Ultra-Light Jump Jets

[Retry]

Ultra-Light Jump Jets

UL-JJs are another tier of jump jets designed for the lightest of Battlemechs in order to save weight, which is already heavily limited by the small size of the platforms.  UL-JJs weigh .25 tons and take up 1 crit per Jump Jet and can be fit on Battlemechs that weigh 25 tons or less.

As such, the weight of jump jets is effectively the following
0-25 ton Mech: .25 ton JJs
30-55 ton Mech: .5 ton JJs
60-85 ton Mech: 1.0 ton JJs
90-100 ton Mech: 2.0 ton JJs

(This was conceived when I noticed that the lightest canon mechs that did have JJs (most notably Stingers and Wasps) tended to be rather underwhelming, as a lot of weight was lost to the JJs when they needed all that they could get.  With the new JJs, the Stinger/Wasp gets a free 1.5 tons they could use for something like extra armor and maybe an extra token gun.  Also, Ultra-Lights + Jump Jets could become at least somewhat practical.)

[Daryk]

Are they at least 2 crits to make up for the weight savings?  ???

[Retry]

Are they at least 2 crits to make up for the weight savings?  ???

Just one.  It's basically an addition to Tech Manual's Jump Jet Table (pg.51) to include another "weight class" category for Jump Jets.  Something Mongoose-sized and smaller can benefit from these light jump jets, but anything Urbanmech-sized and up has to keep the old-fashioned half-ton jets or heavier.

[Daryk]

It's a nice idea, but not very balanced, I think.

[Retry]

Maybe.  Haven't hit into any big problems yet while testing Stingers & Wasps modified with the lighter jets.  Then again, those are just Stingers & Wasps, and something more impressive might change things, like a Mercury.

[AlphaMirage]

I think if the jump jets took up more criticals that would be fair, 20-25 tonners still have lots of space on them they just might lose out on Ferro instead.

[RifleMech]

I like the idea of Ultra Light Jump Jets but if they're made for Extra Light Mechs they should only be used on Extra Light Mechs. Those 10-15 tons. I'm not sure about 2 crits or not. Maybe barrow from Prototype Improved Jump Jets? Single crits but more heat and can explode while Production ULJJ are 2 crits and safer?

[Maingunnery]

I like the idea of Ultra Light Jump Jets but if they're made for Extra Light Mechs they should only be used on Extra Light Mechs. Those 10-15 tons. I'm not sure about 2 crits or not. Maybe barrow from Prototype Improved Jump Jets? Single crits but more heat and can explode while Production ULJJ are 2 crits and safer?

I think that is they just remain in the right tonnage range (10-15 tons) it would be balanced enough.

[Talen5000]

Ultra-Light Jump Jets

UL-JJs are another tier of jump jets designed for the lightest of Battlemechs in order to save weight, which is already heavily limited by the small size of the platforms.  UL-JJs weigh .25 tons and take up 1 crit per Jump Jet and can be fit on Battlemechs that weigh 25 tons or less.

As such, the weight of jump jets is effectively the following
0-25 ton Mech: .25 ton JJs
30-55 ton Mech: .5 ton JJs
60-85 ton Mech: 1.0 ton JJs
90-100 ton Mech: 2.0 ton JJs

(This was conceived when I noticed that the lightest canon mechs that did have JJs (most notably Stingers and Wasps) tended to be rather underwhelming, as a lot of weight was lost to the JJs when they needed all that they could get.  With the new JJs, the Stinger/Wasp gets a free 1.5 tons they could use for something like extra armor and maybe an extra token gun.  Also, Ultra-Lights + Jump Jets could become at least somewhat practical.)

A nice idea, and one that makes a certain degree of sense, but balance concerns remain.

I'd suggest:

1: Double the crit size. Fits in with the BT standard that lighter stuff is bulkier.
2: The second crit is a "fuel chamber" rather than an exhaust port. To keep things simple, it means you can jump only when the tank is full and it takes one (or x) turns of not jumping to recharge.
3: The jumps aren't tied to the fusion engine, so they don't cause heat, but the pressurised system does cause damage and a critical chance if they explode.
4: They should become progressively heavier and less efficient as mass increases.

