them.  In other words, Ulric used Focht to set up Tukayyid.


Pretty sure Focht has claim to that.

Again, it's in the trilogy.  Here:

Quote
Lost Destiny
Chapter 42:

Focht smiled wryly and shook his head.  "How strange it is that you call me victor when, in fact, all that has happened here was your doing?  You knew exactly what would happen, when and probably where.  The Clans lost because you wanted them to lose."

The ilKhan stiffened, then clasped his hands at the small of his back.  He slowly began to pace, moving to avoid the fallen hulk of a Mad Cat.  "There are two errors in what you have said.  The first is that I would be guilty of treason had I done what you accuse, and treason is punishable by death.  As I do not desire death, I would not do that."

[Ulric goes on to suggest it was Focht drawing out the Trial, and then rambles about how the other Clans are stupid]

"Yet I note, ilKhan, that the Smoke Jaguars and the Wolves are political enemies.  I know well there is no love lost between the two Clans, and I cannot but wonder if you did not force a Smoke Jaguar Khan to woefully underbid by challenging him to do so."

Ulric's blue eyes glittered like chips of ice.  "That is a question that cannot be answered, as both Smoke Jaguar Khans died in the Dinju Mountains."
 

And then there's my previous quote in this thread, from Warriors of Kerensky where Phelan states:

Quote
Warriors of Kerensky
Under the ilKhan section

"However, increasing misuse of the position's authority led the clans to virtually abandon it after the impeachment of ilKhan Tobias Katib.  Even Ulric Kerensky abused the post, as his actions at Tukayyid were calculated to further the Warden agenda."

A.  They were Jaguars.  THEY DIDNT HAVE ANY ALLIES.   (Ditto the Falcons)  It didn't matter who they got paired with they pretty much hated everyone.  Heck, even the Falcons & Jags didn't like each other, they were just both rabid crusaders.
B.  If intentionally working against another clan when you are ilKhan is traitorous then by that rational, Showers & most every other ilKhan in history are also traitors.

Back up.  It was originally argued in this thread that Ulric didn't fight the invasion- that he 'did his job'.  An example that was given was that he activated the reserved Clans... until I pointed out that:
1) He only did it because the other Khans pressured him into it and,
2) So he could slow down the Invasion.

And now it's 'Oh, well, intentionally working against the other Clans isn't wrong'.  The original point that was made was that Ulric activated the other Clans to help.  He didn't.  He did it to impede the invasion.

And yes, he's supposed to help all the Clans- not just Clan Wolf.  I.e, he wasn't doing the job.  As for other ilKhans abusing the office?  Yes.  That's why the ilKhan position was retired until the invasion as Phelan notes in the quote above.

Was it treason?  That's arguable.  But according to the exchange between Ulric and Focht above- by Ulric's own admission- trying to prevent the Clans from winning in general is treason, yes.

How exactly did he act against the Grand Council's decision?
He didn't stop the invasion when elected.

When the Grand Council decided to invade, Ulric called for a Trial of Refusal.  If he won, the invasion would have been proven morally wrong and the whole thing would never have happened.  At all.  A Trial of Refusal is the be all and end all- it's final.

Ulric (and Clan Wolf) lost the Trial of Refusal.  That means that, under Clan law, Ulric (and Clan Wolf) were wrong.  The Invasion is morally just, and necessary.  Ulric was honour bound to abide by the Trial of Refusal-  just like the Clans couldn't invade again after the Great Refusal, so Ulric must invade... and yet we have Phelan and Natasha telling Ragnar when he's first captured that they're doing everything they can to slow down and halt the invasion.

Ulric had a recourse and a chance to prevent the Invasion.  He failed. 

And then he kept trying to halt it anyway-  eventually resorting to killing off Clan Wolf.

/boggle.  He told the other Khan's how to fight C*.
THEY choose to ignore him because they didn't like him.  Again, Hubris.

Nope.  Focht realizes that Ulric just let them 'twist in the wind'.

That's on top of the whole implied forcing them to underbid thing...

/boggle.  Where are you getting this from?

Ulric engineered everything.  Focht isn't exaggerating when he says Ulric likely knew how everything would play out on Tukayyid.  He's literally a Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard).  He fits the trope to a T

Phelan's rise through the ranks and becoming the saKhan of Clan Wolf was Ulric's doing.  So too was making Natasha kerensky the kaKhan.  He used Focht to set up Tukayyid and get a fifteen year truce to the Invasion.  He engineered the Refusal War.

...and in Bred for War Ulric reveals to Vlad his plan to kill off the Wolf Crusaders against the Falcons.  He explains that he got the idea from the Red Corsair affair.

Which, incidentally, was just before he mercilessly crushed Vlad's hope at a Bloodname-  unless Vlad could somehow unseat Ulric.

