Author Topic: Which Vehicle Comes Closest To Being As Effective As a "mech" of same weight?  (Read 17822 times)

Dayton3

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I know an aerospace fighter can be as much (actually more) effective in combat than a 'mech in aerial or space combat.

Likewise a submarine can obviously be more effective in combat than a "mech in underwater combat.

But what vehicle is the closest to a 'mech of its own weight in an area where 'mechs are considered to excel which of course is ground combat?

One reason I asked is it seems that one of the purposes of the Hover/Jump tank Kanga was to replicate a 'mechs mobility in an internal combustion engine vehicle so my inquiring flows from there.

Frogfoot

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The Hell's Horses' Epona omni-hovertank is nice in that 50ton slot as a striker and BA taxi. It's less durable than most 50 ton mechs but also faster.

Then there are various dedicated Arrow-IV platforms, from the Chaparral to the Huitzilopoctli, that are designed to just hang back in cover and sling artillery missiles. On the tabletop I think these are generally more cost effective than mechs of similar weight because you rarely need them to move or fight. In-universe on the other hand, I can see the strategic value in having fast heavy artillery like a Naga omnimech that can keep pace with your mech formations, whereas a slow-ass Huitzilopoctli isn't going to manage that.

Fast choppers and light hovers in general are very cost-effective for recon.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Sucession Wars/introtech has some hovers that compare very favorably to light mechs. The Pegasus is my favorite.

Of course, hovers begin to lose their lustre when pulse lasers, targeting computers, and LB-X autocannons come into the game.

JenniferinaMAD

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The Myrmidon tank sits just below a vindicator in weight and packs the same PPC and very similar amounts of armour. Secondary weapon about matches that of the Vindi, too (SRM6 vs LRM5 + ML + SL). The big difference is 5/8 speed vs 4/6/4, meaning that the Myrmidon will have the edge in open terrain while the Vindicator has it in rough, broken and wooded terrain; exactly where a mech should be superior.

Caedis Animus

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The SRM Carrier.

Arkansas Warrior

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The Awesome-8Q and Schreck are almost identical in their capabilities.  The Awesome has better armor and no terrain restrictions, the Schreck can fire all its guns every turn, etc., but they're pretty close.
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Death by Lasers

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The 60 ton Manticore has almost the same BV as a 60 ton Rifleman and has a higher PV than the Rifleman in Alpha Strike.
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Firesprocket

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But what vehicle is the closest to a 'mech of its own weight in an area where 'mechs are considered to excel which of course is ground combat?
One reason I asked is it seems that one of the purposes of the Hover/Jump tank Kanga was to replicate a 'mechs mobility in an internal combustion engine vehicle so my inquiring flows from there.

It depends on what you consider 'an equal'.  Vehicles and mechs only compare movement modes favorably in open terrain.  Otherwise a vehicle generally pays more to go up and down elevations and is limited in the amount of elevation or terrain it can enter.  With respect to firepower, tanks that feature a non energy weapon platform will often equal or exceed their mech counterparts due to the fact they don't have to track heat and weapon space is treated entirely differently on the two types of units.

Tanks can still lose out on that advantage due to the extra engine shielding cost a vehicle may pay for that a mech does not.  The Alacorn Mk VI is a good example of what similar weight mech can do for firepower.  The Alacorn has a turret though which can certainly make it more flexible.  The Padilla and the Schiltron on the other hand are examples of decent tanks that lose out a bit on the mech vs. vehcile/engine shielding issue.  One loses out on more firepower, the other in speed.  Both are decent tanks though for what they do.

As far at the Kanga goes, it is a novelty and not an exceptional design.  The rules for jumping tanks now are completely different from when the tank was put in print.  The armor is poor and the weapon configuration is lackluster.  The ICE engine make it worse.  A fuel cell might make the design better, but the weapon's load out is a generalist with no punch.  As a mech it would only be a hair better.  What needs to be done for it to be effective is a ground up redesign.