[AngryButler with a KNIFE!]

Reminds me of my Hybrid UMU-JJs.

A nice idea, and one that makes a certain degree of sense, but balance concerns remain.

I'd suggest:

1: Double the crit size. Fits in with the BT standard that lighter stuff is bulkier.
2: The second crit is a "fuel chamber" rather than an exhaust port. To keep things simple, it means you can jump only when the tank is full and it takes one (or x) turns of not jumping to recharge.
3: The jumps aren't tied to the fusion engine, so they don't cause heat, but the pressurised system does cause damage and a critical chance if they explode.
4: They should become progressively heavier and less efficient as mass increases.

What Talen5000 said, at least for #1, #2, and #3. If they were like Gauss rifles or Heavy Lasers in that they have a weakness in needing to build pressurized gases, and suddenly a hole was made in the pressure tank...)
That'd make it far more reasonable for larger 'Mechs NOT to use ultra-light jump jets due to potentially being crippled far worse - taking out everything in a side torso isn't too bad on a lightly armed Light, but a Heavy or Assault 'Mech, packing in 3+ weapons in a side torso, and it going BOOM, is an entirely different matter. Although I'd still say that they're tied to the fusion engine, but that they give a very hard initial 'kick' from the pressurized tanks releasing. Additional difficulty to piloting roll for a safe landing?

[Retry]

Reminds me of my Hybrid UMU-JJs.What Talen5000 said, at least for #1, #2, and #3. If they were like Gauss rifles or Heavy Lasers in that they have a weakness in needing to build pressurized gases, and suddenly a hole was made in the pressure tank...)
That'd make it far more reasonable for larger 'Mechs NOT to use ultra-light jump jets due to potentially being crippled far worse - taking out everything in a side torso isn't too bad on a lightly armed Light, but a Heavy or Assault 'Mech, packing in 3+ weapons in a side torso, and it going BOOM, is an entirely different matter. Although I'd still say that they're tied to the fusion engine, but that they give a very hard initial 'kick' from the pressurized tanks releasing. Additional difficulty to piloting roll for a safe landing?

Larger 'Mechs can't use the ultra-light jump jets at all.  They're a "new" tier of jump jets and are limited to 25 tonners and smaller.


I'm not convinced that these cause a big balance issue, but I'll try a few more rounds with the "Super Stingers" soon.

If there is, I'd prefer to solve it by changing the usability range from 0-25t to only ultralights, rather than adding new rules specific to the lightest class of jump jets (2 crits, explosions, tracking fuel).  That's never been my favorite balancing measure for new Battletech equipment.

[Speedbump]

My first instinct was that this would seriously break things once you got past the 3025 era, but having done some messing around with the math it doesn't seem as bad as anticipated.

Under introtech, I guess the biggest concern is the ability to build a better Spider at 25 tons. Not a massive issue as it's only an extra 1.5 tons to play with, but I know I tend to avoid 5/8/5 heavies due to a similarly minor disadvantage so I thought it was worth bringing up. It also makes a 9/14/9 mech semi practical and a 10/15/10 possible, but it's certainly not the end of the world. That's about it for side effects on the game as a whole. (Obviously it makes the Wasp and Stinger better in relation to the Locust and a little less bad in comparison to the Firestarter, but that seems to be your intended goal)

Moving up to star league tech (Endo and XL Engine) it gives minor boost to 10/15/10 mechs when dropping down from 30 to 25 tons. It also makes the 11/17/11 and 12/18/12 horrible jumping bastards a whole lot more practical without having to involve IJJs or partial wings. 13/20/13 and 14/21/14 mechs are possible and a 13/20/13 Tag platform (or later C3 Slave) might even be useful.

3050 era Clan tech just makes the mechs nastier but doesn't really change the equation.