As I said, it's never said outright... I don't have a quote but the timeline works like this:

-Red Corsair affair happens.  Ulric gets the idea for the Refusal War.
-Ulric locks down Conal's Bloodname, and mercilessly taunts Vlad over it.
-Vlad becomes determined to remove Ulric from the ilKhanship so he can try and get Conal's Bloodname.  He comes up with the treason charges .

-Ulric takes the charges from Clan Wolf Council (where he can easily beat them) to the Grand Council (where he can't)
-Ulric is found guilty (surprise!) and calls a simple Trial of Refusal.  Natasha, having previously planned with Ulric,  throws Clan Wolf to his defense.
-Ulric bids the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons, much to the Falcons' horror
-Ulric orders Phelan on a one way trip wtih 33% of the Clan's equipment , the 'best' Wardens, a full copy of the genetic legacies and...orders Vlad to gather the survivors after Wotan and join Phelan in exile.
-Ulric gleefully kills off as many Wolves and Falcons as he can, as he finally got that Refusal War he wanted.

Considering how well everything was planned out, and that the planning goes back to before he uncharacteristically went after Vlad (who he didn't care about up until that point...), and that event is the very thing that brought up the charges Ulric needed...

I think he did it, knowing full well what Vlad find a way to get him removed.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 08 July 2014, 02:53:20
Lost Destiny
Chapter 42:
-snip-
OK, all I see here is Ulric vehemently denies what you claim. If, according to you Focht was his puppet/underling/co-conspirator, why would he deny? Is Focht going to oust to the clans? It's more likely that Focht would consider himself and the IS indebted to him.
What Ulric says, is what we're been saying all along: Ulric followed the clans laws to the letter; all he did was allow stupid clanners to hang themselves, which is a time honored tradition in the clans and goes with their Darwinian outlook. If a warrior is an idiot, or worse, blindly follows an idiot, than he deserves to die.

Also, Focht attributing Urlic with god-like omniscience, probably due to being glamoured by his personality.

Warriors of Kerensky
Under the ilKhan section
-snip-
And yes, he's supposed to help all the Clans- not just Clan Wolf.  I.e, he wasn't doing the job.  As for other ilKhans abusing the office?  Yes.
You can't convict him for not being any worse than his predecessors. Especially since the only ilKhans in his lifetime was Leo Showers; Ulric was merely following his example. I don't see anyone making threads about "Was Leo Showers a traitor?" because he actively hindered the wolves. Considering that wolves were the most effective force in the invasion, and were close to delivering Terra to the clans, isn't putting sticks in their invasion wheels just as treasonous if not more?

The fact that most/all ilKhans abused the post, is the entire point. Ulric shouldn't be judged by different standards because he's a warden. If all ilKhans are "treasonous" by your standards, than your standards are wrong, as they have been proven to be untenable. The alternative is claiming that all the supreme leaders of the clans were traitors.

Back up.  It was originally argued in this thread that Ulric didn't fight the invasion- that he 'did his job'.  An example that was given was that he activated the reserved Clans... until I pointed out that:
1) He only did it because the other Khans pressured him into it and,
2) So he could slow down the Invasion.
Either he did against his will to help the invasion, or he did purposely to sabotage the invasion. Can't have it both ways.

Ulric (and Clan Wolf) lost the Trial of Refusal.  That means that, under Clan law, Ulric (and Clan Wolf) were wrong.  The Invasion is morally just, and necessary.  Ulric was honour bound to abide by the Trial of Refusal-  just like the Clans couldn't invade again after the Great Refusal, so Ulric must invade... and yet we have Phelan and Natasha telling Ragnar when he's first captured that they're doing everything they can to slow down and halt the invasion
Everything THEY can? All the invasion corridors were slowed and halted by the incompetence and hubris of the clans. All the invasion corridors except for the wolf corridor, as they were steamrolling the FRR, and piledriving straight to Terra.

I guess the Wolves ere so incompetent, they couldn't even slow their own invasion, huh? 8)

And then he kept trying to halt it anyway-  eventually resorting to killing off Clan Wolf.
"Looks at Wolf Empire". Oh well, I guess they got better...
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 08 July 2014, 17:40:07

And then there's my previous quote in this thread, from Warriors of Kerensky where Phelan states:
Quote
Warriors of Kerensky[/size]Under the ilKhan section"However, increasing misuse of the position's authority led the clans to virtually abandon it after the impeachment of ilKhan Tobias Katib.  Even Ulric Kerensky abused the post, as his actions at Tukayyid were calculated to further the Warden agenda."

