Was Ulric a traitor?

[Arkaris]

I'm pretty sure I've read before that the Clans did know of the FRR, and assigned that corridor to the Wolves because defeating an unknown minor power was seen as less glorious that fighting one of the Great Houses.

They did not know about the FRR until after they meet up with Comstar, which was after the corridors had been assigned.

[Maingunnery]

The various clan watches, are the police officers of the clans. And clan laws are only for the civies; for warriors: you can do whatever you want, break any rule, as long as you got the power to beat up anyone that would say otherwise (i.e. ToR/ToG). The Khans are the leader of nations, like presidents and prime ministers; but the ilKhan? He's like the chairman of the UN; he can frown, threaten, but only has power as long as someone listens to him.

The power of an IlKhan is only limited by his/her own political and martial power. A weak IlKhan can be disposed of in no time, a strong IlKhan can last for a long time and force nearly anything with their political and martial power (at some risk of course).

Expecting the ilKhan to be some altruistic idealistic fanatic, that would hurt his own clan to help their enemies "in the name of the greater good", is unrealistic. Simply give me one example of an ilKhan that jeopardized the interests of his own clan, to help other clans.

A false choice.

I think working together is against their culture.

Of course it is, they are designed to ruthlessly compete with each-other. This is where the job of the IlKhan comes in, its their job to force the operation to a successful end. An IlKhan might do some dubious things during an Operation that benefit his Clan, or wreck another Clan, but as long as the Operation succeeds is all fine.

[solmanian]

Of course it is, they are designed to ruthlessly compete with each-other. This is where the job of the IlKhan comes in, its their job to force the operation to a successful end. An IlKhan might do some dubious things during an Operation that benefit his Clan, or wreck another Clan, but as long as the Operation succeeds is all fine.

And here's the kicker. Could Ulric actually force the crusaders to do something they don't want? The whole reason they appointed him as ilKhan, was to marginalize him; they didn't intend for him to lead them, just be trotted as a trophy at the head of their armies...

[rebs]

I don't believe that Ulric viewed the Wardens and Crusaders in terms of good and bad.  More likely he viewed the Crusaders as misguided.  However, there likely were individual Crusaders (and Wardens) that he viewed as bad or evil, such as Leo Showers or Galaxy Commander Cordera Perez.

This is true.  I totally agree. 

But on the other side of the Great Debate coin, the Crusaders often have been shown to feel particularly righteous in just about all of their actions.  Not to say that certain Wardens didn't feel that way when they won political victories over Crusaders, or outbid them to fight an engagement, etc.  Duels between the two sides were probably non-stop in the years running up to the IS invasion.  I bet there was much strutting and boasting after those from both parties.

But to get back on track, the Crusaders regarded Ulric as a traitor, and as a nearly (or in private, fully) dezgra Warden.  Even if Ulric himself simply felt that the Crusaders were misguided, it didn't change a thing for him.

And here's the kicker. Could Ulric actually force the crusaders to do something they don't want? The whole reason they appointed him as ilKhan, was to marginalize him; they didn't intend for him to lead them, just be trotted as a trophy at the head of their armies...

He led them, and they followed.  But it can be hard going to keep up with the pack leader.  They should have broke their bids and brought in Galaxies to equal Clan Wolf's bid.  Unless that would have been worse, and a whole Clan would have witnessed its own beginning of the end right after Tukayyid, quite possibly, if they still did not listen to the ilKhan about preparing for a fairly long-term ugly guerrilla war showdown with the Com Guards. 

Was it manipulation?  Maybe, that implies that Ulric actually had them conditioned.  I think the Crusaders did much of that their selves, and Ulric only facilitated events by playing his roles as good warlord who doesn't directly interfere with anyone's Clan.  A bit of all of this, most likely. 

[Arkansas Warrior]

They did not know about the FRR until after they meet up with Comstar, which was after the corridors had been assigned.

That's not what it says on page 26 of the Wolf Clan Sourcebook.  It says explicitly that Clan Wolf were not allowed to bid on a corridor, but assigned  "the Rasalhague-Federated Commonwealth corridor, the one that seemed to offer the least potential for gaining glory and honor."

[Sid]

 

  Sorry all.  Things got busy for a bit in the real world.

In the text you yourself quoted, Ulric disagrees with you:

"You are telling me you will turn this contest into a Trial of Absorption!"

"No, it is a Trial of Refusal- a refusal to let you destroy the Clans.  If the Wolves perish to save the rest, so be it."
 

[/quote]

Did you even bother to read what you quoted?  He clearly states that it is still a Trial of Refusal NOT a Trial of Absorption.

I'm going to reply both of these as one because it's the same point.

You'll note that Ulric wasn't being literal.  He states it's a 'Trial of Refusal' (and yes it was) but then he explains it's a Trial of Refusal over the Jade Falcons attempting to destroy the Clans (by invading the Inner Sphere).

