3050-3052 Clan Advantages vs. Inner Sphere

[ManicMaestro]

I was reading the fiction that went along with the Revival Trials turning point and it has me thinking about creating a campaign where all, or at least most, of the clans participate in the invasion. Same timeline.

Where I’m going with this is coming up with a one liner description for players to pick their clan of choice.

For example:

Star Adders - beat the IS at its own game (heavies and assaults using conventional tactics)

Wolves - tactical and strategic flexibility (lots of cavalry mechs to dictate engagements)

Ice Hellions - so fast that the IS couldn’t keep up or counter their swarm tactics

What thoughts might you have to add to these descriptions, and if you were assigning multiple clans to each invasion corridor, what pairings would you use to offset each clans weaknesses?

Thanks for the help!

[massey]

You wouldn't need to offset any weaknesses.  The Inner Sphere could barely handle 4 Clans.  If they all attacked, it would be game over.  The only way the IS could slow the Clan advance was to throw regiment after regiment into the meat grinder and try to wear them down.  They pulled troops from all over their realms, leaving many borders nearly undefended.

"You see, killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them until they reached their limit and shut down."  --Victor Steiner Davion, probably.

Throw in the rest of the Clans and the Inner Sphere would crack.  Do you think the Capellan Confederation could hold up to the Star Adders?  Or that the Free Worlds League could hold out against the Hell's Horses and Ice Hellions?  Even the weaker Clans would roll through their opposition.  The IS only has so many elite regiments.

[rebs]

The true "hero of the day" from 3050 to 3052 was Trueborn arrogance.  The only thing that would stop all the Clans in such a case is the other Clans once they start butting heads toward the center of the Inner Sphere.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Play the invasion scenarios with the current infantry and vehicles rules and the Clans still don't have enough.

The IS would fight even dirtier...and the Clans still wouldn't learn.

[massey]

Play the invasion scenarios with the current infantry and vehicles rules and the Clans still don't have enough.

The IS would fight even dirtier...and the Clans still wouldn't learn.

In a "realistic" invasion, the Clans would abuse their aerospace fighter advantage, as well as tactical orbital bombardment from warships.  They don't have to lay waste to a city, they'd just bomb non-Battlemech forces out of existence.  Those aren't "honorable" opponents worthy of Zellbrigen duels.  Those are just rabble, best to get them out of the way so that the mechs can fight each other like they're supposed to.

I'm also of the opinion that the Loki is a fantastic mech, but that it's primary reason for existing is that in half an hour, it can be a Diet Naga.  Imagine the artillery support most Clans could bring if they slapped two Arrow IVs on every Hellbringer they had.  That's how the Clans take their ball and go home when the Inner Sphere refuses to "play right".

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

In a "realistic" invasion, the Clans would abuse their aerospace fighter advantage, as well as tactical orbital bombardment from warships.  They don't have to lay waste to a city, they'd just bomb non-Battlemech forces out of existence.  Those aren't "honorable" opponents worthy of Zellbrigen duels.  Those are just rabble, best to get them out of the way so that the mechs can fight each other like they're supposed to.

  If the IS had "realistic" forces, no warship would survive long enough to bombard. Everyb IS planet has the capability of building orbital defenses with weapons larger than any warship could carry, but that would end warfare and the piddly raids the BTU is based upon.
  "Realistic" ground forces would have every world with more infantry than the Clans have people...more infantry than the Clans have bullets and bombs to kill. They'd be making supply runs for bullets alone...and still won't have enough.

  I've played Clan campaigns for decades. The Clans never have enough Elementals to hold planets and maintain an offensive. Once the IS players learned to kill off Clan infantry, cities could not be taken and planets could not be held.
  The Clans are a subsistence economy -They HAVE to attack each other to survive, even without being at war.

  If IS militaries were "realistic" and more than just a tiny fraction of planetary populations, the whole of the Clans would be hard pressed to take one IS world.

[Toucan]

This is an interesting concept - there are some clans that I think, as a main invader, could have had a very different impact on the IS.

• Clan Goliath Scorpion: Warrior/archaeologists who use the lessons of the past to their advantage. Excellent pilots, but hampered by outdated gear.
• Clan Diamond Shark: The best gear and logistics of all the clans - if only their current leadership was imaginative enough to use it to the fullest.
• Clan Snow Raven: Incredible political savvy meets total aerospace superiority. This is also their weakness.

[li]
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[Orwell84]

An interesting idea, one I've wondered about since reading the short fiction intro to OTP:Revival Trials. Glad somebody's giving it a go.

