HAG 40

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Silver Bullet Gauss is an Inner Sphere weapon.  The HAG is a Clan weapon.

The SBG also works far less well as a primary weapon than the HAG: it's an excellent crit-seeker but it needs something to punch holes in the enemy.  The HAG 40, while not the most efficient at the task, can do an adequate job taking out armor so long as the target doesn't have Hardened, FL, or Anti-Ballistic armor.

[Firesprocket]

And against a FL armored target that SB Gauss will do no damage since each pellet is reduced to 0.  HAG will do a reduced amount of damage, which is better than none at all.

[Caedis Animus]

So if a Gauss Rifle is a rifle, the HAG is a Gauss Shotgun?

The Gauss Rifle is a Rifle, the Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle is a Shotgun, the AP Gauss Rifle is a really big ferro-nickel Needler, the Magshot is a Kolibri, and the HAGR is a minigun.

[Daryk]

Heh... the HAG is a modern "autocannon"...  ^-^

[Retry]

The Silver Bullet Gauss is an Inner Sphere weapon.  The HAG is a Clan weapon.

The SBG also works far less well as a primary weapon than the HAG: it's an excellent crit-seeker but it needs something to punch holes in the enemy.  The HAG 40, while not the most efficient at the task, can do an adequate job taking out armor so long as the target doesn't have Hardened, FL, or Anti-Ballistic armor.

HAG is still pretty good against FL and hardened, only a few specific, specialty weapons are more effective.

[dgorsman]

The HAG, especially the HAG 40, is a chainsaw powered belt sander.

Keep an eye on the gas tank.

[grimlock1]

HAG is still pretty good against FL and hardened, only a few specific, specialty weapons are more effective.

Not sure I follow you on HAGs doing well against Hardened.

[Scotty]

Not sure I follow you on HAGs doing well against Hardened.

Large amounts of raw damage are good against Hardened.  The HAG 40 is capable, if not particularly likely in a given turn (27% at short range) of forcing a PSR from damage against Hardened all by its lonesome.  Exactly two other weapons can do that: the Ultra/20 and the MRM-40.  Neither of those are as likely to do it for a couple reasons.

[Retry]

Large amounts of raw damage are good against Hardened.  The HAG 40 is capable, if not particularly likely in a given turn (27% at short range) of forcing a PSR from damage against Hardened all by its lonesome.  Exactly two other weapons can do that: the Ultra/20 and the MRM-40.  Neither of those are as likely to do it for a couple reasons.

I thought PSRs were based on damage.

Hardened technically absorbs 2 damage per bubble, so an AC/20 would knock off 10 bubbles but would still be 20 damage, which would mean a PSR.  While an AC/20 hitting Ferro-Lamellor would be reduced down to 16 damage, which is under 20, so no PSR.

I may be wrong.  I swear, every other month something I "know" about hardened armor is wrong.

[Weirdo]

Nope. It was recently clarified that for Hardened units, you need to actually remove 20 dots.

[Scotty]

Source: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=10958.msg1415215#msg1415215

[Firesprocket]

The net effect is that +1 pilot mod looks much less obnoxious and a liability because you have to take twice as much damage before it becomes an issue

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's about the only thing that allows a Stalker II to stay upright.

[Retry]

Source: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=10958.msg1415215#msg1415215

Neat.  Kind of feels like the buff mostly negates that particular +1 piloting modifier penalty though, but I like hardened armor so I'm not complaining.

I was more referring to HAGs having quite a bit of oomph to their shots to get through Hardened armor's thick shell, the brute force approach.  I hadn't even thought about PSRs.

[Apocal]

Neat.  Kind of feels like the buff mostly negates that particular +1 piloting modifier penalty though, but I like hardened armor so I'm not complaining.

At least until you walk on some rubble or turn the wrong corner in a city.

[Col Toda]

Against a typical combat vehicle with out ) the rarified FL Armor ( about 20 published rare units  ) . HG 20 average 12 cluster 5 / 5 / 2 which is 3 opportunities for motive critical to immoblize it for aimed shots . The Silver Bullet averages 9 with 9 shots to immoblize the vehicle . The unit with such a weapon should be a highly mobile skermisher unit working in concert with something like a regular gauss rifle or ER PPC to finish off said immobile target . A regular Gauss Rifle is a decisive weapon .  If the opposition force is mostly mechs . A better one is HAG  if it is combat vehicles.   With the common Heavy Ferro Fibrous Armor that combat vehicles sport a 50 ton hovertank say 60 points front and turret can easily move from one hull down postion to another one 7 hexes apart for a +5 defensive mod 3 for movement 2 for hull down .  The Standard Gauss Rifle is better against a non combined arms opposition . A small percentage of cluster weapons are  very nice against combat vehicles and infantry .