Which we know is technically false.  It's technically a Trial of Refusal to refute the Grand Council's guilty verdict of Ulric.

Chrichell states it's actually a Trial of Absorption because whomever wins will Absorb the other.

Ulric disagrees and says this is actually over being able to re-invade.  He confirms Chrichell's point, however, by acknowledging that Clan Wolf may very well die in the trial.

In other words:

-  It's a Trial of Refusal over Ulric's guilt or innocence (and whether he remains ilKhan or not)
-  If Ulric loses the ilKhanship, the Jade Falcons will relaunch the Invasion.  So long as Ulric remains ilKhan, the truce will hold.
-  Whichever Clan loses will be Absorbed.

It's a 'de facto' Trial of Absorbtion.  It's a Trial of Refusal, but the outcome is the same.

Piece of advice reread what you write before you post.  You stated that Clan Wolf was absorbed for being guilty of high treason.  Which is completely incorrect.  That wasn't even Chistu's (or even Crichell's) rationale.  Chistu's justification was that Clan Wolf turned the Trial into a defacto Trial of Absorption when they bid everything in the Trial of Refusal.

First, please reread what you write before you post.  You had said if Clan Wolf was guilty of treason it'd be Annihilated in this post

Now then, I'm sorry if I was unclear.  Clan Wolf was Absorbed for being guilty of high treason for the same reason the Nova Cats were 'Annihilated' for fighting with the SLDF in the Great Refusal.  (They were, technically, Abjured.  Many Clans, however, attempted to Annihilate them in an act of frustration).  Like Ulric, so long as the Jade Falcons got what they wanted (a resumed invasion) they had no intention of punishing Clan Wolf to any real degree.

However, if they didn't get their way, then they'd turn their attention to Clan Wolf and use that guilty charge against them, and indeed, that's what happened.  Consider the following facts:

1)  The charges were trump charges to begin with- even in the eyes of the Clans.  We know this because Ulric wasn't executed.  As you pointed out earlier, the standard punishment is execution up to Annihilation (in a fashion) as the defendant's offspring are killed as well.  Ulric, however, was only removed from his position as ilKhan.  The goal was simply to remove him from power so the invasion could be resumed.  Chrichell even talks about Ulric participating in a resumed invasion.  In addition, per my earlier post, should Clan Wolf lose the Refusal War and the invasion resumed, there was no talk of retribution (despite being guilty).

2)  In Bred for War, Natasha explains to Phelan that he is to flee to the Inner Sphere pernamently due to the fact that so long as the Invasion is halted, the Clans will continue to try and destroy Clan Wolf.  This is why Ulric didn't intend to win the Refusal War-  he was convinced that should he win, another Clan would take the Falcons place in attempting to oust him and destroy Clan Wolf. 

3)  Again, despite being guilty of genocide and high treason, Clan Wolf was not targeted for further punishment at the conclusion of the Refusal War.  Like Ulric's removal of the ilKhanship, this appears to have been enough.  Per Ulric and Natasha, had Clan Wolf not been Absorbed, the other Clans would continue to try and destroy them.

4)  Crichell created Jade Wolf specifically to save Vlad and his Wolves from punishment.  Again, this means that had he simply undone the Absorption, Clan Wolf would be destroyed for being guilty of treason.  The fact that this hadn't already happened means that an Absorption was adequate punishment.
 
5)  Finally, the very first thing Vlad had to contend with when he recreated the Clan was Khan Hawker (as I recall) in Malicious Intent stating that there was a guilty verdict of genocide and high treason against his Clan.  This is where Vlad (infamously) stated that his Clan Wolf was a 'new' Clan Wolf, and therefor not guilty of the previous incarnations crimes.

In other words, so long as Clan Wolf was either a part of the Jade Falcons or a part of the 'Jade Wolves' no punishment was sought by the Clans.  As soon as Vlad claimed to be 'once again Clan Wolf', though, the charge of treason was brought up immediately.

When I said Clan Wolf was Absorbed for being guilty of high treason earlier, I didn't mean they were subject of an official Trial of Absorption after being found guilty-  I meant that being Absorbed was sufficient punishment, and the high treason verdict prevented Crichell and Vlad from simply undoing the Absorption.

So by your logic with the Falcons unable to resume the invasion, they are going to further weaken their forces by continuing the conflict against the Wolves which in turn would further delay their ability to resume the invasion and open their IS holdings to Viper predation.

Well, first of all, it was Ulric's logic  ^-^

He and Natasha specifically tell Phelan he is to remain in the Inner Sphere because even if Ulric and Natasha win the Refusal War, they'd be subjected to attacks by other Clans afterwards.