Clan Smoke Jaguar: grab the enemy by the throat and squeeze until dead. If the Spheroid freebirths won't play by the rules, take off and nuke the site from orbit.

Clan Coyote: hitting em hard but honorably with a heavy-weight fist. Also secretly run by scientists.

Clan Nova Cat: following their dreams and fire-visions. Excel at low-altitude combat drops and meeting unexpected tactics with their own surprises.

Clan Burrock: Sly and shifty, both on the battlefield and off. Could make use of the yakuza, tongs and other newly-inducted Dark Caste to smooth things over on occupied worlds.

As far as pairings go, I'd put two long-term allies or at least neutral Clans together (rather than deliberately sabotaging the invasion as Ulric did). With that in mind...

• Wolf and Coyote (the Kerensky-Kufahl pack uber alles)
• Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguar (they were quite chummy at this point)
• Diamond Shark and Nova Cat (oft-times commercial partners)
• Cloud Cobra and Burrock (worked together at various times)
• Ghost Bear and Snow Raven (complementary toumans, long-time allies)
• Fire Mandrill and Blood Spirit (who else will either Clan work with?)
• Hell's Horses and Star Adder (two fairly pragmatic Clans; also best suited for fighting Spheroids between the Horse conventional forces and Adder OpFor Galaxy)
• Ice Hellion and Steel Viper (both favor swiftness and don't play well with others)
• Goliath Scorpion - pragmatic and neutral enough to work with anybody really, perhaps could substitute for either Vipers or Hellions in the entry above

[massey]

  If the IS had "realistic" forces, no warship would survive long enough to bombard. Everyb IS planet has the capability of building orbital defenses with weapons larger than any warship could carry, but that would end warfare and the piddly raids the BTU is based upon.
  "Realistic" ground forces would have every world with more infantry than the Clans have people...more infantry than the Clans have bullets and bombs to kill. They'd be making supply runs for bullets alone...and still won't have enough.

  I've played Clan campaigns for decades. The Clans never have enough Elementals to hold planets and maintain an offensive. Once the IS players learned to kill off Clan infantry, cities could not be taken and planets could not be held.
  The Clans are a subsistence economy -They HAVE to attack each other to survive, even without being at war.

  If IS militaries were "realistic" and more than just a tiny fraction of planetary populations, the whole of the Clans would be hard pressed to take one IS world.

You can't apply one set of logic to Inner Sphere battles up to the Invasion, and then change and apply different logic to the Clans.  If the Inner Sphere forces have been able to take and hold planets for centuries using only a mech company or battalion, then the same needs to hold true for the Clans.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

You can't apply one set of logic to Inner Sphere battles up to the Invasion, and then change and apply different logic to the Clans.  If the Inner Sphere forces have been able to take and hold planets for centuries using only a mech company or battalion, then the same needs to hold true for the Clans.

  The "What if the Clans weren't stupid?" question appears on a regular basis, usually to refight the invasion that they couldn't win on their own rules. You may as well ask how any IS faction would fair if they had Clan technology while the others didn't. 

[massey]

  The "What if the Clans weren't stupid?" question appears on a regular basis, usually to refight the invasion that they couldn't win on their own rules. You may as well ask how any IS faction would fair if they had Clan technology while the others didn't.

The Clans as presented in the early 90s, with the rules in place at the time and the state of the Inner Sphere, were only stopped by writer fiat.  They were intended to be a terrible threat to the safety of the entire Inner Sphere.  Every character in the novels who knew about the Clans said as much.  Since the title of this thread is "3050-3052 Clan Advantages vs Inner Sphere", it appears that's the version of the Clans we're talking about.

Now since then, there have been a few rules changes to toughen up infantry and vehicles, and a few to downgrade aerospace fighters.  There's also been a decision to neuter the Clans and move on to other threats and factions.  Some of the retcons even seem to make people think the Clans were never actually a threat.

But that's a problem with the retcon, not the Invasion as initially presented.  If you've got a problem, it's with whoever decided to give Clan population figures that are lower than that of modern day nations.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Since the title of this thread is "3050-3052 Clan Advantages vs Inner Sphere", it appears that's the version of the Clans we're talking about.

  The current rules apply to all BTU eras, which changes the dynamics of warfare and scenarios. If the OP included "using 1990's rules" I might agree but the BTU universe has evolved from the Mad Max era of the 1980s, as well, where a lance of mechs could conquer a world. Going back to the BTU of the 1980s, battles without UAVs, tight-beam laser transmission, cell phones and other modern tools are unthinkable. If a player could justify a technology that should exist in the game and define parameters, I have no problem with its incorporation.