Partial Wings allow a slightly slower 25 ton mech to hit 11/17/13 or 12/18/14 with a little more tonnage than the 20 tonners 13/20/13 and 14/21/14. But they also allow the already allowed 9/14/11 30 tonner to enter the horrible jumping bastard category as with more tonnage than a 11/17/11 25 ton mech so balance wise this is very much edge case territory. At this low tonnage the difference between the clan and IS versions isn't significant. A 20 ton mech can hit jump 15, but if you want both TAG and any armor you need Clan tech. Jump 16 becomes just about possible and you can hit jump 17 with the aid of either mixed tech (Small Cockpit, XL Gyro) or Dark Age tech (Clan Interface Cockpit, no gyro) but I haven't found a way to hit jump 18.

If you've got IJJs instead of Partials Wings then you 30 ton 7/11/11 mech only has a half ton advantage over the 25 ton 11/17/11 with ultralights, but you can pull the same trick on a 50 ton mech and get all the tonnage you need. I can't find a way to actually use a hypothetical 0.5ton IJJ than doesn't either get beaten by a heavier mech or run out of crits. I was half expecting something to seriously break here, but

I don't think you can combine a PW and 0.5ton IJJs to do anything useful.

So in conclusion, I suppose the ultimate effect is to make a few mechs(such as Spiders) obsolete, to introduce some of the more ridiculous jump ranges of Jihad/Dark Age mechs into earlier eras and to make a few edge case high jump ranges possible. I don't think the game actually falls apart, especially if you don't allow customs, but I also wouldn't want to fight a 11/17/11 25 ton Clan mech during the invasion so if after modifying existing mechs you also allow new customs, I'd advise some caution.

[Daryk]

Maingunnery has a good idea.  Limiting them to 'mechs under 20 tons would be another easy way to balance them.  Failing that, I think 2 crits is the best way.  It's not like 'mechs down there need them, after all.

[RifleMech]

I think that is they just remain in the right tonnage range (10-15 tons) it would be balanced enough.

Thing is even if limited to 10-15 ton mechs, without any penalties the UL JJs would invalidate the Flea 14 and Protomech Jump Jets.

[Maingunnery]

Thing is even if limited to 10-15 ton mechs, without any penalties the UL JJs would invalidate the Flea 14 and Protomech Jump Jets.

That Mech was introduced in 2519, having a later introduction date for ULJJs would be an quick fix.
And Protomech Jump Jets are still more advanced (weight only 150kg/JJ MP) for the same tonnage range.
There is no real issue.

[RifleMech]

Then that might be okay, if limited to just XL Mechs built after 2519

[Crimson Dawn]

Just as a comparison for the upper range being talked about we could look at the locust versus the ostscout.  A locust could drop its machine guns and ammo to pick up 8 jump jets for .25 tons each.  This would make the two pretty similar in that both would 8/12/8 movers with a single medium laser for armament.  The ostscout would have an advantage in toughness with higher structure and as I recall armor.

But what about adding in advanced tech?  Well looking at those two mechs again advanced tech tends to benefit the larger mechs more.  Double heat sinks will take up more room on the locust because it cannot fit all base 10 of them inside of its engine unlike the ostscout.  Endo steel, ferro fibrous, XL engines, and XL gyros all give more weight back when you are using a larger design (assuming that if using standard materials you were even on available tonnage) so the ostscout would still hold the advantage over the jumping locust after using advanced tech.

Not saying anything about whether it should exist or not just trying to get a point of comparison going on a set of existing mech that this would affect. 

As for how I see this as I recall in the most original version of the game (probably when it was still named "BattleDroids") all jump jets were 1/2 ton each and was later changed to what they are today.  To me I am tending to think that if this rule was implemented I would see it like that though in terms of implementing it that would be slightly annoying since a whole bunch of current designs would have to be slightly redone but since I would never get to use this anyway the whole issue is merely academic for me.

[Retry]

I threw a few custom "Super Stingers" up with a friend over Megamek to test them.  Designed through Megameklab as though they were using the new rules so they were technically overweight and illegal designs (by about 1.5 tons).

