Author Topic: HAG 40  (Read 15802 times)

grimlock1

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #60 on: 05 September 2019, 08:02:55 »
LB-X autocannons are one of the more popular ballistic weapons (aside from Gauss).  The usual response against BRA, when I was experimenting with it, is "More Dakka!", specifically cluster rounds.  Which made the BRA, effectively, a heavier version of ERA.

That "minimum 1 damage per attack" clause on the "food group armors" can be downright painful...
The continued vulnerability of "food group armors" to LB clusters certainly does keep other players honest.  It limits the other player's options.  Maybe they have to carry extra Cluster ammo, giving up hole punching. Maybe they figure it's not worth it to bring that Mad Dog C if they know those Gauss Rifles will be nerfed. Granted, most Clan omnis with a Gauss will also have an ERPPC option but now they have to ride a less forgiving heat curve.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #61 on: 05 September 2019, 13:07:13 »
I view the bigger HAGs as Clan answers to the Inner Sphere Heavy Gauss Rifle (and its improved sibling).

HAGs are explicitly fluffed as being a Clan derivative of the HGR, just choosing to take the weapon development in a radically different direction.
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SCC

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #62 on: 06 September 2019, 21:54:35 »
The continued vulnerability of "food group armors" to LB clusters certainly does keep other players honest.  It limits the other player's options.  Maybe they have to carry extra Cluster ammo, giving up hole punching. Maybe they figure it's not worth it to bring that Mad Dog C if they know those Gauss Rifles will be nerfed. Granted, most Clan omnis with a Gauss will also have an ERPPC option but now they have to ride a less forgiving heat curve.
I don't like it because it promotes the idea that cluster weapons, particularly LB-X's, are the One True Choice, when their probably the weapons most in need of nerffing.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #63 on: 06 September 2019, 22:16:25 »
I don't like it because it promotes the idea that cluster weapons, particularly LB-X's, are the One True Choice, when their probably the weapons most in need of nerffing.
I wouldn't say nerfing since ballistics are really the odd ones out, I'd say the rest of the ballistics should have been up to par to the level of the LB-X series.  But it's decades too late for that.

SCC

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #64 on: 07 September 2019, 05:48:11 »
I wouldn't say nerfing since ballistics are really the odd ones out, I'd say the rest of the ballistics should have been up to par to the level of the LB-X series.  But it's decades too late for that.
This is specifically nerffing LB-X's in cluster mode, in slug mode their fine. The problem is that very few options offer increased protection against cluster, and in fact might be worse off against cluster, that when adding new options not considering this is bad. Consider Shields, a LB-X pallet does as much damage to the shield as a Heavy Gauss round at short range!

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #65 on: 07 September 2019, 10:04:48 »
Yes, and?
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #66 on: 07 September 2019, 12:45:50 »
Yes, and?
Well, having one of the most common ballistic weapons being unimpeded by the armor type that's supposed to neuter it (to the point that standard armor becomes better on a ton-by-ton basis) feels wrong.  But more importantly feels weird to design and field something which is basically Reactive Armor but with a bonus against Gauss weapons.  It'd have felt much better if it only worked on Ballistics and had equivalent points-per-ton as standard armor just like the other anti-weapon flavors.  At least it wouldn't be worse against LB-X than standard armor, though I'd personally had prefer damage values of 1 be rounded down to 0.

Daryk

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #67 on: 07 September 2019, 12:47:25 »
Standard armor is SUPPOSED to be better on average.  That's why it's "standard"...

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #68 on: 07 September 2019, 12:58:24 »
Standard armor is SUPPOSED to be better on average.  That's why it's "standard"...
Other than being completely untrue for literally any other various technologies in Battletech (Standard Fusion vs XLE, Standard Autocannons vs most other flavors, Standard Structure vs Endo Steel, etc), you missed the point.

The higher-tech anti-ballistic armor (Ballistic-Reinforced) is less effective against a very common ballistic weapon (LB-X Clusters) than the lower-tech unspecialized armor.

Daryk

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #69 on: 07 September 2019, 13:08:10 »
Standard engines ARE better than XLs in the most important way: they're less likely to stop working when a side torso is torn off.

Standard Autocannons and structure are better because far more factories can make them.

The problem you point out with so-called "anti-ballistic" armor sounds like a problem with that particular armor, not Standard.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #70 on: 07 September 2019, 13:43:44 »
Standard engines ARE better than XLs in the most important way: they're less likely to stop working when a side torso is torn off.
That is an advantage but that doesn't make them overall superior.  The larger engine allows for more armor or higher speeds which helps avoid side torso losses in the first place.  Which is a big reason why people upgrade SFE designs with XLE designs when industry permits despite the side torso vulnerability and C-Bill hike.

That argument also doesn't apply to the XL Gyro which has its extra bulk in the center torso.  But any crits on the center torso are most likely either going to hit the gyro or the engine anyways, so that's a wash.
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Standard Autocannons and structure are better because far more factories can make them.
If they were better, we'd see a lot more upgrades transitioning from advanced ACs and structures to the standard variety.