[Brakiel]

To be fair, a HAG20 is 10 tons to a SB Gauss’s 15. Even with the Clan’s efficiency bonus, that difference is a bit much. A more apt comparison would be against a HAG30.

Against a typical combat vehicle with out ) the rarified FL Armor ( about 20 published rare units  ) . HG 20 average 12 cluster 5 / 5 / 2 which is 3 opportunities for motive critical to immoblize it for aimed shots . The Silver Bullet averages 9 with 9 shots to immoblize the vehicle . The unit with such a weapon should be a highly mobile skermisher unit working in concert with something like a regular gauss rifle or ER PPC to finish off said immobile target . A regular Gauss Rifle is a decisive weapon .  If the opposition force is mostly mechs . A better one is HAG  if it is combat vehicles.   With the common Heavy Ferro Fibrous Armor that combat vehicles sport a 50 ton hovertank say 60 points front and turret can easily move from one hull down postion to another one 7 hexes apart for a +5 defensive mod 3 for movement 2 for hull down .  The Standard Gauss Rifle is better against a non combined arms opposition . A small percentage of cluster weapons are  very nice against combat vehicles and infantry .

[Col Toda]

Ok HAG 30 5 / 5 / 5 / 3 average while Silver Bullet 9 hits of 1 . So more than double the motor critical chance vs triple the chance with HAG 20 . Still at that point the Normal Clan Gauss wins out . Which is the point of this thread . If you are going for a cluster weapon you very well need one . Since this is a Clan weapon issue make an omni pod one with a standard Gauss and the other with HAG field what the intelligence on the opposition force make up is then call it a day .

[Apocal]

I've always thought of the HAG as being more general purpose because even with five point clusters only being five points, they are still much better for knocking open holes than the sandblasting spray of LB-X or SBG. I don't necessarily like that design, because five point clusters at long range brings it right into competition with the LRM (and under quite unfavorable terms to boot) but there is some utility to being able to can-open lights when no other option is available.

[Brakiel]

Ok HAG 30 5 / 5 / 5 / 3 average while Silver Bullet 9 hits of 1 . So more than double the motor critical chance vs triple the chance with HAG 20 . Still at that point the Normal Clan Gauss wins out . Which is the point of this thread . If you are going for a cluster weapon you very well need one . Since this is a Clan weapon issue make an omni pod one with a standard Gauss and the other with HAG field what the intelligence on the opposition force make up is then call it a day .

I'm going to refer back to one of my previous posts, and repeat that the HAG isn't the best weapon for any one situation, but is a good weapon for many situations. You'll get no argument from me that a SB Gauss is better for AA fire or parking vehicles. But an average of 9 1-point clusters from a 15 ton weapon does not impress me if I need to engage in a straight up shoot out. SB Gauss lacks LBX's solid shot, so you basically have to pay a "weapon tax" in order to have an appropriate hole puncher.

Meanwhile, a HAG may generate fewer clusters if and when I need it, but some is better than none, and it still can deal a good amount of damage. I shouldn't have to rely on perfect intelligence and my opponent cooperating with their force composition for me to choose what kind of Gauss I should mount.

[Retry]

I'm going to refer back to one of my previous posts, and repeat that the HAG isn't the best weapon for any one situation, but is a good weapon for many situations. You'll get no argument from me that a SB Gauss is better for AA fire or parking vehicles. But an average of 9 1-point clusters from a 15 ton weapon does not impress me if I need to engage in a straight up shoot out. SB Gauss lacks LBX's solid shot, so you basically have to pay a "weapon tax" in order to have an appropriate hole puncher.

Meanwhile, a HAG may generate fewer clusters if and when I need it, but some is better than none, and it still can deal a good amount of damage. I shouldn't have to rely on perfect intelligence and my opponent cooperating with their force composition for me to choose what kind of Gauss I should mount.

I actually prefer the HAG over the Silver Bullet in the AA role, at least against aircraft.  The 5-point clusters are better for getting threshold crits, dealing a lot more overall damage is also good for wearing them down faster (They'll still probably lawn dart first anyways, but still), the marginally better range on the HAG can be useful since range is god for AA guns, and the AA bonus is, IIRC, equivalent.

VTOLs are slightly different beasts, since more cluster hits means more juicy rotor hits, but there's still times when the raw damage the HAG can spit out is just plain nice.

[Firesprocket]

I don't necessarily like that design, because five point clusters at long range brings it right into competition with the LRM (and under quite unfavorable terms to boot) but there is some utility to being able to can-open lights when no other option is available.

With nothing else going on, yes.  However if your opponent is packing AMS, which isn't terribly uncommon, then that HAG doesn't look so bad.  Reactive armor also is going to reduce the damage, though it's surprisingly not common use at all.  The only thing that is going to effect a HAGs damage is FL, which effects everything equally, and a really bad armor that only the DC seems to use in any quantity.