Also, I didn't state the Falcons would continue to fight the Wolves-  I stated that they didn't intend any punishment should they win.  The other Clans though? Yes, they would.  Vlad and Marthe had to ally themselves to attempt and prevent being subjected to Absorptions-  which is why the Falcons invaded the Lyrans while the Wolves struck the Jaguars.  It's also why Vlad came up with the Harvest Trials.

As I pointed out above, the Ice Hellions jumped on Vlad as soon as they thought they could with the charge of treason. 

We know the treason charge would be used against the Wolves because it was attempted.

Sure he could have given orders, but that doesn't mean the Clans had to obey him.  If he had tried to be the Clan equivalent of Focht overseeing all the individual Clan campaigns and giving directions, most of the other Clans would have simply ignored him.  Any attempt to make things easier for the Clans to win, such as forbidding Batchall during the battle, would have resulted in angry protest and possibly even a trial or two.  Not to mention that much of his advice while perfectly sound Wolf strategies/tactics were likely considered either too Wolf or chalcas by the other Clans.

So in other words, you're saying if Ulric actually tried to do his job it wouldn't have mattered... which excuses his not attempting to do his job at all, but actually work against what he was supposed to be doing... how, exactly?

I don't think many would accept the the excuse of "Well I don't think we can win this war, and my soldiers aren't going to listen to me anyway" as justification for intentionally working against your side's goals in a war.

The Sharks were in a completely different situation.  One, their Khans remained in command of their forces through the entire battle.  Two, while they had suffered some heavy losses, they were not in danger of being completely annihilated until the Smoke Jaguars' withdrawal enabled Focht to redeploy troops to cut the Clan off from their supplies.  Three, at that point the Diamond Shark Khans realized that they were in danger of being annihilated and voluntarily chose to withdraw (if they made it back to their DropShips).  As far as Ulric was aware, once the Jaguars withdrew, their ComGuard opponents could have been redeployed against any Clan including Clan Wolf.  Its also clearly stated that the Sixth Jaguar Dragoons viewed his withdrawal order as a Wolf insult rather than

Which doesn't make any sense.

1)  The Sharks took more casualties than the Jaguars and were in greater danger of being destroyed as a Clan, yet Ulric orders the Jaguars to retreat and doesn't even so much as suggest to the Sharks that they're in danger.
2)  If he left the Sharks to deal with the Comguard units because 'for all he knew' they could be redeployed against the other Clans, including Clan Wolf... why didn't he leave the Smoke Jaguars do deal with the Comguard units they were fighting?  Because those very units were redeployed against the other Clans, including Clan Wolf.
3)  It's just a coincidence I'm sure that one of two units Ulric ordered to retreat refused to do so and nearly won Tukayyid for the Clans  :)

So you consider a bodyguard unit of SL-era assault 'Mechs nothing?  Okaay.   ::)

The scenario gives the 122nd Striker Cluster 35 light Omnis (after the ambush) against 13 SL-era assault Mechs and some infantry.  Using zell, Focht and his bodyguards could have held their own.

You are aware that I was suggesting that fight would have gone differently had Ulric not successfully managed to order an entire Galaxy of Jaguars out of the area right?

Lead the Crusaders?  Since when did he ever promise to lead the Crusaders?  He may have been honorbound to lead the Clan Invasion but it was his choice as to how to lead it.  That said the other Khans always had the option of declaring a Trial against him (which they eventually did).

And he was found guilty ;)

Well as you are obviously a Crusader that is clearly your opinion but then to Crusaders Edwina Carns avoiding killing or even wounding Spheroid warriors is treasonous as well.

Is this where I call you a Warden?

How about instead I, again, ask for your sources.  I've given plenty- including sources where both Focht and Phelan (two members of Ulric's circle of closest friends/allies) and were most certainly against the Invasion (unlike the Crusader led Grand Council) stating that he abused his powers and intentionally threw the Invasion?

[Arkansas Warrior]

 

  Sorry all.  Things got busy for a bit in the real world.


I'm going to reply both of these as one because it's the same point.

You'll note that Ulric wasn't being literal.  He states it's a 'Trial of Refusal' (and yes it was) but then he explains it's a Trial of Refusal over the Jade Falcons attempting to destroy the Clans (by invading the Inner Sphere).

Which we know is technically false.  It's technically a Trial of Refusal to refute the Grand Council's guilty verdict of Ulric.

Chrichell states it's actually a Trial of Absorption because whomever wins will Absorb the other.

Ulric disagrees and says this is actually over being able to re-invade.  He confirms Chrichell's point, however, by acknowledging that Clan Wolf may very well die in the trial.

In other words:

-  It's a Trial of Refusal over Ulric's guilt or innocence (and whether he remains ilKhan or not)
-  If Ulric loses the ilKhanship, the Jade Falcons will relaunch the Invasion.  So long as Ulric remains ilKhan, the truce will hold.
-  Whichever Clan loses will be Absorbed.