  Writer fiat is sometimes all we could go on, regarding Clan behavior -Clan Smoke Jaguar was prone to horrendous blunders and errors in judgement.
  An example with the Battle of Luthien, where the appearance of two huge units, unaccounted for in the bidding process, would have allowed them to revise their bids or revisit the bidding process, and the way they fought against two mercenary units with the same honor standards allotted to IS regulars. Their inevitable defeat was a conscious choice.
A second example was the battle for Huntress, where the Jags scraped for units to fight the invading IS forces, even though they possessed warehouses filled with off the production line omnis that were earmarked for units that no longer existed. Again, CSJ chose the terms of their defeat. These are the most glaring strategic faults which manifested in the other Clan factions to one extent or another, so proposing that "What if the Clans weren't the Clans?" is a silly question.

[Sjhernan3060]

An interesting idea, one I've wondered about since reading the short fiction intro to OTP:Revival Trials. Glad somebody's giving it a go.

Clan Smoke Jaguar: grab the enemy by the throat and squeeze until dead. If the Spheroid freebirths won't play by the rules, take off and nuke the site from orbit.

Clan Coyote: hitting em hard but honorably with a heavy-weight fist. Also secretly run by scientists.

Clan Nova Cat: following their dreams and fire-visions. Excel at low-altitude combat drops and meeting unexpected tactics with their own surprises.

Clan Burrock: Sly and shifty, both on the battlefield and off. Could make use of the yakuza, tongs and other newly-inducted Dark Caste to smooth things over on occupied worlds.

As far as pairings go, I'd put two long-term allies or at least neutral Clans together (rather than deliberately sabotaging the invasion as Ulric did). With that in mind...

• Wolf and Coyote (the Kerensky-Kufahl pack uber alles)
• Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguar (they were quite chummy at this point)
• Diamond Shark and Nova Cat (oft-times commercial partners)
• Cloud Cobra and Burrock (worked together at various times)
• Ghost Bear and Snow Raven (complementary toumans, long-time allies)
• Fire Mandrill and Blood Spirit (who else will either Clan work with?)
• Hell's Horses and Star Adder (two fairly pragmatic Clans; also best suited for fighting Spheroids between the Horse conventional forces and Adder OpFor Galaxy)
• Ice Hellion and Steel Viper (both favor swiftness and don't play well with others)
• Goliath Scorpion - pragmatic and neutral enough to work with anybody really, perhaps could substitute for either Vipers or Hellions in the entry above

Call me crazy but I think the spirits could have shined in the invasion their defense mindset would have made them ideal garrison or flank protectors

[Hellraiser]

Honestly you don't even need "realistic" military sizes.

You just need the hidden units that are never mentioned in a Field Manual.

And you need to look at the clans v/s a "whole of the IS level".

Sure they crush a regiment with their cluster.

But how many clusters are there?

Break this down.

How many Clan Mechs v/s IS Mechs if the whole of the IS is included?

How many regiments of PUGS,  How many single Squadrons/Wings of Planetary Defense Light Fighter Wings?  Conventional Wings?

If each Planetary Militia in the IS can just call on a single Striker Lance of a Pixie & 3 Bugs, how many added Mechs is that?

Sure Nation Capitals can call on a couple Militia Mech regiments, but some worlds have 0-4 mechs total.   Some others have a few companies or 2 Battalions (Muphrid) even a Regiment (WoodStock)

But lets call it an "average" of 1 Light Lance.   2000 worlds in the IS/Periphery?   8000 Added Mechs?

The reason the clans did so well is they attacked by surprise & had a local advantage of a Warship & plenty of assets in orbit.

But what happens if its the IS that is on the Offense & moves all their units to a single clan world?  Oh wait, we have Bulldog & Serpent to show what happens.


Just look at the canon battles from WCSB, most of them are running assaults that overrun some small portion of the garrison for a localized 2-1 fight where the Clan Tech & Skill equalizes that small advantage.  But assemble an entire planet of defenses into a single battlefield & you won't get those results.

A McKenna is a truly brutal warship, but the Clan's have 1/2 dozen of them.   The ASF for each Capital World of the IS will wipe out a single McKenna & there are 5 major & several minor capitals.

Surprise, Local Superiority, Lack if IS Intel on them, and an Early Tech advantage........ That is what won the clans those fights.

Once those are removed then you suddenly have far more equal fights where attrition leaves the small clan touman wiped out.