One of the Super Stinger variants was basically an up-armored 3R, another was an up-engined 3G (7/11/7, twin Medium Lasers).  The Super 3R behaved just about what you'd expect: a modestly more durable Stinger.  The second one was a surprise and a pleasure to run, if somewhat hot-running in prolonged fighting.  The 7-hex jump made a big difference, and the uprated engine on the Super 3G especially made it feel more "scouty" (I've always felt 6/9 was a bit on a slow side even with jump jets for such a small scout.  Other heavier mechs managed more armor and arms at the same or better speed. (Commando, Mongoose, Jenner))

They were pains in the rump to hit with 3025 tech (especially the Super 3G), but that's usually the case with small fast jumpy things.  It's still "just" a Stinger though, so it wasn't exactly dominating the battlefield.

Overall, the Super Stingers turned out to be solid platforms, but didn't seem to break anything in the 3025 setting we tested them in.

I might test out some other 'mech or era and see if that makes any difference.  I can't think of any specific case I'd like to test at the top of my head.  At the moment, I'm content with the current results.

[Giovanni Blasini]

I think 25 tons may be a bit high to go, but 10-15 shouldn't be an issue, and even 20 tons should be fine.

I doubt I'd make the jump jets take up more crits. They're still standard jump jets, they're just for smaller 'Mechs.

That said, I'm half of the mind to treat 20-ton 'Mechs like ultralights anyway.

[RifleMech]

The Stinger can't jump 7 spaces without using a larger engine and an additional jump jet or by using improved jump jets. The option that uses the least weight would be the Prototype IJJ, needing .5 tons. A 140 engine and 7th JJ needs 2 tons. Production IJJ needs 4 more tons.


I could maybe see 20 tons using  UL JJ but if they were new tech. I don't think older designs should be invalidated.

[Retry]

The Stinger can't jump 7 spaces without using a larger engine and an additional jump jet or by using improved jump jets. The option that uses the least weight would be the Prototype IJJ, needing .5 tons. A 140 engine and 7th JJ needs 2 tons. Production IJJ needs 4 more tons.


I could maybe see 20 tons using  UL JJ but if they were new tech. I don't think older designs should be invalidated.

A 140 engine and 7th JJ needs 1.5 tons.
The 120 fusion weighs 4 tons.  The 140 engine weighs 5 tons, 1 more.  The spare regular jump jet weighs 0.5 tons extra, for a total difference of 1.5 tons.  That's regular jump jets, not the ultra-light ones.

Equipping a Stinger with ULJJs will free up 1.5 tons.  For the fast "Super Stinger", the 140 engine upgrade (1 ton) and another ULJJ (0.25 tons) costs 1.25 tons.  You technically have a quarter-ton of weight to spare which could go into 4 points of armor with fractional accounting (with our quick-and-dirty test we just kept the speed upgrade).

I'd just handle the few units Mechs under 30 tons by slight redesigns on a case-by-case basis.  Armor, maybe a slight engine upgrade like I did with the "super stinger" examples, maybe a tiny weapon upgrade here and there.  There's not a huge amount of Mechs that small that actually mount Jump Jets, and only the Wasp & Stinger really see regular use in our campaigns.

[killfr3nzy]

I'm in favour of it, if only so that not all 'Mechs under 60 tons use the exact same weight-per-jet; Assault, Heavy, Medium, Light, maybe even Extra-Light should each have their own weight categories for jets.

But then, I'm in favour of Fractional Accounting in general, so I don't really see the issue here.

[Daryk]

I also prefer Fractional Accounting as the default, but that doesn't seem to be the opinion of most people these days.  I miss the days of TRO 3026...

And welcome to no longer having to prove you're human!  :thumbsup:

[packhntr]

I like the concept. 
My $0.02.

Limit the max usable tonnage to 5-35, this way it covers the entirety of ultralight mechs and light mechs.
Tonnage: 0.5/hex of jump movement.
Ctiticals: 2x per LJJ
heat: 2x Per movement with a minimum of 4 (2 hex jump)

Any damage taken, renders the LJJ damaged and useless.  NO explosion.
Otherwise functions as normal Jump Jets.

As for BV..... not certain. 



edited - 35t was 45t

[Giovanni Blasini]

I like the concept. 
My $0.02.