"further[ing] the Warden agenda" does not equal "betraying the Clans."  Warden and Crusader are political movements within the clans.  If he was indeed abusing his position to advance the Warden cause (and I have no reason to doubt that he was), that's still furthering the clan agenda.  Not staying neutral in inter-clan politics is not the same as betraying the clans.  If it was, Nicholas Kerensky was a traitor to the clans.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 08 July 2014, 21:45:46
Moderators I believe this thread can be shut down as it is going nowhere fast.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: blackjack on 08 July 2014, 22:59:14
I fail to see Ulric's actions as traitorous. I have always felt that the crusader clans were the true traitors to Kerensky's vision. He didn't say lets build up a giant army & destroy the inner sphere. End of argument the crusaders were & are the traitors.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 12 July 2014, 10:23:59
Moderators I believe this thread can be shut down as it is going nowhere fast.

This is the thread that would not die
It may yet cost users their eyes

Some people started typing it not knowing what they'd done
But we keep harping on it due to our strange sense of fun...   ;)
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Seras on 21 July 2014, 13:41:32
Ulric was a traitor for one simple reason. The IS is huge and clan warriors are few.

He feared that invading the IS would destroy the clans in the long run:

" the clans would run over the IS and then die a slow unglorious death"

So he sabotaged the invasion at every opertunity that presented itself to save the clans as he knew them.

From a clan persective that is treasonous, however looking at the state of the clans in 3145 I feel a strong need to say: "Ulric was right ".


 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Maingunnery on 21 July 2014, 13:44:26
So he sabotaged the invasion at every opertunity that presented itself to save the clans as he knew them.
So like shooting somebody in the head to save them...... not buying it
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Seras on 21 July 2014, 13:52:09
Hey I NEVER said it was a good plan  ;)

Stackpole also invented the Phantommech ability which then was removed as fast as possible from the backround  ;)
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Maingunnery on 21 July 2014, 13:53:21
Hey I NEVER said it was a good plan  ;)
He had a plan and that plan was to sacrifice the Clans for his convictions. He was quite successful.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 21 July 2014, 14:20:38
Ulric was a traitor for one simple reason. The IS is huge and clan warriors are few.

He feared that invading the IS would destroy the clans in the long run:

" the clans would run over the IS and then die a slow unglorious death"

So he sabotaged the invasion at every opertunity that presented itself to save the clans as he knew them.

From a clan persective that is treasonous, however looking at the state of the clans in 3145 I feel a strong need to say: "Ulric was right ".
There's two major problems here:
1) That's not what Ulric did.
2) Even if it was, it isn't traitorous.

1) As has been stated many times in this thread, Ulric was leading the most successful clan in the invasion, the clan that progressed faster and captured more worlds than any other.  At Tukayyid, he gave good advice the other clans that they ignored.  That isn't sabotaging the invasion.  If anything, he was beating the Crusaders at their own game.

2)  The invasion was what the Crusaders wanted.  The Wardens wanted to protect the IS from external threats (like, say, the Crusaders).  If he was trying to sabotage the invasion, he was actually furthering the aims of his group, and only thwarting those of the opposing group.  That isn't treason from a clan perspective.  That might be treason from a Crusader perspective.  Except that Ulric can't be a traitorous Crusader, because he's a Warden.  It would be like accusing Woodrow Wilson of being a traitor to the Allies because he disagreed with the PM of England about the provisions of the Versailles treaty.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 21 July 2014, 15:49:31
There's two major problems here:
1) That's not what Ulric did.
2) Even if it was, it isn't traitorous.

1) As has been stated many times in this thread, Ulric was leading the most successful clan in the invasion, the clan that progressed faster and captured more worlds than any other.  At Tukayyid, he gave good advice the other clans that they ignored.  That isn't sabotaging the invasion.  If anything, he was beating the Crusaders at their own game.

2)  The invasion was what the Crusaders wanted.  The Wardens wanted to protect the IS from external threats (like, say, the Crusaders).  If he was trying to sabotage the invasion, he was actually furthering the aims of his group, and only thwarting those of the opposing group.  That isn't treason from a clan perspective.  That might be treason from a Crusader perspective.  Except that Ulric can't be a traitorous Crusader, because he's a Warden.  It would be like accusing Woodrow Wilson of being a traitor to the Allies because he disagreed with the PM of England about the provisions of the Versailles treaty.

As I've stated before:

1) As I and others have pointed out, it's stated that Clan Wolf's success was a 'backup plan' should they fail to stop the Invasion.  In addition, I have yet to see anyone provide sources that Ulric provided actual 'good advice'.  Instead:
  -  We have Phelan stating that Ulric abused his authority to 'further the Warden agenda'
  -  Focht and Ulric's discussion that strongly implies that Ulric forced other Clans to *under*bid on Tukayyid, as well as 'let them twist in the wind'

2) Ulric fought a Trial of Refusal prior to the Invasion.  He lost.  That was his lawful attempt to prevent the Invasion.  When the Crusaders lost the Great Refusal, that ended Operation Revival-  just like his Trial of Refusal should have ended his attempts to stop the Invasion.  As for sabotage not being treason- it is.  He outright told Focht it is.