[Colt Ward]

You guys are drifting a bit from the OP's request- we can discuss how the Clans fight some of the original invasion battles, I always use Icar b/c I set it up for a MM campaign, but even with the changes the Clans can still win b/c they are NOT fighting the grinding fight the IS is geared for fighting.  BV balancing, the invading clusters were Elite or Veteran and they match up against a regiment in the initial waves . . . once it gets to later waves and the elite regiments were shifted, it would be 2 clusters vs a elite regiment/RCT.  One other funny thing . . . all those complaints about the Gargoyle Prime being the Prime b/c it was the most numerous?  Well its a great way to deal with conventional forces . . . along with Nagas.

Anyway, you threw out a few but here are some other more obscure . . .

Goliath Scorpions- top down control, does knight errants and drugs- good theoretical handle on SL doctrine?
Cloud Cobras-  AeroFighter dominance with religious orders, heavy on reserve warriors
Hell's Horses-  Its the warrior, not the equipment- combined arms rule the day
Fire Mandrills-  IMO a non-starter, they should be called 'Clan Herding Cats' . . . if they had a invasion front it would turn out to be a mess
Burrock-  Decent fighters, really pragmatic . . . good at covert operations

[massey]

You guys are drifting a bit from the OP's request- we can discuss how the Clans fight some of the original invasion battles, I always use Icar b/c I set it up for a MM campaign, but even with the changes the Clans can still win b/c they are NOT fighting the grinding fight the IS is geared for fighting.  BV balancing, the invading clusters were Elite or Veteran and they match up against a regiment in the initial waves . . . once it gets to later waves and the elite regiments were shifted, it would be 2 clusters vs a elite regiment/RCT.  One other funny thing . . . all those complaints about the Gargoyle Prime being the Prime b/c it was the most numerous?  Well its a great way to deal with conventional forces . . . along with Nagas.

Anyway, you threw out a few but here are some other more obscure . . .

Goliath Scorpions- top down control, does knight errants and drugs- good theoretical handle on SL doctrine?
Cloud Cobras-  AeroFighter dominance with religious orders, heavy on reserve warriors
Hell's Horses-  Its the warrior, not the equipment- combined arms rule the day
Fire Mandrills-  IMO a non-starter, they should be called 'Clan Herding Cats' . . . if they had a invasion front it would turn out to be a mess
Burrock-  Decent fighters, really pragmatic . . . good at covert operations

Nagas are bad ass mofos.  On a large map they're just brutally effective, especially against conventional forces.  The fact that they've got a 5/8 mech movement profile means that they're mobile as hell. 

[Starfury]

Blood Spirit-Heavy use and focus on zellbrigen.  Their traditional focus of Mech, Elemental and Vehicle organization makes them more flexible in ground attacks, but they lack the access to Ommimechs that so confounded the IS.  Aerospace fighters are served up on at the Galaxy level, and then donated out as needed. I suspect their aerospace groups are bid away first.  Great but inflexible warriors when it comes to dealing with non Clan tactics. 

Of course, ironically their use of second line Clan mechs instead of the stock Omni configs makes their tech units more powerful...

[Starfury]

Ice Helions-Speed is life.  I can see the Hellions being a horror to deal with for many IS forces since your average IS force tends towards medium/heavy units.  The Hellions would be great on the attack, but if you can prevent them from making breakthroughs, then they lose their momentum and suffer defeat. 

[Colt Ward]

Hm . . . would a Blood Spirit cluster do better against a FedCom regiment than a Falcon cluster?  Both would be rigid adherents of zell, but the strict following of the original cluster organization given them by Kerensky would increase the combat power on the ground . . .

It would be-
Omni Trinary- Lupus, Coyotl, Stooping Hawk, and others preferably with a SFE
2 standard mech trinaries-  Lols here, the IS gets to face masses of Blood Kites
Elemental Trinary- with some form of transport
Vehicle Trinary-  30 ground vehicles/VTOLs, likely a good mix of the SLDF vintage and better Clan designs.  A point or two of Hui/Thor/Chapparal/Snipers?

Clan armor & Elementals facing a FedCom armor formation, I am going to have to play that out- can the superior weapons of the Clans make up for the crap skills against reg/vet IS vehicle crews?

Though after the Hell's Horses, the Blood Spirits are one of two Clans I do not feel deserve the Clan vehicle crew penalty because they are in the frontline formations.

[Starfury]

Now as for defeating the Clans, superior numbers, trickery, guerilla tactics, short range engagements in restrictive terrain, assaults on ammo depots, and extended campaigns are how you beat them. Wolcott, Pandora, Luthien, the planet the Black Omen merc group was on when they fought the Ghost Bears, Twycross, and Tukkayid all show that.