Limit the max usable tonnage to 5-45, this way it covers the entirety of ultralight mechs and light mechs.
Tonnage: 0.5/hex of jump movement.
Ctiticals: 2x per LJJ
heat: 2x Per movement with a minimum of 4 (2 hex jump)

Any damage taken, renders the LJJ damaged and useless.  NO explosion.
Otherwise functions as normal Jump Jets.

As for BV..... not certain.

Uh...so your suggestion is standard jump jets should take twice the number of criticals and do twice the heat on BattleMechs under 50 tons?  Because the standard jump jet, as is, masses 0.5 ton per jump MP already in those mass brackets, but is only a single critical and one heat per jump jet.

[RifleMech]

A 140 engine and 7th JJ needs 1.5 tons.
The 120 fusion weighs 4 tons.  The 140 engine weighs 5 tons, 1 more.  The spare regular jump jet weighs 0.5 tons extra, for a total difference of 1.5 tons.  That's regular jump jets, not the ultra-light ones.

Equipping a Stinger with ULJJs will free up 1.5 tons.  For the fast "Super Stinger", the 140 engine upgrade (1 ton) and another ULJJ (0.25 tons) costs 1.25 tons.  You technically have a quarter-ton of weight to spare which could go into 4 points of armor with fractional accounting (with our quick-and-dirty test we just kept the speed upgrade).

I'd just handle the few units Mechs under 30 tons by slight redesigns on a case-by-case basis.  Armor, maybe a slight engine upgrade like I did with the "super stinger" examples, maybe a tiny weapon upgrade here and there.  There's not a huge amount of Mechs that small that actually mount Jump Jets, and only the Wasp & Stinger really see regular use in our campaigns.

You're right. I looked at the wrong row. Still, if this is presented as old technology then existing designs get invalidated.

The adding 4 points of armor using the Fractional Accounting rules could also cause problems. Which stats for other units get used? TRO:2750, TRO:3050? Or the retconned versions?

I like the Fractional Accounting rules but I generally only use them for customs or really high end designs. Like using the retconned for House or Regular SLDF and the Fractional Accounting for Royals or Solaris VII.

[Retry]

You're right. I looked at the wrong row. Still, if this is presented as old technology then existing designs get invalidated.

The adding 4 points of armor using the Fractional Accounting rules could also cause problems. Which stats for other units get used? TRO:2750, TRO:3050? Or the retconned versions?

I'm not sure if UL-JJs should be a later tech advancement (Star League era, Jihad era, or beyond) or if it should be introduced as old technologies, though I'm leaning towards the latter.  I'd just fix the few 'Mechs that are impacted by the change on a case-by-case basis by adding a bit more equipment or armor.  There's not very many Battlemechs that are actually impacted by the changes, since there's not many jumpers at 25 tons and less.  It's not a big deal.

[Giovanni Blasini]

I'm not sure if UL-JJs should be a later tech advancement (Star League era, Jihad era, or beyond) or if it should be introduced as old technologies, though I'm leaning towards the latter.  I'd just fix the few 'Mechs that are impacted by the change on a case-by-case basis by adding a bit more equipment or armor.  There's not very many Battlemechs that are actually impacted by the changes, since there's not many jumpers at 25 tons and less.  It's not a big deal.

If we want to limit the impact on canon designs, and set this 0.25 tons as the mass for ultralight 10-15 ton 'Mechs, are there any canon designs besides the FLE-14 that's impacted?

[Retry]

If we want to limit the impact on canon designs, and set this 0.25 tons as the mass for ultralight 10-15 ton 'Mechs, are there any canon designs besides the FLE-14 that's impacted?

The FLE-14 is the only ultralight with jump jets, yes.

[RifleMech]

I'm not sure if UL-JJs should be a later tech advancement (Star League era, Jihad era, or beyond) or if it should be introduced as old technologies, though I'm leaning towards the latter.  I'd just fix the few 'Mechs that are impacted by the change on a case-by-case basis by adding a bit more equipment or armor.  There's not very many Battlemechs that are actually impacted by the changes, since there's not many jumpers at 25 tons and less.  It's not a big deal.