Your two points conflict.  You state in your first point that Ulric did not, in fact, attempt to sabotage the Invasion (E.g, he gave 'good advice' to help and conquered plenty of worlds) and then state in the second that attempting to sabotage the Invasion is just being a good Warden.

So which is it?  Did he attempt to sabotage the Invasion or not?   Was he a traitor to the Wardens and help the Crusaders, or was he a 'good Warden' and (in his own words to Focht) commit treason outright?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 21 July 2014, 16:24:07
I'm saying that he didn't, and even if he had been working to undermine the Crusader agenda, it wouldn't have constituted treason.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 21 July 2014, 16:34:42
I'm saying that he didn't, and even if he had been working to undermine the Crusader agenda, it wouldn't have constituted treason.

If it didn't constitute treason, then why didn't he?  He's supposedly a Warden, afterall.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 21 July 2014, 17:29:28
Because not participating in the invasion means those worlds get conquered by Crusaders who don't have his concern for the people's well-being?  Because he figured that, since the vote had been lost, the best way to advance the Warden cause was to get to Terra first and become ilClan?  Because at some point machismo took over and he just felt obligated to beat the Falcons, Jaguars, et al to prove he was better than them, even if it wasn't a game of his choosing?  Any of those, or some combination of them, will probably work.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Sid on 21 July 2014, 17:44:42
Because not participating in the invasion means those worlds get conquered by Crusaders who don't have his concern for the people's well-being?  Because he figured that, since the vote had been lost, the best way to advance the Warden cause was to get to Terra first and become ilClan?  Because at some point machismo took over and he just felt obligated to beat the Falcons, Jaguars, et al to prove he was better than them, even if it wasn't a game of his choosing? 

As ilKhan he is supposed to lead all the Clans to victory as he's acting as the 'Khan of Khans'. 

Aside from that, none of what you listed conflicts with forcing the other Clans to underbid on Tukayyid and lead the Wolves to be the sole victor of Tuakayyid on the Clan side, yet you stated that he tried to help all the Clans win and conquer the Inner Sphere.

Speaking of which...

Any of those, or some combination of them, will probably work.

Do you not have a source which states that backs up those reasons?  We'd know then which would 'probably work'.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 21 July 2014, 18:09:22
I don't think Ulric was ever a POV character, so we don't really have direct access to his thoughts, but I'll see what I can look up when I get back to my books.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 21 July 2014, 18:33:59
For every clanner, regardless of position:
First priority: Personal glory.
Second priority: glory of the clan over other clans.
Third (and distant) priority: glory of all clans over spheroid scum.
In that order, agreed?

If the glory of your clan is better served by letting another clan be humiliated by spheroids, than that what you do. You point and laugh, and say "I guess they're not as good a clanners as my clan of badasses...".
That's just being a clanner mean. Doing otherwise, would make you no better than spheroid scumbags.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 21 July 2014, 19:08:27
For every clanner, regardless of position:
First priority: Personal glory.
Second priority: glory of the clan over other clans.
Third (and distant) priority: glory of all clans over spheroid scum.
In that order, agreed?

Nope.  Personal glory is only a high priority in the Warrior Caste and possible Scientist (scientific success, new tech, etc) and Merchant  (good deals, etc) castes.  It is far less important for those in the Technician and Labor castes especially those who go to bed members of one Clan and wake up the next morning members of another Clan.  The Crusaders rank the glory of all clans over spheroid higher than the Wardens. You left out at least three major priorities that I can think of - survival of the Clan (was a high priority for warriors of Clan Blood Spirit who were expected to sacrifice their personal honor for the sake of their Clan), Bloodname House survival and glory (important in Snow Raven politics) and glory of the warrior's chosen political faction (Crusaders vs Wardens).
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 21 July 2014, 19:41:36
I don't think Ulric was ever a POV character, so we don't really have direct access to his thoughts, but I'll see what I can look up when I get back to my books.
Ok, that's not correct, he is at times a POV character in Lost Destiny.  in the second part of Chapter 27, Ulric, Natasha, Phelan, and Ranna are discussing the bidding.  I'm not going to post pages of text here, but the tone seems quite genuine.  I don't pick up any indication that Ulric is lying when he tells them that the other clans wanted the Wolves to stay out for two weeks but he "managed to whittle it down to five days."  If he'd wanted them to lose, he could easily have held the Wolves out longer.  Ulric also says talks about the other clans as idiots for bidding away so much of their strength and discounting ComStar's conventional assets and is described as sounding "weary". Phelan says "We will defeat ComStar, quiaff?" and Ulric basically shrugs, says "I don't know", and drinks some more Timbiqui Dark.  At no point do any of these prominent Wardens even broach he possibility of losing intentionally, they seem genuinely intent on winning, Natasha especially says as much.