It's a 'de facto' Trial of Absorbtion.  It's a Trial of Refusal, but the outcome is the same.

On the contrary, its Crichell who wasn't being literal.  One can understand it as a de facto Absorption, but it's nonetheless a Refusal.  The Wolves are refusing the vote.  Yes, he says it will decide whether or not the Falcons renew the invasion (and thereby destroy the clans in a renewed invasion), but Ulric never makes it out to actually be anything but a refusal of the treason vote, in fact Crichell denies (rather feebly) that the Falcons have any plans to renew the invasion when he's called out on it.

[Sid]

On the contrary, its Crichell who wasn't being literal.  One can understand it as a de facto Absorption, but it's nonetheless a Refusal.  The Wolves are refusing the vote.  Yes, he says it will decide whether or not the Falcons renew the invasion (and thereby destroy the clans in a renewed invasion), but Ulric never makes it out to actually be anything but a refusal of the treason vote, in fact Crichell denies (rather feebly) that the Falcons have any plans to renew the invasion when he's called out on it.

It's often stated on this board (including this thread even) that the Falcons had no right to Absorb the Wolves at the end of the war-  that what they did (Chistu Absorbing the Wolves, Chrichell spinning off the Wolves into the Jade Wolves, Vlad recreating the Clan etc. etc.) is all blatantly illegal and doesn't stand up under Clan law because you need 75% vote of the Grand Council before you can Absorb a Clan etc. etc.

My point is that it wasn't illegal because by bidding an entire Clan for the first time in a trial, Ulric effectively turned it into a Trial of Absorption.  A 'de facto' Absorption, as while it is technically one of Refusal... the outcome is an Absorption.

I'm not saying it became an official, de jure, Absorption because it clearly wasn't one (Vlad being able to Refute it is one such obvious reason)- but yes, it was known before the Refusal War began that it had the same outcome.

[Hellraiser]

With Ulric I always felt that participating in an invasion and then hamstringing the success of such an invasion seems like creating a meat grinder.

Considering Ulric was not ilKhan till the 5th & final wave of the invasion, & while in charge of his clan they were winning more than any other clan, I'm not sure how he was hamstringing ANYONE or creating a meat grinder.

Take Tukayyid as an example. The only reason for the trial was to give the Inner Sphere a chance to halt the invasion and prepare better. For what? The only possible endstate you could predict would be a more even, and thus bloodier, war in the future.

How do you figure ?    Taking aside the fact that Tukayyid was NOT Ulric's idea but was instead Focht's.
1.  Tukayyid the location was chosen so that holy Terra not be savaged by actual battle.  Something the clans all agreed to.
2.  The clans were taking more & more losses as the IS wised up to who was invading them after Outreach.  It was in their best interest to skip over all that territory & just have a single fight for Terra.  Had they actually worked together or heck, just not bid themselves down to stupidly low levels they would have won. 

Every single clan that fought can really only blame themselves on why they lost.  Pride, Hubris, & Clan War Doctrine against Waste & use of small forces.  That is what lost them Tukayyid.  They were idiots who failed to realize that it works fine for a short term trial but its useless when the enemy is willing to stage a guerilla war & actually retreat from combat & conduct raids.  Or who is willing to use combined arms & overwhelming force instead of single combat.

[Hellraiser]

I've been re-reading a lot of early clan invasion stuff and as far as I understand the things Ulric did seem so obviously traitorous, I don't know how he got away with it for so long.

Care to give some examples ?

[Hellraiser]

1)  The man had been elected to the post of ilKhan and his role was to lead the invasion and not do his best to undermine it at every opportunity as he did.  His position was supposed to be one of impartiality and he was to act as the Khan of Khans.  Instead, he intentionally and knowingly harmed the other Clans either by (for example) putting enemies together in the same corridors, or manipulating them into making mistakes to suffer losses.   

A.  They were Jaguars.  THEY DIDNT HAVE ANY ALLIES.   (Ditto the Falcons)  It didn't matter who they got paired with they pretty much hated everyone.  Heck, even the Falcons & Jags didn't like each other, they were just both rabid crusaders.
B.  If intentionally working against another clan when you are ilKhan is traitorous then by that rational, Showers & most every other ilKhan in history are also traitors.

2) and Ulric continued to act against the Grand Council's decision even after he had been proven wrong under the law.

How exactly did he act against the Grand Council's decision?
He didn't stop the invasion when elected.

Ulric undermined Turkayyid to buy him time to further shut the Crusaders down.

/boggle.  He told the other Khan's how to fight C*.
THEY choose to ignore him because they didn't like him.  Again, Hubris.

from manipulating Vlad into coming up with the charges with Marialle Radick (Ulric locked down Conal's Bloodname, taunted Vlad over being unable to attain it, and ensured Vlad would have to remove Ulric to obtain a Bloodname),

/boggle.  Where are you getting this from?