[Starfury]

Assuming neither side has air superiority, the Blood Spirits would do better in Mech on Mech fights against FedCom, but they have more resource issues then the Falcons given how small of a Clan they are. They would also be more heavily dependent on vehicle transports for Elementals due to a lack of magnetic clamp technology.  Anything that would be a long campaign would be a pain for them.  I agree that Blood Spirit vehicle crews should have the same piloting and gunnery abilities as their 'Mech pilots.

[Colt Ward]

Not really, the Spirits already stream line their logistics . . . their signature designs have ERLLs, LRM15s and SRM4s- but basically what you find on the Blood Kite.  All due to one of their founding Khan's instructions that allow them to field a 'cheaper' military.

Also, forget the Coyotl, it has a XL.

[Daryk]

Speedy designs with ERLL will win against the IS all day long.  At least if you use rolling map boards...

[Starfury]

The Blood Spirits would make heavy use of the Black Hawk, the Kingfisher, the Stooping Hawk, the Battle Cobra and the Crossbow as mainline Omnis.  I can see the Koshi as a mainline light since it's pretty cheap even with the XL and it has decent scout/weapon capabilities.  The more expensive Omnis would be either in elite units or as command mechs. 

[Hellraiser]

Speedy designs with ERLL will win against the IS all day long.  At least if you use rolling map boards...

In a game of Tag maybe.

That ERLL won't do much if the IS mech just ducks behind a hill or calls in Artillery to deal w/ something 1/2 a mile away instead of chasing it.

[Daryk]

Artillery requires you to know where the enemy will be.  And you can only duck behind cover so much.  If nothing else, then the clan 'mech is pinning down something.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Speedy designs with ERLL will win against the IS all day long.  At least if you use rolling map boards...

  It has already been established that the Clans, as written, have a habit of throwing away their tech edge. Again, the argument seems to center around "What if the Clans had their tech but weren't the Clans?"

  The answer: They'd be a tiny IS faction with a temporary tech edge.

[Colt Ward]

Eh, not all Clans were the Smoke Jaguars . . .

Even in early invasion materials like the original WCSB they never said the Clans defeated every military force on planet.  At least among the Wolves, as in my mentioned Icar example, they smashed through the main resistance and then went for the objective- such as capturing the capital or defenders HQ to force them to surrender the world.  While it usually meant that most of the defending mechs were taken out, survivors did flee the battlefield (and caused problems) and very likely meant the majority of the conventional forces were never involved.  On Icar 25 mechs and 100 Elementals defeated a merc mech regiment and supported armored brigade (3rd Icar?  did that mean another 2 were on planet but not involved?) which very likely did not have the whole brigade involved.  Wolf forces smashed a battalion at the LZ, punched through or flanked a blocking position to push the defenders out, and seized the capital & merc's DS to force the surrender . . . which still could have left significant numbers of armor in the field since they could not have kept up with the Wolf advance.

Btw Hellraiser . . . as a Wolf commander during the Invasion . . . I am ok with you ducking to shelter in place from my ranged weapons.  I can either bypass your little hole in the ground to capture the objective to win the Trial or since you cannot see me to shoot out send in the Elementals to flush the remnants out..

Re-fighting any Invasion battle is difficult, b/c unless you are facing a 'new' player who learned on 3025 and never advanced the IS player is going to know the analysed weaknesses for the Clans.

[massey]

The Jaguars viewed the Inner Sphere with contempt.  Their goal was to Rambo their way through all opposition and kill them with pure concentrated hate.  This led to some pretty stupid moves on their part.

The other Clans didn’t display the same level of malevolence.  Even the Jade Falcons, the other violent Crusader Clan, viewed the IS as a realm to be conquered, not a people to be annihilated.

The Clans has three big limitations during the invasion.  First, they would often underestimate new opponents.  This was particularly true with the ComGuards.  And since the Clans routinely chewed through unit after unit, they were frequently encountering new opponents.  Second, they were susceptible to dirty tricks.  They were raised on the Clan way of fighting, and so an underhanded scheme they hadn’t seen before would often work — the first time.  Third, Clan honor would often prove too great a temptation.  Remember, the purpose isn’t to give the other guy a fair shot.  The purpose is to prevent your neighbor from stealing your kills.  Clan warriors were looking to earn themselves a line or two in The Remembrance, basically the Clan Bible.  The hardcore Crusaders has visions of “and then Star Captain Dave killed 8 Inner Sphere mechs all by himself” dancing in their heads.  The Clan way encourages extreme competition with your fellow warriors.

These things were just enough to give the Inner Sphere the breathing room it needed to throw everything at the Clans all at once.  They still couldn’t stop them, they only slowed the Clan advance until ComStar stepped in.  And that’s only against 4 Clans plus two latecomers.  Add in an extra 11 and it’s game over for the Inner Sphere.