In the aftermath (chapter 42) Focht and Ulric are meeting and Focht questions Ulric on acting only as the Wolf commander.  He says, among other things "it was determined that control of the individual operations would fall to the Clan Khans."  Also, that he "was permitted to review all data coming up from the planet" but wasn't required to pass it along or offer advice unless specifically requested, and no one asked for his input.  Focht's thoughts: "So, they forced you to act on your own and you let them twist in the wind."  So it would seem that I was wrong about him giving the other clans good advice.  They tied his hands in advance and never asked for his advice.  He did what he was allowed to do, which was apparently just leading the Wolves and reading everyone else's reports.  It does raise the question of who determined these policies, but I would suppose it was a Grand Council vote, the implication is certainly that it wasn't Ulric's choice.


There is one other instance, in Chapter 37, where Ulric and Conal are discussing the Wolf campaign.  Ulric has reined in Conal's Galaxy, and Conal is pissed about it.  Their conversation is essentially as follows (paraphrased because I'm leery of quoting too much text at a time):


Conal: But we were wining!
Ulric: And using up twice the allotted supplies.
C: So what?  You're just trying to disgrace me and mine.
U: BS, I'm proud of you and bragged on your guys to all the other Clans.
C: So why do we have to wait for Natasha?
U: She's not using up supplies too fast and you, sir, are no Natasha Kerensky.  Besides, she's being held back too.
C: ComSar are a bunch of dirty cowards, why don't they stand and fight?
U: Because they know we're not used to drawn out battles, and already used that to beat the Jags, and we don't have the supplies to waste here.
C: Bull, we could win tomorrow if you'd turn us lose.
U: You're wrong, and if you don't figure that out it's going to get you killed.


I was probably misremembering "don't use up supplies too fast, prepare for drawn out battle, etc etc" as Ulric's advice to other clans, rather than to his own Crusader elements.  My mistake, it's been years since I read the book last.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 21 July 2014, 19:49:07
Nope.  Personal glory is only a high priority in the Warrior Caste and possible Scientist (scientific success, new tech, etc) and Merchant  (good deals, etc) castes.  It is far less important for those in the Technician and Labor castes especially those who go to bed members of one Clan and wake up the next morning members of another Clan. 
An that would be relevant to Ulric, how?

The Crusaders rank the glory of all clans over spheroid higher than the Wardens.
Oh, not really. At the time REVIVAL most clans warden or crusader, agreed that spheroids are scum; the argument was about how those scum be treated...

And you aren't really trying to say the crusaders "placed the greater good" of the clans over their own and their clans? Because if that were the case, the Jaguar ilKhan (leader of the crusaders, and scare-monger extraordinaire) wouldn't have spent his time trying to hamper the wolf onslaught toward Terra... And the crusader Khans wouldn't have elected a warden ilKhans...

You left out at least three major priorities that I can think of - survival of the Clan (was a high priority for warriors of Clan Blood Spirit who were expected to sacrifice their personal honor for the sake of their Clan
I didn't bother with the basic stuff. When you do a to-do list for the day, do you write "Don't Die" at the top?

Bloodname House survival and glory (important in Snow Raven politics)
glory of the warrior's chosen political faction (Crusaders vs Wardens).
[/quote]
Meh. Most clan warriors probably didn't care much about politics beyond "let me shoot something. Anything.". The sole reason for the rise of the crusader faction of the wolves, was the thought that an entire generation might pass without shooting someone. Nobody felt bad about that someone being a green turkey.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 21 July 2014, 21:05:05
Ulric was a traitor for one simple reason. The IS is huge and clan warriors are few.

He feared that invading the IS would destroy the clans in the long run:

" the clans would run over the IS and then die a slow unglorious death"

So he sabotaged the invasion at every opportunity that presented itself to save the clans as he knew them.

From a clan perspective that is treasonous, however looking at the state of the clans in 3145 I feel a strong need to say: "Ulric was right ".

I agree with a lot of this, except the the main point.   :) 

Because it was not treachery to the Clans, it was doing what he could to keep the Clans from driving headlong at the will of the Crusaders who had taken political control of the Grand Council.   

Also, as discussed, and at tremendous length and breadth (and breath), Ulric's primary mode of treacherous shenanigans seemed to be offering proper advice on adapting to their new foes.  Advice that the Crusader Clans failed to heed.  That's hardly every step. 

Basically, you can't really effectively betray what has already doomed itself.  So indeed, Ulric was right.  He knew the outcome, no matter the timescale, warfare unending, stretched across the inhabited stars.  He knew that the Clans would come to a slow demise, fighting endless wars to keep collective control of all humanity, something that will not rest long under one banner, no matter how controlling or forceful the fist that holds that banner might be. 

Literal interpretation of the Kerenskys, Ulric's forebears, as carried out by the Crusaders, would have mostly earned the hatred of those that they sought to control through their bizarro Star League.  Everyone has heard the Star League line from every successor state army that ever passed through their neighborhood.  The Clan version would not be perceived as any better than the worst of those. 