[solmanian]

Every single clan that fought can really only blame themselves on why they lost.  Pride, Hubris, & Clan War Doctrine against Waste & use of small forces.  That is what lost them Tukayyid.  They were idiots who failed to realize that it works fine for a short term trial but its useless when the enemy is willing to stage a guerilla war & actually retreat from combat & conduct raids.  Or who is willing to use combined arms & overwhelming force instead of single combat.

I don't think that their idiocy is even in question. The question is whether Ulric could/should have stopped them from being idiots... With some fanatics claiming Ulric used his mind-control powers to make them stupid, or something.

[Hellraiser]

This can't be proven. It's not a forgone conclusion that a crusader ilKhan would saddle the Wolves with with another Warden or Crusader Clan.   

Why would they have a need to?
They got another clan to help them because they were not able to keep up with the Wolves.
Giving the Wolves a 2nd Clan would have been like saying.  "Here, we really have given up all hope of beating you to Terra so just hand over Garrison of these worlds & free up some more troops to get to Terra by next week.

Ulric had everything to do with Tukayyid though.

Pretty sure Focht has claim to that.

[Hellraiser]

The question is whether Ulric could/should have stopped them from being idiots... With some fanatics claiming Ulric used his mind-control powers to make them stupid, or something.

I suppose he could have had the various idiot clans shot & replaced with better successors......... oh wait.

The ilKhan serves as an arbiter between Clans
The ilKhan enjoys wide-ranging but not absolute power, as he answers to the Grand Council.
The ilKhan may not interfere with matters that are internal to a specific Clan.

[Hellraiser]

My point is that it wasn't illegal because by bidding an entire Clan for the first time in a trial, Ulric effectively turned it into a Trial of Absorption.  A 'de facto' Absorption, as while it is technically one of Refusal... the outcome is an Absorption.

I'm not saying it became an official, de jure, Absorption because it clearly wasn't one (Vlad being able to Refute it is one such obvious reason)- but yes, it was known before the Refusal War began that it had the same outcome.

I can agree with this.  Its basically how a Trial of Absorption turns into a Trial of Annihilation because the Absorbee bids every last warrior to fight against the Absorption.

That said, the issue I have & will always have with the Falcons absorbing the Wolves is that as much as Ulric claimed that he "bid all that he had" towards defeating the Falcons, he actually didn't use much at all.

Basically 5 Galaxies participated in the trail.  Not 9-12 like they had, but only 5.
So even with that much destruction, the Wolves still had a huge force that the Falcons hadn't squared off with.

This gets glossed over a lot with all the unit shuffling that went on between Clan Wolf, Objective Raids, Falcon v Wolf, Crusader/Warden FM's.  But end result was no Falcon unit ever entered Wolf territory or engaged some 4-7 other galaxies of Wolf troops.  Let alone the 3 Galaxies Phelan had with him.

Now I get that the trial, in theory, was over the minute Ulric was dead, but since the Falcons cheated to accomplish that little act, well, there is a reason Vlad was able to blackmail those Khan's after all  ^-^  Had word gotten out he Turkies would have been lunch meat for several other clans.

[rebs]

I don't think that their idiocy is even in question. The question is whether Ulric could/should have stopped them from being idiots... With some fanatics claiming Ulric used his mind-control powers to make them stupid, or something.

Ulric had to play it hands off.  The Crusaders were not going to allow Ulric to dictate their strategy or tactics, period.  They insisted upon their own path to destruction. 

He could have played a Leo Showers on the Jaguars and lived with them and rode their new Khan's tail night and day, but that type of churlish tyranny was not his style. 

[solmanian]

Especially since Leo showers was trying to hinder the wolves, not give helpful guidance...

[Sid]

How do you figure ?    Taking aside the fact that Tukayyid was NOT Ulric's idea but was instead Focht's.
1.  Tukayyid the location was chosen so that holy Terra not be savaged by actual battle.  Something the clans all agreed to.
2.  The clans were taking more & more losses as the IS wised up to who was invading them after Outreach.  It was in their best interest to skip over all that territory & just have a single fight for Terra.  Had they actually worked together or heck, just not bid themselves down to stupidly low levels they would have won. 

1)  Read the Blood of Kerensky trilogy.  Once Ulric becomes ilKhan, he teaches Focht about the inner workings of the Clans.  Focht (and Phelan) both comment throughout the trilogy how they feel that Ulric is constantly 'testing' them.  In other words, Ulric used Focht to set up Tukayyid.

Pretty sure Focht has claim to that.

Again, it's in the trilogy.  Here:

Lost Destiny
Chapter 42:

Focht smiled wryly and shook his head.  "How strange it is that you call me victor when, in fact, all that has happened here was your doing?  You knew exactly what would happen, when and probably where.  The Clans lost because you wanted them to lose."