Dayton3

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^ Good points all around.

SCC

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The Awesome-8Q and Schreck are almost identical in their capabilities.  The Awesome has better armor and no terrain restrictions, the Schreck can fire all its guns every turn, etc., but they're pretty close.
The Schreck has less armor, sure the per location amount is the same, but the Schreck has fewer locations.

As for vehicles that can really equal 'Mechs, well you can cram a Hunchback or an Atlas into a same weight tracked vehicle losing only a half ton of armor. And don't get me started on the bugs.

Jellico

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Tanks fail in the MBT role. The motive and crit rules mean that you can't shove a tank down someone's throat the same way that you can with a Mech.

So a Shrek fails next to an Awesome. Conversely fire support, back stabbing, or scouting, where getting shot is not part of the job description are roles vehicles can be superior in.

Sartris

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or point defense. having to assault a position anchored by a lance of Alacorns is gross. Hopefully, you have access to artillery or get ready to bleed.

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Hellraiser

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But what vehicle is the closest to a 'mech of its own weight in an area where 'mechs are considered to excel which of course is ground combat? 


Here are a few I can come up with.

Behemoth:   (20 LRMs,  2x AC10's,  20 SRMs?  4 MGs? all w/ Alphastrike ability)   You can try but its going to be hard to beat that really.

Alacorn-VI:  (3 Gauss moving 3/5, sure a mech will edge it out, only only barely)

LRM/SRM Carrier:  (60 LRM/SRM firing every turn even slow & unarmored, a mech can't do that)

Regulator:   (Gauss Rifle or Arrow-IV on a 9/14 platform at 45 tons........ hard to match, close but unlikely)

Any of the 5-25 ton Hovers/Vtols will be hard pressed to be duplicated by mechs of equal tech level


Stuff like the Myrmidon/Manticore (Skirmishers/MBTs) while well designed is actually NOT where I feel vehicles shine.

Its in Overheating Ballistic/Missile boats & High Speed Strikers.   Basically, Fire Support & Recon.
Those areas are where vehicles can try to meet or even exceed mech performance.


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Arkansas Warrior

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Tanks fail in the MBT role. The motive and crit rules mean that you can't shove a tank down someone's throat the same way that you can with a Mech.

So a Shrek fails next to an Awesome. Conversely fire support, back stabbing, or scouting, where getting shot is not part of the job description are roles vehicles can be superior in.
Huh?  "Fire support" is exactly what I'd call an Awesome.  I don't think of it as an MBT at all.
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Hellraiser

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Huh?  "Fire support" is exactly what I'd call an Awesome.  I don't think of it as an MBT at all.

Hmmmm..... 15 Tons of Armor & pure Zombie nature & max range of 18 & no Indirect ability.............

I'd have to go with Direct Assault,  Not Close Assault,  but not Fire Support either,  more medium range slugger than anything.

The Shrek in turn fails when it tries to duplicate that by having 1/2 the armor & a 1/3rd the internal.

If it dropped 2 PPC's for LRM20's ammo & armor, like the Puma, I'd say it was a full on FS design & better than a similarly armed Shogun at that point.
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Demon55

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A lot of the hover tanks can compete with some lights and some mediums and cost less, but need a bigger crew and most do not have fusion engines. 

The Myrmidon could probably compete with a Vindicator.  The Drillson or Epona can rival a lot of medium omni/mechs. 

The Pegasus, Plainsman, Saladin, Saracen, Scimitar, can compete with a lot of light mechs. 

The Manticore is a good heavy tank. 

These are just some off of the top of my head.

Jellico

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I use Clantech mostly. Anything under 20 hexes is medoum range. The extra range of the weapons and speed of the Mechs mean that you space out more and use that defense in depth.

That said I have run Riflemen 3Ns as fire support in era appropriate games so I know what you mean.

Actually I strongly maintain Mars are fire support tanks rather than assaults largely because they can't afford to be hit.