Or that's my take, at the least.  Ulric was not a traitor.  But as I said, I respect your take too.   
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Maingunnery on 22 July 2014, 11:25:24
Ulric's primary mode of treacherous shenanigans seemed to be offering proper advice on adapting to their new foes.  Advice that the Crusader Clans failed to heed.  That's hardly every step.
As long as he wasn't IlKhan he wasn't obligated to make sure that the operation succeeds. And when he did became IlKhan his record is filled with weak/lacking leadership, and counter productive manipulations.

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Basically, you can't really effectively betray what has already doomed itself.  So indeed, Ulric was right.  He knew the outcome, no matter the timescale, warfare unending, stretched across the inhabited stars.  He knew that the Clans would come to a slow demise, fighting endless wars to keep collective control of all humanity, something that will not rest long under one banner, no matter how controlling or forceful the fist that holds that banner might be.
Pretty weak excuse for making the situation even worse for the Clans.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 22 July 2014, 11:47:06
All four invasion-era ilkhans made things worse for the other clans (well, maybe not Crichell, he didn't really reign long enough to do anything).  Ulric was probably the best of that lackluster company.  What did he do that compares to Showers micromanaging the Wolves, or Osis who retained khanship of the Jaguars even as ilKhan?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: A. Lurker on 22 July 2014, 12:08:59
Pretty weak excuse for making the situation even worse for the Clans.

Who needs an excuse? Whatever he did, the other Khans essentially let him get away with it.

And that's what ultimately counts in Clan politics, right? As long as you get away with what you're doing -- preferably while scoring some nice flashy victories in the process --, that proves you were morally right all along. (And even if you do trip up, as long as you have the good grace to die nobody'll dwell on the past overmuch either. Clan warriors have no time for that sort of sentimentality.) This whole bellyaching years after Ulric Kerensky's death about whether or not he should be considered a traitor by some arbitrary standard or other...simply doesn't strike me as something most Clan warriors would even think to engage in. The man did what he felt was necessary and ultimately died honorably enough; end of story, what's news today?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 22 July 2014, 12:31:02
Oh, not really. At the time REVIVAL most clans warden or crusader, agreed that spheroids are scum; the argument was about how those scum be treated...

Since when?  If they viewed spheroids as "mere scum" then why would they offer them the honor of the batchall?  Why bother with bidding?  Many warriors, few of them Crusaders, did see honor in the way the spheroids fought.

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And you aren't really trying to say the crusaders "placed the greater good" of the clans over their own and their clans? Because if that were the case, the Jaguar ilKhan (leader of the crusaders, and scare-monger extraordinaire) wouldn't have spent his time trying to hamper the wolf onslaught toward Terra... And the crusader Khans wouldn't have elected a warden ilKhans...

Huh?  Where did I say that?  Where did I even imply that?

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I didn't bother with the basic stuff. When you do a to-do list for the day, do you write "Don't Die" at the top?.

Some of what you left out was more than basic stuff and I limited myself to broad categories.  If you didn't want your list evaluated  then you shouldn't have asked for it.

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Meh. Most clan warriors probably didn't care much about politics beyond "let me shoot something. Anything.". The sole reason for the rise of the crusader faction of the wolves, was the thought that an entire generation might pass without shooting someone. Nobody felt bad about that someone being a green turkey.

So are you stating that most clan warriors never dream of becoming Khan?  At least understanding politics is a requirement to rising to high office in the Clans.  (Note: I said 'understanding' which is not saying that they have to be skilled at it.)  During the Harvest Trials, many crusaders placed personal glory AND glory of the crusaders above loyalty to their Clan while others remained loyal to their own Clan.  Do you think any of the other Clans really cared whether the Wolves got to shoot something or not?  The Wolves and their Falcon allies had to persuade the other Clan leaders why it was in their interest to see Ulric removed and they accomplished that task through politics.  They could just as easily attempted to remove him through force in a trial but they chose to attack him in the political arena.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 22 July 2014, 15:33:22
The average young warrior probably pictures the position of khan as something like this (only with more battlemechs)
(http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1366/91/1366913882904.jpg)

As they rise through the political ranks, they'll be in for a rude awakening, as it turns out to be more like this
(http://www.2flashgames.com/2fgkjn134kjlh1cfn81vc34/flash/f-Boring-Politics-3467.jpg)
Only with less battlemechs.