The ilKhan stiffened, then clasped his hands at the small of his back.  He slowly began to pace, moving to avoid the fallen hulk of a Mad Cat.  "There are two errors in what you have said.  The first is that I would be guilty of treason had I done what you accuse, and treason is punishable by death.  As I do not desire death, I would not do that."

[Ulric goes on to suggest it was Focht drawing out the Trial, and then rambles about how the other Clans are stupid]

"Yet I note, ilKhan, that the Smoke Jaguars and the Wolves are political enemies.  I know well there is no love lost between the two Clans, and I cannot but wonder if you did not force a Smoke Jaguar Khan to woefully underbid by challenging him to do so."

Ulric's blue eyes glittered like chips of ice.  "That is a question that cannot be answered, as both Smoke Jaguar Khans died in the Dinju Mountains."
 

And then there's my previous quote in this thread, from Warriors of Kerensky where Phelan states:

Warriors of Kerensky
Under the ilKhan section

"However, increasing misuse of the position's authority led the clans to virtually abandon it after the impeachment of ilKhan Tobias Katib.  Even Ulric Kerensky abused the post, as his actions at Tukayyid were calculated to further the Warden agenda."

A.  They were Jaguars.  THEY DIDNT HAVE ANY ALLIES.   (Ditto the Falcons)  It didn't matter who they got paired with they pretty much hated everyone.  Heck, even the Falcons & Jags didn't like each other, they were just both rabid crusaders.
B.  If intentionally working against another clan when you are ilKhan is traitorous then by that rational, Showers & most every other ilKhan in history are also traitors.

Back up.  It was originally argued in this thread that Ulric didn't fight the invasion- that he 'did his job'.  An example that was given was that he activated the reserved Clans... until I pointed out that:
1) He only did it because the other Khans pressured him into it and,
2) So he could slow down the Invasion.

And now it's 'Oh, well, intentionally working against the other Clans isn't wrong'.  The original point that was made was that Ulric activated the other Clans to help.  He didn't.  He did it to impede the invasion.

And yes, he's supposed to help all the Clans- not just Clan Wolf.  I.e, he wasn't doing the job.  As for other ilKhans abusing the office?  Yes.  That's why the ilKhan position was retired until the invasion as Phelan notes in the quote above.

Was it treason?  That's arguable.  But according to the exchange between Ulric and Focht above- by Ulric's own admission- trying to prevent the Clans from winning in general is treason, yes.

How exactly did he act against the Grand Council's decision?
He didn't stop the invasion when elected.

When the Grand Council decided to invade, Ulric called for a Trial of Refusal.  If he won, the invasion would have been proven morally wrong and the whole thing would never have happened.  At all.  A Trial of Refusal is the be all and end all- it's final.

Ulric (and Clan Wolf) lost the Trial of Refusal.  That means that, under Clan law, Ulric (and Clan Wolf) were wrong.  The Invasion is morally just, and necessary.  Ulric was honour bound to abide by the Trial of Refusal-  just like the Clans couldn't invade again after the Great Refusal, so Ulric must invade... and yet we have Phelan and Natasha telling Ragnar when he's first captured that they're doing everything they can to slow down and halt the invasion.

Ulric had a recourse and a chance to prevent the Invasion.  He failed. 

And then he kept trying to halt it anyway-  eventually resorting to killing off Clan Wolf.

/boggle.  He told the other Khan's how to fight C*.
THEY choose to ignore him because they didn't like him.  Again, Hubris.

Nope.  Focht realizes that Ulric just let them 'twist in the wind'.

That's on top of the whole implied forcing them to underbid thing...

/boggle.  Where are you getting this from?

Ulric engineered everything.  Focht isn't exaggerating when he says Ulric likely knew how everything would play out on Tukayyid.  He's literally a Magnificent Bastard.  He fits the trope to a T

Phelan's rise through the ranks and becoming the saKhan of Clan Wolf was Ulric's doing.  So too was making Natasha kerensky the kaKhan.  He used Focht to set up Tukayyid and get a fifteen year truce to the Invasion.  He engineered the Refusal War.

...and in Bred for War Ulric reveals to Vlad his plan to kill off the Wolf Crusaders against the Falcons.  He explains that he got the idea from the Red Corsair affair.

Which, incidentally, was just before he mercilessly crushed Vlad's hope at a Bloodname-  unless Vlad could somehow unseat Ulric.