I counted at least 12 mechs, not including different variants, Phoenix variants, and IIC that mounted jump jets in at least as many TROs. That doesn't include OMNI Configurations where JJs weren't fixed or other variants found only in RS that add JJs. And I don't think I looked through half the TROs that have been published. That's a lot to retcon.

If we want to limit the impact on canon designs, and set this 0.25 tons as the mass for ultralight 10-15 ton 'Mechs, are there any canon designs besides the FLE-14 that's impacted?

It's the only one we know of.

[Retry]

I counted at least 12 mechs, not including different variants, Phoenix variants, and IIC that mounted jump jets in at least as many TROs. That doesn't include OMNI Configurations where JJs weren't fixed or other variants found only in RS that add JJs. And I don't think I looked through half the TROs that have been published. That's a lot to retcon.

A dozen afflicted 'Mechs out of thousands is not very many and easily manageable.  Of those, only the Stingers and Wasps see regular use in my group's campaigns, so there's only 2 'Mechs that are high priority to redo, and the changes are already in our books.

It's really not a big deal.

[packhntr]

Uh...so your suggestion is standard jump jets should take twice the number of criticals and do twice the heat on BattleMechs under 50 tons?  Because the standard jump jet, as is, masses 0.5 ton per jump MP already in those mass brackets, but is only a single critical and one heat per jump jet.

I messed up in tonnage.  Meant the upper limit to be 35t. 

The reasoning is this:  Lighter materials required, more bulky then regular units due to this.  As for the heat, looking towards XXLFE for the inspiration...  Lighter, but less efficient...generates more heat.

[Retry]

I messed up in tonnage.  Meant the upper limit to be 35t. 

The reasoning is this:  Lighter materials required, more bulky then regular units due to this.  As for the heat, looking towards XXLFE for the inspiration...  Lighter, but less efficient...generates more heat.

On the other hand, you don't need nearly as much force to lift a 25-ton Battlemech as you do need a 50 ton Battlemech (or 75-ton or 100-ton Mechs for that matter), so simply having a smaller version of the jump jets would suffice.

[idea weenie]

Make these ULJJ built at only 1-2 factories, so even though they were useful, the factories were quickly destroyed during the 1SW.

That is why the .5 ton JJ was used afterwards.

For tonnage limit, I'd say anything 25 tons or less can use it.  So a 6/9/6 Stinger using ULJJ now only needs 1.5 tons for its Jump Capacity, instead of 3 tons.  That 1.5 tons could have been used for heavier armor, or additional weapons.  During 1SW the factory for the ULJJ was destroyed, so armor was reduced to let the Stinger keep its full Jump maneuverability.

(I would argue any Mech can always use a Jump jet designed for a larger Mech, but the smaller Mech won't get as much benefit.  So technically you could mount a 2-ton JJ on a Stinger, but it would still only count as 1 JJ.)

[Hellraiser]

I think one of the issues is JJ's are too light at the upper levels.

If they scaled with Mech Size bracket then you could leave them at 1/2 ton for Lights.

Lights = .5/JJ
Mediums = 1T/JJ
Heavy = 1.5T/JJ
Assault = 2T/JJ

I think that might really cut down on the # of Bouncy Bouncy Super-Mediums out there.


But I'm also of the mind that IJJ's should be the same weights & NOT get the Heat Reduction but make them MORE heat instead to balance them.
Double Crits & Double Heat for going Jumping RUN distance.
The need for more DHS & yet bigger JJs then limits things like Endo/Ferro & the amount of guns you can shoot at the same time.

[Sabelkatten]

I'd prefer 0.33 tons per JJ for 25-35 ton, 0.25 tons for 10-20 tons. In general jumping light mechs just suffer too much for the weight of their JJs - I mean, why does a Stinger need to spend 15% of its tonnage on jump 6 when a Pixie only spends 7%?

[Hellraiser]

Hmm, 

Now I have the idea of a rule where JJ's are a % of Mech Weight like Partial Wings.