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IMHO, the Rommel/Patton compares favorably with the Hunchback.
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Dayton3

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It seems to me that it is easier to design a tank for a specialist role like fire support while most 'mech designs of medium and above weight class tend toward "generalist" design philosophy.    i.e  all around armor protection,  weapons of different overlapping ranges, et cetera.

Kovax

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There are numerous intro-tech hovers that compare favorably against 'Mechs in open, swampy, or river-intensive terrain.  Throw in enough trees and hills, and the 'Mechs are clearly superior.  Add in advanced tech and specialty ammo, and the hovers are toast.

In 3025 with Regular personnel, "speed = armor".  With advanced tech and specialty ammo (precision and cluster), plus more of a tendency to field personnel with lower base to-hit numbers (such as Clanners), speed isn't as effective at avoiding hits, and motive crits will most likely disable the vehicle long before the armor runs out, so even armor no longer equals armor.

snewsom2997

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Defensively
Said it before Ill say it again, Gurteltier. Rommel's and Patton's ain't too bad either, won't stand up against assault mechs but unoptimized Heavies, Most Medium and Lights.

Ofensively
I agree that the Epona is another candidate, as well as the Pegasus Hovertank.

Firesprocket

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It seems to me that it is easier to design a tank for a specialist role like fire support while most 'mech designs of medium and above weight class tend toward "generalist" design philosophy.    i.e  all around armor protection,  weapons of different overlapping ranges, et cetera.
The reason tanks are a bit better in a specialist whole stems also to the fact they are pigeon holed into it.  Tanks have to pay nothing for additional heat cost due to ammo weapons, but will pay through the nose for energy boats because they have no access to double heat sinks.

Defensively
Said it before Ill say it again, Gurteltier. Rommel's and Patton's ain't too bad either, won't stand up against assault mechs but unoptimized Heavies, Most Medium and Lights.
That can be said of any tank.  Neither the Rommel or the Patton are going to overpower any mech of similar weight, but you have respect a Gauss or a Ultra-10 for what they can do.  If you measure up their BV to comparable value to mechs in the same range (1100-1200 BV) they stack up favorably.  They both have a modest amount of armor, which when incapacitated, will allow them to fight on.

The Gurteltier on the other hand is a beast.  Sure it doesn't have as much firepower as an assault mech of the same weight.  What it does have though is the ability to stand its ground and delivery accurate fire either because of the TC and/or the C3 network it will be a part of.  Its loss in firepower is made up for in armor protection per location.  While you can disable the thing with motive hits it really doesn't matter.  It is an armored brick on pretty much any side you decide to shoot it from.

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Offensively
I agree that the Epona is another candidate, as well as the Pegasus Hovertank.
I don't know that I would use the Pegasus for anything other than for scouting or a tank killer. It is a bit light to do much anything else.  I am also probably the minority, but the Epona hasn't aged well and I certainly wouldn't use it often in an offensive capacity except for the A as fire support.  It has poor amour for a 50 ton tank, even a hover, which relies on speed to not be hit.  Firepower is still decent for a hover.  For offense I would rather use a Joust or to a lesser extent, the Enyo.  Both are slower compared to the Epona, but put up respectable speed, firepower, and armor to survive.  The Epona does only 2 of those 3 things.  The notable exception to this would be what Kovax mentioned.

There are numerous intro-tech hovers that compare favorably against 'Mechs in open, swampy, or river-intensive terrain.  Throw in enough trees and hills, and the 'Mechs are clearly superior.  Add in advanced tech and specialty ammo, and the hovers are toast.
Unless the fight goes below water, a hover is going to be better on water than a mech.  At least until it gets hit.  Mechs, however outside of UMUs, generally get bogged down and deserve to die if they are foolish enough to try and fight in water against a hover.  Conversely any obstacle is going to make it worse for a vehicle to maneuver, especially hills.  It doesn't take much to disable a tank assuming you hit it.  LB-X, massed missiles, and inferno/TC.  All of them spell trouble for tanks and especially hover tanks which are more likely to take a motive, if not, incapacitating hit.