As I said, it's never said outright... I don't have a quote but the timeline works like this:

-Red Corsair affair happens.  Ulric gets the idea for the Refusal War.
-Ulric locks down Conal's Bloodname, and mercilessly taunts Vlad over it.
-Vlad becomes determined to remove Ulric from the ilKhanship so he can try and get Conal's Bloodname.  He comes up with the treason charges .
-Ulric takes the charges from Clan Wolf Council (where he can easily beat them) to the Grand Council (where he can't)
-Ulric is found guilty (surprise!) and calls a simple Trial of Refusal.  Natasha, having previously planned with Ulric,  throws Clan Wolf to his defense.
-Ulric bids the entire Clan Wolf against the Falcons, much to the Falcons' horror
-Ulric orders Phelan on a one way trip wtih 33% of the Clan's equipment , the 'best' Wardens, a full copy of the genetic legacies and...orders Vlad to gather the survivors after Wotan and join Phelan in exile.
-Ulric gleefully kills off as many Wolves and Falcons as he can, as he finally got that Refusal War he wanted.

Considering how well everything was planned out, and that the planning goes back to before he uncharacteristically went after Vlad (who he didn't care about up until that point...), and that event is the very thing that brought up the charges Ulric needed...

I think he did it, knowing full well what Vlad find a way to get him removed.

[solmanian]

Lost Destiny
Chapter 42:
-snip-

OK, all I see here is Ulric vehemently denies what you claim. If, according to you Focht was his puppet/underling/co-conspirator, why would he deny? Is Focht going to oust to the clans? It's more likely that Focht would consider himself and the IS indebted to him.
What Ulric says, is what we're been saying all along: Ulric followed the clans laws to the letter; all he did was allow stupid clanners to hang themselves, which is a time honored tradition in the clans and goes with their Darwinian outlook. If a warrior is an idiot, or worse, blindly follows an idiot, than he deserves to die.

Also, Focht attributing Urlic with god-like omniscience, probably due to being glamoured by his personality.

Warriors of Kerensky
Under the ilKhan section
-snip-
And yes, he's supposed to help all the Clans- not just Clan Wolf.  I.e, he wasn't doing the job.  As for other ilKhans abusing the office?  Yes.

You can't convict him for not being any worse than his predecessors. Especially since the only ilKhans in his lifetime was Leo Showers; Ulric was merely following his example. I don't see anyone making threads about "Was Leo Showers a traitor?" because he actively hindered the wolves. Considering that wolves were the most effective force in the invasion, and were close to delivering Terra to the clans, isn't putting sticks in their invasion wheels just as treasonous if not more?

The fact that most/all ilKhans abused the post, is the entire point. Ulric shouldn't be judged by different standards because he's a warden. If all ilKhans are "treasonous" by your standards, than your standards are wrong, as they have been proven to be untenable. The alternative is claiming that all the supreme leaders of the clans were traitors.

Back up.  It was originally argued in this thread that Ulric didn't fight the invasion- that he 'did his job'.  An example that was given was that he activated the reserved Clans... until I pointed out that:
1) He only did it because the other Khans pressured him into it and,
2) So he could slow down the Invasion.

Either he did against his will to help the invasion, or he did purposely to sabotage the invasion. Can't have it both ways.

Ulric (and Clan Wolf) lost the Trial of Refusal.  That means that, under Clan law, Ulric (and Clan Wolf) were wrong.  The Invasion is morally just, and necessary.  Ulric was honour bound to abide by the Trial of Refusal-  just like the Clans couldn't invade again after the Great Refusal, so Ulric must invade... and yet we have Phelan and Natasha telling Ragnar when he's first captured that they're doing everything they can to slow down and halt the invasion

Everything THEY can? All the invasion corridors were slowed and halted by the incompetence and hubris of the clans. All the invasion corridors except for the wolf corridor, as they were steamrolling the FRR, and piledriving straight to Terra.

I guess the Wolves ere so incompetent, they couldn't even slow their own invasion, huh? 8)

And then he kept trying to halt it anyway-  eventually resorting to killing off Clan Wolf.

"Looks at Wolf Empire". Oh well, I guess they got better...

[Arkansas Warrior]

And then there's my previous quote in this thread, from Warriors of Kerensky where Phelan states:

Warriors of Kerensky[/size]Under the ilKhan section"However, increasing misuse of the position's authority led the clans to virtually abandon it after the impeachment of ilKhan Tobias Katib.  Even Ulric Kerensky abused the post, as his actions at Tukayyid were calculated to further the Warden agenda."

"further[ing] the Warden agenda" does not equal "betraying the Clans."  Warden and Crusader are political movements within the clans.  If he was indeed abusing his position to advance the Warden cause (and I have no reason to doubt that he was), that's still furthering the clan agenda.  Not staying neutral in inter-clan politics is not the same as betraying the clans.  If it was, Nicholas Kerensky was a traitor to the clans.

[Archangel]

Moderators I believe this thread can be shut down as it is going nowhere fast.

[blackjack]

I fail to see Ulric's actions as traitorous. I have always felt that the crusader clans were the true traitors to Kerensky's vision. He didn't say lets build up a giant army & destroy the inner sphere. End of argument the crusaders were & are the traitors.