No one fantasizes about deliberating zoning laws.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: SteveRestless on 22 July 2014, 21:53:15
Personally, I always thought Conan was at his most miserable when he was saddled with the responsibilities of the throne. I also agree with your metaphor. I think both conan and a warrior of the clans is at his happiest at mid-level command. Where they have enough prestige to impress and get their way, but not so much responsibility that they never get to revel in the joy of combat.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Maingunnery on 23 July 2014, 13:25:11
All four invasion-era ilkhans made things worse for the other clans (well, maybe not Crichell, he didn't really reign long enough to do anything).  Ulric was probably the best of that lackluster company.  What did he do that compares to Showers micromanaging the Wolves, or Osis who retained khanship of the Jaguars even as ilKhan?
Or the worst. Of the four he was the most competent, but he didn't use that competency for the operation.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 23 July 2014, 14:12:44
He did his job; at times, maybe the bare minimum required, but he did his job. You can't call a guy a traitor for not pursuing a path that he finds morally objectionable (a path that was forced upon him, as has been said repeatedly) with sufficient zeal.

The crusaders knew exactly what they were getting when they forcibly elected a warden ilKhans. They were proably expecting him to be a lot worse. That he will try to sabotage the invasion at every turn, and that they will he have to drag him kicking and screaming to victory.

Instead he settled for outperforming them at every turn. And as we know, among the clans martial superiority is moral superiority.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Archangel on 23 July 2014, 14:35:07
Or the worst. Of the four he was the most competent, but he didn't use that competency for the operation.

I don't know.  After all, he did achieve both his initial goal of seizing the reigns of the invasion from the Crusaders and his primary goal and that of the Wardens of stopping the invasion, while his predecessor achieve neither his goals for either his Clan  or the Clans as a whole of conquering the Inner Sphere and reestablishing the Star League with the Smoke Jaguars as ilClan.  Everything else are just minor details.   ;)
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 23 July 2014, 14:39:19
Or the worst. Of the four he was the most competent, but he didn't use that competency for the operation.
I'm sorry, but I don't see what you mean.  How did he not use his competence for the operation?  Do you have an example?
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 25 July 2014, 22:53:52
Indeed, Ulric attempted to prepare the Clans for battle with the Com Guards, according to sources from the BoK novels to Wolf Clan Sourcebook.  All Khans agreed to Tukayyid  and then proceeded to ignore Ulric's advice on preparing for a long campaign, as opposed to quick pitched battles.  It is not a weak excuse at all I should say.  It's entirely the Crusader Khans' doings that caused Tukayyid to be a decisive victory for Comstar. 

From another point of view, even before Ulric was elected ilKhan, Clan Wolf outperformed all other Clans.  Ulrics's ascension was marked by his abandonment of the plan for waves, and freed all Clans to race toward Terra.  All of the Wolves' competitors were taxed to attempt to keep up with them anyways. 

The Crusader Clans could scarcely follow the Wolves example at any step, on top of their leadership's incredibly foolhardy political maneuver of kicking Ulric Kerensky upstairs to lead their invasion on the notion that this would somehow politically neutralize him and swing his Wolves to the Crusader cause, then they ignored his attempts at "leadership" (since he must keep his hands out of every other Clans' affairs, how can he be anything except the head of a confederation of warriors, and not a leader of a true army by Star League standards stretched beyond any known reasoning?  :) ).  It was not a well thought-out plan, and not following the most successful Khan's advice for conducting the largest battle the Clans had ever fought compounded their sorrow. 
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Maingunnery on 26 July 2014, 06:58:44

When the Crusaders forcibly elected Ulric to be ilKhan, they didn't expect that he would sabotage the Clans as a whole like he did. Normal IlKhans promote their own Clans but always try to go for success of the operation. So from their cultural context it makes sense, they thought that they would get a competent IlKhan and that IlKhan would have mostly have to get his glory from the general success of the operation (because the wolf corridor was light on glory oppertunities).

Glory in the Clans is connected with benefiting the Clans. A warrior that earns glory is a strong warrior. That warriors genes will then be added to the next generation, making the Clans stronger. And a normal Wardens still see themselves as part of the Clans and thus will seek glory (and the benefit to the Clans in the end). From a normal Warden perfective it would be best if the Clans 'reformed' the IS with a Warden IlClan at the head.
The big problem was that Ulric isn't an average warden, he was an extremist warden. From a Clan perspective Ulric was quite an out-of-context monster.

Ulric didn't bend the system, he worked against the system.

While he was Ilkhan he didn't do the work that he was responsible for. Ulric knew what was needed and how to implement it with force and manipulations (from his experiece with his own Crusaders). But he didn't do it for others and left them without the needed leadership. This way he managed to preserve more troops then the other Clans. At the end of the invasion this would allow him to either win Terra or to turn his troops against the other invading Clans (weakening/stopping any follow up invasions). 

He could have easily have activated all the other Clans and gave them new invasion corrodors to unbalance the Houses, as was his right as IlKhan, but he only activated a couple after being pressured into it and then knowingly put enemies together in the same corridors to prevent them from properly cooperating.

In short he did what he could to make the invasion fail and prepared for its failure. The reason why he didn't do absolutely nothing is that he was smart enough to know that if he had done absolutely nothing then he would be replaced.
 