Rounded up to the nearest .5 ton & with 1 slot per MP.


Lets look at the edges of each range.

20 Tons = 2.5% / MP
55 Tons = .91% / MP
60 Tons  =  1.67% / MP
85 Tons  =  1.18% / MP
90 Tons  =  2.22% / MP
100 Tons   =  2% / MP

Wow, you really do see the 20 ton mechs getting the shaft in this comparison.


For a nice average I'm thinking 1.5% of the Mech Weight for each MP of Jumping is a good middle ground


Reconfigured for several common mechs in each of those brackets above.

Wasp - 6MP = 2 Tons
Griffin - 5MP = 4.5 Tons
Quickdraw - 5MP = 4.5 Tons
Shogun - 3MP = 4 Tons
Highlander - 3MP = 4.5 Tons
Marauder-II - 3MP = 4.5 Tons


Honestly, I'd be okay with those amounts.  Feels like better balance at those break points, less meta gaming

[RifleMech]

A dozen afflicted 'Mechs out of thousands is not very many and easily manageable.  Of those, only the Stingers and Wasps see regular use in my group's campaigns, so there's only 2 'Mechs that are high priority to redo, and the changes are already in our books.

It's really not a big deal.

That's a dozen out of maybe half the TRO. I didn't look through all of them. I also didn't look through RS to see if there were variants with JJs when the TRO  variant didn't.  That number also doesn't include all the OMNIs 25 tons and under as their configurations can easily include jump jets. So the number is bigger than a dozen. 

2 in this campaign. And the next one?

Hmm, 

Now I have the idea of a rule where JJ's are a % of Mech Weight like Partial Wings.

Rounded up to the nearest .5 ton & with 1 slot per MP.


Lets look at the edges of each range.

20 Tons = 2.5% / MP
55 Tons = .91% / MP
60 Tons  =  1.67% / MP
85 Tons  =  1.18% / MP
90 Tons  =  2.22% / MP
100 Tons   =  2% / MP

Wow, you really do see the 20 ton mechs getting the shaft in this comparison.


For a nice average I'm thinking 1.5% of the Mech Weight for each MP of Jumping is a good middle ground


Reconfigured for several common mechs in each of those brackets above.

Wasp - 6MP = 2 Tons
Griffin - 5MP = 4.5 Tons
Quickdraw - 5MP = 4.5 Tons
Shogun - 3MP = 4 Tons
Highlander - 3MP = 4.5 Tons
Marauder-II - 3MP = 4.5 Tons


Honestly, I'd be okay with those amounts.  Feels like better balance at those break points, less meta gaming

That makes sense. Would you handle Superheavy Mechs the same way?

[Retry]

2 in this campaign. And the next one?

The very few afflicted 'Mechs in the next one get redesigned on a case by case basis.  Like I said before.  I really don't know what part you're struggling with.

[Daryk]

Personally, I'd really restrict these ultra-light jump jets to 'mechs under 20 tons.  That would require almost zero tweaking to canon designs.

[Atarlost]

Then that might be okay, if limited to just XL Mechs built after 2519

I'd definitely go the other way.  They only get "dangerous" on XL mechs so make them only work with standard engines.  With the insanely fast XL engined designs ruled out they just give the 20-25 ton mechs a niche other than cheap filler (which is generally better filled with vehicles). 

Getting an excuse to redesign some mechs to be more interesting is a bonus for some of us. 

[Maingunnery]

I'd definitely go the other way.  They only get "dangerous" on XL mechs so make them only work with standard engines.  With the insanely fast XL engined designs ruled out they just give the 20-25 ton mechs a niche other than cheap filler (which is generally better filled with vehicles). 

I think that he was referring to Ultralight BattleMechs, not to XL engines.

[RifleMech]

The very few afflicted 'Mechs in the next one get redesigned on a case by case basis.  Like I said before.  I really don't know what part you're struggling with.

Yes, however some of those "few" mechs are some of the most mass produced in BattleTech. That ends up being a lot of mechs. Changes to their performance would have a snowball effect. Entire battles could be changed because the bugs are now more effective. Altering a battle could alter an entire campaign.