I'm not denying that manufacturability is an advantage, but there's much more to it than that.  For instance, Rifle Cannons can be manufactured by even more industries than the Autocannons, but they're not better, as they're mostly obsolete in the 31st century battlefield as a weapon system.  The claim to fame of the standard Autocannon is basically "It's useful enough that it's not completely dead weight on the field at this time while it's simple enough that we can build it just about anywhere".  Which is why it's standard, as opposed to any intrinsic superiority over other autocannons.

Regular ACs are still obsolescent and are poised to be phased out by advanced autocannons when the technology and manufacturing base/supply chain catches up; note how the Clans don't use "standard" autocannons anymore, or lasers or PPCs for that matter.

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The problem you point out with so-called "anti-ballistic" armor sounds like a problem with that particular armor, not Standard.
Yes.  That's the point.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #71 on: 07 September 2019, 14:06:55 »
That's an issue with the armor, not cluster rounds somehow magically being overpowered.
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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #72 on: 07 September 2019, 14:15:26 »
That's an issue with the armor, not cluster rounds somehow magically being overpowered.
Yes.

That's the point.

Greatclub

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #73 on: 07 September 2019, 14:17:46 »
That is an advantage but that doesn't make them overall superior.  The larger engine allows for more armor or higher speeds which helps avoid side torso losses in the first place.  Which is a big reason why people upgrade SFE designs with XLE designs when industry permits despite the side torso vulnerability and C-Bill hike.

That argument also doesn't apply to the XL Gyro which has its extra bulk in the center torso.  But any crits on the center torso are most likely either going to hit the gyro or the engine anyways, so that's a wash.If they were better, we'd see a lot more upgrades transitioning from advanced ACs and structures to the standard variety.

I'd much rather take an early TAC to the engine than the gyro. In the era of double heat sinks an engine hit is irritating. A gyro hit is always crippling. XLgyros have their place in under-armoured light mechs, but not on any serious line machine.

Daryk

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #74 on: 07 September 2019, 14:41:34 »
Regarding Standard ACs... there was a time when 'mechs and vehicles were being fitted with them... right after the fall of the Star League.  The advanced stuff was falling out of production because that's how thin the manufacturing base was at the peak of human civilization.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #75 on: 07 September 2019, 14:50:10 »
This is specifically nerffing LB-X's in cluster mode, in slug mode their fine. The problem is that very few options offer increased protection against cluster, and in fact might be worse off against cluster, that when adding new options not considering this is bad. Consider Shields, a LB-X pallet does as much damage to the shield as a Heavy Gauss round at short range!
Well, having one of the most common ballistic weapons being unimpeded by the armor type that's supposed to neuter it (to the point that standard armor becomes better on a ton-by-ton basis) feels wrong.  But more importantly feels weird to design and field something which is basically Reactive Armor but with a bonus against Gauss weapons.  It'd have felt much better if it only worked on Ballistics and had equivalent points-per-ton as standard armor just like the other anti-weapon flavors.  At least it wouldn't be worse against LB-X than standard armor, though I'd personally had prefer damage values of 1 be rounded down to 0.

Notice how that wasn't the point of the original post?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #76 on: 07 September 2019, 15:34:02 »
I'd much rather take an early TAC to the engine than the gyro. In the era of double heat sinks an engine hit is irritating. A gyro hit is always crippling. XLgyros have their place in under-armoured light mechs, but not on any serious line machine.
There's some good, canon line machines that have XL Gyros.  I've done a lot with them, the XL Gyros don't uniquely endanger the mechs and brings a lot more good than bad.
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Notice how that wasn't the point of the original post?
Okay, once again.

This was my original post on the the subject of BRA in this thread on page two (which apparently has led to a slight derailment from the original topic.):
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LB-X autocannons are one of the more popular ballistic weapons (aside from Gauss).  The usual response against BRA, when I was experimenting with it, is "More Dakka!", specifically cluster rounds.  Which made the BRA, effectively, a heavier version of ERA.

That "minimum 1 damage per attack" clause on the "food group armors" can be downright painful...
I was not referring to any magical powers inherent to cluster ammo, I was clearly referring to the specific minimum-1 damage point issue from the very beginning.  LB-X clusters isn't the only weapon that benefits: Silver Bullet Gauss, low-power BA ballistic weapons (LMG, David GR, etc), and 'Mech-scale LMGs benefit too.

So, yes, my original point was on BRA and its issue.

Daryk

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #77 on: 07 September 2019, 15:55:00 »
Well, here was the OP:
Is the Hag less or more effective than a Gauss rifle?

Not much to do with BRA, there, really...

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #78 on: 07 September 2019, 16:09:25 »
Well, here was the OP:
Not the OP's point, my point (which has gotten everything off-tangent, apparently)

Firesprocket

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Re: HAG 40
« Reply #79 on: 14 September 2019, 21:43:51 »
Got in a game today with a Canis 2 with its pair of HAG-20s.  I think I'm beginning to come around to it more than the HAG-40.  The monster weight and low shots per ton make it extremely difficult for me justify taking a large HAG on a mech.  The HAG-20 made a nice complement to the other weapons on the mech and I felt, given the original design, were as good or better than the Ultra 10s due to their superior range.

 

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