 

SCC

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Unless the fight goes below water, a hover is going to be better on water than a mech.  At least until it gets hit.  Mechs, however outside of UMUs, generally get bogged down and deserve to die if they are foolish enough to try and fight in water against a hover.  Conversely any obstacle is going to make it worse for a vehicle to maneuver, especially hills.  It doesn't take much to disable a tank assuming you hit it.  LB-X, massed missiles, and inferno/TC.  All of them spell trouble for tanks and especially hover tanks which are more likely to take a motive, if not, incapacitating hit.
I can't be sure, but I suspect that due to the way the rules work a hover over water can fire torpedoes but can't be hit by them.

doulos05

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I love the Saladin, they're crazy scary to fight and fit well in my light recon lance for my AtB campaign. It gives my lights the ability to punch way above their weight class just in case they draw a bad match-up.
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

Kovax

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The Saladin works great as a threat in being, but once you commit it to the attack, the lack of a turret or decent side armor means that it's very likely to be outflanked and destroyed.  The truly insane move on the part of the designers was to put more than a ton of ammo capacity on something that's not likely to survive long enough to use up the first ton.  It's got to get fairly close to the enemy to be effective, and that puts it in range of SRMs and Medium Lasers, which have a high probability of immobilizing the Saladin, if not killing it outright.  Then again, if it hits something with that big gun, it's going to hurt.....a lot.

Dayton3

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Sometimes (perhaps even fairly often) 'mechs have no choice but to fight in or on water for various reasons.

Like the Wolf Dragoons attack on Hesperus where the Dragoons got stuck seemingly forever trying to cross a river to get at the 'mech factories.    The Steiner defenders kept sending hovercraft across the water and basically "depth charging" the Dragoon 'mechs as they walked on the floor of the river.

One of the Dragoons regimental commanders was killed in those attacks.   This one geographical feature did more to halt the Dragoon advance than any other factor.

doulos05

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The Saladin works great as a threat in being, but once you commit it to the attack, the lack of a turret or decent side armor means that it's very likely to be outflanked and destroyed.  The truly insane move on the part of the designers was to put more than a ton of ammo capacity on something that's not likely to survive long enough to use up the first ton.  It's got to get fairly close to the enemy to be effective, and that puts it in range of SRMs and Medium Lasers, which have a high probability of immobilizing the Saladin, if not killing it outright.  Then again, if it hits something with that big gun, it's going to hurt.....a lot.

Yeah, I've had to replace it 3 times. But it's fought in a fair number of battles without being touched. It's all about the timing of committing it to the attack. I have no problem with it sailing around the map creating a 9 hex "no-go cone" for 2/3rds of the battle. Because when it hits (and boy does it ever, I keep an elite gunner in there), it has a habit of hitting the legs. Bad news for my opponents, who have spent most of the game being kicked...

But some of this goes to my habit of kicking my opponents. I play mercenaries, the most efficient way to get salvage is to leg the enemy mech. The most reliable way to do that is to kick them. So that's how I build my forces. Probably wouldn't work as well against a human player, but these days I only get to play Princess...
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

Daryk

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*snip*
Because when it hits (and boy does it ever, I keep an elite gunner in there)
*snip*
And did you name him Slick Des Grieux? 8)

Col Toda

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SHILTRON PRIME VS O-BAKEMONO . Both have 2 Arrow IV launchers and medium lasers but the vehicle has 2 tons more ammo and a C3 Master computer. The downside is the vehiclr is wheeled with all the problems that comes with that.

doulos05

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And did you name him Slick Des Grieux? 8)
Somehow I missed Hammer's Slammers in my childhood. But thanks to the magic of Audible, I'll be correcting that oversight forthwith...
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.