[Brakiel]

With nothing else going on, yes.  However if your opponent is packing AMS, which isn't terribly uncommon, then that HAG doesn't look so bad.  Reactive armor also is going to reduce the damage, though it's surprisingly not common use at all.  The only thing that is going to effect a HAGs damage is FL, which effects everything equally, and a really bad armor that only the DC seems to use in any quantity.

What's wrong with Ballistic Reinforced?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's horribly inefficient in tonnage.

[Apocal]

With nothing else going on, yes.  However if your opponent is packing AMS, which isn't terribly uncommon, then that HAG doesn't look so bad.  Reactive armor also is going to reduce the damage, though it's surprisingly not common use at all.  The only thing that is going to effect a HAGs damage is FL, which effects everything equally, and a really bad armor that only the DC seems to use in any quantity.

I don't disagree, but I don't think that being more effective against AMS-equipped mechs makes up for the HAG being so heavy and eating so many crits. AMS isn't uncommon, but it is far from standard, even in late-era games.

What's wrong with Ballistic Reinforced?

Heavy for the amount of protection it gives on battlefield that still features generous quantities of PPCs, LPLs, ERLLs, etc. I wouldn't say it is "really bad" but I have played all of perhaps three (maybe only two) matches with it. It did its job taming the rather nutso amount of LRMs and ATMs that were coming my way, along with turning an errant UAC/20 from a headcap to a life support hit but that might be outlier performance.

[Brakiel]

Heavy for the amount of protection it gives on battlefield that still features generous quantities of PPCs, LPLs, ERLLs, etc. I wouldn't say it is "really bad" but I have played all of perhaps three (maybe only two) matches with it. It did its job taming the rather nutso amount of LRMs and ATMs that were coming my way, along with turning an errant UAC/20 from a headcap to a life support hit but that might be outlier performance.

That's kinda my point. I'd reserve "really bad" for something like Heat Dissipating Armor. BRA isn't mind blowing, but it does exactly what it says on the box by blunting 2 of the 3 weapon "food groups". It also lacks any overt drawback like Reflective or Reactive. So for a 25% reduction in points per ton over standard armor, that seems pretty fair. My only complaints would be taking up 10 crit slots and not protecting against armor piercing effects like the Hardened Armor it's derived from.

[Scotty]

I actually really like BRA and intend to victimize at least one of my local opponents by bringing an entire force with it.  Or maybe half and half with BRA and RFA.  That'd be fun.

[Retry]

That's kinda my point. I'd reserve "really bad" for something like Heat Dissipating Armor. BRA isn't mind blowing, but it does exactly what it says on the box by blunting 2 of the 3 weapon "food groups". It also lacks any overt drawback like Reflective or Reactive. So for a 25% reduction in points per ton over standard armor, that seems pretty fair. My only complaints would be taking up 10 crit slots and not protecting against armor piercing effects like the Hardened Armor it's derived from.

LB-X autocannons are one of the more popular ballistic weapons (aside from Gauss).  The usual response against BRA, when I was experimenting with it, is "More Dakka!", specifically cluster rounds.  Which made the BRA, effectively, a heavier version of ERA.

That "minimum 1 damage per attack" clause on the "food group armors" can be downright painful...

[Apocal]

I actually really like BRA and intend to victimize at least one of my local opponents by bringing an entire force with it.  Or maybe half and half with BRA and RFA.  That'd be fun.

lol, I didn't realize very many people actually played post-3132 BT, even in MM.

Anyway, I would like HAGs a bit more if they simply clustered differently. Something like 10 point clusters would be cool and help differentiate them (further) from LRMs outside of the mechlab, since apparently they decided to do away with the low-heat nature of Gauss weapons when it came to HAGs.

[RevenVrake]

I view the bigger HAGs as Clan answers to the Inner Sphere Heavy Gauss Rifle (and its improved sibling). Huge (For clan weapons) and with lots of damage but awful ammo counts per ton. And while they don't hole-punch like the HGR does if you connect with 30-40 damage from one gun the other guy is gonna feel it. Plus, it does have the option of longer range than say an Ultra-20 and it has no Jamming risk (Some folks really hate that idea). Its also kinda a response to the Inner Sphere RAC-5 (does damage in five point clusters, etc). At least until the Clanners broke down and copied the things themselves.

They're really nice against vehicles, with those multiple hits meaning multiple chances to immobilize or knock the crew of a tank out.

Another faction I have to consider is...at least in the table top Battletech is a Dice rolling game. The HAG really rewards lucky dice rolls and you have to do a lot of them but not so damn many like say the stupid amount an LBX 20 cluster shot demands. It falls into a nice middle ground.