In the end he did permanent damage to the position of IlKhan and he abused the positions of Khan and IlKhan to harm the Clans as a whole. That is what makes him a traitor.

Some might say that the Crusaders that initiatialized the 'minimal force' invasion were traitors, but they actually believed that the Clans would win, which makes it foolishness.

In the long term Ulric's actions (which I am not sure that he could have predicted) didn't actually save anybody but ended up promoted maximum conflict.

Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: Arkansas Warrior on 26 July 2014, 13:19:58
When the Crusaders forcibly elected Ulric to be ilKhan, they didn't expect that he would sabotage the Clans as a whole like he did. Normal IlKhans promote their own Clans but always try to go for success of the operation. So from their cultural context it makes sense, they thought that they would get a competent IlKhan and that IlKhan would have mostly have to get his glory from the general success of the operation (because the wolf corridor was light on glory oppertunities).
Like how Leo Showers spent the invasion in the Wolf corridor micromanaging them?  Was that promoting his clan?  Like hoe Lincoln Osis didn't give up Khanship of the Jaguars?  How could that possibly have furthered success of the invasion?


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Glory in the Clans is connected with benefiting the Clans. A warrior that earns glory is a strong warrior. That warriors genes will then be added to the next generation, making the Clans stronger. And a normal Wardens still see themselves as part of the Clans and thus will seek glory (and the benefit to the Clans in the end). From a normal Warden perfective it would be best if the Clans 'reformed' the IS with a Warden IlClan at the head.
The big problem was that Ulric isn't an average warden, he was an extremist warden. From a Clan perspective Ulric was quite an out-of-context monster.
Glory in the clans is connected with a lot of things, most of them individualistic, not collective.  For example, being the first clan to terra.  /do you have evidence was an "extremist warden"?  He seems to be a perfectly normal Warden to me.  He certainly wants a Warden IlClan, that much is evident from his leadership of the Wolves before election to Ilkhanship.


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Ulric didn't bend the system, he worked against the system.
I've yet to see any evidence that he worked against the system any more than (or even as much as) other Invasion-era IlKhans.  If anything, he seems to have abided by the system more than Showers or Osis.



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While he was Ilkhan he didn't do the work that he was responsible for. Ulric knew what was needed and how to implement it with force and manipulations (from his experiece with his own Crusaders). But he didn't do it for others and left them without the needed leadership. This way he managed to preserve more troops then the other Clans. At the end of the invasion this would allow him to either win Terra or to turn his troops against the other invading Clans (weakening/stopping any follow up invasions). 
  What did he not do?  He seems to have been doing everything he could to me.  If there's anything he didn't do, it's mostly because the other Khans limited him.

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He could have easily have activated all the other Clans and gave them new invasion corrodors to unbalance the Houses, as was his right as IlKhan, but he only activated a couple after being pressured into it and then knowingly put enemies together in the same corridors to prevent them from properly cooperating.
Had he tried, he'd have been denounced as a coward and stripped of office.  The Clans entire bidding system is based around winning with the least force.  Tripling the size of the invasion force would surely have been sen as cowardice in the extreme.  As for putting rivals together; the clans are driven by competition.  Shouldn't the pairing with a clan you don't like merely drive you to outdo them, thereby promoting faster progress?



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In short he did what he could to make the invasion fail and prepared for its failure. The reason why he didn't do absolutely nothing is that he was smart enough to know that if he had done absolutely nothing then he would be replaced.
 
In the end he did permanent damage to the position of IlKhan and he abused the positions of Khan and IlKhan to harm the Clans as a whole. That is what makes him a traitor.

Some might say that the Crusaders that initiatialized the 'minimal force' invasion were traitors, but they actually believed that the Clans would win, which makes it foolishness.

In the long term Ulric's actions (which I am not sure that he could have predicted) didn't actually save anybody but ended up promoted maximum conflict.
Ulric did more to help the invasion succeed than any other invasion-era IlKhan.  He even negotiated with ComStar for an early trial against Terra, rather than fighting all the way there and showing up with considerably less force.  It isn't his fault that the Khans bid away too much force in the name of glory and decided each one would run their own front instead of allowing the most proven commander to command.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: solmanian on 26 July 2014, 17:00:10
In the long term Ulric's actions (which I am not sure that he could have predicted) didn't actually save anybody but ended up promoted maximum conflict.
Maximum conflict?
The Jihad was Maximum conflict.
In the big picture, Ulric's time, was relatively mild by comparison. Especially after he promoted the "no warships" rule.
Title: Re: Was Ulric a traitor?
Post by: rebs on 27 July 2014, 01:21:35
And excuse my hyperbole regarding Tukayyid being entirely the fault of the Crusader Khans collective decision making by that point in the Clan invasion.  Because Precentor Martial Focht would have words with... someone, I guess, after he had a Demi-Precentor step on me. ;D