Personally, I'd really restrict these ultra-light jump jets to 'mechs under 20 tons.  That would require almost zero tweaking to canon designs.

I agree. One Mech variant with limited production being changed doesn't change things. Changing hundreds of thousands of mechs changes a lot.

I think that he was referring to Ultralight BattleMechs, not to XL engines.

That's right. Sorry for the confusion.   :-[

[Retry]

Yes, however some of those "few" mechs are some of the most mass produced in BattleTech. That ends up being a lot of mechs. Changes to their performance would have a snowball effect. Entire battles could be changed because the bugs are now more effective. Altering a battle could alter an entire campaign.

The most mass produced 'mechs are the Bugs, which we've already changed.  This debate has taken more time than it took for me to redo the Bugs.  And no, the change to scouts has not had a snowball effect in our matches.  Thus far, it's just made <30t jumpers more useful and nice to use in general.

The common Bugs like the Stinger and Wasp are generic and used by all factions, so all the factions benefit and the idea that there being a lighter jump jet in a specific subset of situations would cause some sort of butterfly effect that changes the look of the BT universe is moot.

[RifleMech]

The most mass produced 'mechs are the Bugs, which we've already changed.  This debate has taken more time than it took for me to redo the Bugs.  And no, the change to scouts has not had a snowball effect in our matches.  Thus far, it's just made <30t jumpers more useful and nice to use in general.

The common Bugs like the Stinger and Wasp are generic and used by all factions, so all the factions benefit and the idea that there being a lighter jump jet in a specific subset of situations would cause some sort of butterfly effect that changes the look of the BT universe is moot.

Not really. If bug mechs are harder to kill they're now taking shots away from other units that would have been hit had the bugs been weaker. They're also more effective back stabbers and then there's the Bug Charges. They could now work as the bugs aren't so easy to kill. So yes, there could be a butterfly effect. 

[Retry]

Not really.

I've used them and tested them.  You have not.  As such, I really don't have any interest in your opinion.

[Daryk]

I'd be curious to see if your change makes Mercer Ravannion's theories workable.  If so, then I'd definitely say it would impact the wider universe.  By your own admission:

Thus far, it's just made <30t jumpers more useful and nice to use in general.

7.5% extra mass to throw at weapons and armor is not trivial when you weigh 20 tons.

[Retry]

I'd be curious to see if your change makes Mercer Ravannion's theories workable.  If so, then I'd definitely say it would impact the wider universe.  By your own admission:
7.5% extra mass to throw at weapons and armor is not trivial when you weigh 20 tons.

I had to look up Ravannion.  It's an interesting read.

I'd argue his ideas were workable, he just picked the wrong horse to run.  The canon vanilla Stinger & Wasp manage to be simultaneously too slow for its size, too poorly armored for its speed, and too toothless for the risk it poses to the pilot.  Something like the Locust 1E beats them in each area while being cheaper, and would be much more workable as a swarm 'Mech, and it would actually be cheaper (C-Bill wise, not BV) to field.  The Mongoose (MON-67) would essentially be like a Locust on steroids, though no longer cheaper than Stingers & Wasps.  And if you don't require the emphasis on "cheap", there's always the Jenner.  Any of these, though they might still not have won the engagements, would have fared better.

It's an interesting idea though, if the Wasps & Stingers had ULJJs during Mercer's battles, would that have shift the tide in Mercer's battles?  It's possible.  Of course, using the extra weight for speed and another jump jet increases the cost by around 100k C-Bills, which is not a small amount.  Since Mercer Ravannion was so cost conscious, he might have then turned to Fleas (FLE-14) as his go-to swarm mech.

Is there a scenario pack for Mercer's swarm scenarios?  That change might be worth testing out on the field.

[Daryk]

There's a scenario in the Fox's Teeth book (pages 14-15 refer).  The scenario pits a Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Wasp and Stinger (all pristine) against 2 Wasps, 4 Stingers, and one Shadow Hawk (all but one damaged), though there are specific victory conditions (which give a lot of points to Ravannion for exiting units off the far side of the map).