[rebs]

Moderators I believe this thread can be shut down as it is going nowhere fast.

This is the thread that would not die
It may yet cost users their eyes

Some people started typing it not knowing what they'd done
But we keep harping on it due to our strange sense of fun...   ;)

[Seras]

Ulric was a traitor for one simple reason. The IS is huge and clan warriors are few.

He feared that invading the IS would destroy the clans in the long run:

" the clans would run over the IS and then die a slow unglorious death"

So he sabotaged the invasion at every opertunity that presented itself to save the clans as he knew them.

From a clan persective that is treasonous, however looking at the state of the clans in 3145 I feel a strong need to say: "Ulric was right ".


 

[Maingunnery]

So he sabotaged the invasion at every opertunity that presented itself to save the clans as he knew them.

So like shooting somebody in the head to save them...... not buying it

[Seras]

Hey I NEVER said it was a good plan  ;)

Stackpole also invented the Phantommech ability which then was removed as fast as possible from the backround  ;)

[Maingunnery]

Hey I NEVER said it was a good plan  ;)

He had a plan and that plan was to sacrifice the Clans for his convictions. He was quite successful.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Ulric was a traitor for one simple reason. The IS is huge and clan warriors are few.

He feared that invading the IS would destroy the clans in the long run:

" the clans would run over the IS and then die a slow unglorious death"

So he sabotaged the invasion at every opertunity that presented itself to save the clans as he knew them.

From a clan persective that is treasonous, however looking at the state of the clans in 3145 I feel a strong need to say: "Ulric was right ".

There's two major problems here:
1) That's not what Ulric did.
2) Even if it was, it isn't traitorous.

1) As has been stated many times in this thread, Ulric was leading the most successful clan in the invasion, the clan that progressed faster and captured more worlds than any other.  At Tukayyid, he gave good advice the other clans that they ignored.  That isn't sabotaging the invasion.  If anything, he was beating the Crusaders at their own game.

2)  The invasion was what the Crusaders wanted.  The Wardens wanted to protect the IS from external threats (like, say, the Crusaders).  If he was trying to sabotage the invasion, he was actually furthering the aims of his group, and only thwarting those of the opposing group.  That isn't treason from a clan perspective.  That might be treason from a Crusader perspective.  Except that Ulric can't be a traitorous Crusader, because he's a Warden.  It would be like accusing Woodrow Wilson of being a traitor to the Allies because he disagreed with the PM of England about the provisions of the Versailles treaty.

[Sid]

There's two major problems here:
1) That's not what Ulric did.
2) Even if it was, it isn't traitorous.

1) As has been stated many times in this thread, Ulric was leading the most successful clan in the invasion, the clan that progressed faster and captured more worlds than any other.  At Tukayyid, he gave good advice the other clans that they ignored.  That isn't sabotaging the invasion.  If anything, he was beating the Crusaders at their own game.

2)  The invasion was what the Crusaders wanted.  The Wardens wanted to protect the IS from external threats (like, say, the Crusaders).  If he was trying to sabotage the invasion, he was actually furthering the aims of his group, and only thwarting those of the opposing group.  That isn't treason from a clan perspective.  That might be treason from a Crusader perspective.  Except that Ulric can't be a traitorous Crusader, because he's a Warden.  It would be like accusing Woodrow Wilson of being a traitor to the Allies because he disagreed with the PM of England about the provisions of the Versailles treaty.

As I've stated before:

1) As I and others have pointed out, it's stated that Clan Wolf's success was a 'backup plan' should they fail to stop the Invasion.  In addition, I have yet to see anyone provide sources that Ulric provided actual 'good advice'.  Instead:
  -  We have Phelan stating that Ulric abused his authority to 'further the Warden agenda'
  -  Focht and Ulric's discussion that strongly implies that Ulric forced other Clans to *under*bid on Tukayyid, as well as 'let them twist in the wind'

2) Ulric fought a Trial of Refusal prior to the Invasion.  He lost.  That was his lawful attempt to prevent the Invasion.  When the Crusaders lost the Great Refusal, that ended Operation Revival-  just like his Trial of Refusal should have ended his attempts to stop the Invasion.  As for sabotage not being treason- it is.  He outright told Focht it is.

Your two points conflict.  You state in your first point that Ulric did not, in fact, attempt to sabotage the Invasion (E.g, he gave 'good advice' to help and conquered plenty of worlds) and then state in the second that attempting to sabotage the Invasion is just being a good Warden.

So which is it?  Did he attempt to sabotage the Invasion or not?   Was he a traitor to the Wardens and help the Crusaders, or was he a 'good Warden' and (in his own words to Focht) commit treason outright?

[Arkansas Warrior]

I'm saying that he didn't, and even if he had been working to undermine the Crusader agenda, it wouldn't have constituted treason.